TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
CLIENT: Yep. Oh man, oh man. (sigh) (pause) So, I don’t know. I’m trying. I’m doing my best. I’m definitely in a bad way, but I don’t know. I went to Leo’s yesterday. That was nice. It made me feel better. (pause) Yeah. Because yesterday I had a mini blowout with my Mom. [00:01:00]
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: I mean I think it was something I was too optimistic. I was just being hopeful that I had found a way that worked for her and me where she would But now that this hasn’t worked it is like kind of back to square one.
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: So any ideas I have, “Condo is this,” she is totally resistant and she finds something negative. One minute she thinks it is a good idea and then she doesn’t. She doesn’t want to do it. And yesterday I was just like, “What the?” She was like, “You know, I don’t “ She was like, “I’m okay. I’m getting by. You know.” “Then what are you complaining about?” I was like, “You complain nonstop? What do you mean you’re getting by?”
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: And then she was like, “You know, if you just moved down here then we would have all that rental income from,” bah, bah, bah. And I just lost it. I was like, “You know what?” I was like, “Why don’t you move?” I was like, “Why don’t you move? How are you helping the overall financial situation by living in an 1,800 dollar apartment when you have a meager pension and you complain about money?” [00:02:10]
I said, “Why the fuck should I move?” So I have to give up any semblance of any comfort whatsoever and live in a little room with my fucking dementia grandmother. So basically lose my mind.
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: So I felt bad saying that. But I was like, “Dude!” I was almost going to say, “Listen, man. Other people who are in their seventies move out and they go to little apartments or whatever and they downsize. Unless they are fucking rich. Or even when they are rich. I mean, they just downsize and they simplify things. And you want to live in this fucking place but you also want to complain about money.” It’s like that’s You know.
So (sigh) it’s just, I don’t know. Then of course I felt I mean, it is her house. She can do whatever the fuck she wants. But, you know, it is kind of my house too, a little bit. At least a little bit. [00:03:14]
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: You know, so it’s like, what the fuck? (pause) But see this is what they do. I mean, if it was always your house, if that is the card you are going to play, then that is what it always should have been?
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: Do you know what I’m saying? You can’t help someone or want to help or want to be there for someone, but then play the “it’s my house” card.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: That is the problem with these things. You know? And I mean, you know, there is really only one solution. Either she is just not going to be around anymore and then that is different.
But I have to just find this way that I am saying someone to just, a private bank, some kind of institution or investor or private person to just basically give me just a, it is a black and white loan. You know? It’s like, I’m going to take that money, I’m going to buy this and I’m going to pay you back with these terms or whatever. Because there is really nothing left to do here. I can’t [00:04:16]
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: You know. She doesn’t want to sell the whole house, she doesn’t want to sell condos, she just wants to sit there in her apartment. So I am just being more blunt with her now. I was like, “Dude, don’t tell me anymore to get married, to this.” I was like, “You don’t know what the fuck you are saying?”
Get married and what? And say what? “I live with my Mom who has no “ I mean, what am I supposed to tell people. Do you know what I mean? Like who the fuck would want to marry someone who is in this kind of situation. I don’t even mean that in a pathetic way, I just mean it in a practical way.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Why the fuck? Why would they? Would I? If some woman was like, “Yeah, I live in a room with my Mom.” I’d think about it. I mean, if I was so in love with her and if I thought You know, I wouldn’t be an asshole about it. But it would be a big mark against her, kind of. That, “What is going on here?” You know? [00:05:22]
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: So I’ve been like, you know, “Don’t talk to me anymore about that shit.” You can’t. Like who is going to pay for all that? How am I supposed to -
THERAPIST: There needs to be income.
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.
THERAPIST: That is what has to happen.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: That’s ordinary. I mean, most people work eight hour per day jobs.
CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
THERAPIST: In order to pay for their homes.
CLIENT: Well that was the other thing. She was like, “Then you need to find a job.” I’m like, “Dude.” Which all makes it worse of course. Like, “What the fuck do you think I’m doing?” If I was getting a job, don’t you think I would have said something?” Of course. They are just so It is so dysfunctional. You know? Instead of like -
Just telling me things I already fucking know and like, “What are you? Of course I have got to find a job.” Like what? But I’m trying to think of something bigger than that that is also a different kind of solution.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: That’s both The amazing thing is it benefits her really.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: You know?
THERAPIST: You mean getting a loan?
CLIENT: Anything. All these things I am thinking of benefit both of us. It is not like I am out in some selfish, you know, whatever. She is the one complaining nonstop about money which makes me feel like shit and stresses me out even more. [00:06:37]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: So I am trying to think of ways where in her retirement she can just fucking relax and shut the fuck up.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: So if you don’t want to let me help you then you can’t be a douche about it. You can’t throw stupid things in my face like, “Well, you have got to get a job.” Well, “No fucking shit.”
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: I mean, (pause) whatever. I just clearly, just like I did with PhD thing, I have just got reprioritize slightly and just, I mean.
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: Not that I am doing anything different. I am looking for a job but now I have to emotionally switch to being like that is just what is probably going to I just, hopefully at some point I am going to get one of these jobs and that this other plan will happen at some point I guess. [00:07:39]
THERAPIST: Even just as a filler income.
CLIENT: Filler what?
THERAPIST: Filler income. I think you would feel so much calmer if there were filler income right now.
CLIENT: Well yeah. Yeah, but see that is the thing. Of course. But I am applying to all kinds of Everything I am applying to is filler income.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: I don’t think I have applied to anything in the last -
THERAPIST: And it is weird. You haven’t heard back from a single job for six months? That is really odd.
CLIENT: What do you mean hear back? As in like an interview?
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: No, no interviews. But, yeah, I have heard back like, you know, “We are going to keep this on file.”
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: Or it just doesn’t quite match what, you know. Why is that shocking?
THERAPIST: From how many jobs? Like how many jobs do you [think you have applied for] (ph)?
CLIENT: How many jobs? I don’t know. A bunch of jobs every week that I am applying to.
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: I mean, I don’t know what the math is on that.
THERAPIST: Every week you have applied though?
CLIENT: Well, of course.
THERAPIST: I don’t know. You haven’t told me about it so I don’t know.
CLIENT: Well, what is there to say if that is what you do, right?
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: That is how I found that job. I mean that is what you do if you get a job.
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: I mean, see this is the whole problem is that this is what I kind of am done with. Like it puts the onus on you. Somehow it is your fault if you are not hearing back or you are not. It’s not my fault. It is not my problem that things are really, really fucked up right now. [00:08:57]
THERAPIST: Yeah, but it is your responsibility to figure a way to take care of getting an income.
CLIENT: Right, but what else?
THERAPIST: It may not be your fault. Do you know what I mean?
CLIENT: Yeah. But what else could I be doing?
THERAPIST: I don’t know because I don’t know what you are doing. Maybe nothing. Maybe you are doing everything in your power.
CLIENT: Yeah. Am I applying at the coffee shop? No. So that is what is left.
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: I mean, yeah, I could just walk into a food store or whatever, and just fill out an application. Yeah, I haven’t been doing that.
THERAPIST: You have been applying to like teaching, that kind of jobs?
CLIENT: I have been applying Dude, I have been applying to anything that has anything remote something, anything.
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: Office jobs. Administrative jobs. Teaching jobs. Assistant Director to Nonprofit X, Y, Z jobs. I mean, yeah. I mean I have applied. Temp jobs. You know.
THERAPIST: Temp agencies you have gone too?
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: That is weird. You should be getting a call. Usually when you go to a temp agency they will call you within several weeks with a two day opening or something. [00:10:00]
CLIENT: Hm. Again, I think -
THERAPIST: You’ve gone down to a downtown agency and put in an application? CLIENT: Yeah. My friend knows someone.
THERAPIST: And taken all the tests and everything?
CLIENT: I haven’t done tests. But my friend knows someone who I went and I met with.
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: I mean, it is truly not that surprising. Why, if they have a pile of people, why are they going to call the dude that is in his forties almost done with a PhD to staple papers?
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: That doesn’t even make sense to me. They are going to look at their pile of all these unemployed fucking people and pick just any random twenty something year old (laughs) that needs a job. I think that is what is happening. They are just looking at it and just going, “But “
THERAPIST: It doesn’t add up to me. You are really qualified to do a number of different things. Somebody should be calling you.
CLIENT: I am qualified to do a number of different things.
THERAPIST: (laughs) Yeah.
CLIENT: But -
THERAPIST: Well educated, present well in person. It doesn’t make sense. (laughs)
CLIENT: Well, yeah. I mean, I don’t know what to say. Yeah, it doesn’t make sense. Lots of things don’t make sense.
THERAPIST: Mm. (pause) [00:11:10]
CLIENT: But yeah, see these are the things that don’t help. This is the problem. It makes you It does make you almost want to give up because you get so angry about this kind I mean when you feel like it is your fault somehow.
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: Then you’re like, “Fuck everybody. I don’t really give a fuck.” You know? Now I understand when they are talking about like, “Hundreds of thousands of people have given up looking for work.” (laughs) Some of those people are probably assholes or whatever, idiots, or they don’t have high school degrees or whatever they are. I don’t know what they are. But I kind of get it now. I do kind of get it.
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: You know? I mean it is like you really feel like a I mean, I get it. Like these are givens. We all have to work. We all need money. But it is not about those givens. It is about dignity and about not feeling like you are just some rat in a maze.
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: And you are somehow a douche bag because you can’t figure out how to get to the end of the maze to get your little piece of cheese that someone is throwing at you. That is not working for me. [00:12:10]
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: I mean, I am doing the best I can and I have some fucking dignity. I am educated. I went to, you know.
THERAPIST: And what does that mean, “I have dignity?” So, “I won’t do “
CLIENT: No it’s not that I won’t -
THERAPIST: (cross talking at 00:12:23)
CLIENT: Well, yeah. I haven’t walked into a coffee shop Donuts. Like that I won’t do yet. I have unemployment coming in. Because I have to give up my unemployment to work at there.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Right? They fuck you. So, “Oh you’re making 275 dollars a week? Sorry. That doesn’t work in our formula.” Well that doesn’t work for me. Like I would rather get by on my unemployment and have that dignity.
THERAPIST: Mm hm. Until it runs out, yeah.
CLIENT: I’m sorry.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: But no, I don’t just mean that. I just mean this idea that, I mean that is where we have gotten. Where people are like, the subtext, at least with my family, and well even here that is kind of how I feel here is that, “Why? How is it that you are not getting a job?”
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: It’s like that The question should be, “What is the fucking problem that this is the system we are in now?” That this is where we have gotten to. That highly qualified people have to beg and grovel to staple papers or whatever the fuck I am going to end up doing. [00:13:25]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: That is not my fucking issue. I mean I don’t know what else. I am applying to everything I am qualified for. And 99 percent of things I am over qualified for.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: I don’t know what to say other than that. And I am thinking of savvy things to do that would alleviate all this shit in a much bigger way.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: So, you know? I’m not a partying, I’m not a And I am trying to do a PhD. And I am trying to be a good artist. You know, I mean come on, man. Like I am tired of apologizing for shit. Everyone needs to look after their own business. But, you know, yet again now. Yeah, I am supposed to work on a PhD now? I am supposed to focus now. And the way I feel, you know, crank out a dissertation in six months or whatever.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: You know. (banging sound) So how am I supposed to feel? Of course I am fucking furious. And a part of me is like, “You know what? I don’t give a fuck. I just don’t give a fuck.”
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: I just don’t. You know what? I will wait until you die and then I will do what I need to do in my fifties and sixties. [00:14:28]
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: You know, when you feel like you are really being kind of, like somehow things are somehow directly or indirectly have to do with you, your action or inaction? It’s like, “Dude, I don’t think so, man.” Yeah, some people are lazy, I guess, or they don’t do this or they don’t do that. Or they only apply to jobs up here. But I am really doing my best.
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: You know? I don’t know what else I am supposed to be doing.
THERAPIST: Mm hm. You feel like I’m being your mother?
CLIENT: Well, no. But, yeah, it is I have gotten that sense from some people where they are just so shocked that, “Well, how could you not?” It’s like, “Have you looked at the unemployment?” What am I, the only person who doesn’t have a job? There are people who haven’t had jobs for three years. I mean this (laughs)
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: To me there is nothing shocking about this at all. I lost my job at a very bad time. And things really haven’t improved. I don’t give a shit what anybody is saying. I see what my friends are doing or how they are doing. Or even the ones with jobs are holding on for dear life, you know, for the most part. [00:15:35]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: So what is the shocking part here? Of course I’m not getting a job. If my little cousin took eight months or a year to get a job at the hiking store or whatever it was. (laughs) You know? Because people like me are working at there.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And, of course, something is just not right in the mechanism of how things work. So it is like a chain reaction. We are all just fucked in different ways. You know?
THERAPIST: So Brian (ph), when I am responding it is naively right now because I don’t go home and see with you what you are doing. How many calls you make per week, how many applications you put in, how many of those jobs do you follow up and persist and say, “I want an interview.”
Like that actually is what it takes to get a job, probably at any time. You know, unless the market is totally booming.
CLIENT: Well, yeah.
CLIENT: You have to be incredibly persistent.
CLIENT: Well, I mean, yeah. I mean I do that with the jobs I really want. I mean I don’t chase them down for like paper stapling jobs. [00:16:35]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: But, yeah, the jobs I have really wanted, I mean, of course. Again -
THERAPIST: And so even to get the paper stapling job you have to do that. Like that’s just kind of the way it works.
CLIENT: I don’t do that with them because I apply to so many. I don’t do that with a lot of them. But at the most I will just follow up and say, “Hey, hoping you got my CV,” or whatever. Yeah.
THERAPIST: But you do do that?
CLIENT: Yeah, of course? (laughs) How have I gotten any jobs before?
THERAPIST: Here is where I wouldn’t know that. Because so often you talk about like with writing or other parts where you come in and say, “It’s on me that I am not doing anything. I spent the whole day today doing nothing.”
CLIENT: Never been Jobs are totally different, man. This is work.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: I mean, not work, I mean this a money making, I mean it is a livelihood thing.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And it is not rocket science. What does it take to follow up? It takes a one second e-mail or one phone call or whatever.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Yeah. No that How have I gotten any jobs my whole life? I mean, of course, you have to do all those things.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And, yeah.
THERAPIST: Yeah, but when you were pursuing your PhD or your masters you talked about it for a long time but didn’t do anything about it. See what I mean? So I don’t ever know what jobs are you talking about doing and actually doing it? [00:17:44]
CLIENT: Those are very different. Yeah. Those are very different because I have very mixed feelings about those things.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: But don’t you have that about getting a nine to five job too? You have talked a lot about not ever wanting that.
CLIENT: I do. I do. But that is money. You have got to get a job. You have got to do something.
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: I mean, you have got to work somewhere. I don’t think of that as the same. Because I can also quit any fucking time I want.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: It is not like I’m signing up to get a PhD and this a big fucking deal. It is not loaded like that. It’s a job. you know?
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Yes, I don’t want to work at a coffee shop. But of course I want a fucking job. (laughs)
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Otherwise I wouldn’t have had any jobs, right? If that was the track record?
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: I have been working off and on my whole life.
THERAPIST: Mm hm. [You weren’t on] (ph) unemployment before.
CLIENT: I have been trying to do a PhD since I was eighteen.
THERAPIST: But you haven’t had unemployment before?
CLIENT: No.
THERAPIST: So I also wondered if that meant that you just wouldn’t search for a while. Like it is not as urgent to search until the unemployment is up. But you are saying, “No,” that is not the case.
CLIENT: I mean, yeah. In the very beginning, yeah, no I wasn’t. Of course. I mean that is the whole point, right? I mean, why not? I paid into the system, I’m going to -
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: But no. Starting, what is it? Like last month or the month before -
THERAPIST: Oh, so it hasn’t been that long. [00:19:00]
CLIENT: I have been looking since the beginning.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: But this sense of the feeling I have now, of like real dire or whatever, yeah, it has been like a month or two.
THERAPIST: Okay. So that then makes sense. Most people wouldn’t find, necessarily find a job after a month or two. You might at a temp agency if you actually went and interviewed at the temp agency. But that is not that long yet. And maybe for the months before that you were applying to like jobs that seemed really interesting. Like that is kind of where it started.
CLIENT: Uh. No. Actually, I’ve always been applying to I kind of had the sense that I was fucked so I just started applying to anything.
THERAPIST: Mm hm. (pause) You are saying you feel like you have done everything you can do.
CLIENT: Well, yes. But, again -
THERAPIST: What? [00:20:09]
CLIENT: I have a problem with that kind of paradigm. That is like Sisyphus. Like you are doing everything you can to get that boulder up there. Right? Forget about the fact that the boulder is just about to run you over.
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: It is like, yeah. (ph) (laughs)
THERAPIST: But if you are, then that is all you can do. Do you know what I mean? There is a difference between doing everything you can do and someone who actually isn’t doing everything they can do. There is a big difference.
CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. But see my problem There is. But my problem always is, is that the onus is always on that person. Not the circumstances, not the context, how that person even got into that situation.
THERAPIST: Yes. That is true.
CLIENT: It is a given that you have got to do what you can to get a livelihood. I feel like those things are such givens. People like to just focus on the givens. It’s like, of course you need some money to live your life.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Which means you probably need a job. Which means you should probably bust your ass to get a job.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: We get all that. Let’s put But there are bigger things going on that contribute to why you are even in that situation.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Why you aren’t getting a call back from places. So, you know, this my problem. I feel like people feel It’s like anything else. Basically it is like anything else now in this country. If you’re not rich you’re doing something. Something is going on that you are not as rich as me. [00:21:24]
THERAPIST: Mm. Mm hm.
CLIENT: Why am I rich and you are not? I worked hard, I didn’t sleep, I fucking rubbed elbows, I did what I had to do to It’s like, well people are doing the best they can. I don’t know.
THERAPIST: See I don’t feel that way if you are doing what you can do. Do you know what I mean?
CLIENT: Right, right.
THERAPIST: That is where it is different. Like I work with people who will be saying they are applying for jobs and it actually means they put in three applications to unrealistic jobs and they didn’t follow up at all.
CLIENT: Yeah. I guess.
THERAPIST: And they could say that for nine months on end and actually they are not really trying to apply for jobs.
CLIENT: Right, right.
THERAPIST: So what is going on that they are not really trying.
CLIENT: Right. Yeah. Right.
THERAPIST: That is what is important. It is very different than a person who is doing everything in their power and because times are tough it is impossible. That is actually not their responsibility. Right? They have to live with the consequences.
CLIENT: Right.
THERAPIST: Of course, those are yours. Like those are no one else’s but yours. The consequences and the suffering in it. But it is not your responsibility if you are doing everything in your power.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: And then it is much more on the times and a limited number of jobs. So that is all. When I ask about it it is because I don’t know and I sometimes could intuit, perhaps incorrectly, the way you talk about writing or some other things where you could sort of sit ambivalently about some things for a while -
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: that I don’t know if you actually have been pursuing or if it has felt like doing it part way but not the whole way. [00:22:40]
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Like how dire is it, in a way? It is not that dire in a way if there is more you can do. Do you know what I mean?
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: And I hear you saying you feel like you have -
CLIENT: I have always been that way with jobs. Again.
THERAPIST: And I didn’t know that.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: That is news to me. (laughs)
CLIENT: Yeah, but I guess, but I’m saying is how could I have any job if I wasn’t like that?
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: Like obviously I get that that is how you have to be to get any job.
THERAPIST: Yeah, well sometimes people fall into the -
CLIENT: That’s true. That’s true.
THERAPIST: It falls in their lap. Right?
CLIENT: That’s true. That’s true.
THERAPIST: And I -
CLIENT: [No job in my lap.] (ph) That has never happened. But I know what you are saying though. Or you go through phases where, yeah, other times maybe you are feeling better and you do work harder to get a job.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: And then other times you’re just -
THERAPIST: Totally. You are motivated.
CLIENT: depressed and you don’t.
THERAPIST: Even tailoring a resume. Sometimes that can make a difference -
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: because you have really worked on this resume.
CLIENT: Well that is why I said, I have got three resumes, well two really.
THERAPIST: Yeah. Yup.
CLIENT: But, you know, I took the PhD things off. I tried to put other things on.
THERAPIST: Yep. So if you have done all that, Brian (ph), then it is feeling I mean that makes sense that it feels like you are doing what you can do. Like actually [00:23:46]
CLIENT: Well, yeah. I guess I haven’t said that in here because I just assumed that that was assumed.
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: But, yeah, yeah. Well that is probably because -
THERAPIST: I don’t assume it because in so many other areas of your life that is not the way you describe it being.
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. THERAPIST: But it is helpful to me to know that when it comes down to money it feels like that is not the case.
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. With jobs that is never Because jobs are very black and white to me.
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: There’s no What’s the It is not art. It is not my art. Do you know what I mean? It is not something like a PhD that I have some ambivalent feelings about clearly.
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: You know? It is just a job. I mean it is very black and white. You know? Almost like the house thing. In a different that is pretty black and white too. I’m not ambivalent about shit. I am proactive about I want to get this thing done, you know, somehow.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Jobs are the same way. It is a job. And do I not like the fact that people get into situations that You know, I don’t like the process of it. Definitely. [00:24:56]
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: I mean I rebel. Like I feel rebellious against that.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: But I also get it. I mean (laughs) just some things are what they are. And unless you do want to be really fucked and impoverished then you need some kind of livelihood.
THERAPIST: Mm. (pause)
CLIENT: But I think on some level it doesn’t matter how much you do. I think there is always a feeling of guilt and you feel embarrassed.
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: So I think some of that must be And maybe more so for guys. I don’t know. But especially in my family. Obviously, it is a much bigger, so much more bloated kind of thing that you are a man and you are, you know, all this shit. (pause)
THERAPIST: And especially with your mother being so critical all the time. (inaudible at 00:26:04)
CLIENT: Yeah, I mean I could get a job tomorrow and she will be happy but then she will be like, “Oh, well 40,000. Oh okay.”
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: You know? Like it won’t matter.
THERAPIST: Exactly.
CLIENT: It doesn’t matter. And I think that is why it is inevitable. You are pushed, you are pushed, prodded. You are going to go like, “You know what? You can all fuck yourselves.”
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: You know, “I am making zero money. How’s that?” Like that’s, yeah, feelings like that they happen. I try not to go all the way there because that hurts me too.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: I need to make money (laughs) for myself. But that is why I am also thinking of these other ways. Because it is clear to me that nothing is going to help Well first of all, nothing, like I have said before, nothing, unless you make a shitload of money at your job, nothing is going to be a huge change. It is going to be a, you know, you are less stressed of course, whatever. And yeah, you are making some money. But in terms of a bigger change for someone like me -
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: it is not going to be. But even more important than that, I get it now that I am alone in all this. [00:27:12]
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: Do you know what I mean? My Mom’s approval, the woman is never going to be happy with a fucking thing. My family doesn’t get me. So, you know what? I’m done kind of like asking my uncle about things. I mean, yeah, maybe I will maybe I won’t. But that mindset is, I’m done.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Like I need to really on my own find a way to -
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: do some of this other stuff. And in the meantime I just have to somehow swallow the reality of what is.
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: Which is that, yeah, I mean hopefully I will just find something and patience. I have to be way more patient than I was hoping that I had to be.
THERAPIST: Mm. (pause)
CLIENT: I don’t fucking know.
THERAPIST: I think it is so, you know, courageous almost that you can acknowledge their might be, like maybe there is a layer of kind of an unconscious “fuck you.” [00:28:22]
CLIENT: Of course there is.
THERAPIST: That could keep you sort of like, “Watch me. I’m going to make no money.” And of course you know that, you just said it yourself, “That destroys me too. I try not to take that too far.”
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: But you wouldn’t be the first or last person who did something that is actually self-destructive as a way of getting back at a parent.
CLIENT: Oh yeah.
THERAPIST: It happens all the time in people.
CLIENT: Yeah. No, I absolutely have that.
THERAPIST: And recognizing it, like that could be a layer that maybe one day an application you didn’t send out for that reason. Like there was a lot of feelings stirred that day. So these are the kinds of things, that is all I am speaking to. Like could there be there be layers of things that are about something else rather than actually about the reality of applying for a job (cross talking at 00:29:02).
CLIENT: Oh yeah. well I am sure there is. I mean, yeah, I am sure there is. Like have I gone to every temp agency in Boston? No. I mean, you know, I have gone to two. Yeah. Some of that is.
THERAPIST: But that is a lot. Two is a lot.
CLIENT: That is how I feel. Yeah. I mean on top of applying to a shitload of jobs every day on my own. But, yeah, some of it is though that like, “Mother fucker!” Like it’s already like a Drudgery or trudgery? Anyway -
THERAPIST: “D.”
CLIENT: What?
THERAPIST: “D.”
CLIENT: The drudgery of it. And, you know, you got there and, you know, you feel older.
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: You know, and I already have issues with that anyway. Right? So there you are with all these twenty somethings. Or even more depressing, older people. Do you know what I mean? I mean it is just sitting in that fucking room. We are all pretending that we are kind of eager to fucking staple somebody’s paper for a week somewhere. That is some seriously psychologically fucked up. I’m sorry.
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: But to me it is. I know we all have to do what we have to do. But call me sensitive, I’m an artist, I don’t give a fuck. But that is really some demeaning shit. [00:30:12]
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: Some seriously demeaning shit. To me at least. I mean it is almost traumatizing.
THERAPIST: For you. I don’t think it feels as demeaning for necessarily other people all the time.
CLIENT: For a lot of people I know it does.
THERAPIST: There’s something -
CLIENT: But it is because they are artists. (laughs)
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: I think for a lot of people they are in the business world. So, “I will do this thing. And I buh, buh, buh, buh. And I can staple the papers. But then I will be done with my real estate license and I will be working as a broker.”
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: It is all money. Everything is related to money and fucking that is great.
THERAPIST: So what if you are there to fund being an artist, in other words?
CLIENT: Well that is good too when you are twenty five.
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: Again, see it is all about there are nuances to these things.
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: It is different when times are already shitty, so you already feel shitty. There is a vibe. There is something in the air we can all tell that something is fucking Unless you are just oblivious.
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: Everyone I know is like, “Something is off. Something doesn’t feel right in society,” or something. There is already that feeling. Two, it is not what it used to be. I have got a million temp agencies. Before it did feel a little more lighter. [00:31:18]
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: It did feel that way. It doesn’t feel that way now to me. I feel like it is there is desperation in the air. And, you know, for some people this is their job. This is all they have been able to do for months and months or whatever it is. So that thing is gone of like, “Oh, I’ll just temp for a few weeks and then something will turn up.”
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And I don’t feel that. Maybe that is just me but I don’t feel it.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: You know? I feel like there is something different going on now.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And I do think people are more awake now. Things have changed. You know? I think there is a sense of like, “Yeah, what the fuck is this temp shit anyway?” There is more of that I think. People, not everybody, but, you know, I think some people are kind of like, “What the fuck am I doing?”
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: You know? I think more people are questioning a lot more things. And I don’t mean that in some melodramatic way. I just mean there is something going on. I think more people have become a tiny bit more self-aware or just kind of like, “What is happening here?”
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Like, “I have been doing this for a while.” [00:32:20]
THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm.
CLIENT: Or, “How am I 50 years old and at a temp agency?” And for someone like me it is hard not to pick up on those things. I wish I didn’t, of course. I wish I was just had my black briefcase and, you know. That is great. I love that. (laughs) But I am not like that. So to me I walk in and everybody has a story. Do you know what I mean?
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: I am writing short stories in my head about people’s How did they get here? What is going on? You know? All that.
THERAPIST: It’s a lot of feeling.
CLIENT: Yeah. And that doesn’t excuse anything. I am not saying that like a I am not saying that to differentiate.
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: Do you know what I mean? I am not better or worse.
THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm.
CLIENT: I am just saying that is what happens for me. I can’t just go there and be like, “Hey, Sheila, what’s up? Yeah, I just need a temp “ I mean the whole thing is just, it just reeks.
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: She has to be all peppy but in her mind she’s like, “Oh, God, another guy in his 40s. Oh you are a writer, great.” You know? Yeah, I get it. You know, it’s like they are not going to [00:33:33]
THERAPIST: These sound like projections. (laughs)
CLIENT: They are and they are not. I don’t mean that she is, that people I am not saying that they are always doing that.
THERAPIST: I think this is how you are looking at yourself.
CLIENT: Yeah, maybe, maybe. But I think there is some reality to that.
THERAPIST: Your mother. (laughs) CLIENT: No, I really do. I think there is some. For a girl who is working at temp agency who is mostly all about business.
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: A lot of these people they are hard core. Like headhunters. That is not her temp job. That is a career.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: You know? These people are put together a certain way at temp agencies. So I am not saying they all are. I am just saying It might even be in a nice way.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: She might even be thinking, “Oh, man, this guy seems like a nice guy and look at these fucking qualifications. Fuck. You know?”
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: So I’m not But even that to me is like, “Ugh.” (laughs) The whole thing. Do you know what I mean? Whether -
THERAPIST: The reality of it is (cross talking at 00:34:28)
CLIENT: Exactly, the reality of it, yeah. She could be thinking nothing. And even that is like just weird. The whole thing is just, yeah. But yeah, I agree. I’m sure a lot of it is just whatever I am thinking about myself and how I feel about how things are and family shit and yeah. I mean I have no doubt.
THERAPIST: We have got to stop.
CLIENT: Okay.
THERAPIST: Tomorrow.
CLIENT: Okay, thanks Claire. Have a good one.
THERAPIST: You too.
END TRANSCRIPT
