TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Alright. So, next week we are...

CLIENT: Off Friday.

THERAPIST: Off, okay.

CLIENT: No. I think there's a Friday at 11:00 or something like that.

THERAPIST: Okay. Next week Friday is the 28th.

CLIENT: I have Friday at 11:10 on my calendar.

THERAPIST: Okay. Right. [00:01:05]

CLIENT: I don't even know where to start. I finally got in touch with my friend, Brian.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And he was just like really defensive and aggressive and awful and just he kept demanding to know who I was talking to that I heard these stories. I was like it doesn't Tomer. Well, one person who has told me some of the story begged me not to tell him that I had talked to her because she's afraid of him.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: He apparently owns her former web site's domain name because she forgot to bring the wick and it expired and he sniped it and he's threatened her before with like just putting up horrible pornography of her and photo shopped crap if she ever upsets him. That's sort of a bad sign. [00:02:10]

Yeah, I obviously didn't want to put any of the girlfriend, Stacen's, like closest friends in the line of fire. So, I kept trying to tell him that it doesn't Tomer. Especially since half the story took place on like public chat channels where no, I wasn't logged in when the conversations were happening, but they're public and like it's -

THERAPIST: So, that means anybody can see them?

CLIENT: Yeah, and also like it's a known and accepted thing in the culture of it is that like there are probably 50 people logging every channel and sharing logs. Putting logs up on file servers. So, like there's a culture for just logging everything and having this to refer back to. So, you can rely on that logged in, even though I didn't even have access at the time. Like the worst of the stuff went down. I have a long story of the server I used to use crashed and like because an undergrad beat it with a baseball bat, not realizing that it was an actual person's computer and not junk and just like. [00:03:10]

Anyway, so I didn't have access for about three months, but, like there are still logs, right? So, and I kept trying to say, you know, that it doesn't Tomer and he kept stonewalling and not talking until I told him who and finally I was like look, Brian, everyone you know has been talking about this. Like, literally a dozen people or more that I know of and I don't know that many people because I'm something of an introvert. And then he refused to answer any of my direct questions. Like, you know, I said Stacen claims that you tried to rape her and made an audio recording of this. Is that true? And he just refused to answer or like Stacen claims that you kept sleeping with your ex even after she asked you not to and she considered that a serious boundary violation and is that true? He just refused to answer and it was just And then he accused her of gas lighting him and he accused her of being verbally abusive. He accused her of stealing his drugs. When actually his best friend confirmed that no, actually he was the one stealing her drugs, not the other way around. And then he said, you know, I think I'm going to have to just confront Stacen about these lies she's telling about me and he started IM-ing her.

THERAPIST: Yikes. [00:04:30]

CLIENT: Yeah. It was really ugly. And then, but then he tried to turn it around and said you know, thank you so much for telling me. You're my only real friend left. Like, I had no idea if people were talking about me and I hate when people talk about me behind my back, so I'm really grateful you're looking out for my interests there by telling me. I was like I'm pretty sure that's not why I called about.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It was just really, really upsetting. I mean I knew before I talked to him that the odds that he would say anything even remotely close to like actual remorse and agreement to like go get help for. Those odds were very, very low. But still, it's pretty awful. [00:05:45]

THERAPIST: I guess I'm not yet sure what to say except for yup.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:06:50] There's that and then tomorrow I have plans to go hot tubbing with some friends and I had originally invited Edson, who I think I've discussed a little bit here. He's the guy who I was previously seeing for like a month and a half. You know, like we had this horrible conversation and we haven't spoken for like two and a half weeks. So, I don't know if he's going to show up or not. I don't know if I want him to show up or not.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Because, you know, with two and a half weeks of like, of not talking to him and not physically being in his presence and not having my mind clouded by lust and being charmed by him because he's really quite a charming conversationalist. But like going back and thinking about some of the things he said, like, there have been a couple of things where I've said that might actually be a red flag, but I'm not sure. So, I've been getting myself more and more worked up and anxious about will he show up? Will he not show up? Do I even want him to show up? I don't know. I just kind of imagine in my head all the ways that it could play out if he does show up to go hot tubbing naked with me and my, you know, four other of my close friends. [00:08:10]

THERAPIST: What are you imagining?

CLIENT: If he shows up, do I act like I'm surprised to see him there? Do I act like I expected to see him there? I don't know. Social situations are very upsetting and anxiety inducing for me, even in the best of circumstances. So, I'll often like roll play conversations in my mind like starting from, you know, someone walking in a door and like trying to kind of coach myself in to okay, what's the socially acceptable facial expression to have here? What do I say? Everything down to like hi, how are you? Come on in. May I take your coat? Like the stuff that I practice inside my head.

THERAPIST: I see. Yeah. Right and this would be more challenging than that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:09:35]

CLIENT: So, there's that going on and then there's, I'm mentioning Tom, the guy who I have a kind of ongoing casual relationship with. Who really trampled on a bunch of boundaries at the last party at my house.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: So, I was talking to one of my, my closest friends from college. A woman named Jodie. She was my little sibling in our fraternity. We've known each other like ten years now. And she also has a relationship with Tom and she said, you know, that she has also been experiencing him like trampling all over her boundaries and she doesn't know what to do either because Tom's very submissive sexually and Jodie and I are both fairly dominant and so we're both concerned that if we like bring this up, no one will believe us, because like we're known to be awfully assertive and toppy and I mean Tom is submissive and younger than both of us. [00:10:45]

But, at least I know it's not all in my head. That someone else is experiencing the same thing with him. Just like pushing at boundaries and pushing at boundaries and pushing at boundaries and just being. So, I don't know. Like all three of those situations all kind of colliding at the same time just kind of has me sick of men and not wanting any men around me at all, ever anymore. I'm kind of sick of thinking about relationships and relationship violence and boundaries and where to draw them and how to defend them and like I just want this not to be an issue for me anymore.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, the sort of title that occurred to me was like the men who push boundaries and the woman who's really fucking sick of it.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean I don't have any illusions that women don't do this shit either. Like, I've had relationships before like that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean I realize women can behave badly and do behave badly in relationships. I don't want to be all patriarchal and gender normative about all these men who are violent or aggressive. [00:12:25]

THERAPIST: I guess the other thing about it and I think you may feel some of it here as well is that it sounds as though you are feeling in a fairly like passive relationship in these situations. Like, that you're kind of stuck with them and you feel sort of passive I think and helpless as well as really angry about it and sick of it.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: And I'm not saying that there's some obvious active thing you could be doing that you're not.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: I'm just talking about what I imagine another sort of common aspect of the experience of each of them. Does that make sense? [00:13:30]

CLIENT: Yes. And I need to figure out scheduling and schedule a video chat with some of the other people who care about the Brian situation and just like we've been dithering over what we think the best thing for us to do is. Some of us, myself included, think the thing to do is just get him committed to drug rehab because that's, I don't know if it's the cause of the problems, of his problems with women or a symptom of underlying problems that are also causing his problems with women or if it's just a confounding factor. Like, he's, his drug use is even more out of control now than it has been in the past and that's not okay. But not everyone in our circle is on board with that. Obviously, there's not much I can do to get him in to rehab from three thousand miles away.

THERAPIST: Right. [00:14:35]

CLIENT: It would require someone who's actually there to be on board.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But some people are afraid that if they do that, then police will get involved and then other people in our social circle will also get stung by that.

THERAPIST: Is it even possible to do that? Like have somebody forcibly committed.

CLIENT: Yes. Or so I have been told by a friend who's an EMT there.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay. I'm sure he knows better than me. Yeah.

CLIENT: But because a number of people I know are casual drug users and some of them are even drug producers. Like, small scale and not the really nasty stuff, but still. No one's willing to risk other friends getting caught and potentially, you know, thrown in jail or whatever. And I guess that is a valid concern. So, I don't know. But, I tried burgeoning the topic of therapy with him individually and he was just like, like, he actually got really disgustingly sexist about it. Like, only women need therapists because women can't handle their emotions because women are, I don't know, weak and he's not weak. He just needs more booze and electronica or I don't, I don't even know. So, yeah, the odds of him actually seeing a therapist without being coerced in to it are -

THERAPIST: Zero? [00:16:30]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Is this tough stuff to talk about? I could imagine it probably is.

CLIENT: I'm afraid tempting to get side tracked in to, you know, a rant about how our culture is such that we've convinced men, like, as a whole, that men shouldn't have emotions and shouldn't feel emotions and emotions are for women. There's, you know, a whole critique of the culture we live in there, but I don't think it would do me any good to go in to that critique right now. I suspect you've probably heard it before. Possibly even from me, but I can't remember for sure. [00:17:50]

THERAPIST: That would put you back on the offensive.

CLIENT: It's a much more comfortable place for me to be.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I wonder what's so uncomfortable about the other?

CLIENT: You know, apart from feeling powerless and feeling vulnerable.

THERAPIST: That will work if that's what it is. Yeah. Do you feel any of that in relation to me with the sort of topics and events on the table? [00:19:15]

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Be more vulnerable, or?

CLIENT: No. So, are you familiar with the concept of appropriated outrage?

THERAPIST: I know what it means, but go ahead.

CLIENT: So, when someone appropriates outrage over an offense directed towards someone not themselves. So, a classic example. A couple years ago I had a friend who went to a Christian university. Like a small, Methodist run Liberal Arts College and they had a big Christmas tree in the library and this like white, Christian boy got really, really upset. Where's the menorah? Why isn't there a menorah? Oh my goodness, this is so offensive to Jews. Well, you know, the campus hello group was like whatever, it's a Christian university. We knew that when you came here. [00:20:25]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So, that would be an example of appropriated outrage. So, there's this woman in my social circle named Katie who I've known since we were freshmen. And we've never gotten along. She has a great deal of charisma and just social presence and cult of personality and I don't understand. I don't think she's a good person. I don't think she's an interesting person. She's kind of a mess. She's clingy and needy and whiny and pathetic and I don't like her at all. But lots of people do and for a long time a big part of why I didn't like her was just straight up jealousy. She got, you know, when she was having difficulty with her parents she got love and support and when I was having difficulty with my parents, I got made fun of. When she was having difficulties with an abusive boyfriend, she got love and help and support and when I was in an abusive relationship people told me I should stay with him because no one else would love me as much as he did. [00:21:30]

THERAPIST: That's bad.

CLIENT: Yeah. Those people are not part of my life anymore. I found better friends.

THERAPIST: That's terrific. Yeah.

CLIENT: But, like I worked through a lot of the jealousy and I don't think I'm jealous of her anymore, but I still, I don't like her very much and I don't think I ever will. And she doesn't like me very much. I don't think she ever will. She thinks that I'm haughty and arrogant and too full of myself and too mean and too aggressive and those might be valid criticisms. She's certainly not the only person who thinks that about me, but she was the person who went down to help Stacen change her locks and ship Brian's stuff. And she's just been having a very public meltdown over how much she loved Brian and how much this is a betrayal for her and how she never would have expected that from him and I kind of just want to say look motherfucker, you have hated Brian for the last 12 years. You and Brian have always hated each other. Don't even like try to pretend. Like, and like all the old jealousy is coming back because a lot of people are providing her with love and support and like this must be such a shock to you. How could he? Like, you must feel so betrayed.

THERAPIST: So, appropriated outrage at her sort of appropriated for the purpose of like dramatic spectacle and getting attention? Is that the theme? [00:23:10]

CLIENT: Right. Whereas, I actually have been friends with him since we were 17 and I actually am deeply hurt and I can't say I haven't been getting any love and support, because I have. I just haven't been talking about it in public places the way Katie has. Like I haven't been, I didn't talk about it at the party last weekend. I haven't been talking about it on public chat channels. I've been talking about it in private chats. I've been talking about it over coffee with friends. So, there hasn't been this huge, public out pouring.

THERAPIST: But I imagine you feel a number of the things she's sort of professing to feel.

CLIENT: Yes. I do. But my point is there hasn't been a public out pouring of support for me because I haven't asked for it. So, it's a little bit ridiculous to be jealous because she's getting something I'm not getting because it's not something that I asked for and I really don't want to turn my feelings in to this huge public spectacle. Like, that would make me feel very vulnerable and unhappy actually, if I talked about all this in public.

THERAPIST: Right. I would imagine you'd want both. [00:24:25]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Which is to say like, to feel, you know, say you're insecure with this and not too exposed and vulnerable and yet to get vast amounts of support and affection and care.

CLIENT: But those are mutually exclusive.

THERAPIST: But it's not. At least in my mind, it doesn't seem unreasonable at some level to want it.

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: I take your point. That's sort of tactically hard to have because you can't have both.

CLIENT: But it's just, I just want to go over and hit her because this, this isn't her pain and yeah. And then I worry that maybe I'm appropriating the pain outreach here because I live three thousand miles away. I'm not part of the circle of friends who actually have to like deal with either Brian or Stacen face to face. Like, I'm not... [00:25:35]

THERAPIST: It's just hard for you to be really upset about it.

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: I think it's hard for you to be really upset about it. In other words, I think the feelings are there. I don't mean it's, you know, like, in a way it's a little easier to be reasonably outraged at her for what she's doing and how disingenuous she is. To worry that maybe there's something not right about your feelings or to go on a tirade about sort of men and feelings and boundaries and culture. You're really upset. I mean this is really disturbing.

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: I didn't sort of see in your when you describe it, but it comes to me when you describe the conversation with him sounds awful. Really upsetting. He was like, as it sounded to me, like a thousand miles away from you in this conversation. You know, like, this is not your, like, a friend that you could connect with. It was a pretty disturbing experience I think. [00:26:45]

CLIENT: Even worse was, as you said, he was a thousand miles away from me. He thought that we were connecting and having an intimate conversation. And that's, like it was pretty clear that that's what he thought was going on. He even said exclusively at a couple of points. You know, I'm so glad we're having this conversation. You're such a good friend. I'm so glad you're here for me. And that was not, that was not the reason for the conversation at all.

THERAPIST: Different places hearing about what you're talking about. And I think it was probably frightening for you to talk here about how disturbing it was in the moment. I think you feel really sort of opened up and I would guess that you anticipate one of us or both of us would be very critical of you at a moment when you were quite open.

CLIENT: How did you guess?

THERAPIST: I don't know. It's just came to me. [00:28:30]

CLIENT: That reminds me of something minor. Last night, I found a brand new sketch book sitting on the kitchen table. So, I asked Mike, did you buy this sketch book? He said sure. He's like I wanted journal and that's what it's for. And I'm like you realize I have like five blank books sitting on my desk. You could have grabbed any of them. He was like yeah, but they're all lined. It's like they all have lined paper and I would prefer my journal to have unlined paper. I was like, what, how can you draw without lines? He was like, you know what, you should tell this to your shrink and ask him if he is at all surprised.

THERAPIST: Did you respond to him?

CLIENT: Yeah. You don't look surprised.

THERAPIST: I'm not that surprised. I guess the other side of it is like, you know, sometimes it's nice to be known. You know?

CLIENT: But still a thing that I'm not used to. The fact that people actually know me because that didn't; I didn't have that when I was a kid because we moved so often. No one really got to know me and my parents. I might as well be a space alien for all my parents understand me. You know? [00:30:00]

THERAPIST: My question was that was one of the first people to know you really well is the woman that you are close to who died.

CLIENT: Yes. Her and Brian. It's really. I feel like this is awfully selfish of me considering all the trauma Stacen has been through, but part of what's upsetting me the most about those whole situation is that Brian is the only person left from when I was in high school who actually really knows me. And I felt like the last conversation I had with him, he didn't know me anymore. He wasn't reading me at all. And usually he's really good at pin pointing the subtext and my moods and how I'm feeling and he was just off by so much and I really miss that.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I bet.

CLIENT: I mean it's not like I don't have other friends who know me probably as well, but no one who has known me as long. I mean, we have so much history. I promised myself I was done crying over it. [00:32:00]

THERAPIST: I guess you're probably not really all that close to being done crying and being upset over this. In some way I hope I certainly I hope I am, but I don't know. It's not like it's really been going on that long and he's somebody who's pretty important in your life and gone down in this really awful way and I imagine you're not all that sure that you could or even necessarily want to have back. [00:34:50]

CLIENT: I don't think I can. And when I say I promised myself I wouldn't cry over him anymore, I don't think I quite meant wouldn't continue to be upset and frustrated and angry.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Just like literally not going to do it. No more tears. And I thought maybe in a literal way, not a metaphorical way. I actually covered before I have issues with crying.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I understand. [00:36:00]

CLIENT: I mean I guess I see a little crying as a sign of weakness and that is a loss of control. Because I can't cry voluntarily. I think most people, except trained actors, can't make tears fall voluntarily, so it's very much a, like I've lost control with my physical self and it was very distressing to me, but. Having these emotions that I can't control that then cause these physical reactions that I can't control and yeah. I don't like it one bit. [00:37:20]

THERAPIST: Which is actually a little different from it's weak or it makes you weak. You know, like they're both negative things you talk about, but I guess I imagine seeing it as weak as a kind of way of distancing yourself. Or like just leaving it whereas saying you don't like it sounds much more like an immediate reaction in a way. I got an eye roll there.

CLIENT: Well, I just, I don't see the distinction you're trying to draw.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Sorry. I don't mean to roll my eyes at you. [00:38:20]

THERAPIST: It's okay. I'm fine.

CLIENT: But I really don't understand the point you're making.

THERAPIST: Okay. Sure. Kind of becomes a little more defensive to me whereas saying you really don't like it sounds like it acknowledges a little more what's really going on.

CLIENT: But I don't like it because it's a weakness.

THERAPIST: I imagine you don't like it because you feel out of control and there's a lot of things that go along with it that you don't like that happen to be your vulnerability.

CLIENT: All of which get lumped together in my head as being weak.

THERAPIST: How?

CLIENT: Because being strong is being in control. So, the opposite must be true. [00:39:10]

THERAPIST: Is this something you actually really believe or is this something that you sort of believe at one level, but don't maybe don't necessarily believe all around? Do you know what I mean? I could explain that better for you if you'd like.

CLIENT: It's something that I definitely feel. It's also something that I have critiqued, but on some level I know is borderline crazy pants.

THERAPIST: I would not put it that way, but okay.

CLIENT: But it is something that I, that deep down I do believe even though I'd like to not believe that.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Does that make sense?

THERAPIST: I think so. Do you know, do you know why you think that's true?

CLIENT: Maybe the question I would answer is because my parents told me it was true, but no, beyond that I don't know. [00:40:00]

THERAPIST: It's just something that feels true. Okay, I guess probably without really realizing it, I've sort of had the final model of it which may or may not be true, but it's just to say what I'm thinking. Calling it weak. I imagine calling it weak and being critical of it in that way is sort of part of how you try to keep yourself from being that way. Or it's a way that you feel critical of yourself when you have gotten upset. And, you know, that's painful and that sucks I would imagine too. I guess it precisely adds insult to injury and I guess my point is it's easier to focus on the insult and to identify with the insult than with the injury. [00:41:10]

Now, you know, part of the historical reason may be because your parents told you it was weak, but I guess I imagine that that is one thing that you may continue to do for you in the present in a way. If that makes sense.

CLIENT: Yeah, it does make sense.

THERAPIST: We should stop. Have a good holiday.

CLIENT: Thank you. You too.

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