TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: It's warm today, huh? It's crazy.

What's up?

THERAPIST: Nothing.

CLIENT: So... I need to get new jeans.

Interesting day yesterday; I went from not seeing that chick that kept inviting me to her house to seeing her and Uma (sp?) on the same day. So it was fun, I guess.

THERAPIST: So Uma came out?

CLIENT: She did. Yeah. I don't know. It's all right.

But yeah, I'm having trouble, definitely, really connecting, I think, because of all this. [00:01:07]

Like, I'm having trouble really-we were out, I took her out for drinks (inaudible at 00:01:13). It was nice, but I just feel tired. I'm not even sure what to talk about, in a weird way.

THERAPIST: When you say, "Because of all this," what do you mean?

CLIENT: I think there's so much on my mind. I'm constantly in a-I'm sure this must happen, when people are in this kind of therapy, where I'm basically in therapy I feel like all the time. Which is why I'm enjoying alone time.

So then, when I'm with people especially kind of romantic, it's one-on-one I feel like I'm different now. I don't know, I can't explain it. Because I'm not putting up a front as much, I'm not-so it's like I can't even force it anymore. [00:02:03] Or something, I don't know.

Or then I feel like... that sometimes (ph), I feel like, "Am I being too heavy and too intense?" Because that's just a mode I'm-I mean, I think I'm an intense person, anyway. And I'm fine with that. But lately, I feel like, "Ugh, am I complaining?" or, "Do I seem down?" I'm not sure what the vibe is that I'm giving.

I also know that I overthink these things, and I'm sure... But I even don't know what kind of small talk to make, in a way.

That might be good? Maybe that's part of the reason people like me, is that I try to have real conversation. [00:03:00]

(pause)

THERAPIST: I just noticed (ph): don't know how to, or don't want to? Because I feel (crosstalk at 00:03:06)-

CLIENT: I think both, maybe, a little bit.

THERAPIST: Does it feel meaningless (crosstalk at 00:03:11)?

CLIENT: A little bit, yeah.

Actually, it's not that I don't try. I try. I'm like, "How's your apartment?" I do. And it's not that I don't mean it. I do care. There's just something, I don't know. I'm just...

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:03:24)

CLIENT: I think at the end of the day, everybody's like, "You know, yeah. Let's wrap this up so I can get home to my cat and my Netflix."

I don't feel a desire to-like Uma, last night? I was glad, in a way. To be honest, I was surprised. I didn't think I was going to have sex with her. But we started making out, whatever, and I kind of felt it.

And we did. Although (ph) even that, it was good, it was good, but I'm tired. There's something in me that's... [00:04:01] It was good, but wasn't my normal... (pause) For me, it wasn't what it usually is. She was quite happy and all that, but I could tell that I was getting a little tired.

Then that was in my own head, so then I couldn't enjoy it anymore. I got over that initial. Once we were at it for a while, I lost interest, I think. Or something I don't know what it is. Maybe something creeps in where I'm like, "What am I doing"-not, "What am I doing here?" but I'm in that place. I'm having trouble enjoying... I don't know.

THERAPIST: It's hard to know what it is.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's hard to know what it is. Because with that other chick? With that one, I could enjoy it more, because that is purely it's very sexual. [00:05:03] I mean, she doesn't think it is, but it definitely is.

With Uma, it's so loaded. She clearly... (pause)

I don't know what it is. For some reason, with Uma, I can't look at it as sexual as much, because I really like her. It's hard for me to...

THERAPIST: Because you really like her.

CLIENT: As a person. It didn't start that way; it's not a sexual relationship.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:05:43) that other woman, when you say it's really sexual, do you mean it's just sexual?

CLIENT: It's not just sexual, but clearly, that's the energy. I went over there and was like, "I could easily not be here." Luckily, she's-this is good. [00:06:00] I can deal with this. But otherwise, I'm like-

THERAPIST: But otherwise, you're not interested in her.

CLIENT: I don't think so-

THERAPIST: -to be your girlfriend.

CLIENT: I don't think so. She would like that, but-

THERAPIST: But not you. You don't think so, or...?

CLIENT: That's awesome.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: What? No, I don't think so. I think it would be a one-, two-month thing, at the most.

THERAPIST: How come about her?

CLIENT: She's a little nutty. She's got some kind of Asperger's or something. So I wouldn't be able to deal with that. It makes her overly to think everything out too much. So she's constantly scanning herself. She can't make eye contact that well. I can't. I've got enough, I can't deal with that.

And also, I know now to stay away from girls like that. She's traveled a lot. She's lived in Phoenix. I don't date girls that lived in Phoenix. [00:07:02] There's something about Phoenix that I don't like.

The girls I dated from there, they're all fucked-up. They're all fucked-up. And Phoenix's a very hedonistic-there's something wacky that goes on in Phoenix, so all these women had issues. They were hypersexual. But they had issues. They're manic or they're this or they're-I think Phoenix draws these. It's not like San Diego. Phoenix I think draws more like kind of flighty... they're dancers. They're entrepreneurs. They're just kind of all over the place or something. And this girl's kind of like that, too. She seems very together, but she's clearly not. I could tell.

And that's the thing: I've gotten better. I can read the sexual energy, too, now. Yeah, the sex is going to be fantastic but it's a fucked-up... [00:08:04] I know for myself, right? It's great to have a high sex drive, but generally, there's something else going on. And with her, definitely. So, that'll be fun, but I'm not getting all wrapped-up in dealing with that. I'm not interested.

THERAPIST: Meaning that there's going to be something unhealthy about it being so sexual (crosstalk at 00:08:26)?

CLIENT: We all have something unhealthy. But yeah, I'm saying with her? On top of whatever autism, whatever the fuck she has.

You can't really tell, per se, until she tells you. But then when she tells you she has it, you're like, "Ah, okay." She's a little robotic, a little bit. She can't really make eye contact that well, but she's super-intelligent. And very put together. She's got really nice taste and this and that.

I don't want to deal with that. You have to choose what issues you're willing to deal with with people. [00:09:00]

THERAPIST: Whereas with Uma, what do you feel for her?

CLIENT: Uma's great. And we talked about this. I think it's just the distance. I think if she lived here, maybe it'd be a little different. But it's too loaded, because every time we see each other, it's a bit-I can't help it, I feel like things are invested in that meeting. It's not just like, "Hey, let's just like-"

THERAPIST: A little too much pressure, (inaudible at 00:09:25)?

CLIENT: Yeah!

THERAPIST: And what does that mean, "Too much pressure"? Or "Loaded," even? I get what you're saying, but what happens then?

CLIENT: What if I don't want to get together on that day or whatever? Or that weekend, I'm not in a great mood? But that's the weekend she's here. I don't like (inaudible at 00:09:43) like that-I don't do well.

I don't even like to make plans, to be honest with you. I don't make a lot of plans. When I do, they're very last-minute. I just call my friends, "Do you want to do this? Great. No? Great." Crank up the Netflix, no problem.

I don't like long-term... (inaudible at 00:09:58). "Let's meet at the bar (sp?) next Thursday at 7:30." It's like, "No, I don't think so. I might not be in the mood."

THERAPIST: It's not just (inaudible at 00:10:04)?

CLIENT: Yeah, no. I don't like that. It's next Thursday, are you kidding me? I could be in a good mood, bad mood, who knows what's going to happen next Thursday?

Unless it's something much more obvious, like Thanksgiving, or it's your birthday, and you're inviting people to your party for your birthday. I understand things like that.

But just this general thing of... that? I don't do that. General friendships? "Dude, just fucking call me. If I'm free, I'm free. If I'm not, I'm not." And vice versa. I don't get upset if on Friday I call people at 5:00. If they've already made plans, I don't give a fuck. That's fine. But I'm not going to make plans for Friday and then what if I then don't want to go out on that day?

THERAPIST: What does that feel like? If you really didn't feel like it and you still had to?

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Like Uma. She comes what you're describing[00:11:01]

CLIENT: It's suffocating. It's suffocating. And it makes me feel like I'm having to do something I don't really want to do.

(pause)

But ultimately? Who knows. Maybe a lot of this, too, is maybe if I was more head over heels for her, this conversation would be very different. I can't tell what...

THERAPIST: I don't know. (inaudible at 00:11:30) so much in it. Whether (inaudible at 00:11:33) she's the one or not, there's so much in feeling suffocated. That's worth knowing more about.

CLIENT: Well, if you felt suffocated your whole life... yeah, that's how I feel.

THERAPIST: Can you say more about what comes to mind when you think about it with your mother, suffocated?

CLIENT: It's not just my mom. The whole atmosphere there-family is-just loud and the negativity and not having room to be me. [00:12:12]

So then feeling like I'm being forced into...

(pause)

THERAPIST: So that may be a piece of what it feels like, if you're looking at what's underneath all this with Uma or with someone else who you're maybe interested in. Who knows if Uma's the one or not? But there's something about... is (ph) there a feeling you lose the space to be yourself if you're having to hang out with someone?

CLIENT: I don't know. We had a very open conversation, which was nice. That's the thing I like about her. She's a very healthy-we just talk. I was like, "Listen, it's not something I want to think about, but at the same time? I understand. We live far apart and I'm in a place where I'm having trouble." [00:13:08] I told her, honest about it. I'm having trouble making time for people. I'm in my head.

When I'm alone, I feel pretty good! But with intimate either friendships, or-even friendships, I've pared down who I see regularly. In terms of my friends, like three people, four people. And they're all my older Assyrian friends, so I don't have to feel-it's family, really.

So I was like, "If you meet someone else... " I don't know. We had a very honest conversation about that, whatever.

But I think, also, it's going back to what do I really want? I'm going to settle down with a chick from Delaware? [00:14:00] What is that? I think I've put my mind to that fact that I'm either going to be alone and kind of date here and there, or there's a certain kind of person that I would maybe consider really settling down with. And that person isn't a Delaware native. Or even a Darien native, maybe. I don't know.

There's also that. I'm more cognizant now. Really, what is...? If it's not just going to be fun and sexual, then... this girl's driving all the way here, I'm going to go all the way there? It almost seems unnecessarily stressful and maybe painful.

THERAPIST: Yeah, unless you really like her.

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly.

THERAPIST: But you're saying that (crosstalk at 00:14:52)-

CLIENT: I like her enough that if she was here, it'd be different. But the amount of effort involved to see each other... [00:15:00] And finances, from my end.

And again, you need energy. Even thinking about driving to Delaware, it's... tired, man. I don't want to do that.

(pause)

THERAPIST: Not to mention you're also thinking about where to be a year from now, five years from now.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or even leaving the country, how do you fit that in (inaudible at 00:15:32)? Are you going to be getting into a serious relationship right now, if that's going to happen?

(pause) [00:16:00]

CLIENT: I told her this, too, yesterday a little bit. I think I'm realizing that because I don't feel like I belong anywhere-people say things like that, but now I get it. On a gut level, I get that that's really true for me.

So that makes it hard to be in relationships. There's always some level where I feel like they don't get me. [00:17:00] I think I'm getting to the place, now, where I'm both accepting that more and realizing, "You know what, that just means I'm going to be alone a lot more."

And two, that if I do settle with someone, it's going to be someone that at least can kind of relate; they're just worldly enough and cosmopolitan enough that they can get that. Maybe they feel that too, on some level.

Even with Uma. Yesterday, we were talking and I was trying to explain to her that my uncle's in overseas and I'm having trouble. Here, I don't want to be that conversation, like, "That's so sad, what's happening in Syria."

That just makes me angry, now. It's this very white liberal... I'd almost rather have someone just be an asshole right-wing (laughs) whatever. At least they really are that. [00:18:01] It's facetious. It's like, "Well, do you really feel bad? I don't know if you do, really. I mean, yeah, I guess you do, but..." I don't know.

And it's not just my uncle, but more and more I can't-I was telling (inaudible at 00:18:14) that I can't...there's too much of a disconnect between the really real mystery that's going on now, in the world, and even here, now, that's going on...and the kind of white bubble middle-class...it's not working for me anymore.

I'm not a big military person, but there are soldiers still dying every day in a war that we've all forgotten about. It's just weird. It's so surreal, to me.

And I'm not going to pretend that I'm not an intense artist-type that cares about these-I can't help but...I just can't...I'm having trouble relaxing with that stuff and be like, "Oh, whatever." [00:19:02]

So that means I need to be somewhere where I don't feel so out of place with that. At least in Europe, people are just more connected to these things. They have their problems and there are a lot of assholes and hypocrisy and all that. But in general, people are just connected to the world in a way that's not like or something. I don't connect at all to that. There's something very hollow and weird about that mindset that I don't get.

(pause)

So...I don't know what I was saying. See, this is the problem? I'm even doing it here. This is what's worrying me. I'm like, "Am I being too heavy about these things? Why are they so much on my mind?" [00:20:01]

But that's the thing: does it have to do with all this stuff that ? It might. My family, obviously, comes from a certain background and (inaudible at 00:20:17), so it has to do with that. But some of it's just like millions of other people here. I'm just a sensitive, compassionate, and artistic person, so I can't help but notice things. And they fucking bother me. I can't keep pretending like they don't.

It's been very conflicting lately. Maybe that's why, too, when I'm with these Assyrian friends, we can talk about these things.

Actually, I've never even thought about this. Then, we can be light-hearted, because we have a real conversation where everyone gets it. [00:21:00] And then we say something funny, and we joke around, and we move on. Whereas the trouble here is that I can't have that release. It's all this weird either small talk or just that kind of, "Oh, that's so sad what's happening," or, "It's such bullshit, this was is bullshit," or whatever.

That's not connecting with me, because I feel like it's not a gut level. They're just saying it. I don't know. I don't know. It's weird. I wish I didn't, to be honest. I wish I didn't think about these things as much.

In a way, that's what I kind of don't like about my mom's side. They're so political.

(pause) [00:22:00]

THERAPIST: That also makes me wonder if even though this may sound a little strange if there could be, at some level, some feeling about what you're describing. (inaudible at 00:22:12) contrasting here with there, or European, or Assyrian. They're more worldly or who gets it. Maybe there's something you're feeling here, too, about with me that is there something I don't get, or can't get, or...?

CLIENT: No, I haven't felt that.

THERAPIST: [A something I'm from that's different.] (ph)

CLIENT: No, because I'm also not, like...it's hard, because I'm generalizing a little bit. Obviously, I do have friends-like my friend Olive, she gets it. She's a white, Irish, Darien woman. It's not that there aren't people who-

THERAPIST: Yeah, no, of course I know that. Of course that's a generalization. But-

CLIENT: It's the opposite here. [00:23:01] For whatever reason, I don't feel that. (pause) That's why I've been coming here so long. For whatever reason, I feel like we have a connection that I don't feel with the people I'm describing.

THERAPIST: That can be true of any (inaudible at 00:23:25) those places where you don't feel that, where you feel misunderstood or like there's something (crosstalk at 00:23:30) you never get.

CLIENT: It hasn't happened yet, but it could happen. But I haven't felt that yet.

Look, on some level, there's always going to even my Assyrian friends we're human being and we'll never really understand each other.

THERAPIST: Of course. But one of my jobs is to figure out when that's happening here, if it (inaudible at 00:23:55). It may not be happening-

CLIENT: What I'm saying is but then you're lucky, with some people, where that might happen at some point. [00:24:04] But you're just lucky with some people, where something just seems to fit.

For whatever reason, I've never thought that or felt that.

THERAPIST: Although a perfect fit doesn't exist, right?

CLIENT: Well, you know what I mean. There are some people that as perfect or as nice of a fit as you can find, where you seem to be syncopated on pretty much a lot of things.

THERAPIST: Yes and no. I mean, I think part of humanity [can run you] (ph) really close to someone you feel connected to is that there are disagreements and differences, misunderstandings all the time.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, sure. But it could be here, because we don't talk about a lot of things that we might not agree...I talk about these, but I'm not asking your opinion about political things.

THERAPIST: [You don't know my opinion.] (ph)

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know where you stand, whatever. [00:25:00] And I kind of like that, so that works for me. Because this isn't a place for that.

THERAPIST: For sure, true. But in a way, then, you get to sort of get protected from the possibility that you could feel like you're an outsider here, too. Or feel disappointed, or feel disconnected, in a way the very feelings you feel haunted by, out there.

CLIENT: Maybe that's something I've already absorbed. I was already so skeptical about all of this stuff, right? So I think, over the years, I've already dealt with that, in the sense of like, yeah, I leave here and then you have a life, right? You're not like an intimate part of my life outside of this room. So in a way, I've already gone there, in my mind and sorted that. Yeah, this is a specific kind of relationship. You could have all kinds of beliefs, you could whatever. [00:26:00]

I guess what I'm saying is I already know that I also kind of don't belong or don't connect here, either. But I've already jumped that hurdle, because I'm not going to be like that anywhere, right? So you have to take the good and acknowledge that. I'm getting so much out of this that (inaudible at 00:26:24) go fucking join the Tea Party, for all I care, or whatever we might disagree on.

If you were like, "Well, I don't think it's a good idea for you to move," that's not going to break me. Because I've already dealt with (inaudible at 00:26:45). We're friends, but we're not really friends in a normal way (inaudible at 00:26:50). I've already sorted that shit out. Because I think I knew that I would probably have to do that. [00:27:00]

(pause)

THERAPIST: I mean, yes, it's not a friendship, but it's still a relationship.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So in other words, I'm not a robot. And you know all sorts of things about, in a way calling me a preppie the other day, right? There are things you know. There are differences, there are similarities, there are things to-

CLIENT: I call you a preppie?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh yuppie! Yuppie! Yeah.

CLIENT: Yuppie. Okay, that's a little bit better. Wow, that's not right.

THERAPIST: It was yuppie. And I know, it's in jest. I guess I'm just saying there are things that-one way of dealing with there being difference (ph) or the way of being in awareness of your reality is to shut out thinking about it ever, right?

But then it's the idea that I'm just a mirror of you that I think could leave you feeling ever more like everyone else is an outsider, do you know what I mean? [00:28:03]

CLIENT: I don't think of you at all like a mirror.

That's what I'm trying to say. There's a few things: first of all, this is like the most intimate relationship I've ever had, obviously. Clearly. Whatever closest girlfriend I've had has never-so, obviously, it's a relationship. It's a really substantive relationship.

But I think what I'm trying to say though is that even the yuppie, whatever things I do know about you, I like those things.

THERAPIST: You could, you could not.

CLIENT: There can be things I don't know yet. But what I'm saying is up to this point, whatever there might be, I'm like, "Claire's (sp?)..." I don't know, I can't think of anything right now. But "She's one of those people that does x, y, and z." But for whatever reason, I'm like, "That's cool, I like her." [00:29:01] That happens, too.

My Assyrian friends, are you kidding? We're very different. Very different. But those things that are different about them, they're either outweighed by how dear they are as friends, or I kind of like it. I'm like, "Oh, that's so wacky! That's not like me at all but I'm so glad that he's like that."

THERAPIST: So it feels more like that here at least, for now.

CLIENT: I would not fucking be here if-I don't think I'd be here even if there was a hint of feeling uncomfortable or disconnected. Why would I be here? I'm not like that. That's why I didn't see all those other people.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And yet, also, if we're doing our work, eventually there would be something where you feel, right? Because it's not perfect.

CLIENT: Well, yeah.

THERAPIST: And I think that's part of what you never got to have as a child, is the idea of someone where the difference can be disappointing but can be negotiated, can be navigated, is ordinary, kind of good-enough-ness but that isn't perfect. [00:30:12]

You're so, so smothered-

CLIENT: But that's what I'm saying. That's why this is great. That's exactly why I like this, because of course it's not perfect!

And again, I'm not saying-I'm sure there's a lot of shit you do that would annoy me, just like there's probably shit I do would-I get all that. It's just that some relationships, there's all the shit that annoys you or that could annoy you, but you don't care anyway. Or even if you do care, when those things come up, you get through them, because you're like, "No." That's what's awesome. I've never had something quite like that. It's pretty fucking amazing. [00:31:03]

THERAPIST: In a way, then, maybe what you're seeing in other relationships, outside, is the part of the things that's tired. It's the part that's used to keep things up, no matter what-

CLIENT: Yeah, the part of me that's tired is the part that can't find this in the everyday world. That's what's hard. Not a therapy session, but someone where you can be like...(wincing noise) I've done that, right? I know how people have feelings for their therapist, when you're seeing someone a long time.

But I've even done that. I've been like, "Nope!" But Claire's not perfect, right? She's beautiful, but she's not the most-no one's the most beautiful. I've gone to the nitty-gritty of thinking about you, now, because I knew that if I didn't do that, then it's not right, the way I'm seeing things. [00:32:05] Know what I'm saying?

So that's why sometimes it is important to tease you about your I'm just thinking about this now but maybe that's why I do it. Because I'm like, "I don't like those shoes." But then when I leave here or whatever, even when I'm here, I'm like, "Yeah, but, you know what? I still like Claire." That's a great feeling. It's like, "She can wear those shoes all she wants." You know what I mean?

That connection is hard to find, where I can be like, "Ooh, man, those fucking shoes suck, but she's beautiful anyway," or, "She's a great person." I want to go out of my way to see her. I don't want to think about Cecelia (sp?) and Netflix and a sandwich.

My Assyrian friends, that's how they are. Like, I'll be in bed, like 9:00, I'm all cozy, Cecelia's right here, I'm watching Netflix. And (inaudible at 00:32:59), if they call me, I will get up and I will go-like, that's worth it, to me. [00:33:03]

Uma, I...I feel really bad saying that, because Uma is such an amazing person. You know what I mean?

(pause)

THERAPIST: Sort of. What does that mean? (crosstalk at 00:33:24)

CLIENT: What I'm saying is that she's awesome but it's not quite this kind of connection. Or like with George or...there's always an x-factor. You can't put your finger exactly on why it is, I think, at least. You can explain a bunch of things, but then there's just something you're just compelled.

I see George all the fucking time, but if calls me at 9:00 for whatever reason, I'm like, "I'm going to leave the house. He wants to go get coffee, we're going to go." Why? There's some x-factor that I'm like, "I want to spend time with this person." [00:34:03]

Whereas with Uma, I don't always-I do and I don't. I could take it or leave it, kind of.

THERAPIST: I wonder what about George. Does he-

CLIENT: Because they're like family. I feel a real comfort with them. There's no pretense of anything.

I mean, Gene this other friend he's got a big, bushy, kind of pepper moustache. He's got a bit of a belly. He talks kind of loud, with his accent. He works at that newspaper (inaudible at 00:34:40) at the airport. Sometimes he'll just come from the airport in this kind of airport, like, white shirt, dark blue slacks or whatever.

And we'll go have a beer. And he's sitting there, white hairs are coming out of his shirt, he's a little bit slovenly. That's so comforting. And we just joke. [00:35:00] But he's super-fucking-intelligent and funny.

These are people that have...it's like salt of the earth kind of thing. These are people that are the real deal.

THERAPIST: Well, particularly what you're describing is people where you feel like you really can be yourself and you're not going to be judged.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. We can joke. We can have very serious conversations. Then we can joke. I learn from them.

That's the other thing: I don't learn from my friends. I feel bad saying that, but I enjoy them. But I don't walk away from them saying, "Wow, I learned a lot of this really interesting..." But these guys, I do. I ask them questions. "What was it like when you were blah, blah, blah?" They tell me all these fucking stories about the Middle East or Assyria or wherever they're from. It's fascinating. I learn all these things about the world.

THERAPIST: How old is George?

CLIENT: These guys are all over[00:36:01]

THERAPIST: A lot older.

CLIENT: They're all at least between 50 and 60.

THERAPIST: So is he kind of paternal for you?

CLIENT: They're all kind of paternal, but they're also big-brotherly. They have filthy mouths and smoking and funny as hell and dirty jokes. But warm and...

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:36:27) there's a little bit of feeling of kind of looking up to them, a little bit.

CLIENT: Looking up in the sense of you should to salt of the earth people-to the fact that these people work their asses off, they've gone through hell, they don't complain.

THERAPIST: Like your dad.

CLIENT: Yeah. They love my dad. They looked up to my dad. It was kind of like that.

Yeah, there is some of that. But it's also that's part of me. [00:37:01] I am like my dad, kind of. So I feel just like my dad loved them, I just feel a connection with them. Because they have that dervish-do they say that in English? Like a dervish, an Assyrian used that word for like a Bohemian, someone that's just them. There's no pretense.

That's what these guys are like. George will have a fucking black hat and earring and black shirt. They look ridiculous, in a way, but it's also so cool, because they don't give a fuck.

That couldn't be more endearing. It's just so fucking endearing.

THERAPIST: They don't care what people think about them.

CLIENT: Absolutely. Not at-

THERAPIST: It's so much contrast to your mother's family.

CLIENT: Exactly.

So then, blend that with actual good conversation. There are so many layers. I like speaking Assyrian. [00:38:00] All that stuff. I learn from them. I get advice from them, even indirectly, sometimes.

There's just a lot of meat on the bones of the relationship. Whereas most of my non-Assyrian friends, I don't-there's Dave, there's Olive, there's a couple people.

THERAPIST: I know you might say I'm being too psychoanalytical about this but there is something that sounds like finding your father.

CLIENT: Oh, no diggity, no doubt. Well, the same with Michael, right? There's been a couple people that-yeah, yeah. Absolutely. That older woman that we went to Vancouver with, there's something maternal.

Did I tell you she said something really that she said it like two or three times but it really touched me, this last time we went to Vancouver. And Jurgen went up to our room and he went to sleep or whatever he was doing. [00:39:04]

Her and I had coffee and we got into this whole conversation. She asked me about anxiety, depression. We had this whole fucking conversation.

Then the next morning, I knocked on her door, (inaudible at 00:39:19), like, "Hey, (inaudible at 00:39:19), whatever." And we were waiting for Jurgen to finish showering or whatever he was doing. And she was like, "You know, I just want to tell you it really meant a lot to me. Our conversation, things you said, I really appreciate that."

That's what I'm talking about. I think I just don't have patience anymore for things that aren't like that. I'll go, once in a while, I'll see people. Obviously, I'm not going to be hermit. But I'm not going out of my way-well, I haven't been going. If I see them at some party or something, great. [00:40:00] Or if last-minute plans to have a drink at whatever, fine.

THERAPIST: Hear me out on this one (chuckles). Hold the skepticism for a second.

That same kind of feeling could happen here, too. That's like finding your father. Finding a mother you didn't have.

And, like George, there could be something about-the way you describe the relationship, it's incredibly intimate and caring. And yet it's also not exactly equal. There can be something you're looking for that is like what you never got to have.

This is a space that's not about me. For example, in a way, a romantic relationship where you're really mutual? It's not that way here. It's about attending and taking care of your mind's experience.

And there's something that sounds similar with George. [00:41:00] It's what you might be looking for at a much deeper level that actually, right now, you might not even find in a girlfriend. That's a kind of earlier, earlier need that got devastated by the loss of your father.

CLIENT: But that's the whole point of being here, right?

THERAPIST: What do you mean?

CLIENT: Well, of course, I'm not going to get exactly this from (inaudible at 00:41:24), this is therapy.

THERAPIST: Yes.

Forget therapy even for a second, or a girlfriend, or that kind of relationship. What may be highlighted (inaudible at 00:41:36) right now is the need for the things that you didn't get when you were a kid.

CLIENT: Yeah, there's a lot of that, yeah.

THERAPIST: And, in other words, that a mutual relationship with a girlfriend, that may not be what is alive. If there's the part of you that was a hurting child is really much more palpable to you and the aloneness is more palpable[00:42:00]

CLIENT: Oh, I see what you're saying. So then, it makes it tougher to have that kind of relationship, because I just want to be taken care of in a way or something.

THERAPIST: Yes. Yes. That is appropriate in a therapy relationship, right? That's what this is designed to do. That's a little bit about what the setup with George sounds a little bit like. I know it's not completely (inaudible at 00:42:19). There's a kind of-

CLIENT: It is and isn't. I've done a lot for these guys, as well. It's not like they attend-and also, these guys are tough guys. It's like, "No crying in baseball."

I could, if I was devastated. I could be emotional-

THERAPIST: You're not crying on their shoulder, though. (crosstalk at 00:42:44)

CLIENT: No way. No. No, no, no, no, no. No. It's not like they'd be like, "Suck it up, what's the matter with you?" They won't do that.

But that's a place where there is a disconnect; these guys aren't sitting around being reflective and contemplative and blah, blah, blah. [00:43:02]

And besides that, we've been there for each other. I'll be up Gene from the airport at 1:00.

But that being said? Yeah, of course, I totally agree. There's a deep connection I feel that is kind of like they're big brothers or uncles or something that I didn't have. And they remind me of my-there's a direct connection to my dad. Even our families, our families go way back. So there's an actual connection. It also feels good to be like, "We're keeping that going." There's that, as well.

But yeah, I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying.

THERAPIST: It's only that there may be some part that's happening right now that has to do with being in more contact, that need to be taken care of. And that that can be even inhibitory in a kind of romantic relationship. [00:44:01] It's different.

CLIENT: Yeah, because you don't want to feel needy. You don't want to sound like you're complaining or that you're being heavy.

So it either has to be someone that's already a caring which Uma actually kind of is. She's a very understanding, caring person.

I see what you're saying.

THERAPIST: Next week.

CLIENT: Awesome.

THERAPIST: Thanks!

CLIENT: 1:00. (crosstalk at 00:44:36) Savvy. Have a good weekend!

THERAPIST: You, too.

CLIENT: Thanks.

END TRANSCRIPT