TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: ...considering what we have been through. It looks like it is just raining now. (sigh) I woke up at six-thirty, I was at the cafe at eight.

THERAPIST: Wow!

CLIENT: Finished the blog post by ten-thirty.

THERAPIST: Oh my goodness.

CLIENT: I wrote a pretty good blog. I mean, I hope they like it but I wrote a blog post about pretty much my favorite poet for the website. I didn’t really get into any analysis. It ended up just being like a, you know, my teenage year or two when I discovered this guy. Coming to the Square and hanging out at all the used book stores for hours and hours. You know, whatever. I hope they like it. I don’t know. I like it. I don’t care if they like it. But, yeah.

CLIENT” Yeah, so yeah, so it was cool. It was kind of weird too. I didn’t even struggle much. I just wrote it. I didn’t over think it. I like it and I hope they like it. I don’t know. I don’t really care. It came out nice. [00:01:25]

And then I told Chuck, I told my former professor, my supervisor at UConn about you writing the letter. And he was like, I think he was like, “That is all we need.” (laughs) He is like, “That should be more than enough.” I was like, “I guess I could get a death certificate.” I said, “I said I would really like to avoid having to do that.”

He is like, “You don’t have to do that. That should be more than enough.” So I guess what I will do is maybe get you whoever it has to be addressed to if that is okay.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. And also if there is anything more specific about what they need it to say. Does it have to say, “Couldn’t be enrolled.” Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yeah. I think it basically has to show that there, in your medical opinion, there are clear reasons why I wasn’t able to just consistently see it through and had to drop out or whatever happened. Or that I couldn’t register. But I can find out though more if there is something specific, the wording or whatever. Yeah. But that is pretty cool. It makes it a lot easier. (laughs) [00:02:43]

(pause)

CLIENT: So, yeah, pretty good. (pause) Yeah, it is very interesting how it has just been a getting shit done kind of week. So different from You know, like yesterday I changed my light bulb in my car. I changed the windshield wipers. These are such little things but it has just been a lot of these little thing, you know, throughout. I am just checking things off, you know?

And some big things. I mean, getting an airline ticket and this, whatever, UConn. Pretty good. I am even kind of excited and hopeful now about going to Assyria. Not too excited and hopeful (laughs) but excited and hopeful. [00:03:53]

THERAPIST: Ordinary excitement and ordinary hopefulness.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: What do you make of getting so much done all of a sudden?

CLIENT: I think last week, like I said, that was just a major, you know. You know what it is like? What was it two Septembers ago or whatever? When I just had that volcanic eruption at my Mom. That was with my Mom. And I think this one was with the whole family. They clearly don’t get that, of course. But for me, something in me just shut down in a good way. You know?

It is like a river that the water is being directed a certain way but it is being wasted. You know? Now that that is shut down it is being channeled properly. You know? Yeah. I just, I don’t know. So like now my Mom, she is complaining or whatever, if she sounds like, “blah,” you know. I just kind of don’t care. That part of me is shut down. [00:05:16]

Now the only thing that sucks is I also have nothing to say to her. I feel bad kind of. Like I am suddenly just not even sharing certain things. But, you know, I even thought about that. I was like, “Oh, I kind of hate that.”

Well who would? I live there? Do you know what I mean? It is different when you don’t live in the same building. You don’t see each other that often. You don’t talk that often. So then of course you have things to say.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:05:41) and catch up.

CLIENT: Yeah, you kind of want to catch up and you kind of enjoy it and you know you are going to be out of there. But when you live above your parents, I mean, what the fuck is there to talk about? It is just, it is too much. It has served its purpose but You know? So, yeah, I think that is what happened. I just think once that part, you know, got shut off all this other stuff got reenergized and focused.

(long pause)

CLIENT: It is funny because I was writing this thing and it is supposed to be 500 to 600 words, right? So at the beginning I was like, “Oh, 80 words.” Then I just stopped. I don’t know what happened. It wasn’t even conscious. I just stopped looking at the word count and I just didn’t care. [00:06:57]

And the next thing I knew it was like 780 words. You know? I don’t know. I think I just kind of don’t care anymore. I don’t care if sounds academic or this kind of analysis of that. (laughs) I am just going to write about it the way I want to write about it. You know? I am not a moron. You know?

Whereas, in the past I am like, “Oh, I am an idiot. What is the insight of these poems. I don’t get it. I don’t know how to talk about them. Mm.” Fuck that. (pause)

THERAPIST: It is like trusting more in your own mind.

CLIENT: Yeah, why do I have to sound like some academic? I don’t want to sound like that. Part of me envies, but it is like envying anything. It is like saying, “Wow, Claire, is such a good “but it doesn’t mean I want to be a psychologist. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Yeah, just because I am a writer doesn’t mean I am going to write every genre of writing.

THERAPIST: Of course.

CLIENT: Who the fuck gives a shit. I don’t want to. I envy others who write amazing academic papers that are But I don’t want to do that. Who reads their papers anyway? Nobody. [00:08:05]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. (laughs)

CLIENT: So it is like, what am I I am all caught up in something that is just ridiculous. So. (pause)

THERAPIST: As opposed to being yourself and letting out what comes from you.

CLIENT: Yeah. That is all. Yeah. That is it.

THERAPIST: Whatever style that comes out.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Trusting it.

CLIENT: Well and also, not only trusting but being like, “What?” It is like, I mean I am not comparing myself to any great writer but it is like a really good writer who is like, “Oh, geez. Well, I don’t know. I mean, I wrote this great collection of short stories but could I really write a history of Darien.” Like what the? Who cares?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Those people want to write these short stories. Don’t worry about that. Just do what you do. So. (pause) I wrote an e-mail to London, to the registrar. I was like, “Look, I was a student done with all the course work. I just need to reregister and finish my dissertation. You know, this guy is my supervisor,” blah, blah. You know, “We just want to know how to proceed.” [00:09:20]

(long pause)

THERAPIST: It sounds like in part it becomes clear that those things are really what you want, as opposed to doing something that someone else wants you to do.

CLIENT: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like as opposed to the Brown thing. I don’t have any interest really in going back, finishing. But these two things are in my field, they are with people and professors I care about who have been good to me. You know? So I just want to see it through. And obviously it will help me professionally. Especially when you are that close. They are both about handing in your final piece. So. [00:10:39]

THERAPIST: And they both will help you with what you want to do.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Not what someone else wants you to do. But what you are increasingly (ph) wanting to do yourself.

CLIENT: Right.

(long pause)

CLIENT: It is even good in the sense that like today at the cafe I was feeling a little bit like restless energy. Like kind of antsy and a little bit (takes a breath). But I am able to catch that and be like, “Well, you are going to feel that way because now you are doing things.” It is called energy and adrenaline or whatever you want to call it. You know? [00:11:41]

So it is like you’re up at fucking You are at a cafe at eight a.m. And you are writing and you are focused. And it is just a little bit You know, like I am even just instead of saying it is unnerving or it is rattling it is just, I don’t know, whatever you want to call it, just living or just being very productive. And when you are very productive you feel a certain energy. (pause, tapping sounds)

It helps to call it something different. You know what I mean? Instead of calling it negative things. Well if that is the case I am always going to feel rattled and unnerved. I mean, if you are going to be doing things and feeling that way you have got to change how you view what that feeling is. You know? It is the feeling of someone not familiar with those feelings. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm hm. (laughs) Like feeling awake, period.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It is filled with lots of pulsing energy.

CLIENT: Right. Possibilities.

THERAPIST: It could even be hard to sit still -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: because there is so much energy. And writing, you have to sort of own (ph) that and focus it. [00:12:51]

CLIENT: Right. Yeah.

THERAPIST: But that is a good thing.

CLIENT: Right.

(long pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, it is like, you know, it is just like the physical sensations they change. Do you know what I mean? Like I feel more tingly and, do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And even that I have to be like, “Alright. Well, that is, yeah, because you got up at a different hour. You are up and about doing shit. You are hopeful and excited about stuff. You are “ You know? A lot of possibilities and this and that. Of course, if you are not used to that kind of thing. [00:14:06]

But you are also trying to temper it. You know what it is? It is hard to know what is normal in a way. I am always very hyper vigilant about that. You know, I don’t want to go either extreme. So for the time being I feel like I have to be a little hyper vigilant about that until, I guess, I don’t think about it anymore.

THERAPIST: You know, Brian, the things you are doing do not sound Like you don’t sound hypo-manic, for example.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: When you say “hyper vigilant” to there being too much about it, for example, it sounds like this is what it feels like when your body starts to become more alive.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. No, I just mean hyper vigilant just because I am not used to any of this. I am kind of like -

THERAPIST: So hyper vigilant to what?

CLIENT: Just making sure that it stays the way it is. (laughs) That I don’t go to any extremes. I mean, I am not that type anyway, I guess. I don’t have that in my history to become manic or this or that. Right? I don’t think so. [00:15:16]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Yeah, when I use that word it loosely using as a kind of in a personality defense way. Not, you do not have bipolar disorder. You have never had bipolar disorder, for example. Like true mania, that is not you.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: People can have manic defenses though where it is a kind of retreated place into a kind of grandiose fantasy place that protects them from deficits in self-esteem.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: That is different than a formal Axis I disorder. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Right, right. Yeah, it is different than what Terry used to do. Like cleaning your apartment at three a.m. or doing different projects.

THERAPIST: Yeah. That has never been you.

CLIENT: Yeah. But, yeah, I see what you are saying. What you are describing is true. And, yeah, and I am not doing that. I am not doing that. So I guess what I am saying about hyper vigilant is staying in this healthy It just feels good and I worked too hard to get here. So I feel like until it becomes second nature, which maybe it already has. [00:16:20]

Maybe I am over thinking it a little bit. But I can’t help it. I am just like, “Alright.” This feels good. I feel even keel somehow, whatever. I got to this point. (laughs) So I am just kind of like, “Okay.” It is almost like checking in with myself. You know, like, “Oh, yeah. I am still even keel. Alright. Great. Keep going.” I don’t know.

THERAPIST: I just don’t think you can go backwards from here. You have done too much. It is in you.

CLIENT: That is true.

THERAPIST: In other words, once you know what know about the manic defense you can’t make it unconscious again. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: That is true. Yeah. That is true.

THERAPIST: It might be -

CLIENT: Once you open that door you can’t just That is true.

THERAPIST: You might wish you could know less because ignorance is bliss sometimes.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: I mean it could go there for five minutes or an hour or something.

CLIENT: Right. That is true.

THERAPIST: But you know too much about it.

CLIENT: Yeah, that is true. Like with music, right?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: That is just done. Like now it just seems like a healthy Like I am always going to do music. I am always going to take it seriously. But who know what that means? Do you know what I mean? It doesn’t mean necessarily I am going to tour or do this or do that. I just know that I will always do it. [00:17:32]

THERAPIST: And that doesn’t even mean you can’t have hope -

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: or even a conscious fantasy. “Wouldn’t that be great if “ Right?

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: Those are ordinary and healthy to have.

CLIENT: That is normal. Yeah, Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: But it is within reality.

CLIENT: Right. Right. Right.

THERAPIST: It is not an escape from reality.

CLIENT: Right. Right. Yeah.

THERAPIST: That kind of place. So I just don’t think it is possible for this to get undone and go away.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It is just in you.

CLIENT: That is good to hear. Yeah. Maybe that is why I am getting more writing done. Just because, yeah, it is just what I do. And I don’t really care if it is, you know. I don’t know. I just care less, I guess, about the outcome or what people are going to think or this or -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I am just kind of tired of all that. (pause) Or, it is also that another part. If I were to care what people think, I am focusing on the important part which is everybody loves my writing and my music. Do you know what I mean? [00:18:44]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: That is the track record. There is not track record of, “You suck.” I wouldn’t have done any of these things. I mean, you know? And, again, without being grandiose. It is just people see some talent, they have encouraged me and pushed me. They love what I do for whatever reason. That is great so just keep doing it. I mean, it is not without, you know. (pause) Hm.

THERAPIST: You know, in a way, [you are talking about be like that theme] (ph) around music and writing. I think deeper still you have been letting go of that in your family. And the long term kind of wedded-ness to wanting to keep those ties and sort of keeping (inaudible at 00:19:46) a particular place, including not speaking your mind about something in order to keep the peace.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And this moment of just breaking out of that with your grandmother is a moment where it is not what is running the show anymore.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It just isn’t.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Whether they like it or not.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You are going to say. You spoke your mind.

CLIENT: Right. Right. (pause) Yeah. Well, I mean I have always said, it is like being bullied. People get bullied by their families dysfunctions. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Sometimes in blatant extreme ways. And in my case just, you know, from the outside it is hard to see. It seems like a great family and everything. And it is a great family on many levels. But on this particular, these kind of neuroses and no communication and no true understanding of each individual, separate and equal worth and this and that, that is exhausting. You know? It is exhausting. It is exhausting. [00:21:04]

(long pause)

THERAPIST: Now, Brian, I think a kind of parable of what is happening to your grandmother right now and what is making you [infuriated in reality], (ph) is such an example of the kinds of ways that you got neglected yourself.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And how her basic self-care, the care of her, has gotten deteriorated by people turning the other way and not attending and doing the hard thing that attending to and taking care of her. And that is what happened to you.

CLIENT: Well, see but it was even worse. If it was actual neglect it would be black and white. What sucks about this kind of dysfunction is it is not black and white. They are taking care of her. It is just not the right kind of Do you know what I mean.

THERAPIST: Absolutely.

CLIENT: It is all this martyrdom and weird inconsistent kind of shit. You know? And that is the same thing with me.

THERAPIST: (cross talking at 00:22:18) taking care of her.

CLIENT: Well, right.

THERAPIST: Even though it can look like that on the surface.

CLIENT: Right. That is what I mean.

THERAPIST: It is like your mother’s suffocating ministrations of your body could look like, “I am taking care of you.”

CLIENT: Yeah. That is what I mean.

THERAPIST: But actually you’re smothering.

CLIENT: That is what I mean. Yeah. Exactly.

THERAPIST: You are doing things that are not (inaudible at 00:22:32).

CLIENT: Right. Right. And then what happens is Like today she called me in the morning, she is worried, “Where am I?” You know. But, dude, what the? I have stuff to do. And she is so concerned about the weather. It is like, how? We are from here. I mean. It is like that is not really helping anything. You are just annoying the shit out of me. And it is not You know, it is that kind of thing.

But if you say something you are hurting their feelings because they are calling you just to check and make sure you are okay. It is like this very convoluted, complicated Where the only thing to be done is to get away. You have to. When I was in London she wasn’t calling me every day about anything. Do you know what I mean? (laughs) Somehow that distance just, you know. (pause)

Or I am sure, you know, if I lived in Belmont or something. It is just that when you are literally in the same property they regress, you regress. You know, whatever. It is very difficult to [00:23:44]

(long pause, tapping sounds)

THERAPIST: It is just another way that, [this phone call you got today], (ph) it is like it can look like I am worried about you and taking care of you but actually it is kind of her own anxiety.

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: It has nothing to do with you.

CLIENT: That is right. That is right. That is a better to put it. It is her own nervousness and neuroses instead of really just like, “Oh, I wonder how Brian is doing?”

THERAPIST: And then her own use of you. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like calling you for her not for you.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, again, that is exactly And go ahead and try to explain that. I mean, it is impossible. [00:24:58]

THERAPIST: Oh yeah.

CLIENT: So the only thing left to be done, either you are never going to answer the phone, you know, or you have just got to -

THERAPIST: What is most important, I think, and that this is, I think, hard to parse out with the idea of actually physically being separated, is the separation from her internally.

CLIENT: Well, yeah.

THERAPIST: Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: That she is an internal object (cross talking at 00:25:28).

CLIENT: That is what I am trying to say about what happened last week.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: As much as I went to London, I have been working at this.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: It has been getting here but I think this was the real Something in me was like, “Yeah. You know.” It is just like they don’t face all the realities so I decided I am going face them. (laughs) Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like, you know, my Mom is who she is and she is old now. Once you hit 70 you are kind of old. So I can’t be caught up in her whatever-ness. I mean, it is kind of sad that her retirement, this that, it is not different. But actually a lot of that is up to her. Do you know what I mean? No one is forcing her to do anything. Cole wasn’t forcing her to do anything.

He mishandled things, I think, but she is also I mean, you are not a fucking baby. And she is living in an amazing city. Enjoy it. You have girlfriends. Fucking go do shit. I don’t know. So it is really like, “You know what? I am done. I am just kind of done with you.” I mean, you want to mope around, whatever, complain, this that, go ahead. But it doesn’t, it just doesn’t have the same power any more. You know? [00:26:48]

THERAPIST: Yeah. It is like being done with feeling so responsible for her mind too.

CLIENT: Responsible or just constantly wanting to change it and make her see things and kind of wake her up. It is like kind of trying to wake them all up but you can’t. You can’t do it. They have to want that and they don’t. So, you know.

THERAPIST: It is just sad.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean it is but you know one It is becoming less sad a little bit. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Well, it is freeing too.

CLIENT: Yeah. Freeing. It is like, you know what? They had their chance. I mean, I am sorry but, you know, you are old now And I can’t, you know. It is like some people well into their old age are dynamic and this and that. These people aren’t. You know, they are just stuck in their ways and that is just the way it is going to go. So, you know. (pause) [00:28:03]

THERAPIST: See I think even deeper still than saying, “Okay, they are old, they are stuck, they are not going to change now,” is your recognition in yourself that you don’t need to take care of her anymore.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: In other words -

CLIENT: Or feel guilty.

THERAPIST: Or feel guilty if you don’t. I think that has been so sewn into the fabric of the relationship with her in ways that are still coming to light.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That you haven’t even realized how much you have been doing that since you were a child. Like her call, “I am worried about you in snow.” What is happening in that phone call is you are taking care of her, not the opposite.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And now you imagine that anxiety, that neurosis, that stuff getting played out in a five year old and a ten year old. When you are actually a kid still, I imagine. And she is turning to you in ways to work out things that are about taking care of her mind. So you have been so pulled into that. [00:29:05]

You have talked about this. I mean, this is the dynamic of your relationships with women for a very long time. Getting to know them. Helping them, their minds. And you are hidden. And I think this is sort of another layer of saying, “I don’t need to do that anymore.”

CLIENT: Right. Right. And the unfortunate thing is they are all like that. So it wasn’t like, well at least I have my other aunts and uncles who are like, “Come on, Ginny, don’t.”

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: They are all in some ways worse and in some ways not worse, but they are all I mean, my uncle is like Between him and his wife he is the one that smothers his children. I have told you before. Like he used to be up all night ironing their shit and this. And it is like, “Dude, what the? Tell them to iron their own shit and take out the garbage. What is the matter with you?” You know?

I don’t know what it is. It is just obviously something with their parents that they have that is passed down. I don’t fucking know. But, yeah, when you put it that way, yeah, it is intense. When you think of it that way, that each one of those interactions is about their own -

THERAPIST: Them.

CLIENT: Yeah, it is about them. [00:30:16]

THERAPIST: Including something like I mean, think about ironing a shirt. It can look like I am doing this favor for my child but actually what is happening is you are not allowing the child to learn the responsibility to go iron the shirt himself if he wants it ironed.

CLIENT: Yeah. And then now a couple of years later, now you are all stressed and freaked out because your oldest kid can’t deal with college. Well, why do you think?

THERAPIST: Guess why. (laughs) It wasn’t good for him that you were ironing his shirt at that age.

CLIENT: Right, right. Or constantly getting them take out. Come on, you know? But, yeah, no, they all have it. I mean now with my other aunt, after this whole thing, I kind of hate to say it but now I understand why I think her children kind of can’t deal with her, I think. She is so out there. I mean I love her, I love her but I am not her kid.

And I wonder if maybe they just can’t take it anymore. You know? A lifetime of that level of paranoia and she has no fucking friends. She has no life, kind of. (pause) So, yeah it is just [00:31:31]

(very long pause, sigh)

CLIENT: That is a really good way to put it. That is very helpful. That each one of those interactions is about her grappling with her own anxieties and weird fears and worries and this and that. That then I had to take all these years to try to, you know, overcome. [00:32:38]

THERAPIST: Well there is no creative space then to just form your own identity.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because you are constantly being smothered by her brain (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Even in ways that would look like taking care of you it actually was still neglect.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And that is what is funny about a thing like ironing a shirt.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: That can be a form of neglect because it is neglecting taking care of the child’s needs to learn to be responsible for certain things.

CLIENT: To be individuals.

THERAPIST: To be individuals. To start taking care of things like that.

CLIENT: Yeah. And the thing is, you know, it is not just my family but I have noticed a lot of these kind of immigrant, extended family, tight night, whatever. Anything like that kind of what you just said, I mean, it literally means nothing to them. Because do you know what they will say? “One day when you have kids you will understand.” You can’t win. The conversation [00:33:41]

THERAPIST: [They just don’t get it.] (ph)

CLIENT: Yeah. It is never even a conversation. They just listen and then they overreact and get defensive and this and that. And then they just end up by saying, “You have no idea. When you have a kid then we will see how you do.” You know? It is like, alright, then I guess there is nothing to talk about. I mean, then, you know.

THERAPIST: Which again is a repetition of exactly the same thing. What is in your mind doesn’t count, it doesn’t matter.

CLIENT: Yeah, it doesn’t. Yeah, exactly.

THERAPIST: Brian, your opinion is worth shit. We know.

CLIENT: We always know what is better for you. Which is sad because that doesn’t give you room to be like, “Oh, yeah. You know what? My Mom was right about this, this and this.”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I have got no problem with that. Of course parents are right about a lot of things.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: They are older. They have been through shit. But when it is this level what happens is then you, even the good advice, you don’t want to take it.

THERAPIST: You shut it all out.

CLIENT: Because you are so angry and smothered. And, of course, that is a vicious cycle. You know? Well, I told you that you should. You know? So you keep seeming weak and lesser and this and that. [00:34:52]

(pause, tapping sounds)

CLIENT: So, yeah, I mean in that way it is very liberating to Because then you can be sad, you can be angry, whatever. But now it is, I don’t know. You are outside just kind of observing it. You will be like, “Yeah, that sucks.” (laughs) And it does. It is heavy and it is intense. But you are not still drowning in it. You know? And relief is a big thing. Do you know what I am saying? So even if you feel those emotions about it that is not the same thing as being controlled by it. [00:35:52]

(long pause)

Yesterday I went with George (sp) to the bar. Have you been there? Under the Commons.

THERAPIST: I think once a long time ago.

CLIENT: It was fun, but do you one thing that felt good about being there? This means nothing to me anymore? Do you know what I mean? I think I started feeling excited at that place. I was like, “What am I doing here?” Just these typical frumpy fucking Baltimore And it is a slightly older following that they have. [00:36:54]

I mean it is the worst of all combinations. It is like, you know, hyper Anglicized mixed with It is just bad combinations of all things. Everything from shitty fucking white trash Irishy Darien people to these frumpy Protestant Anglicized type people. I mean, just hippie dippies. That is great. Of course, they are not lesser than me. It is just not my place. It is just not m place.

They are holding on to their youth and they are just acting silly. The music was good. The music was good. But it is just like nowhere is perfect but I don’t want to be here. And then I started You know, there was a writer for the paper there. I saw people that I kind of know. I was like, wow, I used to be really concerned. Like, “Is he going to write about us? How do we get him to write about us?” [00:38:04]

Look at him. This fucking idiot. Who cares. Who cares. He is like a half alcoholic just lumbering pasty white dude. I mean, who gives a shit? This is the guy that I am Just this whole Darien scene. I could care less. I could absolutely care less and it is really liberating to finally just be done with that.

And I could care less about anywhere. I don’t care if I move to Paris. I am just done with this like, “I need to be accepted in this community.” And, “Who are the cool people. They need to know about me and what I do.” Just no interest. The whole time I was like, “Oh, my God. I want to home and make a ham sandwich.” (laughs)

It was fun being with George (ph), you know, whatever and listening to great music. But I was like, “I don’t care.” (pause) [00:39:16]

THERAPIST: The writer becomes just a guy.

CLIENT: The what?

THERAPIST: The writer from the paper.

CLIENT: Yeah. And not just a guy. A guy that otherwise I don’t even want to talk to this guy. He is an idiot. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I mean people just become what they really are, which is, number one, just people. And then a lot of time people I don’t even want to deal with anyway. (inaudible at 00:39:40) I mean, you know. Yeah, there are certain musicians, yeah, I do kind of want to network with them. But it is like one of my poetry professors said, “You network with the people you want to network with.” Instead of wanting just blanket -

THERAPIST: Needing everyone to (inaudible at 00:39:57)

CLIENT: Right. Right. Or giving certain people unnecessary value, or whatever, that they are somehow so amazing and this and that. Or that their word is the word.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Right like this writer. You still might want to network with him for your own purposes but because it is of value to you, not because he is a god.

CLIENT: Yeah. Exactly.

THERAPIST: He is just a guy. I mean, I think this is what you are describing with your family. They have just become people.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: With sad things (cross talking at 00:40:38).

CLIENT: I told my cousin that. I was like, you know, I have always felt this way but now it is part of who I am now. So I have to act on it. Which is that I love them but I don’t like them. If these were just people, right, that I met at your house at a dinner party, I would just talk to you and other people. I would have no interest in these people. None. And quite frankly, what would their interest in me be. Right?

Unless my uncle, like we invited a writer to our house. You know, they would want to just that kind of typical shit. Otherwise, we have no connection. So what am I doing? I don’t have time for that. It is like you can love them and you can care about them. And there is no need to be, like I am not going to excommunicate them or I am not going to not keep in But I just don’t care or my expectations and my investment are, pffft, night and day. (pause) And I didn’t even bring coffee with me. Did you notice? [00:41:56]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

(pause, tapping sounds)

THERAPIST: That is one of the first times.

CLIENT: Yeah. I thought about it. I was like, “Oh, I will go to Levi.” You know what? I don’t like Levi coffee. Why am I? I mean?

THERAPIST: (laughs) It is terrible.

CLIENT: Right? Thank you. It is like how much milk do I have to put it in it for it to do something?

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: That is good that someone else thinks that. (pause) I think that what is happening Have you ever read C.S. Lewis?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I don’t know how this is connected to him but I think it is. I think what is happening is that I am doing something now that has always been in me, but it is sporadic and, you know, one step forward three steps back. Which is to just feel kind of like joy. Not happiness. I don’t like happiness. I have no interest in happiness or depression or whatever, you know. [00:43:06]

There is melancholy and there is You know, these are more graceful and deeper things. You know? And I think what I feel now is joy, or more sustained joy. I always felt it. But then I would be fucked up the ass by all this shit that I have to deal with. Now I just Do you know what I mean?

Like I think of my friend and I feel joy. I think about what I am doing with my life. I feel joy. I don’t know what the fuck is going to happen and I kind of don’t care anymore. You know? And that is something they have never been able to do. And that has caused me great pain that they can’t because I can.

And I have always been able to. Do you know what I mean? Because that is from my Dad’s side and maybe my grandmother. She is always basically My grandmother has always been joyful, always. I have never known this woman to be in a bad mood. Honestly. And they just don’t have it. They might think they do, whatever. They don’t. They don’t. And that is a big deal. That is a really big deal. [00:44:10]

(pause)

THERAPIST: You have been so weighed by down by them.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: [Inside and out.] (ph) (inaudible at 00:44:32) And then there is room to feel lots of things.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Who knows? It could be joy. But then when you feel joy it is real (ph).

CLIENT: Well the thing about joy is that it is not about skipping down the street.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know, it is just about, wow, feeling gratitude and just like, “Oh, here I am right now.” Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And, you know, “Claire is so nice. My friends are so great.” Like very simple things that, you know, what else do you need really? You know? But that is hard work. I have worked hard to be here and they, not just they, a lot of people don’t. I mean this is why there is a lot of my friends I don’t keep in touch with. There is nothing to talk about.

You know, I am trying to reach a different level of enlightenment and most people aren’t. And that is great. I mean, in a way I envy that but that is not who I am. It is just I don’t have anything to talk about with those people. And that is okay. I mean, I don’t have to force myself to talk to Mike twice a week. [00:45:32]

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: It is not a problem. You know, I still love the guy and, you know. (pause)

THERAPIST: Tomorrow.

CLIENT: 2:20.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Thank you, Claire.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: See ya.

THERAPIST: Okay.

END TRANSCRIPT