TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Want to turn off the campfire? Sorry. I tend to run so hot.

THERAPIST: It gets really cold in here.

CLIENT: Right. My apartment is like that, too. How’s it going?

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: I had a funny experience yesterday that I thought was really symbolic of a lot of things. I had a date and before the date I was online. I was eating a sandwich and I saw some article this guy had written. He asked four girls that he had gone out with why they weren’t interested in him. It was so weird. It was so weird how things trigger just that little thing. [00:01:02] It totally triggered – I suddenly became superstitious that I shouldn’t read that because I have those – I don’t know what. He had those feelings of do they really like me? Do they not like me? Why do they like me? So I read it and I didn’t even really relate to the guy, but there was something about it that made me anxious a little bit. It was really funny and then right after I read that I felt like things – it’s just a shitty part of being an over-thinker. Little things went wrong, like when you’re going to a phase where you feel like you’re dropping everything. I started connecting all of that to – I don’t know what. [00:01:56]

THERAPIST: To some feeling that . . ?

CLIENT: Feelings of inadequacy or there’s something wrong with me. I don’t know. I don’t even know because I don’t really feel that way anymore, but this thing triggered it for some reason. So here’s the funny part – so then I get there and then I was fine. I wasn’t being all nervous; I was just being me. I forgot about that. I get there and this girl was fucking all over me. I don’t think I’ve had a date where a girl is pretty aggressive right off the bat in this way. It was just funny. It was just, to me, such a poignant reminder that here is this girl who keeps telling me that I’m so cute and whatever – all this shit – and all these complements and everything and is very sweet. It felt good to be able to take that, really take it. [00:02:59] I wasn’t saying thank you but feeling like I’m not cute or something, but still it was weird that – I don’t know. It was just a poignant thing.

THERAPIST: She was all over you, not just physically, you’re saying with her complementing.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, a lot of it was physical, but no – she really liked me. Whatever. All that stuff.

THERAPIST: Whatever.

CLIENT: She was just like “what are you doing to me?” (pause) I don’t know. “I just want to sit here and stare at your face.” I don’t know. Things like that. “You’re so sweet. You seem like you’re actually a really nice guy.” Things like that, so it wasn’t just a hook-up. [00:04:01]

THERAPIST: That’s what I [think you were saying first] (ph?). It sounded really much more [ ] (inaudible at 00:04:04).

CLIENT: I think so, because later she was like, “Are you sure you like me?” I don’t know. She was like, “I don’t do this all the time. This is kind of crazy.” She came home with me. Whether she does; who knows? To me (chuckles) it was just poignant that it was so night and day. Yeah. I can’t think of a . . .

THERAPIST: Disparity between [what you were feeling.] (ph?)

CLIENT: And it was almost like a melancholy, poignant – like wow, man. Years and years and years of the reality in your head not being the reality that’s outside your head. [00:05:05] And then another few years of getting it, but having to fake it. That’s what we talked about. “You said that you used to be criminally shy. You’re totally obviously not shy now.” I was like, “Well, there were years of hard work. There were some good things that happened and some bad things.” Being in a band, being a poet, those are all good ways to get . . . but your parent dies and that’s a rough way to stop being . . . because they force you to . . . or at least with me. It was just – I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Not to mention being here.

CLIENT: Well, I didn’t get into that with her, but yeah. (pause) [00:06:03] It was just very interesting. (pause)

THERAPIST: Tell me more about the feelings that come up. It sounds like you’re not necessarily identifying with the exact feelings right when it’s happening.

CLIENT: No. My past self – but that’s the thing. That’s the poignant part of this. Why am I even reading them? Because that isn’t my track record. What girls have not wanted to . . . Well, Samantha? I don’t know. Do you know what I mean? Any girl I’ve gone on dates with, I don’t remember any that – you know. Maybe more recently with this “okay, stupid” thing, but that’s so . . . nothing is invested in that. I’m not invested in it. So, of course, it’s the fucking Internet. You meet someone – ahhh, it’s whatever; and either they’re kind of whatever or you’re not . . . [00:07:03] But girls that I’ve really gone on several dates with, that’s never . . . Do you know what I mean? Even that, even the fact that I would read that article says more about this bizarre thing that is like what am I identifying with?

THERAPIST: That’s for us to get to know. I think you’ve done all the CBT you can do to yourself.

CLIENT: The what?

THERAPIST: CBT.

CLIENT: The yogurt place?

THERAPIST: No, cognitive behavioral therapy. In other words, telling yourself how to think differently about it; reminding yourself how irrational it is. You’ve had that happen over and over and over again where you just get this data that it’s irrational, that’s not what’s actually happening, but it doesn’t touch it – the feeling.

CLIENT: Doesn’t touch . . ? That was the thing. That’s what I’m saying. That’s why this was weird because for some reason it triggered something, but then it didn’t. Do you know what I mean? In other words, I didn’t carry that with me the rest of the night. [00:08:05]

THERAPIST: Into the date.

CLIENT: Yeah. In other words, it didn’t really affect me. It was more intellectual, ultimately. Initially it triggered a little bit but as soon as I kind of went “hmm,” then I think it was more like a slight worry. As soon as I hit the road and I got there – but I know what you mean. That’s the poignant part is that I remembered that that’s what it used to do.

THERAPIST: You’re saying that it didn’t, then.

CLIENT: Hell, no. No, no. That’s why it’s poignant, right? It’s poignant because I’m observing it and it’s like a sad scene from a movie. The same thing with the heart attack thing. I couldn’t say it; I didn’t want to hear it. One of my favorite episodes of The Office is the one where (chuckles) Dwight does a fake fire drill and Stanley has a heart attack. [00:09:05] I watch it over and over and it doesn’t give me anxiety, but that’s all relatively recent in the last year or two. It’s gotten better and better and better, but it’s really in the last year or two where it’s totally where I don’t even think about it. So yeah, that was interesting. (pause) And also because with this girl – I like her. It was really fun. I think she’s really cool, but I can go either way. That feels good, too, in a way. She’s nice. I guess I’ll see her again. Whatever. [00:10:00] (long pause)

THERAPIST: It’s like beginning to take in that it actually has not been the story of relationships for you and that it persisted as a story.

CLIENT: Not just relationships – to everything, right? It took me so long to share my music with people, be more serious about poetry, things that I was doing seriously, but just not in an actionable way in the world. [00:11:04]

THERAPIST: Just sharing your full self with a person instead of being so shy – you said “criminally shy” – to actually be more of yourself and she still likes you. (pause) Maybe not even being Don Juan last night.

CLIENT: Don Juan?

THERAPIST: Seductive. You know how you talk about you can go into a bar and [turn it on] (ph?), right?

CLIENT: No. But that’s been a while. No. [00:11:59]

THERAPIST: But you haven’t talked about it explicitly – the step of actually not having to do that anymore and she’s still interested.

CLIENT: I don’t know if I was overplaying that in the past. Don Juan. I don’t know if I was doing that. I think what I was doing was I was being myself, but I had to force myself to be myself. I didn’t do anything different last night that I wouldn’t do six years ago. I really didn’t. There was always “oh, you seem so calm” and “you know a lot of people.” Whatever. Whatever skills I have, I had; but I had to force myself to be myself. I had to coach myself to be calm. Don’t be anxious. It was work. It was a lot of work, so in that way it felt kind of fake. But yeah, it wasn’t like I had different lines that I used. I was just doing what I do now. (chuckles) It was just much harder because I seemed relaxed, but I wasn’t. [00:13:04]

THERAPIST: So that’s what made it feel like you were turning something on?

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: But not that it was inauthentic.

CLIENT: No. I never did things that were. I knew enough to know that that’s not going to work. I know that, but it still feels inauthentic if you feel like you’re just forcing yourself and you feel nervous. You’re being you, but obviously the person doesn’t know that you’re more insecure or you’re this or you’re that. I think maybe the other part that it wasn’t me, but the people I would go after. It seemed a little bit like . . . I guess it’s like that now, too. Obviously, you’re initially attracted to the way someone looks, but I am more open-minded now about appearance. [00:14:01] This girl wasn’t stunning. She’s pretty, like her fashion sense and something about her that’s alluring. It’s a little bit of that stuff, too.

THERAPIST: I think when I say Don Juan, it sort of picking up on this – and maybe we never quite put this in this way and you may not feel like it’s right, but it’s always sounded like years ago it was compensation for having then felt really insecure deep down inside; it was a kind of bravado and cockiness sometimes in some circumstances. It’s different than internally just having confidence, like the bravado that covers up an insecurity. [00:15:02]

CLIENT: But the funny thing is that bravado really, in the big picture, really isn’t bravado. In other words, for me that’s bravado, but really just talking to someone and having – do you know what I mean? But yes, I know what you mean. I would force myself to somehow talk to that girl. I would somehow find a way. Yeah, I don’t do that anymore.

THERAPIST: But it wouldn’t feel like just muscling your way through there. It would come out – some things you said that you said to women in bars was like way extremely seductive.

CLIENT: Like what? What?

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: What are you talking about? Like what?

THERAPIST: You would come in a lot of times saying, “You’ll never guess what I did last night,” like how you engaged with someone and slipped her your number. [00:16:02] Even while feeling these other things, it didn’t have the feeling of you were just muscling, trying to actually have an ordinary conversation. It felt sort of like over-the-top conversation.

CLIENT: But that’s what I’m saying. Some of that is authentic.

THERAPIST: It feels like you?

CLIENT: Yeah. I don’t know what seductive things, but yeah, that part felt great because that’s the part that’s, again, all from my dad’s side and my grandpa. Life is absurd. If I think someone is beautiful, it feels good to somehow muster the courage that “Look, here’s my number. I think you’re stunning.” I think it’s more the conversation. That part is almost like high school, almost like, “I’m just going to fucking do it. I’m going to ask this girl to dance with me and I’m going to look her in the eye.” It was more like after that, when she starts talking and we’re talking, that’s the part, to me, that’s the fake; that’s the important stuff. The other stuff I feel like was just daring myself to be like, “You know, I’m just not going to be scared of these fucking people.” It’s that – I don’t know. [00:17:12] Do you know what I mean? To me, it’s the conversation when you get into like, “So, what’s up? What do you do?”

THERAPIST: Then it would be having to kind of . . .

CLIENT: Because then I say real things, right? Am I a poet? I would feel weird. I would feel nervous saying – I didn’t say I was an artist. I would always circle around it; “I’m a grad student.” Everything was just labored. They didn’t know that, but it was fucking exhausting.

THERAPIST: So maybe all of it, even being brave in a bar – if you want to call it brave instead of bravado – could feel that it just comes from a different place, as does the conversation. It’s coming more from [ ] (inaudible at 00:18:00).

CLIENT: I had bravado last night. Once I feel comfortable or I feel that chemistry, within appropriateness and whatever, obviously, you have to feel something to take that dare. That’s why it’s kind of fun. You’re taking a bit of a risk, but now I don’t really think; there is no thought, really. It just either feels right or it doesn’t and I don’t dwell on it either way.

THERAPIST: Did you tell her you’re an artist?

CLIENT: Yeah. For the last year or two I’ve been – yeah. I don’t make qualms anymore. I’m like, “Yeah, I went to Harvard.” I don’t feel weird about it. You seem douchier if you do. I’ve even overheard people say that. They don’t like it when people way later slip it in that they went to Harvard. [00:19:06] That’s where you went to school. Don’t try to act like – do you know what I mean? Just say what it is. Yeah, I was like, “My book came out.” Whatever. These are just things I did.

THERAPIST: It’s you.

CLIENT: Yeah. So . . . (pause) I don’t know. (pause) The only thing that I think is tricky is that I do worry that I’ve lost the ability – I don’t know if I ever had the ability – to decide. [00:19:59] I can’t decide like, “This girl. I’m going to date this girl.” I’ve realized I don’t have that. I’m becoming okay with not having that ability, but that’s the problem with if you bloom late in life then you’re constantly like shit. I want to experience more things. Then that possibility problem is like well, damn. That means I could really probably find the kind of girl that I want. That’s the only thing I don’t like.

THERAPIST: I think when you’re talking about difficulty deciding, it relates even more to where you don’t yet feel like you know yourself well enough; like it’s not coming yet from a place all the time where it’s just trusting. [00:21:01] Like if you’re feeling like you want to date this person, then you do; and if you don’t think that you don’t, then you don’t. Really, really knowing yourself as opposed to knowing what you were supposed to do.

CLIENT: I know myself, but I think what I’m saying is because it’s years and years of idealizing. Now I’m the opposite. Now I’m worried. I’m confused. It’s like yeah, I should date this girl. I don’t know how to explain it. If a part of me says, “I like her but I don’t know if this is going to be a long-term thing,” a part of me will say, “Is that because you still have these idealized – you don’t want a Samantha-type whack job.” That’s the problem.

THERAPIST: Is it that or is it that you really realize that this is not someone who you would fall in love with? [00:22:04]

CLIENT: Right. I can’t tell. Yeah, I can’t tell. That’s the problem.

THERAPIST: I think that’s happening everywhere, right? Even Assyria is that idea and idealization.

CLIENT: But that doesn’t feel like this, though. This feels more like I’ve got that under control because I see that. I’m like yeah, I’m not going to get there and things are going to be . . . But when it’s a human being, you’re talking about intimacy and dating and effort and energy. Then you might hurt them or whatever. I don’t know. When it’s just you deciding whether you take this job or that job, you can think that out and that’s a little different; but with dating that’s one place where, because of all this stuff, even though now I feel great – let’s say on a date – then I can’t quite . . . Do you know what I mean? [00:23:05] It’s like this is great, but . . . I don’t know how to explain it. It’s as if I’m just . . .

THERAPIST: It’s like in that realm you’re saying you don’t quite know what reality is; what is going to happen?

CLIENT: Yes, because now it’s the opposite. I don’t trust my own what kind of woman I want or whatever. I don’t trust that because I don’t know if that exists. I don’t know if I’m doing the same old thing, but now in a different way that I think is healthy but is really just the same. When I think of the kind of woman that I really, really would want, that’s hard to find – a woman that’s cosmopolitan, maybe has an EU passport but is also pretty American. (chuckles) That’s a tall order. That’s not easy to find and it’s certainly not easy to find in Darien, so really then what am I . . . ? Do you know what I mean? [00:24:04]

THERAPIST: That’s important. It might not be that that woman doesn’t exist, but it could take a long time to find her. It could take moving to find her.

CLIENT: That’s what I’m saying.

THERAPIST: That’s the part that’s reality.

CLIENT: Maybe in that part I am trusting it. Maybe my feeling is right now this isn’t a time for a serious thing.

THERAPIST: Because . . ?

CLIENT: Because of that. Because everything else is coming together, I want to give myself time in this phase. (pause) Exactly because of that – that I don’t quite trust, now that I have a better idea of the kind of person that I would really think about getting really serious with, I don’t want to just jump into something. [00:24:58]

THERAPIST: Any old relationship.

CLIENT: That doesn’t mean you can’t date.

THERAPIST: It doesn’t mean you can’t date; also I think you’re still working on why that person is [ ] (inaudible at 00:25:08). You’ve been saying a lot lately that “whenever I’m [ ] I’m thinking why am I relating to this?” Like going to San Diego for that wedding. You were going out to San Diego and you decided not to go that weekend. I think it’s like this is the next direction, thinking why did you even go on a date last night? Why did you go back to your place? Why haven’t you called her yet? Why have you not called her yet? Why is it that woman? It’s a little uncertain what the real motivations are.

CLIENT: It’s always a little uncertain what people’s motivations are, though. I don’t think you can get a really clear answer.

THERAPIST: That’s why you’re here.

CLIENT: (sniggers) Yeah. Yeah. (pause) [00:26:01]

THERAPIST: But if you’ll even take what you just described about what you want, why that?

CLIENT: Yeah, that’s different in terms of the woman that I’m seeing. That’s what I’m trying to say. I worry, but that sounds kind of like an idealized kind of . . . That’s not an easy type of person to find.

THERAPIST: Is someone like [Julia?] Is that kind of . . ?

CLIENT: Yes, exactly. Someone like Julia, except not Julia.

THERAPIST: What do you mean? Except more or less what?

CLIENT: She was so reserved. Sex was weird for her. She didn’t have a ton of issues, but she was a little too dramatic. It was hard to have a real deep conversation. It was hard for her. She was just a little too stoic. [00:27:06]

THERAPIST: You’re wanting someone who can make real emotional contact.

CLIENT: Yeah. What the fuck is the point? Otherwise I could just sleep around or just go on dates. If I’m going to spend my time without feeling like I’m wasting my time on a relationship, it’s got to be a much deeper connection. Everything else about her was perfect. She lives in Berlin and has this wonderful little family in this beautiful town in Germany. Their lifestyle – just everything – I love that; but it’s got to be someone that’s not going to be weird about sex or just be able to have really deep conversations. [00:28:08] The other thing I didn’t like about her was that she would often be a contrarian. I do not fucking like that. I’m an intense person. I have opinions. I fucking love to judge. You can’t take that too seriously. For me it’s just a pastime and it’s a hobby and it’s funny a lot of times. Other times I am intense. I have strong feelings so I don’t like it if someone immediately says the opposite. You’ve got to engage and just talk because I don’t do that. I just kind of listen and I’ll jokingly maybe disagree or I’ll just – whatever. I don’t like people that are immediately . . .

THERAPIST: Other people, like with Samantha, you didn’t feel an emotional connection with her. [00:29:02]

CLIENT: In a weird way I felt more of an emotional connection with her than with Julia. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Than with Julia. Would it work for you now with her [ ] (inaudible at 00:29:10)?

CLIENT: Who knows what would happen now? With her, I think the only thing that happened was I too quickly confessed my love for her and all that shit. I was already in a bad place, so I think – I don’t want to say I was needy because that’s not fair to me. I don’t think I was being – but yeah, I was in a tough place. That never came up, that it was kind of casual. She was my girlfriend, so that’s what you do – at least I do. [00:30:04] In a weird way we did, but her problem was she then totally pulled back and just closed down and whatever happened. Before that, it was way more. I felt a great connection for her.

THERAPIST: Contact. In other words, deep emotional conversations.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. We really . . . But I think that was the problem. I think it just freaked her out. Maybe she thought we were just going to be hook-up friends. Who knows? Because we hooked up the first date. She took me back to her place, so maybe in her mind it was never going to be as serious as it was to me; but she kind of went with it because she was into it but then she wasn’t. Do you know what I mean? [00:31:04] We were both, I think, not in the right place and she just handled it worse than I did. That’s the only difference. I would have at least, as hurt as I was, if she continued to talk to me, that would have been a little different, but it was just so shitty the way that it happened. I was going through such a tough time that this one lifeline was just gone, so it was just bad. (pause) I think the real question is: is the girl that I’m now thinking of, have I concocted this thing because it’s difficult? I’ll either never find that or . . . Do you know what I mean? That’s my pattern, clearly. I never commit to anything and the one or two times I want to, there are a million red flags saying that you shouldn’t. That’s the part that I’m becoming okay with. Maybe I just don’t want to right now. Maybe I like being alone most of the time and I just, once in a while, want to hang out with somebody. [00:32:59]

THERAPIST: Like maybe you don’t want to get married.

CLIENT: Right now, at least, maybe. It has to be someone that just so blows me away, but usually I’m just like okay. This is really fun, but now I’m ready to be home alone with the cat and I’m just comfortable. (long pause) [00:33:57]

THERAPIST: Even the way you describe the woman who you date right now, it’s such an image that doesn’t have actually what the day-to-day grind would look like once you’re in the relationship. Do you know what I mean? Like what happens six months into it? When does it get messy? When do you [get tired?] (ph?)

CLIENT: But that’s what I’m saying. Then I would find a way to – you know.

THERAPIST: Right. So everything looks great.

CLIENT: Julia is a great example. That was another one where I just slowly tapered off. I just broke up with her, but why really? She was committed. She wanted to move to Darien. She would have totally married me. Wasn’t that perfect?

THERAPIST: Something else is going on.

CLIENT: Exactly. Exactly. Wasn’t that perfect? She’s a hot little blond girl. [00:35:02] What’s the fucking problem? That’s exactly what I’m saying. Somehow there will be something.

THERAPIST: Even if it takes three or six months to find it, people are inevitably disappointed in each other.

CLIENT: Yes. Yes. (pause)

THERAPIST: I don’t know if you’ve ever thought about it if it’s happening when that starts to happen, the idealization starts to fall, what’s happening inside you that makes you then just disappear?

CLIENT: Then I get into super practical. I start coming up with, like with Julia, the sex thing. I was like why? [00:36:02] Again, I know we all have issues, but fuck. Come on. And then the contrarian thing and that kind of overly-stoic kind of thing. Those things were already kind of bothering me. Then I got into these practicalities. Okay, she came to Darien. I don’t have any money. How are we going to do this? I start finding legitimate things, but they are things that you’ve . . .

THERAPIST: Where there’s a will there’s a way.

CLIENT: Of course! Of course.

THERAPIST: You once said something about Julia. Maybe it wasn’t about her – her not wanting to have sex was hurtful.

CLIENT: That was probably Meredith. Julia wasn’t bad. Meredith had had anorexia. She had body issues. With Julia, too, but not as . . . [00:37:08]

THERAPIST: When, if she starts to fall from grace, I also wonder if another counterpart anxiety that can grow about what will she see in you – just that you got anxious with Meredith about her not wanting to have sex. Does that mean something about you instead of that it just means something about her?

CLIENT: That’s what I mean. That’s what I’m totally saying. That’s the sad part now. I see that. Of course, yes, it is about her, but I totally made it about me. I allowed those stupid voices, instead of stopping and saying, “Wait a second. No woman or man is going to fucking uproot themselves and come to this fucking God-forsaking, drizzled, grey hell because they’re not attracted to you.” [00:38:05] It makes me cringe when I think of it now. It’s ridiculous. (pause) That one really hurts. That one, it’s hard. That’s a tough one. I think of all of them, the Meredith one is going to be one of those regrets that I just have and I just have to deal with it, because she was great. She was a really cool person. There were issues, but again what I’m saying is that if I had handled it differently, maybe it still wouldn’t have worked out, but it would have not worked out in a more . . .

THERAPIST: It’s a different path.

CLIENT: A different pathway.

THERAPIST: [Because with her anorexia. There is no sex drive with anorexia. It’s very, very common.] (ph?)

CLIENT: And also it just makes me feel like an asshole. I wasn’t there for her. Obviously, that’s a serious thing. I thought I was being there for her, but I wasn’t. [00:39:06] That one just fucking sucks. It just sucks. (pause) That’s almost where I try not to even think about it. It drives me crazy because, really, she was perfect. It’s hard for me to take that. She was young and gorgeous and amazing. She was amazing. Yeah, she had fucking flaws, but we all do. Her flaws, obviously, didn’t stop her from totally committing and wanting to get married.

THERAPIST: She’s married now?

CLIENT: She has a kid, yeah. [00:40:01] (chuckles) That part was also hurtful, but yeah. (pause) That is one thing that I was like maybe it wasn’t going to work out because that happened so quickly after we broke up. To get pregnant so quickly after a break-up, that is odd to me because that’s a very serious thing. That still makes me pause for a little bit. Regardless, that has nothing to do with it. It just was a totally mishandled . . . (pause)

THERAPIST: It feels [ ] (inaudible at 00:40:47)

CLIENT: 2:20. Thanks, Claire. See you later.

END TRANSCRIPT