TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:00:01)

CLIENT: I did, yeah.

THERAPIST: I’m sorry about that.

CLIENT: It’s okay, no problem.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:00:04)

CLIENT: It’s okay. Everything’s okay?

THERAPIST: Yeah, it’s okay.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don’t know. I think the thing’s up in the air.

(pause)

Yeah, I don’t know. I’m in this weird… It’s a weird place I’m in, I don’t know.

(pause)

[00:01:00]

More and more, I feel, “Wow, I think that going Assyria is the perfect thing.” It’s just timing.

I’m so careful about not impulsively trying to get away from stuff. Then I realize that I’m clearly not. If I’m thinking about it, if I’m that aware of it, that means I’m not doing that – probably.

Then I’m like, “Yeah, but then when I go there, there are going to be problems there, too. It’s not going to be perfect.” It’s all these things.

On the other hand, I do feel like, “Well, you know what? It’s not going to be perfect, but I think I’m underestimating certain potentials there.” [00:02:00]

The last time I was doing my research, I remembered other people I know. My one friend George is a CEO of some bank over. I know some pretty well-connected people over there. (inaudible at 00:02:21) easier for them to move there, because they were already kind of well-off. They’re living like kings over there. On the other hand, that’s the exact reason why they don’t have to go there.

That means that they, I think, would be very excited to have someone like me. I don’t know, I feel like I’m underestimating possibilities there.

THERAPIST: What do you think about that (inaudible at 00:02:55)?

CLIENT: How’s that doing?

THERAPIST: Hasn’t been consistent (inaudible at 0:03:02).

CLIENT: (laughs) It’s okay, it’s not your fault.

THERAPIST: When you think about the kind of person that (inaudible at 00:03:10), is there something you say might underestimate your potential. What do you picture? You’re not picturing working in a bank.

CLIENT: I’m not picturing working in a bank, but I am picturing… George’s also involved in all these non-profits. It’s not a big country. There’s definitely a network of these people on a certain level who all—

THERAPIST: People who might know people.

CLIENT: Exactly. “My friend Brian (sp) is coming. This guy’s great, he’s educated, I vouch for him, blah-blah-blah. He’s going to be teaching at (inaudible at 00:03:49) but he needs another job.”

I’m really starting to panic a little bit. [00:04:00] This isn’t, “Oh, maybe I’ll do it.” I have to decide, now, exactly what I’m doing. Next thing we know, it’s going to be the end of January, it’s going to be February.

On some level, when do I go? If there’s nothing going on here, and if any of these guys were able to hook me up with something over there… That’s just the reality. I’ve doubled my effort here just because I have to, and also because I don’t even know how I’m going to get over there, but nothing’s happening yet.

It’s starting to make me think about, “Well, what’s more…” Especially now that I have this mindset of, “What does it matter?” I go, it doesn’t work out, I come back. Darien isn’t going anywhere, and not having a job here is not going anywhere. [00:05:02]

THERAPIST: Do you have any sense about what you would be ideal?

CLIENT: Ideal? Ideal would be if these classes are good [in any way] (ph). Ideally, I’d go there – or I’d find something beforehand.

THERAPIST: Before going – find something here?

CLIENT: Here or there. If it’s here, great, to make money. Or find something there and just go.

THERAPIST: But that’s part of what I’m wondering (ph). Where do you want to be?

CLIENT: That I don’t know.

THERAPIST: What if you knew you could have a job that could pay the bills (inaudible at 00:05:36)?

CLIENT: That’s hard to say. I don’t know, it depends on what the job is. If UConn called me tomorrow and said, “We want you to teach in a creative writing program,” that’s hard to turn down. It’s here. It’s an amazing school. It depends on the job.

If I got some job that I know is just a job? [00:06:00] That’s great, but what does that mean? It’s just paying the bills. If I could do that there and have a whole new experience, then, I’d pick that.

THERAPIST: What if you could have a job in the Creative Writing Department at [either place] (sp)?

CLIENT: Oh, that’s tough. Secretly, my plan is to be the guy that heads that up. If that’s their plan to get that going in the next few years, who’s going to be there? If I go and they like me and I know all these people and I’m qualified… that’s pretty awesome. It’s a university, so it’s like teaching in the US.

That’s a big deal. I probably prefer that. I would be able to come and go and travel. I’d spend summers here. [00:07:02] There’s a lot I could do.

THERAPIST: If you could have the position year-round, do you see yourself as being (inaudible at 00:07:12)?

CLIENT: I haven’t even been there, so I don’t know. It seems like a good opportunity.

I don’t want to talk to big. What if I get off the plane, and I’m like, “Uh, I don’t think so.” That’s why that adjunct (inaudible at 00:07:25) thing is perfect.

The more I look into it, the more I explore the community of Assyrians that have gone there, the things that are happening there… Things aren’t great here. It’s my town, I love it. Obviously, we have a lot of conveniences. Assyria is a bustling, (inaudible at 00:07:57)… There’s no instability or weirdness.

It’s shitty for some of the people that live there, obviously. There’s poverty, but there’s poverty here, too. Over there, I can understand it – here? It’s all relative.

My feeling is I’d rather go and see. What’s the worst? “I can’t do it; I’m just going to come back.”

THERAPIST: It’s going from a place of being interested enough that that could be where you want to live.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That it’s worth pursuing, all things being equal.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Not just going (inaudible at 00:08:42) because that’s the only opportunity.

CLIENT: No. It’s a big move, just for the opportunity. Especially when – let’s face it, it’s not a huge – it’s not like I’m going because I’m going to work in the Middle East, where I’m going to make a lot of dollars. It’s not one of those types of moves, where I’ll suck it up but I’m going to make a lot of money for two years. [00:09:04]

I’ll be okay. If rent’s $500 and I’m making $4,300 per course… What I’m saying, though, is everyone I’ve talked to is like—I’m asking people, “What does this mean? When should I come?” Obviously, I need to be there before August. Should I just show in March and there’s going to be work? Everyone’s like, “Dude, yeah. There’s stuff. There are opportunities.”

THERAPIST: “Everyone” meaning over there?

CLIENT: Meaning over there.

My one friend, yesterday, was like, “Dude, if I’m doing it – and I don’t even have a Master’s degree. You’re published, you’re this, you’re that, you’ve done… You’re a gift to them. They want people like you. It doesn’t mean it’s going to be a cakewalk. [00:10:02] It just means you’re definitely not going to starve.”

THERAPIST: You’re a desirable (inaudible at 00:10:06).

CLIENT: Yeah. “You’re definitely not going to starve.”

I’m being more aggressive now about connecting the people, “Look, if I knew there was something”—or even with (inaudible at 00:10:25), maybe.

Her thing is, “Tell us when you’re here. Tell us when you’re coming, and there will be stuff,” or something like that. I feel like saying, “Okay, so hypothetically: if I was coming April 20, how does this work? I just show up, I crash at my friend’s for a while, and what happens from there?”

THERAPIST: If you showed up April 20, would they not then have employment for you until the summer session, I would assume? [00:11:01]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Because they’re mid-semester (crosstalk at 00:11:03).

CLIENT: Even Vivian at (inaudible at 00:11:06), her thing is, “There’s stuff we’ll find.”

THERAPIST: What does that mean?

CLIENT: What’s that?

THERAPIST: “Stuff.” (inaudible at 00:11:13) University?

CLIENT: Maybe in the University tutoring, I don’t know. Everyone says there’s “stuff.”

I think what they mean is they can’t think of anything specific, off the top of their heads. Things are happening here. There’s a lot to do and you just have to be here and things will happen. That’s what they’re trying to tell me.

It’s hard to be like, “Sure, we’ll hire you as a tutor. You’re in Darien. Sure, show up [in April] (ph).” It’s not like you’re being hired as a full-time, as a psychologist at the hospital. You’re coming from America to be… These jobs are, “Sure, that would be great to be here and they’ll hire you.” [00:12:02] They’re not going to send you an offer letter to be a tutor at some language institute.

I think that’s some of the… Whereas these other friends, like George, because they’re in this different world? That might be a little different. If he’s connected to all these non-profits, whatever, “We need a full-time marketing guy,” or whatever. That’s a full-time, salaried gig. That might be a little different about, “Okay, your start date is this date.” Phone interview, whatever.

I have a sense that maybe that—or maybe not, I don’t know. Maybe Assyria, it’s just the way that place works, “Just be here.”

I don’t know. I’m totally in this weird place, now. [00:13:00]

THERAPIST: Actually, it doesn’t sound that weird. It sounds like you’re grounded in (crosstalk at 00:13:06)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: The reality of the decisions. And not too (inaudible at 00:13:12) excited, either, but really thinking about, “What does this mean? How would it work? How would it happen? What would I leave behind? What would I gain? [What about this?] (ph)”

CLIENT: Let’s face it: it’s good for my mom, too. It’s not that she doesn’t want me to go – it’s Assyria. It’s bittersweet for her. In the back of my mind, it’s like, “With this, she’ll be more comfortable financially,” and I’ll be okay. (pause)

THERAPIST: It’s sad.

CLIENT: What’s that? [00:14:01]

THERAPIST: It’s sad.

CLIENT: I don’t think it’s really sad. I think it’s a practical—I’m not saying I’m going because of that. I’m saying it’s a nice consequence.

THERAPIST: Meaning that you’d be more independent financially, at that point.

CLIENT: I’m assuming I’d be independent, if my rent is that low and there’s all this shit to do. It might be one of the first times where I’m totally not stressing about money, I guess, in a way. I don’t know.

My mom would not be stressing nearly as much, either. She’d have a lot more income every month.

THERAPIST: From renting out the place?

CLIENT: Yeah. That’s a grand that we’re not getting per month. It’s (inaudible at 00:14:52), it’s not a joke. So I don’t know.

(pause)

In a way, it is exciting. I’ve never been. In a way, this is what I’ve always waited for. The last number of years, I’ve been saying I want to go with a reason. I don’t feeling like going just to go, for whatever reason – I don’t know why. This is seems pretty perfect.

THERAPIST: What are the losses?

CLIENT: I’m sorry?

THERAPIST: What are the losses?

CLIENT: The losses?

THERAPIST: If you (inaudible at 00:15:57).

CLIENT: Obviously, I’d miss it here. I’d miss coming to here. My friends. The Cecelia (sp) is a big deal. I have to figure out—that’s not going to make me happy. She needs to come with me. I need to brace myself, because what if I can’t? What if there are certain laws about bringing pets into the country? I don’t know. That’s not going to be good, if I can’t take her with me.

My grandmother. I have to accept that I don’t know what’s going to happen. It might be the last time I see her. Even my mom – she’s in her 70s. [00:17:00]

They didn’t really feel like losses. See, that’s the thing: they don’t feel like losses if you feel like this is not some permanent—I can just get on a plane and come back. It’s not the end of the world. I keep reminding myself of that, “This isn’t some major break.”

In a way, I don’t even think of it as a move. The few people I’ve told, “I’m just going for a semester. I’m just going to feel it out. This is a good opportunity. I want to see what the deal is. It looks like I’ll be able to maybe even save some money.” We’ll just see what happens.

(pause)

[00:18:00]

THERAPIST: So the place that (inaudible at 00:18:18) break of sorts (inaudible at 00:18:21) here?

CLIENT: Yeah, of course.

THERAPIST: And it’s not that it’s not to say, even if you continue the (inaudible at 0:18:30) session or come back when you’re back. That also leads to change, from (inaudible at 00:18:37) times a week.

CLIENT: Yeah, of course.

THERAPIST: I don’t say that to say that’s a reason not to do it. (crosstalk at 00:18:45)

CLIENT: No, but it’s a reality.

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:18:47) that means, (crosstalk at 00:18:48).

CLIENT: No, it’s a bummer. It’s something I look forward to.

THERAPIST: Or what do we like (inaudible at 00:18:55)?

CLIENT: Well, yeah. That’s the thing: it’s both. [00:19:00] I also need to do what I need to do. That’s why I come here, right?

It’s both. I feel it’s both a bummer and it’s also the reason I’m able to do these things, now, in a different way.

That’s where technology is pretty amazing. It is pretty cool that you can totally keep doing things with people, wherever.

It’s more like the actual face-to-face interactions, seeing my Assyrian friends. You know what’s weird? I think this is very telling. I’m not really going to miss my non-Assyrian friends. Is that weird? It’s not that I’m not going to miss them, but already the last year, two, three, four… [00:20:00] I see them when I see them. They’ve entered into such conventional…

Whereas my Assyrian friends are married, and they’re fucking older. But we’re going to the symphony. We’re getting sushi at the last minute. They’re so full of life. Those are the people that I’ll miss on a day-to-day. I’m sure I’ll meet other lovely people in Assyria, but this is family. But again, it’s like, well, fine. That’s awesome. They’ll come to visit me in Assyria, I’ll come here as often as I can.

And again, it’s just temporary. I don’t want to get into this mindset where I’m going and I’m moving there – I’m not. If it’s amazing, then I might try to figure out a way to come and go. As far as I can see, I’m going for whenever I get there until the fall semester is over. [00:21:05]

THERAPIST: Well, even if you love it and want to stay, it doesn’t mean you don’t have your life here, too (crosstalk at 00:21:10).

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. In a way, that would be the great thing. If I decide to stay, it must mean because I’m making a decent salary and it’s great. That means I can come and go a few times a year, easily.

My coming here is just a plane ticket. I’m coming home. I don’t need a shitload of money to be here. It’s not like I’m going to Mexico – it’s just a plane ticket, no big deal. It wouldn’t have been a big deal from Europe, if I was better-employed.

Come spend the summers here, Christmas break, whatever. Yeah, it’s not an easy hop, but it’s also not a big deal. Elderly people are doing it all… It’s really not a big deal. [00:22:02]

To me, that was another thing. I was like, “Wow, I’m really not going to miss—what am I going to miss, the stupid bars I go to every Sunday?” Yes, I know a lot of nice people, but that’s not a reason to not do… It’s not like these people are calling me every day, asking me how I’m doing. Yeah, okay, I have some friends and that’s great. But other than these very few, tight friends I have… Even music-wise…

It’s all timing. Things happen for a reason. I lost the job. I was already kind of sick of a lot of things here, job-wise. Even music-wise – what, I’m trying to do really well in Darien? That’s great, but I’m not even interested. If I was, I’d be pursuing it a lot more by getting shows. [00:23:02] I don’t give a shit. It’s the same old people doing the same old shit. A lot of them aren’t particularly talented. There are a lot of people who think they’re more than they are; Darien has always been a little bit like that.

That’s fine, but I’m over it. I’m not interested. I don’t care to be part of the club. I think there are people doing way more interesting things – not just in Assyria, but wherever, in other parts of the world.

(pause)

My one friend was like, “Dude, you can actually make money with your music here. There’s no one doing anything remotely like what you do. [00:24:00] There’s a lot of jazz, there’s a lot of rock-rock, but a lot of those rock bands aren’t that great. They also do covers and stuff. There’s no one that is what you are, here. All you would have to do is do a concert a month or every other month. You might even be able to make your rent from that.” Stuff like that is pretty enticing.

(pause)

[00:25:00]

Plus, I realized last night, “Wow, you know what? My Assyrian is going to get so fucking good.” That’s pretty awesome. If I could get it to a literary—that’s pretty amazing. To be able to read writers who I love but it’s a struggle? It’s harder to really enjoy—you know they’re amazing, but… That would be pretty amazing.

(pause)

THERAPIST: It sounds like it feels right on a number of levels.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:25:53)

CLIENT: Yeah, it does.

THERAPIST: Knowing also that there will be struggles there, too. [00:26:01]

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: It’s not going to be perfect.

CLIENT: I don’t like a lot of Assyrians from Assyria. I just don’t. They’re very Russified. They’re not like my—these are more like my family. They’re Western, Ottoman Empire Assyrian people.

The Assyrians in Assyria are very European, they’re way more savvy. I’m generalizing, but they’re the types where—my family’s been here 50 years, now. Those guys will show up last year, and they’ll open five dry cleaners. They’re very savvy – very, very savvy.

That’s good for them, but it’s also… I don’t want to say shady. It’s shifty, like you don’t know a lot of times what they’re thinking. [0:27:00] But that’s generalizing. (inaudible at 00:27:02) a lot of them are amazing people. You have to accept the fact that some people at the store might be trying to rip you off, because they see that you’re not from there. That’s like in a lot of countries like that. You have to accept that, that’s just the way it is.

They don’t know. They assume that we’re all rich. They have it so bad, and these Assyrians from America come here thinking—they think that we’re all—and a lot of them, who go there, I guess, but a lot of them aren’t. They just think that…

(pause)

I have no doubt that there will be plenty of things I don’t like. There are just too many people there now that – or who have visited a lot – who speak kindly of it. [00:28:07] Obviously, there’s something worth something. There are too many different types of people that have either moved there and stayed, or go all the time and have constructive criticism and this and that but they keep going. They speak highly. That means there’s enough good that it’s worth…

(pause)

THERAPIST: That’s the one about (inaudible at 00:28:55).

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:29:00)

CLIENT: Well, again, like everything. The system here, my mom.

THERAPIST: But even living upstairs, it feels sort of too close for comfort (inaudible at 00:29:14).

CLIENT: Yeah, but see, that’s what I’m careful about. Assyria can’t be—I can’t do that because of that. I wouldn’t feel comfortable with that. I can’t go all the way to fucking Assyria just because I don’t want to live in a nice, three-family above my mom. That’s insane.

THERAPIST: If there’s opportunity there for you to (crosstalk at 00:29:38)

CLIENT: Right, but I’m saying it can’t be, “I need to get away from my mom.”

First of all, I don’t feel that way. Or at least, I don’t feel that way—that’s not the majority. But also—

THERAPIST: I don’t even think I mean it from the perspective of, “I need to get away from my mom,” but a kind of needing to really forge your own way. [00:30:04]

CLIENT: Oh, yes.

THERAPIST: It’s like forward in development (inaudible at 00:30:06).

CLIENT: Yeah. Which is what I’ve been trying to do here.

THERAPIST: Yes!

CLIENT: But because the bank thing didn’t work out, because I can’t get a good job. And also because I’m realizing it won’t even matter. If I did get a job that paid just like this one paid, what was I doing on that money?

This city is just not… You need bigger chunks of money here. And because my mom—she’s in the house, she wants to stay there. I don’t have too much flexibility. That means I have to do my own thing for now.

Yeah, you’re right. In that way, yeah, you’re right.

Because of that, then, I think I feel stifled artistically. I don’t feel…

THERAPIST: Which has really opened up (inaudible at 0:30:58). And again, I don’t mean that just as you’re running away, but actually finding your separate self and it’s allowed you to be more of yourself, really embody that person instead of having her voice as being so intrusive.

CLIENT: Right. Yeah, no, it’s true. It’s true. I guess the only reason I’m saying it that way is because I’ve also envisioned: let’s say everything was better, and I moved to the Square and I had an amazing apartment.

Is that that different? I’m from here. Everything is steeped in memories. “Oh, okay, the Square. Whoop-de-do.” There’s nothing particularly energizing about that. It’s both. It’s what you’re saying, and it’s also I think a general being in your hometown.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:31:56) could just be the sort of extension of her family, your dad, and—

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Yeah: family, relationships. Also, this idea that because I look back on things that I’m so disconcerted because of – what did you say? An integrated memory or whatever? It’s not integrated, so when I look back – even on memories I have here – I’m like, “Oh, that’s weird. Yeah, I remember being 19 at this restaurant.” Things like that. I have weird memories like that.

I think that’s why this idea of being here but also—or being somewhere else but just coming back very often, that’s it’s home and I’m here often, but I don’t… At least, for a while, I think maybe that’s what needs to happen.

THERAPIST: You mean having this space to then (inaudible at 00:32:52).

CLIENT: Right, because that way, I could come back. It’s a different feeling when you’re back visiting, even if it’s for a whole summer. You know that you have this whole other life that you’re connected to somewhere else.

I think what could happen is eventually if I ever did really, “All right. I’m just going to be in Darien. I don’t want to keep living in Timbuktu,” or whatever. I’m hoping maybe by that time I’ll have done other things.

Like you said, you embody yourself so much more. Then, I don’t care if it’s in Cheshire or the Square. Things will already be in motion at that point, in a different way.

THERAPIST: You’d be bringing a different person back here.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: So much of the way, and the memories of oneself get integrated (inaudible at 00:34:00) just through having a recognized (inaudible at 00:34:05). That’s actually the vehicle through which a memory gets integrated, especially a memory that identity of self.

CLIENT: How can you remember yourself if it’s as if you didn’t really exist, in a way? What’s there to remember?

THERAPIST: That reminds me – did you ever see the movie “Memento”?

CLIENT: Yeah. That was a great movie.

THERAPIST: It has that feel of a kind of, like, when you can’t remember. And you keep repeating (crosstalk at 00:34:35)

CLIENT: That’s why it’s uncomfortable, because when I do remember, what am I really remembering? Just a physical body. It’s like, “Yep, I physically remember that.” That’s even weirder, in a way.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:34:51), that’s one of the things that got recognized, in a way. Visible. You’re not looking at a picture of yourself and going, “Oh, that’s my whole sense of myself.” [00:35:00]

It’s through the mother saying, “Oh, you feel sad,” and the baby feeling, “Oh, yeah, my mom sees me.” The sense of, “I was sad yesterday,” get integrated, because it’s been named with words and seen and known and understood and elaborated. There becomes a continuity of a sense of self. “Now I’m happy.” “Oh, you’re happy today! Yesterday, you were sad.”

CLIENT: Well, because that implies that all of that is okay.

THERAPIST: Yes!

CLIENT: Whatever it is.

THERAPIST: Yes! That’s just the variability of you, there’s nothing wrong with it.

CLIENT: Right.

(pause)

THERAPIST: I have a feeling sometimes with the way she should look at you, like looking at you, with critical eyes.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Instead of being with you and being in your (inaudible at 00:35:52) self (crosstalk at 00:35:53)

CLIENT: They’re not really capable of that. As much as my dad’s side is, they’re not. [00:36:01] It’s sad. It’s hurtful to others. It’s unhealthy for themselves.

THERAPIST: It almost becomes like not even seeing a person. It’s more this (crosstalk at 00:36:22)

CLIENT: They’re seeing parts.

THERAPIST: Right, or like a fancy car. It’s an object. You’re not a whole self, in that (crosstalk at 00:36:33)

CLIENT: Because they’re scared of their own selves that they don’t deal. Why are they going to see yourself?

That means you’d have to genuinely embrace all emotions and things of that person. If you can’t do that for yourself, why the fuck are you going to… If you’re living in such fear, all the time. [00:37:02]

“Claire’s having problems with her job or her marriage.” You see the world as a bubble. Everything becomes a morality play. It would be like, “Oh, well, see, all men, you can’t trust. You have to be careful.” Or the opposite! It would be, “Well, but you know, she’s a doctor. So who knows? She’s probably torturing her husband. She’s probably never home. She thinks she’s the boss.”

That has nothing to do with Claire. Those are general, insane comments. (chuckles) That’s what happens. That has nothing to do with you or me or anybody, that’s about them

THERAPIST: Immediately goes to some general projective statement about humanity.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It’s funny, we’ve talked about that. Your description, your own experience, how hard it is to stay with being specific about you, right? [00:38:01] That’s what she did to you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or of how whoever the person is (inaudible at 00:38:06) getting described, that’s because she did this or did that. It stops being about that person. You don’t even know the person enough to say that kind of thing.

CLIENT: That’s my pet peeve, with my mom’s side. They have no sense of taking charge of their own destiny. That’s my biggest pet peeve, my whole life.

I might not do things perfectly. That’s something I have realized. Like, “Yeah, you know what? Maybe Brown wasn’t great. This wasn’t great.” But you know what? I’m still proud of all that stuff. Did you get into Brown? No, I did.

That’s because I never give up on being proactive about changing my life. That’s the exact opposite of them. If you’re not going to do that, what are you going to do? [00:39:00] That means that you’re going to be passive, which also has to mean that nothing’s your fault. If it’s not your fault, then when you’re talking about other people, right? “Well, it’s Claire. She’s a doctor, so,” or the opposite, “Her husband’s such a drunk. You should never drink.”

Everything becomes these… (chuckles) There’s no owning something and being like, “In this particular case, whatever. This is this case.” Instead, everything’s like, “All blacks are like this.” You name it.

THERAPIST: All wives must (inaudible at 00:39:49).

CLIENT: Yeah. They don’t even have the wherewithal to be like, “Well, obviously, there’s some kind of weird, competitive, jealous something,” yeah, I don’t like those kinds of women, either. [00:40:00] Why are you so worked up about it? Maybe because those women get what they want. I don’t like my uncle’s wife that much, either, but you know what? She owns a multimillion-dollar business. My uncle helped her, but she also helped my uncle be the hotshot that he is – buying big houses, for Christ’s sake.

Do I want that marriage? Do I want to be married to a woman like…? Fuck no. I can’t keep slapping her down and making it sound like my uncle is… Like, “Their poor brother. He was somehow…” I don’t think so, man. He’s a grown man. It’s very easy to break up with someone. She didn’t put something in his tea.

(pause)

THERAPIST: So you never got to get (inaudible at 00:41:00) specifics, either. The moment she could even dabble with seeing something real about you, you immediately get used for (crosstalk at 00:41:12)

CLIENT: Well, it’s even worse when you’re a kid, because you’re being compared. “Why do you have acne? Other kids don’t have acne.” Everything.

THERAPIST: That’s horrible (crosstalk at 00:41:22)

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: Can you imagine saying that to a child?

CLIENT: I don’t have to imagine that, I was there! (laughs)

THERAPIST: I think I say that—you’re smiling as you’re thinking about it. It’s really not funny.

CLIENT: Well, no, of course it’s not funny. It’s a coping mechanism. What am I going to do, other than be here and talk about it?

It doesn’t make me emotional that much anymore, in a way. It kind of does, but I feel done with it. [00:42:00]

How should I explain it…? It doesn’t hit me a certain way, as it did even a year ago. In a way I like that I can laugh. I feel more of a distance.

THERAPIST: Whereas, it used to hit you? Because it’s never hit you in here.

CLIENT: Yeah, that’s just the way I am. I don’t really cry in here. I try to write about it, and I’d get really down. Or I’d somehow think about it, something would trigger it.

And it still does, sometimes. But it’s much more of a… It’s like anything else, like controlling your anxiety. I’ll be like, “Oh, I can feel it’s coming!” I’ll have a moment of, “Fuck me.” Just a speechless… It renders me speechless. I’m like, “What the fuck have I lived through?” [00:43:00]

It feels good to be like, “Okay. All right. That came and went.” I have to get on with my life. I don’t want to ignore it. Obviously, I’m not ignoring it. It feels good to be… not flippant, but like, “Fuck you.” I don’t know if that makes sense. I’m not trying to put it out of my mind. I don’t know.

THERAPIST: I get what you’re saying and I appreciate (inaudible at 00:43:35). You’ve done a lot of work on your own, and you’re getting to the place of being past it. The other side is that there may still be ways that experiences like that are the very (inaudible at 00:43:49) things that interrupted (inaudible at 00:43:51).

CLIENT: Well, yeah.

THERAPIST: [Know what I mean?] (ph)

CLIENT: I get how fucked-up I have been because of that stuff. That’s what I’m saying, that’s why I’m here.

THERAPIST: And that partly come to know it – really know it – in your conscious mind, or even with another person – like me – having it actually be said, “I’m proud,” and spoken, understood. It becomes more of a (inaudible at 00:44:17) itself.

CLIENT: In a way, that’s why I laugh. When you express yourself in that way, I actually find that comforting.

THERAPIST: It’s more of like, “Wow.”

CLIENT: Me?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Not “Wow.” I’m enjoying—

THERAPIST: It’s validating.

CLIENT: Yeah. I’m enjoying that you really get it. Not “enjoying,” that’s not the right word – I’m comforted that you really get it. It’s not like I’m letting it go, but I can be like, “Yep, okay, good.” [00:45:00]

THERAPIST: “That really happened (crosstalk at 00:45:01) and it wasn’t okay.”

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly.

THERAPIST: So cool.

CLIENT: Right, exactly.

THERAPIST: So much not about you! All kids get acne. Why is she even saying…?

CLIENT: This is the other reason. When you have more compassion and more of a—you can take yourself—because then I remember all, right?

Forget about me. They’d say – I’m not trying to take it away from me –

THERAPIST: About everyone else, too, yeah.

CLIENT: “In Assyria, there were no people with dementia. What is this dementia? Why does she have it? None of the other old ladies in her building have it!” Dude, in Assyria, because you’re all ashamed of it. All the cripples, all the… They’re kept at home!

When I went to Cairo, I don’t think I saw one disabled person in Cairo. That’s not possible; they had a fucking civil war. I didn’t see one person without limbs, I didn’t see anybody with even crutches – I didn’t see one fucking person with crutches. [00:46:03] People have a shame about that stuff.

“What is this with all these homosexuals all over the place?” Dude, trust me. Everything’s about this bizarre conformity to one type. There’s only one type of person, who is a very pale-skinned, very conventional human being prototype. Everything else is some kind of freakish…

THERAPIST: I’m sorry, again, about tomorrow.

CLIENT: No worries.

THERAPIST: I wish I could make it.

CLIENT: It’s okay. We’re on for next week? And not the week after.

THERAPIST: The week after that, I’m actually here on Friday, if you’re around.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, okay. Yeah, I’m around. [00:47:00]

THERAPIST: But I’m out Mondays and Thursdays, so we wouldn’t have Wednesday, Thursday, but we could do Friday.

CLIENT: Okay. Sounds good.

THERAPIST: 27th and then the following week, I’m out Wednesday, (inaudible at 00:47:09) New Year’s Day, but we’ll (inaudible at 00:47:12).

CLIENT: Right. Thanks, Claire. Have a good weekend.

END TRANSCRIPT