TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: My gosh. How are you?

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: Oh, you look nice.

THERAPIST: Thanks.

CLIENT: So Monday was bad. I don't know what happened. We went to Vancouver (ph), which was really nice. I'm glad I went. Got back... I mean, I was very tired. Like I didn't sleep the whole night before we went. I don't sleep well before I'm going to travel. I get kind of antsy. I don't know. I got back and then I slept. But then on Monday, for whatever reason, I don't know if it was a combination of being really tired or, I don't know what it was, but I like... I kind of slept the whole day. I suddenly just... Something. The bottom fell out or something. I was just exhausted. [00:00:57]

And then I got up and I left the house and all that but... (PAUSE) I don't know, man. I was in a dark place all day Monday. I was really just very depressed and...

THERAPIST: So down too. Not just sleeping.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Just... And then the weird thing was then I got up... My hip joint kind of was achy and just this weird... Do I still have it? Kind of. No, not really. I had this very tender spot right here. When I would press it, it would hurt. I was like, "What?" It was just... It was a weird day. It was a very weird day. I just felt very like dark and gloomy. And I don't know if it was that we went to Vancouver and I loved it there so much, if it triggered feelings of like (PAUSE) you know...

THERAPIST: Oh. [00:01:55]

CLIENT: Just like what... (PAUSE) I don't really want to live here, I think like twelve months out of the year, year in year out. You know? I just... I think once you get out of the states, if you're lucky enough to either have traveled a lot or lived other places, you just... I mean, there are problems everywhere but the fact is objectively, generally speaking, people are living better than we are in other places. And... (PAUSE) You know, we went to this little town... And all three of us felt that way. We were just like... These people, they don't seem rich at all but there's something. People... They just seem... Not all. Obviously, they have fucking problems. But you know what I... In general, there was just an atmosphere that we just don't have here. You know? [00:03:01]

That's kind of depressing, you know? I don't know if that triggered something (PAUSE) or if I just was very tired. The more you sleep during the day, the more you tend to, to me at least, it's a bit...

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:03:21)

CLIENT: Yeah, it makes you kind of depressed. (PAUSE) I don't know. But...

THERAPIST: When you go there and it's a kind of beautiful vacation and different space and different parts of yourself and then you come back to reality.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, that's part of it too, I think. Yeah, no, definitely. I think it's all these different things. And the funny thing was Vancouver is not like that beautiful. I mean, it wasn't some idealistic... I don't know. Have you been to Vancouver?

THERAPIST: Mm hmm. [00:04:03]

CLIENT: Yeah. So you know what I mean. I mean, like parts of it are very quaint and all that. Yeah. Whatever. It's more... Yeah. It was more... (PAUSE) It just is what it is. It's a very European flavored place and it shows it. You know? There's just a certain atmosphere to it. So it wasn't like... Yeah. It wasn't some unrealistic thing like, oh, everyone here has some perfect life (LAUGHTER) But I think you're right. There was... (PAUSE) I don't know. It's just very... Some of it was what you said and some of it is just, I think, me and I think people like me... I have friends like this too. We're just realizing something's not... We're just not comfortable here. Something's... This isn't our place, you know? And that's hard to swallow. Because then it makes you... Because I also know if I moved to Vancouver it'd be awesome for like a month, two months and then I'd be like, "Alright. Now what?" [00:05:07]

And so I think what's starting to happen is and some of my older Assyrian friends have told me, "Yeah, get used to it. That is the feeling," which is that you start feeling like you don't belong anywhere kind of, that you just have to make do as best as you can and decide, as best as you can, what works for you.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I think I've been saying to you from the (inaudible at 00:05:37) old feeling inside you that does value wherever you go.

CLIENT: Right, right. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And that's what I meant by it's not so much the actually aesthetic beauty but the idea of the other place where I wouldn't feel this.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:06:05]

THERAPIST: That's a fantasy. And you just said yourself, "I get there. In two months, I feel like, well, now what? What am I going to do for a living here and how is this..."

CLIENT: Well, that's why I've come up with a new plan. Because, I mean, that's not going to go away. I really don't think it's going to go away because part of it's also just my... I think I'm a restless person. That also could be from a childhood thing, whatever... But I think, in general, I love to travel. I actually enjoy, you know... I would love to be there for two months...

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: ...and just kind of experience the city and whatever. So I think... This is what I realized. I came back. (PAUSE) I think it's going to have to be three things. One... So yesterday, or I think it was Monday night I wrote to him but... So I got in touch with Walter (ph) at London about my PhD. I'm going to finish that. [00:07:01]

It was very, really nice...

THERAPIST: Who is Walter?

CLIENT: Walter took over for me.

THERAPIST: Oh okay.

CLIENT: Walter is the kind of guy. Like we're basically the same age and he was in the PhD program. Remember I was saying the differences? He has more books than I do.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: So, you know, he got the...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And that's... I mean, he's a great guy. So it's not like a weird thing. But he was like, "It's so good to hear from you. Absolutely." He's like, "Let's do it." So we're going to figure out a way.

THERAPIST: That's great.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think that that's going to get done. And, you know what? It's really not that long. It's... I was doing the page count. But it doesn't have to be more than like 80 pages (PAUSE) other than my creative...

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: But that part's... We're pretty much done anyway. I mean...

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: So that's... It's just got to get done. So that's one. Two, this reverse mortgage thing has to get done so we can somehow, if we're not going to sell the house, then at least use the equity to buy a condo, just do something to jumpstart that situation. [00:08:17]

What was the third? (PAUSE) Oh, and get my, at least my book of poetry. I think these things then will allow me to, you know, for example go abroad for a year. I think that's where my life's headed, I think. That's the sense I'm getting, that I need to be mobile, you know, like rooted but, rooted here but mobile. You know? And I think the way to get, the only way to get that shit done is make sure things are okay here with the house and kind of making sure the money's in, you know, both for my mom and for myself, the PhD and another book. [00:09:11]

Then there's really... I mean, I'm already doing a lot of that even without the PhD. (LAUGHTER) So imagine if I could... You know, once those things get done, a lot of, even more doors are going to open.

THERAPIST: Absolutely.

CLIENT: So there's just no other way. Those are the things I've got to get done.

THERAPIST: A PhD really is (inaudible at 00:09:35)

CLIENT: Yes, yes, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:09:45)

CLIENT: No. I mean, it's not annoying. I would have even stayed there and finished it. It's just, you know, it's a money thing. And I don't even know how I'm going to, you know... I have so much on my mind. I have so much... It's not going to be easy. But there's... It's going to get done. [00:10:01]

I think I'm going to simplify the thesis. Fuck this Assyrian bullshit. Modernism, trauma, WWI, poetry... Even if I was to do Assyrian stuff, I'll do like Assyrian Americans or something, just something easy that I can just be done. You know? So, yeah. (PAUSE) Yeah. No, Walter was great. He was like, "You were here two years. Remind me. Like did you pay for those two years? What happened those two years?" Which I did. So I don't know. I think what he's thinking is maybe we can even for now by e-mail, just I can send him every so often what I'm writing. You know, let's just do it and figure it out.

THERAPIST: And he'd be your advisor.

CLIENT: Yeah. He's my advisor because he took over. Yep. [00:10:59]

And it's great because we get each other. He's a very nice guy. And we're both kind of outsiders. You know? He's the tall, black guy in the middle of London and I'm this American writing Assyrian thing. You know, like, so we get each other.

THERAPIST: And you're done with classes or...

CLIENT: I'm done with classes. There were some like papers I handed in they might want me to rewrite or I didn't hand in. But the classes are... I mean, whatever those papers are would just get rolled into the dissertation anyway. What those papers were was just a way... So basically, we were writing, what was it, like two essays a month? No. I'm sorry. One essay per semester, I think. So one, two, three, four, two years of coursework. Those are like supposed to be kind of like, you're kind of writing your dissertation as you're... [00:12:01]

So... Because they weren't classes. You know what I mean? It's not like here where it's you miss that fifteen page paper that was due about Melville. They're seminars where we just say around with big reading lists and then at the end we had this essay... So...

THERAPIST: But did... I guess the question is did that, does it have to be rewritten or handed in in order to get a grade or get a pass for those classes separately from your dissertation?

CLIENT: I'm going to find out.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Let's say it is. Even if it is, well, I'm going to start writing anyway.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I'll just hand in whatever, you know... From what I remember, they're like eight page papers or ten page papers. I don't know. They're not like, you know... And I think Walter is amenable to... I mean, he's in charge. So we'll figure something out. The important thing for me was that he was just so receptive and warm. He's like, "It's so good to hear from you." So that's kind of good. [00:13:03]

And I think I can still reach out to Jason (ph) and just be like, "Hey, Jason, I'm doing this, you know, finally getting it done." You know, so like at least it's still like a team... He's like on my team even though he's not technically. You know? (PAUSE) I don't know, man. Because you know what the other thing is? I'm totally not looking forward to the holidays. I've never more not looked forward to the holidays. The other thing is when, you know, going to... I'm kind of done at least with my mom's side of the family I think. Like I'm done... (PAUSE) I'm not like excommunicating myself from them. But I just like... I don't want to sit there at Thanksgiving at my uncle's house, their McMansion while they all just go on, while he and my other uncle just go on and on about Obama, whatever, taxes, whatever the fuck they talk about or, like, you know, foreign policy, you know, like... [00:14:07]

I'm just done. You know, like I kind of... I can't... It's become very personal for me. You know? I can't take it anymore. And more and more I'm like, "Why am I here?" There are many countries in the world that have a very humanist or at least a much more humanist... I mean, even the EU... They've got some fucking shit too. But people there are more awake and even their most right wing people would never dismantle national health care. You know what I mean? Like... So I just can't take it anymore. It's like, "Dude. You're sitting in your McMansion and you're being a fucking douchebag. Like what do you care if fast food workers make fifteen bucks and hour? Really? Like that's where we've gotten in this country? Who cares? Who cares? Someone wants to pay them fifteen bucks an hour? Is that so awful?" [00:14:57]

"Well, how are all the... That's going to affect those businesses. What are they going to do? How are they going to pay?" I just... I don't know. Something about that is making me crazy. (LAUGHTER) And I can feel it about myself and I don't like that. Like it's making me very wound up and... You know? So and there's no answer to that. That's what this country is now. So you've got to find ways around that and a way to do that is to have a plan for yourself. You know? (PAUSE) (SIGH)

(PAUSE) [00:16:00]

And I think, you know, this might be part of what's going on with, you know, the women, girl situation. I'm both really lonely and I'm almost obsessively... Excuse me. Like, why don't I just have a girlfriend? But I think this is partly why. I think a part of me is already gone. You know, like a part of you already checks out. A part of me is already like, "I need to get things in order so I can get the fuck out of here." Well, if you feel that way, what happens is even if you meet like Jill (ph) or whatever, there's always something happens. Like who's going to drive to New Jersey or is this girl going to want to travel with me to Berlin when the time comes? Like I wonder if that's also part of why I get so confused about the because I just, I don't know. Part of me doesn't want to be here or at least doesn't want to... [00:17:01]

I do want... I mean, I love Darien. I do want to be here but I want to be able to come and go so that way, when I am here, I'm happy and I'm refreshed and I'm... I remember all the things I love about Darien and all that. Does that make sense?

THERAPIST: Well... It sounds like you're saying you are trying to find a life that feels like it works for you because...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...it's yours and that you feel comfortable in.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: That might include a lot of travel...

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: ...or might include even not living in Darien ultimately, partly visiting but not living here.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: If it doesn't... It isn't a fit for the kind of culture that feels like you're at home.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And so, as that's in the mix of trying to find what that is and then going after it, it does make sense that the idea of a person who would want you to settle here sort of permanently. It doesn't fit yet in the picture.

CLIENT: Right. [00:18:03]

THERAPIST: You don't know if that's what you want.

CLIENT: Right. (PAUSE) Add to that, I've got an office that I'm paying rent on that I'm trying not to get worked up about. But that's also weighing on me. Like, what am I doing? Am I... I'm very confused now about that. I'm not upset that I have the... I mean (PAUSE) I still think that you've just got to go for things that are making sense and still does make sense. I just don't know how it fits into any of this. You know?

THERAPIST: Wanting to travel.

CLIENT: Wanting to travel or like even the PhD. You know, I'm unemployed. I'm trying to finish this PhD. Like I... [00:19:05]

You know, I feel like a business takes up all of your time if you want it to succeed.

THERAPIST: Just like getting it off the ground.

CLIENT: Getting it off the ground and it's already pretty depressing to... At this point, I don't even know how to... I'm confused now how to get one client. Like I'm just... I think I'm just overwhelmed. So... I don't know what to do about that. I still think overall, it's a great idea. I just... Not to mention, you kind of feel stupid too, like when you feel really down, like how could I possibly coach somebody? I'm in such a weird... You know? Although, obviously therapists (LAUGHTER) get down and depressed or whatever. They still do their jobs. But... I'm a bit at a loss with that side of things. I just don't know. I don't know how to get a client. I don't know what I should be doing. [00:20:03]

THERAPIST: I think you rethink it at all about after thinking about the PhD and traveling sooner rather than later?

CLIENT: It does make me rethink it but I also haven't like let go of that fact that it's a great idea. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Well, it could be a great idea but also you might decide it's not the right time or...

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: But you might not. You might... "Actually, I've got a few clients going that would support my PhD right now," or something.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess I'm not sure. Maybe things will be more clear the more I talk to Walter about like, "So how would this work?"

THERAPIST: Mm hmm. Yep.

CLIENT: I don't know. I'm... (PAUSE) You know, part of me's like, you know, just talk to Lisa (ph) and be like, "You know what? This was not the right time for me and I just I..." You know? "You've got to replace me." You know? [00:21:01]

Not give up on the life coaching but just give up on the office, maybe. That would really bum me out because it feels like you're not seeing something through. But...

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: It's hard and the reality is it's a tremendous amount of work even when people are graduating with contacts...

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: ...and supervisors who are going to refer to them and colleagues who are going to refer to them.

CLIENT: Right, right, right. It's hard.

THERAPIST: You're starting totally from scratch...

CLIENT: That's right.

THERAPIST: ...without any connections yet but a few in friends. But I think it's hard when you come out with a whole history of people who know you and who are going to refer to you.

CLIENT: Yes. Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: It can take a long time.

CLIENT: I mean, I guess there are things I could do that I haven't done yet.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean, for example, free sessions and this just to kind of get going. So that's the other thing. I feel like it's... Without having truly tried...

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:22:01]

CLIENT: ...it seems a little early to just be like, "Eh, forget it."

THERAPIST: Unless you know that you'd actually, it isn't what you want to pursue. That's a different thing. This wasn't, "I'm changing my..."

CLIENT: Well, see that's hard for me to know. I think it's hard for artists to... Of course, I'd rather not. I just want to write and do my music.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But that's what we've talked about. If there's a way to make money, that feels good. That feels like, yeah, this is part of me, you know, whatever. Which overall this is the closest thing I've found to that. So no, no, it's not like I don't want to do it. I'm just starting to get that feeling of, well, I'm paying rent... Like just the practicality of it, month to month is feeling kind of... I just don't know. I don't know. But I'm just reminding myself that it's been like two months or whatever. Of course, I mean, even if I was focusing all my energies on it, it would still be this. [00:22:59]

It's not like I'd have ten clients right now. These things take years. So I'm trying not to get too...

THERAPIST: You're also reminding yourself of things you could be doing that you haven't done yet.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: So that...

CLIENT: For the business.

(CROSSTALK)

CLIENT: At least, then I could say, "You know what? I tried different marketing things. I gave free sessions. I... And it just didn't lead anywhere." And, you know, I've got to now decide how seriously I want to take this thing. (PAUSE) I don't know. It's just... It's a lot.

THERAPIST: Will meeting with another life coach...

CLIENT: To talk about, yeah, what I'm doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Have they gotten started getting...

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:23:57]

Yeah it also throws a wrench into the works of the masters degree. You know? I guess I still could. But now you're talking... (PAUSE) You know, that's a commitment. That program is two years. You know, that's... You're not going...

THERAPIST: A lot of money.

CLIENT: A lot of money and you're not going anywhere. You know, that's you're... You've got to focus. So that... I don't know how realistic that is. I think I might... (PAUSE) The Boston College (ph) one then becomes more of an option. It's online. I'd have to be more disciplined. But it's a way to kind of...

THERAPIST: Well, you could do it from...

CLIENT: Yeah. I can always do it. You know what I mean? Where ever I am or whatever. I don't know. But then, even then, you have to ask yourself if the plan is to be able to come and go, what's that... [00:25:01]

THERAPIST: You can't really start a practice (ph).

CLIENT: Right. So I... Yeah, yeah. No, I think that... That's why I came up with this. The pertinent things are, you know, just financially and the PhD and my book. And I think those have to be the priorities.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: In a way, the whole reason you started with life coaching was trying to think of an income source that would support your continuing as an artist.

CLIENT: Yes, yes.

THERAPIST: It started to feel like maybe it could become more of a main kind of thing.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: But I think you're saying you're refinding that actually, being an artist is it.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah. No, I am saying that. It's just I've said that before. I mean, you've got to make money. [00:26:01]

THERAPIST: Yes. So that brings me back to the question, is that the best way of making money to support being an artist or not? Are there other option?

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. I mean, the only other way is doing what, you know, working shit jobs just that are jobs. There's no like... There's a difference between work and a job. Right? I just need money so I'm going to be a bartender. Done. That's not me. I know that that's not me. So...

THERAPIST: How about tutoring?

CLIENT: Yeah. Tutor... You know, I've been trying. Still no bites. Yeah, yeah. Tutoring...

THERAPIST: Tutoring, you wouldn't have to go pay for a $50,000 degree.

CLIENT: Exactly. No, tutoring is quick money.

THERAPIST: You could have total history of your set experience right now.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, it's quick money and I've been trying... Again, things are so topsy turvy that it's just harder. [00:27:05]

It's like you have little punks offering for fifteen bucks and hour. It's like, I'm not going to charge twenty bucks an hour. I'm not going to do that. We're just giving everything away for free. You know? But then it's hard to attract because, yeah, I'm sure if I was a Chinese girl... It's like, "I just want to learn English. Fifty bucks, sixty bucks..." It's harder to attract and train to retain... It'll happen but everything is just really slow now. It's just... I mean... I think we're... For people out of work or between whatever, it really tests your patience. This is very... I've never experienced anything like this. But, yes, tutoring once it got going, absolutely, it'd be at least an easy source of income. [00:28:01]

THERAPIST: But even that is whether or not to focus your efforts of life coaching versus tutoring. Those are... That's a very much very different markets and strategies. So figuring out which makes more sense.

CLIENT: Tutoring makes sense for pocket money.

THERAPIST: It might not even be one of those. It could be something else.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Tutoring... I just cannot, for whatever reason, I don't want to fully commit to like a tutoring business. You know, I wanted to be part of the idea I had of (inaudible at 00:28:43) and I think think that's great. I just think it's all a lot. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Isn't it though... (PAUSE) (inaudible at 00:28:51) you're thinking about traveling, that that's the goal, life coaching doesn't fit. Right?

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:28:59]

THERAPIST: Unless you're thinking you're going to do it on the phone but that's even harder if you're going to be in Europe.

CLIENT: Right, right. You're reputation would have to be so...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...yeah, that people... Yeah, yeah. I agree.

THERAPIST: So... And even tutoring, even a tutoring business... I hear you more thinking about what do I do right now to make enough money to finish my PhD...

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: ...so that you can get the credential to start traveling as an artist.

CLIENT: Right, right, right.

THERAPIST: That's a very different...

CLIENT: Yeah. I see what you're saying.

THERAPIST: Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yeah. And that... In that case...

THERAPIST: Versus you're starting a career business and that's not what you're saying you want to do.

CLIENT: Right, right, right. Actually you're right. Yeah. The tutoring would actually be at least a way to just make some money on my own.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Just as anyone... I mean, people finishing their PhDs often get side admin jobs...

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: ...like a receptionist where you can actually study all day long.

CLIENT: That's right. [00:30:01]

THERAPIST: So then you get paid for finishing your PhD. That's really cost effective good decision. But, I mean, there maybe... There's something that feels like there's sort of the life long career business that's getting confused with whether you want to be, go the artist route.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I mean, what I could do is just focus on the tutoring. And even on the other thing I had, nonprofit, you know... Because that's still... It's still nonprofit but I'd still be making good money from that. And it's something I do. It's... I could do that.

THERAPIST: You wouldn't have to go further into debt to do either one of those.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: You have credentials already.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: And they are filling in to further what you want to do next...

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: ...instead of tying you further into something that keeps you here and keeps you away from being an artist.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:30:59]

(PAUSE)

I think... You know, I think that's the other reason I want to like have more distance. Like see now, this creates another situation where I have to explain myself. Do you know what I mean? To my family. I'm just done, fucking done with that. You know? I'm just done. "What do you do?" Because now it's going to be like, "See, I told you. Of course he's not going to be a life coach." It's just... I'm done with that and I think I just need to get away from... The only way to deal with it is to get away from... Either, even in Darien, like, if we get this money and I buy a condo, go live in a condo and just have even more physical space. You know? [00:31:57]

It's just like... You know? But ultimately it's just to get the fuck out of here. I'm tired of... You know? So... (PAUSE) Because that's what happens. Then I end up feeling bad. Like it triggers all these. It's like, "Well, yeah..." Because basically I start validating them. See, yeah, they're right. Why did I... Why didn't I think it through? Why did I decide to be a life coach? You know, it's like all this nonsensical stuff. Yeah. I would be a great life coach and maybe I still will be one. It's just...

THERAPIST: And you still might want to do it. But I think even as the way you're talking about it right now... You started saying, "I have a new plan." There's so much more in that plan, in life coaching, in tutoring, in admin, in even being a professor, even finishing the PhD. Maybe that's not a good decision. [00:33:03]

There's so much more to really think through what you want to do, what's going to make sense, in reality, in practicality of the financial limitations and in being true to yourself as an artist.

CLIENT: No. The PhD is a good idea. It's a good idea. Because, I mean, it's a European... I mean, come on 70, 80 pages. You've just got to crank it out. I mean, come on, it's a fucking... I'm going to be a doctor. Come on. But this, you know... For example, who says I'm not a life... I am a life coach. I am a life coach. I say that I'm a life coach. I'm a life coach. That's the beauty of being a life coach. But, yeah, I don't want to pay... For now, I don't want to pay for the office space. You know? So, I guess in that way, it's not like saying, "Yeah, it was a bad idea. I'm not going to be..." No. It's a great idea. I just... You know, I don't need the office space right now. [00:34:07]

THERAPIST: Until you can maintain some (inaudible at 00:34:09) at someone's house...

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I didn't want to have to do it that way. But that's fine with me. Yeah, then it becomes a bit more... The hierarchy changes a bit. You know, the tutoring becomes the focus. And then, you know, if I happen to get some clients life coaching, that's great. You know? But... (PAUSE) Yeah.

THERAPIST: But again, life coaching, is a longer term relationship with someone which it might not necessarily be. If you're thinking of leaving the country, it changes a little bit about whether that's the best long term plan. [00:34:57]

CLIENT: Right. I don't think... Well, I mean, you know, well, I could tailor it to be like kind of short term consultations. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Which then also means you have to have a constant flow of clients...

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: ...because when one ends...

CLIENT: And that's why, yeah, it needs to be maybe secondary to the tutoring and maybe the tutoring even needs to be secondary to the nonprofit idea. That's something I care about way more than tutoring, to get a couple of writing workshops. That's way you're helping but you're also making money. (PAUSE) But, I mean, I think, in a way, it is what you're saying. That is what I'm deciding. I think I was like, you know... All these other things are good ideas. They're not bad ideas. It's just that I... [00:35:59]

When you're that close to a PhD, you're that close to a second book, you know, you've got to get those... Those are the things that are, like you said, what kind of life do you want to live? You have to... Those are the things that are going to start giving me those opportunities. So I think it's just, you know... (PAUSE) It's all part of the same struggle. Like I've gotten so much better. But, see, in these kinds of moments, that's what happens. My identity as an artist, that's getting... I start questioning it. Not questioning it. I... Even without realizing, I start kind of not taking it seriously. It's like... You know? And that's not me. That's them. Who's going to write poetry? You know? It's like I can't concentrate because I can't take shit seriously because I'm trained to feel like, "What the fuck? I don't have two nickels to rub together." You know? [00:37:07]

You know, it's like... I'm just... I can't do that. So luckily I'm catching myself. You know? But... (PAUSE) It's a clich�, you know. People say it all the time but it's true. These people are toxic. My mom's side is toxic. It's unbelievable. I love them. But...

THERAPIST: Maybe that's what got you depressed (inaudible at 00:37:47)

CLIENT: Yeah. Maybe. Being back and I think maybe, deep down I was realizing these things that I've got to stay true to, as hard as it is and as much as they don't understand, I've got stay... [00:38:05]

Because the fact is, you know... I'm just saying this right now. I can't believe I didn't articulate this in the past week to myself. But the fact is I do see these things through. Right? I did publish a book. I've put out records. So, as an artist, I see things through all the time. I just don't see things through that I'm being either bullied into or I'm being kind of brainwashed into or whatever. You know? Yeah. Of course I'm not going to see it through because I don't want to do it because I don't care about it. But when I feel like I have to constantly take an apologetic, like make excuses in a way, like, "Well, I'm trying to be an artist..." You know what I mean? Like as if I have to keep explaining myself. You know, that's...

(PAUSE) [00:39:00]

It's like anything else, you know, you have to surround yourself with people that are on your side. I've done that with my friends. I've made changes, whatever. And it's the same with my family. I just... I really don't see them that often anyway. But there needs to be a more clearer... Like, "You know what, man? I don't want to talk about politics with you. When you ask me how I'm doing, you know, I'm fine. I mean..." I mean, that's the other thing. When they ask me, it's like, I'm not even talking about this other shit. It's like, "Yeah. I'm almost done with my second book. I'm almost done with my PhD. And then I'm probably going to get the hell out of here." (LAUGHTER) "Business? Yeah. It's fine. It'll be fine." You know what I mean? (LAUGHTER) Like I don't want to get into, you know... There's just no point. It's all just silly... You know... [00:39:59]

THERAPIST: I've often felt like even at the level of like taking on easy pointless menial jobs, there's been some of your family judgment inside telling you not to do that.

CLIENT: Of course.

THERAPIST: Where, to me, it sounds like they're so practical and the very thing that would support your being an artist. That's actually what artists do.

CLIENT: And the crazy thing is they were always like that. Even when I was a kid... At the time you do those jobs.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean, other than... I had some menial jobs. I'm not saying I didn't. They were never like, you know, "Hey, I was just at the coffee shop. They're looking for help." You know what I mean? They're working at the mall or whatever the fuck. Because their idea is that from the beginning you have to aim way higher than that. You know?

THERAPIST: And the thing is that what they're missing is that you are.

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: It's a vehicle that, in some ways, you actually want it to be mindless because then you get to focus your mind on your art.

CLIENT: Exactly, exactly.

THERAPIST: If you're too busy with people's minds and being a life coach, you're going to lose being in touch with your art. That's the true half way. It's a great thing to have. It's so devalued. [00:41:11]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And it's like that's not going to change, you know what I mean, on their end. So I'm just done talking about it. So even if I have to, not lie, but skirt things and be just... I'm just done. I don't have to explain myself to anybody because even if I said something... That's even the worst thing. When I say heartfelt shit, like no, "You know what? I'm an artist." They don't get it. And they're not worth that honest, that genuine whatever I'm trying to give them. It's not worth it to me. You know? They don't deserve that. So it's like, "Yeah, yeah. Life? It'll be fine. I'm life coaching. I'm doing it. Don't worry about it." You know, just I'm not interested anymore in these fucking business man conversations. Do you know what I mean? [00:42:03]

I just don't give a fuck. So...

THERAPIST: See you tomorrow.

CLIENT: At noon?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Okay. Thanks. See you later.

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