TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Thanks for not making it hot in here.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: (laughs) (grunts) What's up? Oh. Nice. So, I'm not going to go My cousin, did I tell you my cousin's birthday party thing is Sunday?

THERAPIST: Mm mm.

CLIENT: Oh. So, yeah, my Mom told me yesterday that, or the day before that This is my uncle's, basically my youngest cousin on my Mom's side.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I'm not going to go.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: It's already fucking Christmas. I'm going to see them anyway. I mean, what is it, Christmas Eve?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So, I feel bad but I'm going to have to do a little white lying.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I'm just, I'm not in the mood. It's like I'm already going to see them, so.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. How does that feel?

CLIENT: Good. Yeah, I just don't care. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I mean it's just funny. I just do not care. You know, and also it's just too depressing now. Christmas will be nice because my cousin invites other people as well, other than the family. [00:01:12]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: It's just become They were over, my aunt and my grandmother. I just, it's too sad. Like my grandmother like she smells really bad now. Like it's just, what? It's surreal. You know? And I just can't handle Like I sit for a little while but then I just, I can't. You know? It's just too much.

THERAPIST: How is she?

CLIENT: Bad.

THERAPIST: Mentally.

CLIENT: See the problem they're having is that And that's the thing. It's sad for them too. Like I feel sad all around. Like she knows us.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: That's the problem. You know? She totally knows us.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So they're just having trouble letting go. Like being like, "Alright, she needs to be in a nursing home." They're just not, you know. Even as much as my Mom and my aunt are like, "She needs to be."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: They're not doing anything about it. They just can't take the steps to make that happen. You know? So it's just kind of like this prolonged You know? It's just bad for everybody.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: She smells, like she'll chew on her food and then just take it out and put, you know, it's bad. It's bad. [00:02:27]

THERAPIST: Does she have a working memory? Is she remembering what she says from minute to minute? Does she get repetitive?

CLIENT: No. I mean she doesn't really say anything for there to be anything to be remembered.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like it's all just random.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: No, no, no. I mean, she's gone. That's what I'm saying.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: That's the problem. It's like she totally remembers us, basically.

THERAPIST: But she has other dementia?

CLIENT: Basically. But everything else is. Like yesterday she just turned to my Mom and said, "Oh, where's your Dad, by the way? When "

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? And that's hard for them. It's like, "Oh, he went on a trip." You know? And she's like, "Oh, a trip. Maybe he went to Assyria." And my Mom's like, "Yeah, maybe." You know? It's just like (sigh) Yeah. It's bad. But then, I mean she remembers us, but then she'll do weird things like And that's the other thing, sometimes she's just smart. (snaps) Like yesterday my aunt went to the sub shop near my house, and they like to get some like noodle soup and whatever the fuck they get. Chicken subs or whatever. [00:03:36]

So they called me and they're like, "Could you come here and bring Sophie." So I come down and I'm grabbing a bite to eat. And I'm like, "Oh. Oh that's cool. Is this just chicken or just grilled chicken." And my Aunt's like, "Yeah." In Assyrian, I'm saying. But I'm saying, "Grilled chicken" in English. Right? So she said, "Yeah, yeah, it's grilled chicken." My grandmother, seemingly, wasn't even there, right? Just goes, "Grilled? That's like what? Like a girl, right?"

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: She says, "Grilled, like a girl." You know what I mean? So suddenly she'll have these moments of like -

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: we're like, "Why does she even remember that word." Like she doesn't even know English really. But then, in the same breath, she looked at me and she goes, "Why, do you have a girl now?"

THERAPIST: Hm. Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, it's just like this total crossed wires kind of thing. But anyway, so the short of it is, I just can't anymore just be with, you know, just the immediate, this circle of It's just not fun. It's just not. You know? My uncle is just a wreck. You know? There's no one to Like what am I supposed to do? You know? [00:04:45]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Or it's even sadder, it's even worse. They'll, like at Thanksgiving at my cousins, you know, my uncle will put stuff on YouTube like Charles Asnavour or, you know, like these French singers or whatever. And that's almost sadder to me because it's almost like -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It's like, "What are you doing?" Like, "What? Are you trying to make yourself happy?" It's like the same shit over and over. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: There's no real substance or something. I don't know. I can't explain it. It really is like a Eugene O'Neil play or like a Chekhov play now. I can't even put my finger on what the fuck is happening any more. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I don't know if people are just going through the motions or they're just, I don't know. It's like, "Why are you putting on that music? Why not just engage?"

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know? So we're just going to sit here and look at Charles Asnavour singing a song from the sixties or something. It's just weird. Or it's like this forced merriment or something. You know? [00:05:55]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: It's just, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Something sounds really sort of stuck in the past.

CLIENT: Yes. Yes. Something is really not good. And I don't want any part of it because it has nothing to do with me, so. But I do feel bad for my Mom, for my aunt. You know? But I think they're just in it. Their feeling is, "Look, this isn't going to last " I mean, not outwardly.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But that must be the peace they've made with themselves that, well, this isn't going to last forever.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: She's ninety, she doesn't have her teeth.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I mean it's just a matter of, I don't know, a year? I don't know. I mean, how much longer can that go?

THERAPIST: She's got dementia. Severe.

CLIENT: Yeah. So eventually it's going to be pneumonia or something else is going to happen. And then that's You know what I mean? So, I mean, she already had heart It's incredible that she's still so tough. Yeah. It's awesome but it's also just really sad. I mean she, you know. It's, you know, I mean it's like, I don't know. You know? [00:07:15]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So, yeah, so I was like, "You know what? I don't want to go there and just sit there and be part of them kind of pretending," or whatever.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And then with my grandmother, especially with my uncle, the thing I hate about my uncle that he does is, because he's in such denial, I guess, is that when he is with my grandmother he'll just like smile and make light of things. Like she's like this cute little You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I get what he's trying to do in a way. But that's a total disconnect from how fucked up You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's not your cute little Mom anymore. Like this woman smells, she's just the hygiene is fucked up. I mean, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Self-care, just even basic stuff?

CLIENT: Yeah. It's just left to my Mom and my aunt to worry about. And it's like he just swoops in and tries to take her to Panera once in a while.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So of course it's easier to deal with it because you're not there every day. So he can kind of just be in this more denial kind of thing. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But, again, I've just made my There's nothing I can do about it and I'm done even caring. [00:08:27]

THERAPIST: Trying.

CLIENT: Yeah. Fuck it. And it's no more about, like I'm not even angry at my uncle. I'm not angry. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It's like, "Be adults." You know? Get together as two sisters and be like, "You know what? This is fucked up. We're not doing this anymore."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: "Yeah, we don't want to put her in a nursing home, but this needs some kind of a real permanent, twenty-four/seven solution.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know? And so if they're not going to do that then, eh, fuck it. Who cares. I'm just glad my grandmother kind of just doesn't know what's going on. At least there's that. She doesn't know that she smells.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: If they say anything she gets very belligerent. I mean that's the thing about her. She gets super belligerent. "What's wrong with me? I look great."

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Like, you know, she'll be like, "What? I bathe, I clean myself. Look, I'm fine. I'm totally fine." She's just so tough. You know? And that's great in a way. So I'm glad at least she has no idea. You know? But, yeah, so I just don't want to go because I'm going to have to do it two days later. [00:09:38]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Why the fuck am I going to go on a Sunday and just sit there. Fuck that. (pause) I don't know. (pause) They're just so, it's so sad. They're such strange people.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: They were watching TV yesterday, so I come down and they put on the TV. And it's some old Mel Brooks movie. You know those parody movies he used to do?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: First, they kind of aren't getting what's happening. So they keep misinterpreting what's actually the humor. Like they're missing some of that.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: My aunt is kind of getting it but, you know. But then my aunt says, "Look at the " There was one character in the movie who was pretty old. So my aunt says, "Look at this guy. He's in a movie acting." Obviously he's acting. Right? [00:10:42]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: "At that age. Look at that." So then they spin that into like a, again, like this black and white dichotomy. Like, "Why is it that " It's as if this is happening to my grandmother and not to other old people.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And they said, "No one else in the building has it. Why does she have it? None of her neighbors, no one else has this. She has it." It's like, "Well, but they do." You know? "You just don't see." It's kind of a big world. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: It's like they're so And that's so sad in a way. They feel like, it's just Not to mention, you don't know what this fucking old dude Yes, he's acting in this movie but you don't know who this guy is and what he's been through.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: It's just so childish. There's such a childish Its stunning. I mean, it's stunning. (laughs) Like you could, a psychologist, could build a career. I swear to God. It renders you speechless. There are so many layers of fucked up-ness. [00:11:50]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And it's so sad. So you're looking at an old movie. That's the connections you're making? You know? It's so weird.

THERAPIST: It's very, we call it, paranoid schizoid level of relatedness (ph) overall.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's like, "The world is against me."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And it's very much [a system] (ph) because there's no one. Even feeling persecuted by the world -

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: it's like you're the only who gets the short end of the stick.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It's just not true, actually.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It's a fantasy of being that special, in a way, that you're the only one.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, I know it's not a good way to be special.

CLIENT: I know. No, yeah, you're right.

THERAPIST: But actually, most people (cross-talking at 00:12:37)

CLIENT: You're a target. Like you're the target all the time. Yeah. Well, no, and not only that. That's one. And two is to not understand how actually fortunate you are.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That's what's so said to me. It's such wasted energy on negativity. It's like, "Look at us. You live in a fucking bubble over here." Everything is nice. Yeah, things are hard right now moneywise, this way. But, you know, you still have your homes. I mean, I don't know. Like is it really that bad?

THERAPIST: Mm hm. You're alive, even.

CLIENT: You're alive.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: And your Mom's alive.

THERAPIST: Exactly.

CLIENT: You know, it's just like.

THERAPIST: She's in her nineties, right?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I think she just turned ninety.

THERAPIST: The average age of mortality is younger than that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So. (laughs) Everyone else is getting the short end of the stick.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, they just don't get that. They just do not get it. But it's even more. I don't know what the word is, but there's an even Especially with my aunt. There's just a level of literally no logic even.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like yesterday they showed a clip of Elizabeth Taylor. Right?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So we're all like, "Oh, Elizabeth Taylor." You know? And I was like, "Yeah, she was " You know, kind of joking with them. Like (snaps fingers). You know, "She was stunning." You know? [00:13:56]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: My aunt then is like, "Yeah, you know, the thing is. I read somewhere the thing with Elizabeth Taylor was her eyes were a very unique color. Like violet."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Now at least my Mom draws a line. My Mom is well, "You know, you can't have violet eyes. That's purple." She's like, "I don't know. No, I read it that she had these unusual eyes." Like that's weird.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You can't be a somewhat educated person. Like I don't know clinically what that is. There's something weird with that. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Then she had this whole theory that the reason gold is precious (laughs) Oh Lord. The reason gold is precious is because it came from a different planet.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: This is what I'm dealing with. And that that's why, because it's not from the earth, it's from I don't know what clinically what that's called, if it's just idiocy of just such naivet�, or I don't know what. [00:14:56]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But that's some fucked up shit. To not have some common, she just lacks common sense.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Or she just refuses to accept common sense. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: And it gets to the point, like with the gold thing, I just went with it. I was like, "Sure, well that makes sense. It came from somewhere else so that's why it's a rarity."

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: So, you know, what the fuck? So I'm going to explain to this woman that Are you kidding me? But it's this kind of, that paranoid stuff is coupled with this just insanity. You know? Luckily my Mom -

THERAPIST: She doesn't go there.

CLIENT: Not she doesn't go there. She has her things about, you know, she has her prejudices about blacks and this and that. But that's, I'm sure our neighbors have that in Watertown.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That's everybody's home has that kind of secret. But that kind of shit about crazy, like my aunt has crazy conspiracy things.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: For a long time she was on a kick about taxes. That whole thing about, you know, how these crazy white militia types were like, you know, "It's not in the constitution to take taxes." Or something, I don't know. [00:16:04]

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: It's just like, "Dude, what are you saying? First of all, you're not even rich anymore to care about that. But what are you talking about, Dude? Who do want to on your street " Like it's not even like my uncle type of just Republican or something.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? It's like, "What are you talking about." Literally, "What the fuck are you saying?" She just doesn't get it. She just had really weird shit sometimes. Really weird. Or that whole, remember like it's proven that better looking people are just better people?

THERAPIST: (laughs) Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know? Things like that. Even my uncle and my Mom are like, "What? No, that's not possible. What the fuck are you talking about?"

THERAPIST: Do you feel like she's not smart, sort of pervasively?

CLIENT: My aunt? No she's not.

THERAPIST: She's not.

CLIENT: Yeah, she's not.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: My aunt's very, you know, I don't even get how she became an opera singer. It's really weird because opera, to me, I mean all opera singers are also connected to other arts. [00:17:08]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: And, you know, they're very And she's just so odd. Like she could give a shit. She just wants to watch movies.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: She doesn't read. When my Mom will talk about something like historically, my aunt will just be like in awe. Like, "How did that happen? Why?"

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: And she will just ask just really childish questions. Like, "But why? Like these are Assyrians. Why? Maybe we deserve to me massacred. I mean, what? Why did we put up with that? Obviously they were smarter than we were." Like she's just really -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. And I don't know what that's called. I don't. In that way she's a lot like my grandmother. My grandmother was always like an Edith Bunker type.

THERAPIST: Hm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: Just so sweet. Well, no, you know what? She's not like my grandmother because my grandmother never had [conspiracy] (ph) She was always loving.

THERAPIST: I guess, that's not how you -

CLIENT: No, no, she's not. But it is this crazy naivet� and gullibility.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And that my grandmother did have. You know, I could have been like, "Grandma, I saw a kid fly away with a bunch of balloons." And she'd be like, "What? Oh no!" [00:18:14]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know, things like that. But it was much more of a cuter like typical Edith Bunker kind of thing.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And we would all, like my Grandpa would get that cute little grin like, "Aha, that's awesome. I married her really young." Like, you know, just like he loved her. Kind of like Archie Bunker.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like he loved her so much.

THERAPIST: Endearing.

CLIENT: It's so endearing, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But my aunt is like, you know, "The Federal Reserve is some kind of secret corporation. They're controlling everything." And, I don't know, you name it. I mean, there's a whole bunch of things.

THERAPIST: Maybe, I mean beyond just a kind of general personality tendency, truly paranoid in a way.

CLIENT: Yeah. She is.

THERAPIST: More formally diagnosably paranoid.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah, she is.

THERAPIST: In addition to not being all that smart.

CLIENT: And what worries me is that what's happening to my grandmother might happen to her. I feel like those kinds of things are just weird.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That's weird to me and I feel like that can't end well or something. I don't know. Maybe it can, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Like it's been worsening in a way? Like she's declining in her reality testing?

CLIENT: I don't know. I know that she's had more little fender benders. [00:19:20]

THERAPIST: Uh huh. So there could be cognitive stuff that's going on.

CLIENT: Yeah. I just feel like something is not -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? And I worry. But the thing is, see that's the thing. And I think that is what is so difficult. You've got to just, because you can't, you can't even say anything like, "Hey, when was your last physical."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You've got to just let it go, you know, because even the fact that you bring it up -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: can be turned around to be like, "You're one of them. You've allowed doctors to You've bought into that whole "

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: Yeah. Things like that.

THERAPIST: She's really paranoid.

CLIENT: My Mom has that too a little bit. That whole like, "If you end up in the hospital that's it, you're fucked. " (laughs) You know, all that. But she can stop herself. "Well, no, but I broke my hip."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: "And they really helped me and they were really " And she was very, like my Mom was very like, "These nurses are so nice." She was so nice to them. Like I noticed in the hospital.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: She was such a good patient. Like her rehab and all that. She was very like, "Thank you, dear. Thank you, honey." (laughs) Like she was very sweet. [00:20:26]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: My aunt doesn't have that. My aunt would be constantly, you know.

THERAPIST: It's really an impaired reality [system] (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I think the difference is because my Mom didn't have the wealth and the isolation. My aunt had wealth and total isolation.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And that's not a good, yeah, that's never good. It's almost like you become like a William Randolph Hearst type or like a Howard Hughes type of person. She had a whole theory that the earth is spinning faster now.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And that's why time seems to be going faster.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: And I tried to explain, I was like, "No, you know, there are studies that say that as people get older there's some kind of chemical thing that we do feel that way as you get older." Do you know "Radio Lab," that show "Radio Lab?" [00:21:26]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: They did a whole thing on time and that was why they were like, "Why? Why is it that as you get older, once you hit your thirties and forties, whatever, that just things seem to fly by all the time."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And they were like, "There were these studies that there's something, a chemical, whatever, that it really does feel to you that time is flying by when it's exactly the same as it's always been." You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I gave it like two seconds, I tried to explain it, and then I could see that she was She listened, she was like, "Yeah, I saw this thing on the history channel." You know? So I was like, "Oh, yeah, maybe it's possible." So that's why I've been wearing more hats lately because it's been so (inaudible at 00:22:03). (banging sounds)

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: Oh, fuck. Yeah.

THERAPIST: It makes you so alone.

CLIENT: Well, alone and also just I feel, you know, I mean, I love them. You know, I feel bad for them. It's so ridiculous. It's just so fucking ridiculous.

THERAPIST: You feel bad for them. I don't mean alone, like there's something wrong with you. Bu there's not way of actually making -

CLIENT: There's no real -

THERAPIST: meaningful contact.

CLIENT: No, no.

THERAPIST: Like someone who is grounded in reality with you.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, no.

THERAPIST: It all sounds like the way you would treat a ninety year old woman. Like, "Sure, Grandma."

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Right? Like, lip service, but not -

CLIENT: Right, right. In that way, the best has been my Mom.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: When I'm alone with her -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: my Mom's much more -

THERAPIST: Lucid.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, she's like, "Oh, that's great. Assyria." She's like, "You know, there's this neighborhood, there's this neighborhood, this street, that street." You know? Like normal fucking things.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know? In that way it's all normal.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know? And she's always been the most of all of them because she's the most like my grandfather. You know, she's the most kind of [00:23:11]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: She just reads nonstop. And she's turning out to be even more than my uncle, the most kind of connected person.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: And healthiest, in a weird way. She sees what's going on with her Mom, she just accepts it, and she's like, "I want to take care of my Mom, period. It sucks and it's awful, but I will feel better knowing that I was there for my Mom."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: That's incredible. You know? Whereas my uncle is in some kind of weird, he just throws money at it. And he kind of shows up but he doesn't truly, I think, understand or want to understand the gravity because he feels a lot of guilt and this and that.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So, yeah, it's just the whole thing is just bad. It's bad. And, yeah, it is, like I basically end up just sitting there and making small talk and just humoring them.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But, yeah, there's no longer a real, there never really was actually, but -

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It's a bummer because my aunt and I have always been, like I love my aunt, you know. [00:24:22]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I love my other aunt too, of course. So she would always be like, "How are you, honey?" Like she's genuinely asking me how I am. But I know that, what am I going to answer? You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So there's not a, because if I say too much she's going to start taking things and You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So I just say, "Oh good." You now, "Pretty good." (pause) So, I don't know. (pause) (drumming sounds) But it's also, you know, I feel bad for her kids, my cousins.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Because it's definitely caused a lot of friction now. They're having trouble handling her.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Because my cousin, her daughter, and me and the most similar cousins.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know, Krista is very just chill and just, "Calm the fuck down." (laughs) Not a big talker. You know, and just she gets really riled by the absurdities. [00:25:27]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And then my other cousin, I mean, he's just been weird with his girlfriend and all that. He's totally written her off. And so it's just, I feel bad, that's hard.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And I think that can only make things worse. That doesn't help probably, because I think stress levels and this and that. You know? (pause)

THERAPIST: It's like so much of the legacy you've been left with has been changed so much (inaudible at 00:26:16) just being more and more grounded in reality. Of yourself, of other people. Needing money, (inaudible) yourself as an artist.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: How to make that happen.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Yet this whole side of your family is really often not in reality.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: About everything.

CLIENT: It never has been.

THERAPIST: It could be too far in, you know, the gutter. It could be too high, you know, distortions about things.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. It's very strange.

THERAPIST: And I imagine you're a kid, you're a little boy, and you don't know the world yet.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: So this is what you're delivered about the world.

CLIENT: Right, right. Well, and on top of being the first one born here.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: So they have their mental illnesses, but then they just have regular immigrant things. [00:27:06]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? So.

THERAPIST: And they have all these projections and hopes -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: and fantasies and you. All deposited in you.

CLIENT: Yeah. The weird thing that I don't get is, but maybe I just didn't know my grandparents. Obviously, I didn't know them when they were younger -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: but I just knew them as sweeter, you know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Because I kind of don't get where it comes from, kind of. I'm assuming it is kind of my grandfather in a way, because my grandmother was always just a consistent -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: She was very consistent. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But my grandfather was just such a, just so full of rage and anger.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And quick temper.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Because he would get so deep into politics and this and that. I'm assuming that's where some of this comes from. But the thing is, my grandfather was never, ever not common sensical.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: Never lacked, you know, that was never an issue. So that's what I don't I don't know if it's his over sensitivities and rage against the world. [00:28:13]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Mixed with my grandmother's complete gullibility. Like I don't know what the fuck it is. But I just don't get it. I don't get it. I never remember my grandfather or grandmother having any weird conversations about conspiratorial things and weird shit they saw on the science channel or, you know.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I don't know. I mean it was the opposite. We used to watch Benny Hill. Remember Benny Hill?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: My grandfather would sit there in his boxer shorts and he would laugh, a little secret laugh. Like, you know. You know what I mean? So I don't understand where this level of heaviness. I don't know if it's all the deaths that happened. You know? They just got fucked up when all this tragedy happened. I don't know. (pause) [00:29:13]

THERAPIST: Well, also even it wasn't concretely there in your grandfather and grandmother, dealing with rage, with unpredictable rage coming at you at any time -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Can make one -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And again, I'm extrapolating.

CLIENT: No, no, you're right.

THERAPIST: But from what you're saying, if you're imagining a kid and he's like that now, not about politics, but behind closed doors, who knows (cross talking at 00:29:36).

CLIENT: No, and they've said, my Mom lately and my aunt, they've kind of been more open lately about saying, you know, that it was very tough when they were growing up.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: That my grandfather was really, really difficult. You know? It's just obviously what They're not going to talk about that every day. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But they've let it slip lately. And I can see that. He was never, he thought girls were just second class people. Never in a rude way.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like he wasn't like a cigar smoking like foul mouthed, like he was a very classy dude.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Just super old school. You know. So, I can only imagine three beautiful daughters and this really hard ass of a Dad. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So, yeah, they've let it slip a few times. It was very, very difficult. So that must have done something.

THERAPIST: Both in feeling devalued but also if he's angry, they may have been frightened by him.

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm sure they were. Yeah, very intimidated. [00:30:38]

THERAPIST: And so one of the things that happens psychically when that occurs is that they could be spending all their time vigilantly waiting for him, like not to make the wrong move or trying to impress.

CLIENT: And spending more time in a fantasy world or something -

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: to escape that.

THERAPIST: It can create a whole like a kind of paranoia as they're watching. This is PTSD. It's a form of paranoia, in a way, as you are waiting for the signal that something devious is going to happen.

CLIENT: Yeah. And meanwhile they look around, especially at that age, they look around like, "Oh, so and so's parents aren't like that," or something. So they start constantly comparing and contrasting. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And then for my uncle that's the thing. That's why he's always been, because he's the boy. You know? Could do no wrong.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: He's not spoiled, but that's where he has a little bit of this distance. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm. And he's got potentially his own guilt about successes.

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: Or pressure to succeed. [00:31:43]

CLIENT: Exactly, yeah. That's the difference. They don't have that, but he has, you know, his Dad's gone now. He didn't get to see quite how great they're doing or whatever. And now his Mom, he knows it's too late, but he can't accept. Even though that's the I think so I was telling my Mom, I was like, "That's what I don't get." He's not going to put her in prison.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: If you feel guilt or whatever, that's the point. Right? You have a shitload of money to put her in the best facility.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And then visit her all fucking day. Take her to Panera all day. I don't care. But there's a twenty four/seven structure now, infrastructure, to take care of this woman. That is what's so odd to me. You know what I mean? I don't, I can't compute that. It's like, right, if you -

THERAPIST: It actually really would be better care.

CLIENT: Of course it would be better care.

THERAPIST: This is not like, "I'm guilty so I'm going to make sure we take care of her at home."

CLIENT: Right. Right, right, yeah. This is like some kind of make shift My aunt's there, these Assyrian women come and go. And even they are starting to hint that, you know, this is now kind of We'll keep doing it but this is getting out of control. You know? [00:32:52]

(long pause)

THERAPIST: Do you know how your grandfather treated your grandmother?

CLIENT: Probably not great. I mean years ago before the grandkids were around. And he wasn't great after we were all born, but he wasn't awful.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: He was just a hard head. You know, my grandfather never drove in the United States.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Never bothered to really learn English. Never used these amazing skills as a tailor that he had.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: He could have done so So there was, you know, in that way that is hurting my grandmother. Right? I mean your wife, you're making this more difficult than it has to be. [00:33:58]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: Other than that, I don't know. I mean, I guess he was, you know, if she said something kind of silly or whatever, he'd either kind of laugh at her or whatever. But generally that was just an endearing thing. Because they were so different in that my grandfather was like he could talk about Nietzche and Kierkegaard. And I mean and this woman's like, she was an orphan.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I mean she has no idea nor does she care. My grandma just didn't really care. She just wanted to Just a pleasant woman. You know what I mean? There's no need to talk about such heavy things. You know?

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: But, yeah, he would order her to do He'd be like, "Helen, get me some yogurt." Like he would just order her to do things. You know? On the one hand, it's not great. On the other hand, I think a lot of, you know, that generation just kind of is what it is. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I don't remember them having, between them, major issues. [00:35:04]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: All those years of marriage, I don't remember. They were, you know, they were like roommates. You know, at that point they were like roommates. And sometimes she would get on his nerves or he would get on her nerves a little bit. But they slept in separate rooms.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: You know? But then they would go have coffee together every day.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know.

(long pause) [00:36:05]

CLIENT: Yeah. Weird. Weird fucking family. When I think about all those times when I was a teenager, that's weird.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And I would rebel and I would have big arguments with them. It's like, "What is?"

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And it's another thing, like not integrated.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I look back and go, "What the fuck was going on here?" Like I would get so enraged. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm. Usually about politics?

CLIENT: Yeah, politics with her prejudice or whatever.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Or if they pissed me off because of the way I was dressed or the way I looked or whatever. Just really bad. Even with my grandfather, some really bad blowups.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? And in retrospect, I don't even understand what that It's just so weird.

THERAPIST: What was happening.

CLIENT: Yeah. There was so much love and yet there were these weird, I don't know. Like I never doubted that my grandfather loved me.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? Maybe it was because I loved him so much that these things bothered me so much. [00:37:07]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But still it was just so odd. I don't think it would have been that way. If you're raised differently you don't feel a need to be so combative. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: It was like a three year period, two to three years, and it just passed. You know? But (pause)

THERAPIST: Mm. You're trying at that point to take something up in the family.

CLIENT: Take something up?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, these kinds of things that might come out in a political debate that are kind of paranoia, bias, discrimination, idealization of certain things that really, really bothered you to know.

CLIENT: Oh yeah, yeah. And I thought that you could, yeah, you're a kid, that I could change their minds. [00:38:09]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like I could -

THERAPIST: Which is also, like that's adolescent. Right?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Very typical. Come home with a mission and -

CLIENT: Right. Right. But, yeah, it would get so out of control. So out of control.

THERAPIST: Mm. That's part of what I think is unusual about it. Something would let it escalate.

CLIENT: Well, because they were so You're a kid. You don't realize what these people are dragging around with them.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That all just built So it's not just a regular, I mean, they've got a whole history.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So what they think about Reagan or whatever is not just what some typical American thinks. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: They've got a whole fucking thing about the cold war and communism and, you know, all that. Freedom and just leaving us alone so we can work and make money. And whatever, all that stuff. So as a kid you don't quite understand that.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know? And they also wouldn't get that, "Oh, he's a kid. That's okay." Like they wouldn't humor me about it at all. [00:39:13]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It would just be like this, "You don't understand. Stop saying things like that."

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Like really it would get really aggressive. You know?

THERAPIST: Right. It's another example of them not meeting you developmentally.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Escalating it further as though you're thirty five having this argument.

CLIENT: Right, right, right. Or like, "How dare you?"

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: "This is not your place," or whatever.

THERAPIST: Instead of valuing that, you know, you're thinking about your own thoughts and having your own mind.

CLIENT: Right, right, right. Yeah, it annoyed them but I was smart.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, they were annoyed that I could back up things I was saying, you know. And, of course, now we totally agree on all that stuff. I never bring it up -

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: but, you know. Even with my grandfather. You know, as soon as Iraq number one happened, everything (laughs) Clinton was the greatest guy ever.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know, "This is some kind of What the hell is going on? This is some kind of imperialist power." (growling sound) You know. So almost now to the other extreme a little bit.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's just, you know.

THERAPIST: Hm. (pause) [00:40:31]

CLIENT: Just there's no, you know. See that's the thing. And then none of this was ever with my Dad. Never. Never. I don't remember having any arguments with him.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: I mean regular, like kid arguments. Like I came home late or whatever. You know what I mean. But never, like just the guy just didn't give a shit. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: He's like, "Who the fuck cares." (pause)

THERAPIST: Although that's not you either.

CLIENT: Well, when I say, "Who the fuck cares?" incredibly My Dad was super A lot of the sensitivity I had, because I think more my Dad than my Mom. My Mom is very sensitive but she has my grandfather's, she can be tough.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: My Dad was tough, but really my Dad was a super, super sensitive guy.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: I think when I say, "Who cares?" it's more like -

THERAPIST: What are we having this fight for?

CLIENT: Yeah. "Are you going to go to Assyria and change anything? Then shut the fuck up." Like that kind of thing. You know? [00:41:33]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And also I think they really hate people that think they know everything.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, my Dad really, that's when he would get angry. You know? We're trying to have a fucking Sunday dinner -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: and this huge argument. You know? Then he would get really angry. You know? Because he'd feel like, rightfully so, that my peaceful Sunday dinner is being infringed upon by idiocy.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? So then he would get upset, and at my Mom too. Because see my Mom can't control herself. And in that way, I guess I am that way. Yeah. Like I have trouble.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: My Dad was really good and controlling. Like I have a little, you know, if people go on and on and on and on, it's hard for me to not smack them down.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm. (laughs)

CLIENT: And my Mom's like that. So he'd get just upset at the whole, you know.

THERAPIST: Like want people to disengage.

CLIENT: And then be upset that his wife, because out of all them my Mom is the smartest one. [00:42:34]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So she would be the one that would speak up and bah, bah, bah and, you know, whatever. So I think he'd feel like just, you know, "Just make the coffee." (laughs) Like just do whatever. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm. (pause) So we will have a little break. We'll meet Friday?

CLIENT: Okay. Friday. Oh that's right. Holy shit.

THERAPIST: The holiday is here.

CLIENT: Okay. Have a great Christmas.

THERAPIST: Wednesday, Thursday we won't meet. I mean on Friday. You're around.

CLIENT: Right, Friday. I'm here, yeah, yeah. Alright. And also, Abby, let me know, are you going to deposit that next week or when?

THERAPIST: Would you prefer that?

CLIENT: Can you?

THERAPIST: Next week. Yeah. That's fine.

CLIENT: Okay. Thanks. Have a wonderful Christmas.

THERAPIST: Thank you. You too.

CLIENT: Thank you. See you Friday.

END TRANSCRIPT