TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: I will let you know whether that's available in any case.

CLIENT: Okay, cool, thank you.

THERAPIST: Yeah, sure.

CLIENT: So when last we were talking —

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: One of the things was about how I feel like people don't or won't make accommodations for me for like — (pause) Yeah, like — I'm also thinking disability accommodations, but I don't mean that. I mean like social accommodations. (pause)

[00:00:53]

[And one of the things that has sort of] manifested in my life is that a lot of ways in which my identity is inconvenient for other people or rather, I guess, me asserting it. So it makes like — if I bring up, you know, racism that I've experienced, there's a of ton of like "But no, that could never happen here." And so, you know, that happens like kind of on a macro level.

[00:01:51]

But then when it comes to a lot of my social circles, I feel like for a lot of people I know, it becomes like somehow — it becomes my social faux pas for being offended by someone else's racism or homophobia or whatever.

THERAPIST: Sorry, I'm confused when you say it becomes your faux pas for being offended. You mean like if you're offended, then that's kind of a social misstep of yours?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Oh, I see [how it all fits together]. So you're saying like something offensive happens, you're offended, and then other people who are not in the group that relates to your being offended are adamant about — well, defensive anyway — about there not being racism or homophobia or whatever it is, and that kind of puts it back on you for being offended.

[00:03:09]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That makes sense. I just want to —

CLIENT: Yeah, like one of the examples I was thinking of —

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: — in part because it involves someone who's also like known to be really crappy at socializing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: This girl Jane who, you know, I've known off and on. Like I'm not a friend of hers, but I know who she is.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I've been at her house, she has a mutual friend, da da da. So one of her friends e-mailed me.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: It's our mutual friend. She's like "Ju, [my friend] Jane is thinking of doing this costume for a convention," and I was like "Yeah, okay." She was like "So, this part sounded dodgy, and I wanted to run it by you and see what you thought."

[00:03:56]

So the character has various manifestations, and one of them is sort of a zombie character that has been patched together from various body parts. So part of the thing is some of her body parts are black, like black people body parts.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So her roommate wanted to, you know, color patches of her skin brown.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Possibly with a Sharpie, possibly not.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I was like "No, that's really offensive. She should not do that." So basically I think, [more to the point], I was like "Don't. No. Stop. Abort. Abort. She should not do this."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Especially since this character that she likes has like 20 other outfits, looks or whatever.

[00:04:56]

THERAPIST: Right, right.

CLIENT: I'm like "You know, if she wants to do like stitches, fine. But let's not go blackface here." And if I remember correctly, the character also has some yellowish skin — it's just like, it's supposed to be symbolic about ending racism, but it's really just sort of offensive and weird.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So, that happened, okay. And then like two days later, this girl Jane goes off on this sort of tirade online about how it is — she didn't understand why someone would say it's offensive to color her skin a different color.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And who would possibly think that, that's weird. And also she's never heard of blackface, therefore it's not offensive.

[00:05:55]

Also her dad did a really long sociological study where he knew a lot of black people [in the inner city] in the 70s. Additionally, she's Jewish and has very very curly hair, and people sometimes ask her if she's part black, and she has to use like black women's hair care products. Also, she's a scientist and race doesn't exist as a science. Additionally —

THERAPIST: Wait, race doesn't exist as a science? Okay, whatever.

CLIENT: There's a lot of (inaudible at 00:06:34) happening.

THERAPIST: Yes, I understand that. It doesn't make sense, but I sort of knew what you were referring to. Whatever.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, I mean, I get that all the time where it's like yes, I understand that like there isn't like a black person gene.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And like you can make tabulations -

THERAPIST: No, I know about that stuff.

[00:06:55]

CLIENT: Blah, blah, blah. And I was like (inaudible at 00:06:56). So I was like "Ummm, it's offensive because you're wearing blackface and this is what blackface is, and you can do whatever you want — " because I was thinking they're like "How dare you make me not do this." I'm like "You can do it. I'm just telling you you're wearing blackface, so go forward."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And she flipped out and I believe — I don't remember — I believe did go forward with the costume idea, with the blackface on. So, that happened.

THERAPIST: That's horrible.

CLIENT: Yeah. So then like, I don't know, a couple of months later, a friend of mine was having a little cocktail party and she was like "Oh, so here's the thing. Jane, you know, I know she can be kind of difficult.

[00:08:01]

And I know there's that thing with the blackface, but she's been a friend of mine and I really love her and da da da da, so I don't want this to be awkward her coming over." Basically she was like telling me that she didn't want me to cause a scene.

THERAPIST: With Jane.

CLIENT: Jane.

THERAPIST: Right, after telling you that she did a bunch of racist stuff.

CLIENT: "But she's just awkward and blah blah blah." She's known her for a long time and she's like "I know she's really frustrating." I'm like "It's not frustrating. It's racist, but okay."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And the other thing that had happened is Jane ripped into me. Because one of Jane's things is that "You're not even part of the science fiction community." I was like "Uh, Jane, that [con] you're going to is the same one that I've been going to for a decade."

[00:08:58]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: "Also, I know you know because — " and then I mentioned — I said something like "You know, we've met. You know me." She's like "How dare you be so arrogant as to think that." I'm like "I've been in your house. I don't know. That's why I thought you might know who I am."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like a year ago. So she self-diagnosed herself with face blindness.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: She doesn't have face blindness, but she likes self-diagnosing herself. So, I was just like I can politely ignore someone at like a 12-person party, sure. And at one point, she came up to me and said "Hi. I don't know you. My name is Jane." And like the whole room just kind of like went silent, like "Uhh."

[00:09:58]

I just said, you know, "My name is Ju" and she kind of tried to — and I was just like "Yes, I [live near you]" and like I was very vague and deliberately not say anything that would make her draw any connections.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Because I didn't feel like it.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like when I didn't, I could see that the host was very visibly relieved as were some of the other people.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I'm kind of like "Did you talk to her beforehand?" And she also had insulted someone else who showed up at the party again did not remember that she had lambasted him.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Or something. And so, things like that just are frequent. (pause)

[00:10:54]

Another thing I was thinking of recently was — it's kind of extra-weird because it was actually a hypothetical argument. Some friends of mine who were getting married decided that they wanted to look at like charter schools or good schools in various neighborhoods in the area. And they were worried because their hypothetical child who only just happened now — this was like five years ago — so, you know, they don't have a big — they're not even close.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So they were worried about where their hypothetical kid was going to go to school, and one of the schools they were going to look at they were really concerned about because it was — the school I think was like 40 percent minorities.

THERAPIST: Forty?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Minority?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

[00:11:53]

CLIENT: And they were like "We're just kind of concerned about, you know, the violence and will our child get bullied." And some people were like "Oh yeah, you definitely need to check into that" and I'm like "But wait. Are you worried about the violence level because there's non-white kids? Like where are we going here?"

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: "Or had you heard there was a violence issue and then — " And she was like "No, I'm concerned about the violence level because there are so many non-white people there." I was like "Oh, good, okay." And so various people were like "Yes, when I was in high school, some black girls beat me and it was horrible."

THERAPIST: Oh God.

CLIENT: And then there's sort of the secondary like "Well, but, you know — "

THERAPIST: That's horrible.

CLIENT: " — if you look at statistics, black people — " and I'm like "Well, I think poor schools often have high crime rates. This is a charter school." I'm like "Also, you could just ask.

[00:12:59]

You can ask the school about bullying." And so then it progressed that her concern was anti-Semitic bullying. (pause) But she really only seemed to be concerned about that — I was like "You know, stuff like that you need to be concerned about. We hear you."

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: But she seemed to feel that was more likely to happen if there were more non-white people. So she's kind of going along and I'm just thinking, I don't — where are we going with this? And one of the people also who was on this side was actually Josie's former therapist, which was hilarious in many ways.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So —

THERAPIST: So Josie's former therapist was on the other side from you on this discussion?

CLIENT: Yes, yes.

THERAPIST: Okay.

[00:13:56]

CLIENT: Some black girls had teased her in high school. And so after a little bit, I just sort of said "Hey, look, let's just make it simple. You're telling me there's this hypothetical — there's a school and let's say that all our kids are in this school. If there are a lot of kids who look like my kids probably look like, you don't want your kid to go to that school." And she said "Yes." I was like "Okay, great, done." And she didn't — like I actually thought she was going to back off from that.

THERAPIST: I —

CLIENT: (laughter)

THERAPIST: — just can't believe -

CLIENT: (laughter) I was like "You know — "

THERAPIST: Like you're having this conversation. (chuckles)

[00:14:52]

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm like "Let's get really, you know — " and this girl was like "You know — " I'm like "You've known me for several years. I've been to your house, et cetera, but you're telling me that the kids that I have —

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: — will beat up the — the kid I don't have will beat up the kid that you don't have."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like just will, even though I'm pretty sure my hypothetical — it was just so insane and so —

THERAPIST: And it's just horribly ironic.

CLIENT: Yes. Oh, yes. There's a lot of things. And there were just like a lot of people chiming in to be like "No, it's not about racism, it's about 50 other things." I'm like "No, really, it's about racism."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: "Like that's just where we are."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I was like "I know you and your spouse. We never [really talk much] anyway."

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)

[00:16:03]

CLIENT: And you know, like I didn't make an announcement because why would I?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like who cares? And she like started a new business and some people were like "Oh, did you read this thing that they wrote?" and I'm like "I'm not really interested in supporting her business or her."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And it was pretty clear that most people knew why. They were like "Well, you know, it's just that she's been a really good friend, blah blah blah" and I'm like "I don't care."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: "Like I don't care if she was a really good friend to you because she really hasn't been to me, and you need to reconcile she isn't a good friend and says and does racist things."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: "That's something that you need to do for yourself."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

[00:16:57]

CLIENT: "And it's not my fault. Like I didn't make her say any of that."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: "I didn't make her believe any of that." But definitely in terms of like, especially for like (inaudible at 00:17:16) people would often look at me to see how I would like —

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And —

THERAPIST: Yeah, because it's on you.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I guess the history of screwing up like — I really — (pause) You know, like I was sort of feeling like "If you think I am like a terrifying angry black woman, I really don't know what to tell you because I'm really not.

[00:17:57]

This is the most gentlest of coached, you know — I'm not saying you're racist. I'm saying this thing that you did looks just like racism. You know, carry on." And their reaction is like I'm an angry black woman, which I'm not.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:18:26)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So that was how you responded to being like terribly insulted among people you, I imagine, had previously felt were your friends.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, (inaudible at 00:18:43) but like you know, it's a friendly gathering.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: People make nice. I assume, you know, she wasn't really tearing other people down or telling them she would want her hypothetical kid not to go to school with their hypothetical future kid.

[00:19:08]

CLIENT: Yeah. It's just — (pause) I mean, I don't feel great about sort of being like the reasonable non-scary black person, but —

THERAPIST: You can't fucking win this one.

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm just like, you know, there's really nothing to —

THERAPIST: Sorry —

CLIENT: No, it is. I was just like — it's like well — and the other thing is that a lot of times people will say "Oh, you know, all the geeks in town and all the sci-fi nerds.

[00:20:05]

Like we're all just one big community, and when I went to my first sci-fi convention, I knew I was home. Don't you just feel like you go to a (inaudible at 00:20:15) event and like yeah, everyone is just -" I'm like "No, no, don't use the word ‘tribe,' it's offensive. Also, no." And that also hurts a lot of people's feelings, like my disagreeing with it and how they had bad experiences.

THERAPIST: Right. Yeah, I guess like what you're saying, people generally don't want to hear about it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And also generally make it your issue.

CLIENT: Yeah, and it's always like —

THERAPIST: Make it out to be your issue.

CLIENT: It's my issue. It's a single, unusual incident in that —

[00:21:03]

THERAPIST: Like it never actually happens.

CLIENT: It never happened. It was just like they briefly lost their mind and it's okay now, like they were out of their body for three weeks, typing.

Two friends of mine, Jersey who has a disability and my friend Ashley who is transgender, they cracked a joke that the three of us should be a band called something like "The Reasonable Non-Threatening Ones." I'm like "Yeah, that's true." That's definitely how — I mean, people pretty much said that to me and to Ashley and to Jersey. (pause)

[00:22:14]

It's, you know — (pause) I don't know. It gets very exhausting and difficult to just — I don't know. (pause) I mean, part of what I hate is that I'm usually pretty aware of what other thing that people would rather really never discuss again.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Or something will happen and I'm just "I don't really feel like talking about this publicly in a large group or to my Facebook wall or whatever because I know what the reaction is going to be, and it's going to be a lot of "That's so horrible. I never thought that would ever happen" and I just don't feel like it.

THERAPIST: Sure. (pause) I guess it makes me think of the analogy of somebody growing up in a household where the other family members make it really clear that they don't want to hear whatever sort of important thing is going on for the kid. You know, like abuse is happening or that there's something else really painful going on, they're depressed, or just something bad. And everybody else gives very clear signals that they don't want to hear it. They're going to blame the kid for it. I don't mean — you're not a kid.

CLIENT: Yeah.

[00:24:10]

THERAPIST: But you know, that kind of situation where, you know, you're just kind of — there's really nothing you can do, and either way it really hurts to not be able to say anything [or to say it and get instead of blaming, get sort of dismissive responses].

CLIENT: Yeah. And the other thing which I find, I know I always have — so 90 percent of the time I feel like I could just have this conversation in my head.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Where I'm like, I don't know, I just don't feel like it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

[00:25:03]

CLIENT: Like I'm just not going to — but then sometimes I think maybe this time it's going to be cool. I don't know. Or maybe if it just happened and I'm super upset.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And you know, occasionally it goes well, but usually it's still like that doesn't happen.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And when I've mentioned, occasionally like I could just have that conversation in my head and I don't really feel like it now, the person gets super offended. And I'm like "I don't know what to tell you, but I really could give you a play-by-play of what you're going to say and I don't want to, and I don't want to have this conversation."

Like I don't — I remember what set off several people is like "I don't feel like managing your anxiety and concerns about your own ways in which you are implicating racism while also discussing racism."

[00:26:16]

And then accuse someone flipping out about their own — it's just very boring. Not boring, more like grinding down because it just keeps on happening.

THERAPIST: I imagine it's wearing and also really incredibly painful.

CLIENT: Yeah, and it's also one of those things where I'm just like, at a certain point I feel like I really don't understand why you thought that this was a good idea.

THERAPIST: Referring — "you" being yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah, well like I've had people say to me, talk about like how like oh my God, they're so gross and fat and can't wear whatever and they have to wear Spanx or they're on a diet.

[00:27:10]

And I'm like "Why did you think that I'm the person to tell that to? Have I not been spending a lot of time talking about positivity and also, I'm fatter than you, so really -"

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't know. It makes me feel very much like they're not paying attention to anything about me.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think you're pretty consistently [getting the message that] you don't matter. What you feel or think or how you react doesn't matter. You know, people aren't really seeing you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, it's perfectly fine to disregard.

CLIENT: But I've also very much like — "but like I have black — " I know, I'm very aware of people who are like "But I have black friends, so I can't be racist."

[00:28:09]

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: Because I'm their only black friend. Or maybe they know one other person. Maybe. Or "No, you can't say that this event exclusionary. Karen goes to it." I'm like — (pause) Which also makes me crazy because I think I'm being dragged in as somehow saying "Oh yeah, this is great" but I'm like "No, that's not what I think at all."

THERAPIST: Right. Your presence doesn't sanction —

CLIENT: Yes. This is not an endorsement.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, which again, I think is sort of an abuse of you, irrespective of what is actually going on with you.

[00:29:16]

CLIENT: Yeah, it's very much like the Photoshopping someone in for diversity.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) Yeah, so I guess my impression is that often to do with race, but certainly to do with other things as well, this is a huge part of your life.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean — Yeah, it's just like, you know, it's part of me and like — (pause) It definitely — (pause)

[00:30:12]

I mean, it's one of those things where one thing that happens is that like in college, I think, while a lot of other people, similar to me, in college develop a more racial identity or like go another way and are like "No, I'm totally an assimilationist" and then later on are like "Oh God, that was horrible."

But like I spent my time in college dealing much more with sexual identity and politics and gender and BDSM and a lot of other things. (pause) So part of what I think goes on for me sometimes is that groups I've been a part of for over a decade or for a long time, I've either ignored or kind of like dismissed.

[00:31:13]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And now that I'm bringing them up, everyone is like "But we thought you were the nice reasonable one who would never say anything." And also just finding people or places or groups that "I thought we were friends, but I guess we're not. Or our friendship doesn't — you are much more willing and interested in supporting like institutional racism than me." And like that's never — it's not really something you can say to someone and have it go well, for a variety of reasons.

[00:32:12]

THERAPIST: I would imagine people generally — you describe people who would generally either [cop to it] in a horrible way, like what happened in the party you were talking about, or deny it and throw it back at you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like a lot of people I know are very very invested in their identity as someone who is not racist, as someone who is not sexist, as someone who is not a variety of other things. So the worst thing you could ever do to them is point out like you actually have said or done something that's really sexist or racist. (pause)

[00:33:04]

And so like it's that huge knee-jerk defensive, you know — what's worse than racism is you saying I was racist. (pause) But then there's also like well, I've spent a lot of time and energy with people, with groups, with organizations that they don't — I'm sort of realizing aren't actually that welcoming. (pause) They like people like me, as an individual, because I'm non-threatening.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But if someone new came in who they didn't know, they would flip their shit. (pause)

[00:34:10]

Like someone who, you know, wasn't prevented as having whatever appropriate credentials they're supposed to have.

THERAPIST: Another way to kind of say something similar is that you're not going to find that many non-racist organizations that you want to be part of and sort of pursue things that you're interested in.

CLIENT: Sort of. It's more like a lot of the organizations that I've been involved with, I'm realizing and noticing it's not just that they're racist or there's the issue of racism in their organization.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Or sexism. All of which are true. But most of them don't care.

THERAPIST: I see.

[00:35:10]

CLIENT: And more the point, they don't care, they don't want it brought up. If you bring it up, you're a horrible person and are trying to destroy them and are making things up. (pause) Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I'm just like well, okay, so — it's just very — it's just incredibly demoralizing to be like "I spent a lot of time not [beating you guys] on X, Y, Z and you still don't care."

THERAPIST: We need to stop for now.

CLIENT: Okay. I'll see you on Thursday.

END TRANSCRIPT