TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

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THERAPIST: … e-mail.

CLIENT: I got that one.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But not… No. What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Did you respond? Because I haven’t even checked yet…

CLIENT: Oh, I did, I did.

THERAPIST: … whether [you responded?] [unclear].

CLIENT: Yes, I just [unclear], yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. That’s what I wrote, but I just wanted to double check since…

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: … it’s not a password if it’s… I didn’t know when you changed it.

CLIENT: Yeah, no, it’s a good question, yeah, yeah. Oh, man. So I forgot I’m using my mom’s car. My checks are in my other car, I’m sorry. I didn’t bring any from home, but next week I’ll…

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Or I’ll try to drop one off early next week. So yeah. I feel better. I don’t know if I had allergies or I don’t know what it’s been. I’m starting to think maybe it was more allergies or something, I don’t know.

THERAPIST: There’s a cold going around.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think I’m getting it.

CLIENT: Oh, you’re getting it too. This year has been ridiculous. My blog post went up today on Penguin site.

THERAPIST: That’s great.

CLIENT: Yeah, cool.

THERAPIST: It looks really great, by the way. I had a chance to read it.

CLIENT: Oh, you did? Oh, cool.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it worked afterwards. I think it was just my computer having an issue.

CLIENT: Oh, you mean the blog I had sent you.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: That’s not what you’re referring to?

CLIENT: You mean the one about why I’m leaving to Assyrians?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: No, no, I had then had a blog post on the Penguin website today…

THERAPIST: Oh, okay, got it.

CLIENT: … about one of my favorite poets, yeah.

THERAPIST: So the one you sent me is just a personal…

CLIENT: That’s my own…

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, so it was okay?

THERAPIST: Yeah, it was great.

CLIENT: Yeah? Okay, cool. Cool. I’m still editing it again last night, so maybe I need to just let it go and just put it out there. I’m glad you liked it, that’s cool.

THERAPIST: I mean, as far as your editing it, that’s the only… one of the reactions I had was it felt like it was you but edited a little bit. Like not the rawer version of you… [00:02:00]

CLIENT: Really? I feel like that’s…

THERAPIST: … that I know in here. [laughs]

CLIENT: Oh, wow. Yeah. I mean, I think that happens to a lot of people that know me, friends or whatever, you know, if they haven’t… they know I’m a writer, but then when they do read stuff I’ve written I think it’s a different…

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I’m not one of those writers where I try to make like super colloquial, or like… I stylize it kind of, you know, but… But yeah.

THERAPIST: I’ve never seen you so exciting in writing so much.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: All of a sudden.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I even…

THERAPIST: [unclear]

CLIENT: Yeah. I even came up with… I don’t know why I didn’t crystallize this before, but like for my Ph.D. I wrote to Walter and I was like… See, I kinda haven’t known exactly what is my… the critical side of my… what the fuck am I writing about, trauma, the esthetic, I can’t seem to coalesce it. And as I was writing the e-mails I was like, why don’t I just write a fucking literary history of Assyrian-American literature? Has that really been written? No. The like chapters or this or that. Or the integrated into some other bigger… But there’s just like a history of Assyrian-American poetry. I was like, why the fuck didn’t I simplify this before and just do this? It’s like, yeah, a lot of it’s not great poetry, but who cares, it’s a legitimate literary history. I mean, you know. Anyway, so that simplifies that. I mean, as long as they’re okay with it, which I think they will be. But that’s much more straightforward, you have all the resources are readily available. It’s not like a translation or… And it also doesn’t force me to be overly like this dry academic. Like I can integrate this other stuff about trauma or whatever just into an interesting history. [4:15]

THERAPIST: [unclear], instead of having to analyze such…

CLIENT: Yeah, I’m just not… Right. Like that’s not my strong suit, I can’t take like one book by a poet and write a 60-page… it’s just not in me. I feel like I’m bullshitting, and I’m just not saying anything really interesting I think after a couple pages. So I’ll be good. And that way that can just dovetail with this UConn crap hopefully and just… you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So that’s good.

THERAPIST: Have you ever read Bromberg? Philip Bromberg?

CLIENT: Bromberg?

THERAPIST: He’s a psychoanalyst.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: You’d be interested I think in his work, just for the trauma side of things, it’s…

CLIENT: B-R-A…

THERAPIST: B-R-O-M-B-E-R-G.

CLIENT: Bromberg, I’ll remember that. What’s the first name?

THERAPIST: Philip.

CLIENT: [to self] Philip Bromberg, Philip Bromberg, Philip Bromberg.

THERAPIST: He’s done a lot of work about the concept of standing in the spaces, and dissociated self-states.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I just think in your experience of being in a space between cultures even, and spaces which [unclear] in your family…

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: He’s really…

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: He’s so much of what you talk about from a very psychoanalytic perspective.

CLIENT: Wow, that’s awesome. Wow. Bromberg, Bromberg, okay.

THERAPIST: I’ll send you the name in my…

CLIENT: Thank you, thank you.

THERAPIST: … e-mail.

CLIENT: Cool. Yeah. And then even like on… So on Facebook when I put my blog I’m being good about like… you know, that’s the thing I hate about this shit, is that I haven’t posted, like I told you, in quite a while, since I like whatever. But this is the kind of thing where you have to promote yourself, you can’t do shit and then not tell people about it.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. [00:06:00]

CLIENT: And with Facebook it’s like I don’t know who sees this shit anymore… Especially when you have a lot of friends, if you’re like… if you use it for networking and you have like a thousand, whatever, two thousand friends, it’s like… So that was interesting. I was like, see, I don’t want to be… that’s how I don’t want to be anymore. It’s out there. Whether people see it, they like it, they… I can’t… that’s so, it’s just too high school, I can’t be worried about little things like that. The important thing is I wrote it and it’s on the Penguin website, I don’t give a shit who sees it or who doesn’t see it. You know, but… like those are the kinds of things I think I want to… I mean, not that Assyria… I mean, it’s Facebook, it’s everywhere, everyone in Assyria’s on Facebook. But I just… it just bothers me.

THERAPIST: When you’re saying those kinds of things you’re saying disseminating is…

CLIENT: No, the feeling of like…

THERAPIST: The feeling that you’re worried about what people think.

CLIENT: … do people see it. Not even what they think, but why haven’t people commented on it, why haven’t they liked it? Who’s even seeing this?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like, are any of my friends seeing that I posted this? Like, it gets very high schooly on Facebook, you know. And… I mean, I’m not dwelling on it, but it’s something I’m aware of that I just… I don’t like that. You don’t have a choice when it’s something about professional stuff because you gotta get the word out somehow, you know. But… I think it’s the same thing as the thing you write, it’s like I just have to just put it out there for peer, like we just keep doing our thing, if that’s all you can do.

THERAPIST: Facebook’s [inaudible].

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. And there are so many articles now, even like studies now about how it fucks up with people’s relationships.

THERAPIST: It’s so destructive. [00:08:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. It’s like what do you do though, like do you just not… It’s like we all have to learn… It’s like McDonalds or something, you have to learn, you know, “Okay, I can eat McDonalds once a week, or once a month, but I can’t every day nibble on…” And I’m trying to do that, a lot of times I just don’t… like it’s not on my… You know, you have a bunch of tabs open?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s not on there. Even if I log in, I’ll just log in and log back out. I thought about deactivating it for a while. I’m like, “Yeah, but that’s just fooling yourself too.” I’m just going to log back on at some point. I mean, you know. So really I think it’s just about mental toughness and just separating yourself from it. Just using it as a tool and then forgetting about it.

THERAPIST: I think that’s the difference, of thinking of it as a tool, as opposed to kind of [unclear].

CLIENT: [Mirror?], or this bullshit idea that it is a community.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s not a fucking community. Because then that’s what communities are, right, gossiping, people talking about each other, who’s popular, who’s not. It’s not a community, it’s a bunch of whack jobs having a sandwich. Like it’s all random complete haphazard nonsense being run by this like jackass dropout wizard. I mean, it’s insane. I even read an article yesterday where unbelievably there was going to be a way initially, the idea was that when you log on to Facebook it would log you into everything, like all your other… it would be just a portal. But… [pause] Yeah.

And today my band, it’s our last day at the practice space. I haven’t seen my guys in quite a while. They want to get together and like kind of have a last practice or whatever, and I just can’t do it. I can’t do it. I’m not feeling that. It’s just… it’s too sad and weird, and I can’t take it like light hearted, “Let’s just jam.” You know, like. Because it’s a bummer, you know, it’s a real bummer. So I made up some excuse, and I was like, “No, maybe I’ll meet you guys afterwards for a drink or something.” Because what are we going to do, we’re going to go through the set? And then it’s like, “See ya.” Like, I just can’t do it, it feels weird. I want to record before I leave, but that’s different, because we’re getting together for a specific outcome. But this kinda like symbolic last practice in the space and… you know, I don’t like things like that. [00:10:50]

THERAPIST: And can you say [why you don’t?]?

CLIENT: I just don’t like it’s a little bit pretend. It bothers me that I’m having to break up this band, it bothers me that we didn’t get to practice all these last few months, it bothers me that… especially with Stu. I found this one guy who I have such musical chemistry. And it bothers me that I’m kind of… you know, hopefully we’ll be able to pick up at some point, but I can’t count on that now, you don’t know what’s going to happen. You know, it’s just a bummer. So I don’t want to go there and joke around and play and…

THERAPIST: [inaudible] these are really, really hard feelings.

CLIENT: Yeah, it’s sad. It’s sad.

THERAPIST: [inaudible]

CLIENT: And I can’t play while I’m feeling that. I mean, that’s a joyous… it doesn’t feel right, you know. To me at least. I can meet them afterwards for a drink, because then it could be a little more… that’s not a goodbye. I’ll see them before I go to Assyria or whatever, but the practice space, for me it’s just… I’m just bummed about that. [00:12:00]

THERAPIST: I wonder if you could say that to them.

CLIENT: In some ways I did. I mean, I still…

THERAPIST: That’s it’s just so sad I can’t bear it.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think I will at some point, but it was like I’m already just… there’s been so much… I kinda did, and I… like I made up some excuse. I mean, I also don’t feel 100% great anyway. But I made up some kind of excuse. But then, yeah, I did say like I really miss you guys, like this has been such a hard few months. And, you know, I’m just hoping that Assyria will reenergize me and at some point I’ll be able to be here the way I want to be here, instead of the way it’s kinda gone the last, you know, whatever. So.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: That’s one of the great losses about this [unclear].

THERAPIST: Yeah, it’s like other than this and my really good friend, and, you know, family, whatever. But yeah, it’s a good one. It’s a good one.

CLIENT: But again, yeah, I just… it is kinda like this, where it’s like I can’t not go to Assyria, because I found this great guy [completely?], and he’s not going to give up his job to… You know what I mean? Like what was going to be the end result of that anyway? It just it does feel good. Like it’s not like this, where this is practically leading, there’s a practicality that I see tangible. You know, yeah, maybe we’d record or whatever, but it’s… It wasn’t going to go much beyond. The only the way these guys would drop everything is if suddenly there was definitely money involved that they could live off of, and that’s not… you know. So.

So I don’t know. What I’m hoping is that with Stu, like things are so different now, there are so many musical projects of people that just send each other files, and you know, like things are so different that… you know, that would actually be fun. I can just him one song, he can send me back stuff, we could just kinda play around and just, you know. It’s a way to not lose our connection. [14:20]

And I was kinda serious with them that… I was like, “If you guys ever want to come to Assyria while I’m there.” I was like, “This isn’t like doing one of those European tour things where you can barely break even. Like we will make money here. Like you’ll go back at least with a few hundred bucks.” So if they really wanted to do that that would be pretty… It’s a big… I mean, I don’t expect them to, but… Or even if like Stu was like, “Yeah, look it, I’ll come there for a week and…” You know. But yeah, I just couldn’t go there and like have beers and like jam. Like that’s too bummed to do that. Yeah, it’s just too sad to do that. [pause]

I e-mailed Diane to see if I can get my mom a cat, like Cecelia.

THERAPIST: And so you got Sophia one?

CLIENT: Yeah, same one as I got. And matter of fact, it was weird, because Cecelia was an adult. Once in a while she has the breeders, the moms and the studs, or whatever the fuck they are, that she then… you can adopt them at a much less… you know, they’re expensive cats, whatever. And I saw one that looks almost exactly like Cecelia, except he’s a boy. So I don’t know. My mom said she doesn’t want one, but I feel bad about that too, I feel like my mom really loves Cecelia, you know, she really loves her. And I think it’s… I’m going to be gone, and this cute little… that was giving her a lot of joy. It just bums me out, you know. [00:16:00]

So I might just get her one and just tell her, “Listen, if you really can’t…” Because that’s how Diane is, like she’ll be like, “If you can’t handle it, I will take the cat back.” Like, “Don’t take it to… don’t just give it to anybody, or take it to an adopt…” So I think I might do that. You know, it’s 300 bucks, whatever. Yeah, it’s 300 bucks. But I think it’s been really good for my mom. And I think she can totally take care of it. She says she can’t, but you know. So.

THERAPIST: She just has a new one.

CLIENT: Yeah, she’s already… I’m going, and she’s being great about that. But then on top of that this little critter that, you know, like at least if she had that. And I feel bad that I can’t leave Cecelia with her. I mean, not that I… I can, I won’t.

THERAPIST: You don’t want to.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don’t want to. [pause] I don’t know, I mean, so far it feels like a good… like it was good to get the kind of tumultuous stuff out of the way, the February. I don’t know, like I’m hoping… Like I feel more excited now, I feel like untying loose ends, I feel… I don’t know. So I hope it kinda just stays a little more even keel.

THERAPIST: Did you get your unemployment reinstated?

CLIENT: No. Remember they cut…

THERAPIST: No, I know, I just didn’t know if they retroactively changed anything.

CLIENT: They kept… they tried it like two or three times, and they were kinda close, and of course the whatever, Republicans kept killing it. Well, and on top of that now, either this month or next month another… like the people right after me, they’re just gonna be cut off. Like it’s just like a… So another like two million people or whatever are gonna be cut off. [18:30]

THERAPIST: I just didn’t know how you were paying for what you have been dealing with.

CLIENT: My mom’s been helping me.

THERAPIST: She’s been helping you.

CLIENT: There’s been no other… That’s why it sucked, because the idea was that I’d have that unemployment…

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: … to take care of whatever I was… everyday kinda stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: And then whatever my mom helped me with. I’d go to Assyria a little more… you know. Now it’s just… I’m not really going there with…

THERAPIST: [unclear]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yup. And my mom’s had to help me a lot more than she would have. She already is struggling, so. [pause] Maybe that’s why I’m excited too, I just feel like, you know, one way or the other that’s all gonna change. You know.

THERAPIST: I think especially once you finish this [unclear].

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: That [unclear].

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know what I was even thinking about, just for self-satisfaction? Not right now, but after I finish those degrees I’m going to finish that fucking Amherst degree too. That was not a big fucking deal. And, you know, I did… I did one year. It’s a two year program, I did one year. I mean, so I might see if I can finish that. [00:20:00]

THERAPIST: That’s a creative writing…

CLIENT: Creative writing…

THERAPIST: … MFA?

CLIENT: Yeah, it’s an MFA. And it’s not… it’s low residency. You go there twice a year for like a week.

THERAPIST: Wow. So that’s really possible too.

CLIENT: Of course, yeah. Now, it’s very expensive, so I wouldn’t do it… I don’t think I’d do it unless there was a way to pay for it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Or they might even be like, “Are you sure? Like you already… you did what most of these students are trying to do, you’ve already done all those things.”

THERAPIST: You may not need it.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I…

THERAPIST: I mean it may not be worth the money.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, it’s clearly not, because… I mean, it’s just not.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Because the reason they even do that is to do what I’ve already… what I did, so there’s no… And if you already have an MA and a Ph.D. then…

THERAPIST: You don’t need it.

CLIENT: Right, there’s no reason to get it. It would just be… it would just feel good, you know. But that’s whatever, that’s not a big deal.

THERAPIST: But with completed degrees, and teaching experience at the university, I mean, you will take that whether you stay there, whether you come back here.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it’ll… the whole…

THERAPIST: It will open many doors.

CLIENT: Yes. Yeah, yeah. No, it’ll definitely change things. Any time there’s a creative writ… I still won’t be quite as qualified for like purely academic… Not that I won’t be quali… I’ll be qualified degree-wise.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: But, you know, those are much more like they’ve done a million conferences and… You know what I mean, like hardcore academic types.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. But then you’re learning.

CLIENT: But anything that’s related to creative writing, or anywhere around that kind of… I’ll be highly qualified. You know, so.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:22:00]

CLIENT: Yup. Or who knows, even like things that have to do with like ethnic American literature, you know, things like that.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm. [pause]

CLIENT: And so we’ll see. I mean, the e-mails I got from London, they seem… they’re putting 2015 as the finish date. Which means they seem to think that that’s like doable. So that’s pretty cool. Because over there, you know, it’s not like here, it’s not these like tenure Ph.D.…

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: You know, you can get through it a little bit easier.

THERAPIST: So 2015, like in the MA essentially?

CLIENT: That I don’t know. I don’t know. But that’s the date they’ve used in their e-mails. [pause] So yeah. So I think a big thing now is like I just… I think it’s important for me to take like one day at a time until… you know. It’s all very exciting, there’s a lot of good stuff, but it’s still overwhelming. You know, so…

THERAPIST: One day at a time. What are you worried about when you say that?

CLIENT: I don’t want to go the other extreme of like being too optimistic, or too… You know, like we’ve talked about, I’m just so aware now of where I am, where my moods are, that I’m really enjoying whatever this is right now, like just kinda… you know. Which I know what… I mean, you’re totally right there, like you can’t… once you open that door you can’t just go all the way back to where you were. But, you know, just I don’t want to get overexcited, I don’t want to feel over-invested. Like Assyria’s going to be a completely… You know what I mean? I just want to be like, “Yeah, I made it to Assyria, there are gonna be good things, bad things. It’s not gonna be some overnight transformation. The university might not be perfect, the classes might not be perfect, I might not like my fucking students. I don’t know, you know. I just want to… you know. That’s not what I’m expecting, realistically I know that things are looking pretty good. But I just… you know, I don’t want to…

THERAPIST: Well, realistically also some things are not going to go according to plan. Do you know what I mean? If you’re being realistic not ev…

CLIENT: Right, that’s the way life… That’s what I’m trying to say, right. That’s the way life goes, right, exactly, exactly. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you don’t really know which parts are going to be…

CLIENT: Yeah, right. [00:25:00]

THERAPIST: … right now what…

CLIENT: Which is exactly why there’s no point in thinking about it. Like you just…

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You handle it like the way you handle anything else, like you know. [pause]

THERAPIST: You’re watching out for the… they’re called the manic defense.

CLIENT: Yeah, like any extremes, or yeah. Which I know you’ve said I don’t really seem to have that, but I just…

THERAPIST: You don’t have formal bipolar disorder at all.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. No, no.

THERAPIST: But you can still have the defensive process involved in… In other words, the manic defense is a… it’s a state where it’s defending against severe anxiety about everything falling apart.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Right? Which [at some level?] has got to be there now too.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: The more you’re sort of aware. That’s… could be a piece of what could propel you back into thinking… like idealizing the whole thing.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: I just think you’re too aware of all that.

CLIENT: Yeah, I am. Yeah, it’s not… yeah. [00:26:00]

THERAPIST: I think you’re aware of your anxieties…

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: … enough so that it won’t just click over…

CLIENT: Yeah, because it’s funny, because every day I think about this, but then every day seems to go fine. Do you know what I mean? Like it’s like this weird, you know, like… I mean, this whole week I didn’t have two nickels to rub together. You know. Something in me was like, “You know what, whatever man. It’s just it is what it is right now. It’s not your fault, you’re not some lazy asshole.” You know, “Yeah it kinda sucks that your mom’s helping you, it makes you feel bad. But you know what, you’re… like that’s what families do, and you’ll do that for your kids. And you’re making a big time effort here hopefully for a good opportunity, and then you’re gonna help your mom or whatever.” Like, I mean, you know. Yeah, I think you’re right, there’s something that fundamentally feels very different now. It’s like even like a day like today where I do feel a little bit of that, “Well, I posted on this blog, I’m cracking ahead. And then my other blog, I’m writing, I’m…” You know what I mean? Like there’s… I was writing a few songs the other day that I really liked. There’s… you can start getting a little…

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: The degrees are gonna happen, you know. But I guess you’re right, yeah, it’s just… I keep guarding against something that doesn’t seem to arrive.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Or it arrives a little bit, and then you’re watching.

CLIENT: Yeah, I’m just aware. Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Which that’s the normal… that’s the more normal way people are, that they’re just a little more able to cope, you know, at…

THERAPIST: Or what you’re catching is that the… the initial really important steps, like the steps of writing this blog and that blog, and getting things moving with these two degrees, are amazing, and that’s all they are.

CLIENT: Exactly. Right, right.

THERAPIST: Like what needs to follow those…

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: … is the next blog.

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: And the next blog.

CLIENT: Exactly, yeah.

THERAPIST: And actually then calling up and getting your paperwork submitted, like, you know.

CLIENT: Exactly, exactly. [00:28:00]

THERAPIST: That that’s what is amazing about them…

CLIENT: Yup.

THERAPIST: … is that they’re setting a foundation for you to do it again tomorrow.

CLIENT: That’s right, that’s right.

THERAPIST: And more and more. So that that’s what has to happen.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Instead of the feeling that this will somehow like run on its own.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah. Something feels much more like… tactile…

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: … and like… you know? Like yeah, it’s not just like, “I got into Brown!”

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And then that becomes some just thing. Like some weird…

THERAPIST: Right. Like, “So what?”

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. It’s like those are just steps, just everyday steps that lots of people go through. You know, and you just… then you put your other foot in front of the other, and you know. So. I think that’s why now things are just clear, I’m like, “Yeah. Fucking history of Assyria.” Why did I… Why did I never utter that sentence?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I’ve never uttered even that sentence. Or maybe I’ve thought it and I was like, “Oh, that’s too boring. It’s not interesting, it’s not this…” Well, no, what’s interesting is just finishing the God damn degree.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Then write about whatever the fuck you want that’s complicated and whatever.

THERAPIST: Yeah, uh huh.

CLIENT: But, you know. And it is interesting. I mean, it’s part of American literary history. And that I’m part of.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know, that I kept thinking that like I’m in some bubble out somewhere. It’s like, no, that’s your… you’re part of American literature, then part of this subset of, you know.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it’s like it’s starting to occur to you the actual realistic next steps.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Instead of the big magical grandiose next step.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But actually no, you’re finding what’s the step that’s going to give you the next step that will get [overtalk].

CLIENT: Yeah, suddenly none of these things feel grandiose.

THERAPIST: They’re not.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, they don’t feel…

THERAPIST: They’re actually realistic. And they’re not nothing either.

CLIENT: Yeah, right.

THERAPIST: They are something.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: If you write that paper, that’s a pretty big deal. [00:30:00]

CLIENT: Right, right, right. Right. Even like music-wise, like it feels good to think of it as, yeah, I might do kinda well in Assyria or whatever, but it’ll be small, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Just like I say in that blog, like it’ll be just quiet. Like a tiny little country with a tiny little population, yeah, I think I’ll do okay. But that’s kinda the point, it’ll just be, yup, I just have a… I’m playing some fucking little club somewhere. And yup, you know what, I’m going to fly to play a club there. These’ll be just… you know, just little things, they’re not… I mean, yes, in the moment I’ll think of them as okay. I can’t not be that way as a performer and as an artist. But it’ll just be something you do. You know? And then you just do the next one, or whatever. [pause]

THERAPIST: Those are the actual steps that people take that do get to make it to that status anyway.

CLIENT: Yes. Right, right, right.

THERAPIST: But that’s what happens, you’re doing the next thing.

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: You’re doing the next thing, you’re doing the next thing. That is the realistic next step.

CLIENT: Right, right, right.

THERAPIST: And you don’t know where that leads you in any of these pursuits.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: But that that’s all you have that’s actually realistic.

CLIENT: Right, right. Well, also that it kind of… not that it doesn’t matter where it leads, but I enjoy doing them so much why would I… I mean, it doesn’t make sense all these years to hold myself back, and this and that. You know, you’re good at something. Like the best compliment I got today from a writer was about the one that you didn’t… about this on the Penguin site. It’s about one of my favorite… like he’s really my favorite poet. He’s like my… the one I’ve learned from the most, and if anyone knows his work really well can see my kinda connections. [00:32:00]

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: So what she said was she was like, “You know, it’s crazy.” She was like, “You have a way of writing that’s very touching but never ever cheesy or contrived somehow. And it’s like, you know, so… And I get the same response to my music. So why would I kinda care anymore what… like I’m obviously good at these things. It doesn’t matter how good, or good as who else.

THERAPIST: You are good enough.

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly, you’re good enough. Which I’ve always said to myself, that there’s got to be room for me in this world of poetry. But that’s different just… like you said, just writing a post and fucking… Like even now, thinking about like my next book, it doesn’t seem anymore like some kind of massive herculean… It just seems like just, you know, a month or two in a coffee shop and I’m going to have a book. I mean, it’s not rocket science. Luckily for me it’s not. And I’ve always said to a few people that if other poets knew—musicians too—if they knew how quickly I produce things that they everyone seems to like, and I did them in like 10 minutes or whatever, I’d get my ass kicked for not being more whatever. So it’s time to just savor that and just enjoy it and just… [pause]

THERAPIST: So when’s the next book of poems coming out? [00:34:00]

CLIENT: I told Jason, I said a firm… I told him that hopefully the next few months I’d send him a pretty…

THERAPIST: [unclear]

CLIENT: I’m sorry?

THERAPIST: First draft?

CLIENT: Yeah, I don’t like to call it that, because then I don’t want them to think it’s like, oh, is this good enough. Like a working pretty finalized manuscript but then I’m open to their edits or whatever. I think that’s realistic. I mean, I have more than enough pages, it’s just that I don’t like a lot of the… for me, I don’t… they’re not good enough for me yet. But that means I have plenty to work with. Plus I’m writing new stuff.

THERAPIST: And it sounds like [unclear] will publish it if you want them to.

CLIENT: I don’t see why they wouldn’t. Yeah, I don’t see why they wouldn’t. I mean, it’s definitely better than that first… you know, that first book to me is already kinda… it’s a rush of like second avalanche of stuff that just came out. And I’m proud of it. But this one feels very controlled, and like tight, and just… something.

THERAPIST: A different phase [overtalk].

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And back to like individual poems. That was… I don’t do that. And especially with all those long lines and… that’s not… it just was an experiment that happened to work out. But yeah. And this one has a bigger theme, it’s not just an Assyrian-American bullshit, like it’s got a much bigger kind of idea to it.

THERAPIST: I can’t wait to read it. [00:36:00]

CLIENT: Me too. [pause] You know one thing I was thinking too is maybe part of me that I don’t want to go there, but maybe part of me is like bracing itself for the kind of emotional or spiritual/emotion/psychological things that happen from everyone I’ve heard who’s gone to Assyria. And the only reason I say that is because if it’s happening to them, I’m no better than them.

THERAPIST: It’s going to happen to you.

CLIENT: It’s gonna happen to me.

THERAPIST: Tenfold.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I’m an artist, my family actually everything I’ve heard nonstop is about those streets and the… you know. Even thinking about it makes me feel very strange. So I think that’s something that I’m… And there’s nothing you can do to prepare for that, the actual reality of it. Luckily again I think this writing, creativity, it just helps you to…

THERAPIST: What an outlet it will be.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: From the moment you arrive you’ll just…

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. And this way I feel like I’m already writing now, so that way I’m already starting to process. Because yeah, it’s big. It’s as if I’m doing what my grandfather did years ago, and it’s just so strange. Very exciting, beautiful, but just…

THERAPIST: Overwhelming.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Because when you have just everyday Assyria-Americans, you know, they’re office workers, they’re not artists, they’re not… for them… they’re not the types to maybe talk about sensitive stuff or deep shit or whatever. For each one of them to be like, “Dude, you gotta brace yourself, because you get there and something just happens.” Like you see that fucking mountain and just there’s something. They’re like this thing that all of our families have mythologized is just, there it is. And it’s like a very odd… They’re like, “Yeah, you go through a period of euphoria, then you kinda crash, then you can feel pretty lonely there.” There are all these people that have these very…

THERAPIST: Similar story about it. [38:30]

CLIENT: They all have similar stories, yeah. Then they can’t wait to get the fuck out of there. But then when they leave the start immediately wanting to go back. And their second time around for whatever reason is a lot better, this and that. So I think I’m jumping those hurdles because I’m learning from all these people. I’m not going there with any… there’s no romanticizing, I’m not looking for a wife, I’m not… or I’m not looking to change the country or… Those are all secondary things, and it’s trying to at least stay as grounded as possible. And the fact that it’s just a country. It has a lot of meaning for me, but it’s kinda like the Ph.D. or… Yes, it just is. You know what I mean? It just is what it is, it’s not anything more than that.

THERAPIST: Do you know what you’re nervous for then? Like what’s the worry about this that overwhelm your feelings?

CLIENT: I don’t know, just because I’ve been so good. Like things are so calm, and I’ve been just getting through each day, like I’m proud of how I’ve been getting through stuff, that I just…

THERAPIST: So that you’ll get depressed when you get there? Like what…

CLIENT: That I’ll get emotional.

THERAPIST: I’m sure you will.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What’s so bad about that?

CLIENT: I don’t know. Just that I’ll get emotional. And yeah, maybe depressed or something. Not depressed, but… I don’t know, I have no idea. [00:40:00]

THERAPIST: I don’t know how it can’t bring up an enormous amount of all different feelings when you arrive [overtalk].

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, yeah. Like maybe I’ll have to do all the mourning that my family hasn’t done in a weird way for… You know what I mean? You know, like…

THERAPIST: So then maybe the feeling of losses will be almost unbearable in a way?

CLIENT: I mean, it won’t be unbearable. It’s just… I’m not sure. Like I just want to be able to just keep this level of functioning, and just be kinda like… just take it in stride as much as I can. The fact that I’m even thinking all this means I will. But I think…

THERAPIST: And when was the last time you had had this level of functioning? Do you know what I mean? It’s been a long time.

CLIENT: I guess so, yeah.

THERAPIST: You guess so, or no?

CLIENT: No, you’re right, you’re right. I just like to not get too ahead of myself. But yeah, you’re right. Yeah, it’s been…

THERAPIST: Maybe I’m not. I mean, I don’t know what you…

CLIENT: No, you are.

THERAPIST: Like are you worried about retreating to your computer or something? Like what would that look like…

CLIENT: I honestly don’t know because I’m not there yet, and I’ve never done anything like this. So I don’t know. I’m assuming everything will be fine because of all these other people who are doing it and it’s fine. And they’re not just… it’s not like I’m better than these people. Other American-Assyrian artists go, other… you know. Yeah, I just don’t know. I’m just… yeah. Maybe it’s just all you’re saying is that… it’s what you’re saying, that it is healthy, I’m going to go and I’m going to feel vulnerable.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, I might go to like an old monastery and I just gotta cry, I can’t just be like, “Oh, look how beautiful that is.” You know, that’s [a saint/insane?]. Those are my peeps, those are my…

THERAPIST: I don’t think… it would be insane to go and just say, “Oh, look how beautiful that is.” I mean, that’s the insane reaction.

CLIENT: Exactly, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: But not the sobbing.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I mean, not that I think I would have sobbed, but you know what I mean. Shed a tear or whatever.

THERAPIST: If you did, if you did.

CLIENT: Yeah, or even if you did. A lot of people.

THERAPIST: I mean, what’s so wrong about that?

CLIENT: No, nothing, nothing. Yeah, no. I mean, that’s what a lot of people… that’s what they say, yeah. [00:43:00]

THERAPIST: I’m sure you wouldn’t be the first or last.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: It’s like visiting Auschwitz.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: People break down.

CLIENT: Right, right. Yeah, people who aren’t Jewish or whatever break down, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yes. Where it’s not even their history.

CLIENT: Right, right. That’s just the nature of… I mean, you can go to ancient Rome and feel overwhelmed by… I mean, just any kind of things that are that old that are still around, they’re pretty… Yeah. [pause]

THERAPIST: Well, Wednesday.

CLIENT: Wednesday? Thanks, Claire.

THERAPIST: You’re welcome.

CLIENT: I’ll look out for your e-mail.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Thank you so much. Have a great weekend.

THERAPIST: I’ll send you [unclear], I’ll send you a copy if you want to just look it over and see if there’s anything you want me to change about it. I don’t know if you want to show it someone and make sure it seems like it… whatever. You just tell me if it…

CLIENT: Oh, that’s [unclear]. Maybe I’ll even send it to Chuck and say, “Can you look this over first and let me know I could let my doctor.” Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And then if you need it… I assume you’ll actually need it signed then [unclear].

CLIENT: I asked him that. So I’ll find out.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I sent him an e-mail.

THERAPIST: So I can always print copies.

CLIENT: Okay. Thank you very much Claire.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Have a good weekend.

END TRANSCRIPT