TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: (Sigh) (Stretch) (Growl) Panic time. By the way, we’ve never talked about it again, but did you send those letters to (inaudible at 00:00:11)?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Okay, so I can follow up with them. Alright, thank you. Oh, and the second question is, “Did you fill my slot tomorrow?”

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Okay. Okay. (overtalk)

THERAPIST: Are you going to be around after all?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. But that’s okay. That’s okay.

THERAPIST: That might be a possibility, because I think I’m going to end up having another cancellation…

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: …later in the day, either (inaudible at 00:00:43) I might be able (inaudible)…

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: (inaudible) afternoon? (ph)

CLIENT: I’m not around later in the afternoon, but I’m around…

THERAPIST: Earlier.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. I’ll…

CLIENT: Okay. I’m sorry. I don’t…

THERAPIST: No, that’s okay.

CLIENT: I’m sorry to mess things up.

THERAPIST: [I want to have a time] (ph) (overtalk) [00:00:59]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. It’s just… (pause)

THERAPIST: What was…?

CLIENT: There’s just a lot of, you know…I don’t know, man, I’m fuckin’ leaving. You know what I mean. Like for whatever amount of time. There’s like friends who I want to spend time with who I’ve… they’re free this time…that time like…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Mmm.

CLIENT: Um (pause) Yeah. (rapid tapping on something)

THERAPIST: I mean, what I was also wondering was with predicting, in a way imagining that (inaudible at 00:01:40) clear could feel complicated, too.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, like…like you know you said about your band. “I don’t want to have the last practice…”

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like…I…

CLIENT: Yeah, that’s (overtalk)

THERAPIST: I would want to play out these two weeks. (laughing)

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, in some ways I think it’s like either subconscious or whatever, just like, yeah, I just don’t want it to be a thing. You know what I mean? Like I just want it to… (pause)

THERAPIST: Because?

CLIENT: It’s just painful, you know. It could hurt. It makes me sad. You know like with my mom, like I’m starting to feel sad that I’m not going to be around. You know, she’s older and whatever. But I also can’t dwell on it because it’s…that’s not helping me.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: So, it’s just sad, you know? It’s a bummer.

THERAPIST: Yeah. What’s wrong... (Let me turn the heat off.) What’s wrong with feeling sad? I know that seems obvious (overtalk)

CLIENT: Another thing, but like for example, today I feel panicky and so, I just…

THERAPIST: Mmmm [00:02:41]

CLIENT: I don’t want to…

THERAPIST: Mmmm

CLIENT: …you know? But it just goes back to what I’ve been saying. I just…I’m very…I’ve been hyper-vigilant about just trying to stay as even-keeled…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: …as I can, you know? Not that I’m not going to feel things…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: …but, I just want to… It’s just too overwhelming, you know? Like (inaudible at 00:03:01) so much already on my mind and like I’m just…tired, you know, with that stuff.

THERAPIST: Mmmm. Mmmm. (pause) Some way maybe feeling sad is your way it gets connected up with (inaudible) panicky?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I wonder how that is?

CLIENT: I mean, I don’t know. I’m assuming…I mean that’s just been the…in the past, then why did I first have panic attacks and anxiety, when it was two months after my dad…err a month after my dad died. So it’s, you know, like it’s just…it’s sadness on some level…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: …is connected to feeling like panicky and like things are all fucked up.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: At least let… It’s not a good place, you know.

THERAPIST: Well, it didn’t then? I don’t know if it would now? Because I don’t think what actually was happening, I don’t believe it was just being in sadness around loss. It wasn’t mourning. It was (inaudible at 00:04:11).

CLIENT: No, I don’t get it. No, it wasn’t mourning. It was just trauma and whatever fucked up things and…

THERAPIST: In other words, the panic state is almost the opposite. It’s kind of like a refusal to mourn.

CLIENT: Umm hmm.

THERAPIST: It’s being panicked that something… I mean, what was the essence of panic…that something back was going to happen? Right? You might die yourself? Have a heart attack? That’s its own form of not mourning that the loss already happened. (truck sound in background) And so… (loud traffic noise in background) …sad right now. Actually just feel the losses and be in them and have them and grieve them…

CLIENT: Umm hmm.

THERAPIST: …that the less panic you’ll feel. [00:04:55]

CLIENT: Umm hmm. (pause) Yeah, probably on some level. (long pause) Except that this time, I mean my panicky… I don’t know, though. This time I feel like the panic is different. I mean, I’m mostly just panicked about literally like literally kind of practical things…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: …that are just weighing me down and annoying me and bumming me out. Do you…

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: …know what I mean? So it’s almost like I don’t want to complicate those practical “annoyant” like…I’m already kind of stressed…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: …you know? About just like fuckin’ how am I going to have enough money, and all this bullshit. The apartment’s not rented yet, and you know?

THERAPIST: Mmmm. Umm hmm. [00:05:45]

CLIENT: So I just, on top of that I just feel like it’s too much, you know?

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: But, I mean the thing is, I am… It sounds like I’m feeling it. I am feeling…obviously I feel sad. You know?

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: I just…I mean… I think something in me is just not…it’s choosing not to…I don’t know how else…what else to do. I mean, yeah, I spend time alone. I think about it. I’m sad. You know? I mean I don’t know what else I would do about it. (long pause) I’m beat up, plus I’m nervous. Plus this like…I’m being very careful…this fuckin’ girl in Assyria – that one that I was…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm. Umm hmm.

CLIENT: That’s making me nervous, like I’m starting not to like the “it.”

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: You know, and now I’m… So that’s kind of triggering things in me.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Umm hmm. [00:06:44]

CLIENT: Like I’m worried that I already got some kind of wei…attachment, and… You know what I mean? Like somehow I’m like panicky that I’m going to go there…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: …and whatever. I’m not going to like her or she’s going to be as weird as I think she probably is.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: And…you know…I’m just…I’m just… I don’t know. (two knocks)

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: (pause) I don’t know, man. I don’t know why I attract these people, or why I’m attracted to them. I still… I don’t understand.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: I have like just no…I don’t want to call it luck, but I just… I don’t know what it is? I do not know what it is. I’m just bored by regular people, I guess.

THERAPIST: Mmmm. [00:07:32]

CLIENT: They just bore me.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: And the people who aren’t boring…they’re just not…you know… I’m like a rare case of someone who’s not boring but not out to hurt…you know, but who’s thoughtful. ..you know?

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: But, you know… This girl fuckin’ texted me yesterday. She’s doing this film thing. She gets…she was drunk. She was walking home. She’s like, “It’s dark.” Well, okay. Fine. She gets home. Suddenly I get a text that says, “Fuck life and fuck everyone.” And then (inaudible at 00:08:10) her back since then. This was like yesterday at like… I mean, you know? Their time is diff… Since like yesterday at 8 p.m. or something.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: So it’s like, “Dude (ph) you can’t do that!” You know like I still haven’t heard back. I’m like…that, that’s (stutters)…

THERAPIST: You responded?

CLIENT: Yeah, of course! I was like, “Are you okay?” Like I was like, “You need to call me if like…what’s going on?” You know?

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: I think that triggered it because that hasn’t happened in a long… That’s like a Samantha move.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? And that hasn’t happened in…since Samantha. You know?

THERAPIST: The move being not so much this…she might’ve been venting, but the fact that the not (ph) (overtalk)

CLIENT: You’ve gotta keep in touch. You can’t say shit like that and then just disappear.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? It’s just it’s really…

THERAPIST: Or not say sorry (overtalk)

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: …I was just having a really bad moment or something.

CLIENT: It’s thoughtless, you know…

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s like…you have plenty of time… Over there now it’s fucking…it’s evening now.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That’s a lot (inaudible at 00:09:04) Come on? That’s not cool. That’s really not cool. So like that…I think that’s setting off some kind of panicky thing in me…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? It’s like I…that hadn’t happened in years! Why would I… What the fuck!

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: (pause) So yeah, today I just feel…I saw bad dreams last…or panicky dreams.

THERAPIST: Mmmm. What? Do you remember?

CLIENT: Uhhh, I do remember, but now (pause)… Something about I had to give a classical piano recital.

THERAPIST: Mmm.

CLIENT: And then something about teachers or something…I was like… I was upset at teachers…and I kind of scolded them.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm. [00:09:54]

CLIENT: “This isn’t the way you do things, whatever, whatever…” I don’t know. Just a couple of things that were just weird.

THERAPIST: Mmmm. (pause) Mmmm. (pause) You scolded them?

CLIENT: I don’t remember now. It was just…it’s very vague. But yeah, something. I didn’t like the way they were doing something (inaudible at 00:10:14)

THERAPIST: Mmmm. (pause)

CLIENT: I think what it is…is I just feel really alone… Like now that I’m about to go (deep breath/exhale)…you know.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: (pause) I don’t know. I feel alone, plus I…you know, I have braced myself. I expect nothing when I get there.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: So I just…you know. (pause) I know my good friend is there…whatever…but… (pause) I don’t know. (pause)

THERAPIST: It’s interesting, here with me and feeling as you’re feeling increasingly alone, the impulse is to retreat to being even more alone here. [00:11:15]

CLIENT: Um, well I’m like that in general.

THERAPIST: Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: (inaudible) what better time to actually have contact?

CLIENT: Yeah. Ah, but I’m…I’m, yeah. I’m like that. It’s not the best trait in the world, but (inaudible at 00:11:29) That chick, Selena, remember I was saying, who cried…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: …when we had a drink. I haven’t seen her since. I’ve been kind of blowing her off…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: I just don’t know what to do. See her and do what? Watch her cry? I can’t…you know, I just can’t. I don’t feel like crying. It’s not… I’d be happy to cry. It’s just not… Cry about what, a girl I went on some dates with like…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: That’s kind of a different kind of… I’m just like… And then this kind of shit like you know…I don’t know. Like I just… Or something where…yeah, of course it’s amazing, but I’m leaving. You know?

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: So it’s like…that ends up making me feel like, alright, I’ve just gotta…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: Until things somehow stabilize (chuckling)

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: I don’t know who to give attention or time to…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: And where to invest my…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm. Umm hmm.

CLIENT: So I just almost feel like I’ve just gotta hunker down…I just gotta get there.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: You know? I’m nervous. I’m stressed. I’m… There’s practical logistical things I’m nervous about.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: Um (pause)

THERAPIST: You know (overtalk) [00:12:30]

CLIENT: Ah, the other dream was my family.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: My uncle, who I’m not talking to and stuff.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm. What about?

CLIENT: We were at a family get together and I was really depressed.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: I was just kind of sitting there like really depressed. And I didn’t say him… He said hi to me.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: So it wasn’t…it wasn’t bad, actually. I was the one…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: …among the… I was just sitting there and I was just really like out of it.

THERAPIST: Mmm.

CLIENT: And at first my uncle didn’t say hi to me. I didn’t say hi to him. But then like he walked around and then when he was walking back he says, “(inaudible at 00:13:06)…that you already have?” Very nice.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: It was like normal. You know?

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: And I was kind of surprised. Not like I hugged him and stuff. I was like hey, uncle…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: …you know. It was fine, but yeah. It was something…I just felt very done, or something. Or just out of it.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: (pause) I don’t know. (very long pause) I mean I know like as I’m thinking about it, I know that this won’t be like the Samantha thing. [00:13:57]

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? But I just…I kind of hate that… No, I don’t hate. I’m just sad that it’s like, man, I just… Like I’m so ready for something to just be normal and have like a real relation…like… You know…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: Like I’ve said before, right like I haven’t really had…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: You know? Like I feel ready, you know.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: So it’s just…it’s just so sad when like you get a little take…like, “Oh, this person…I’m connecting.”

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: And then there’s always something…there’s… And there always will be something…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: …of course. No one’s perfect.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: But it’s like, “Wow, man! Just be kind of nor…” I mean, you don’t have to be normal. I’m not normal. But just…you’ve gotta be more thoughtful. You’ve gotta be a little bit more…something. I don’t know. Self-aware. I don’t know what the fuck. [00:14:44]

THERAPIST: Hmmm.

CLIENT: I don’t know. Just…it makes me sad. Like I just feel sad that every… We all have issues. Everybody has issues and most people just don’t work on their issues.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: So it’s like, “Well, I’m not gonna… Don’t project that shit on me man! I’m working my ass off.”

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: But it’s like you can’t win because most people are that way. They’re not working that hard on themselves.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: And if you’re super, super self-aware, and you’ve worked really hard, and you can pick up on weird cues, and… Because that’s what this does? Right? I mean when I go out there…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: ...I’m basically like a psychoanalyst. I can…I start picking up on things. I catch myself before I do…or while I’m doing something, I can… Most people aren’t doing that.

THERAPIST: Mmmm. [00:14:44]

CLIENT: So it kind of almost makes you…in a sad way, it’s great. But it kind of marginalizes you in a way because it’s like, I can’t put blinders on and just be like, “Whatever! I’ll just hear from her when I hear from her…whatever. Or I won’t and I won’t and…” I don’t know. Do you know what I’m saying?

THERAPIST: I mean in a way (inaudible at 00:15:48) it ends up being even more critical with people. You actually can see what…

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: …their doing. (overtalk) trauma there. (ph)

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that is great, but when you realize “JC” most fuckin’ people are like this. They’re not like this. They’re like that, you know. So… And then you can’t go around just judging all that because…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: …they’re people. They don’t mean any harm.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm. Umm hmm.

CLIENT: Most of them. You know? But then the problem is you’re…you know, I mean you’re alone.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: You know you’re trying to…you are…I am trying to…I mean, this is the most I’ve tried to connect with anybody in my life!

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: I’m pretty out there with people. You know?

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: So it’s like “fuck me.” Like…people are just… (pause)

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: And if you are like me, you’re like, “I’m not gonna settle. I’m not gonna…you know I really need to feel that thing for someone…”

THERAPIST: Umm hmm. [00:16:35]

CLIENT: Well, then…good luck. I mean, it’s not… It’s like a needle in a haystack. (pause) I don’t know. But, I mean I know it won’t be like that because you know, I’m pretty fun (ph) I mean I’m writing. Oh I didn’t send you…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: I put up another essay.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: You know I wrote another essay about the cemetery where my dad’s buried and where my friend’s mom…you know. There’s so many Assyrians buried at this place.

THERAPIST: Which cemetery again?

CLIENT: Cheshire?

THERAPIST: Mmm.

CLIENT: It’s just a bland…you know typical kind of bland town cemetery.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: So I mean, I’m… It’ll never be ever like a Michelle or Samantha or where I put things on hold…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: Because I feel weird… You know, like I’ve got a new place where I can feel this?

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: I can feel annoyed and shitty, but I will still go to the café and… [00:17:33]

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: …try to write something. For whatever reason, now it’s just happening. You know? So that’s great. But (pause) It’s just a bummer, you know? That’s all. (pause) On the other hand, it’s also not like Samantha because I also am trying not to make it into something that it might not be.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: I’m sure I’ll hear from her…whatever. And…and, the difference is, I am going to tell her. Even if it’s just, “Hey look hey man, you can’t say ‘fuck life and fuck everyone…’

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: …and then not get in touch to, you know, like that’s…that kind of…that’s not cool with me.” So… So yeah, all those things are very different than…

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I’m also not in love with her…you know.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: I already know that (inaudible at 00:18:25) I could get, they’re not even like her…or not.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: But it’s just, it’s just disappointing. It’s disappointing that people are disappointing. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s a bummer. (pause) But it’s a reminder that this is a huge, huge transitional time for me, so I do, you know…I have to keep doing what I’m doing, which is… I’ve been very careful…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: …about, you know. I gotta just look out for myself and whatever feels right…you know what I mean? Without over thinking and feeling guilty about this or that or…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: I just gotta do what feels right to take care of myself. [00:19:05]

THERAPIST: Mmmm. (long pause) I also wonder how much there’s a kind of transference you’re having to the world or to people right now that is about how disappointing you’re early life was…and (overtalk)

CLIENT: Yeah, oh yeah. Definitely. (overtalk) Oh definitely.

THERAPIST: …seeing and marrying the first time in a really deep way. How disappointing you mother was (overtalk)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like you dream of yelling at the piano teachers…

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: …the authority and saying (inaudible at 00:19:51) look, you’re mad at…

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: It’s not okay what they’re doing. And you were terribly, terribly, terribly disappointed.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: In the kind of contact you didn’t…

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You had and didn’t have.

CLIENT: Right. And see that’s the thing. There’s a trick… I mean, but in a way it is and it’s not. That’s kind of what I was doing with Samantha.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: And Michelle, you know. Now it’s not quite that because now I know it’s not.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean? So now the problem is I have to balance. I mean, yeah. But I’m also catching myself and I’ll be like, “Well, I’m just projecting this…I don’t even fuckin’ know this girl.” So like I know that I’m pro…

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:20:30)

CLIENT: She doesn’t know it. Yeah, but then I’m project… I know that. I know that now. So it is it and it’s not it at the same time, you know.

THERAPIST: Well the thing is when people project, too, in the beginning…like the first encounter with somebody is 90% projection. Right?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: With anyone. So, in a way she only has [down to fall] (ph) You know…

CLIENT: Yes. Yeah.

THERAPIST: (overtalk) not really a real person.

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: And getting to know each other in this w – also online instead of in person – also probably adds to that…the possibility of projection into her.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: She has a storyline that fit’s yours. (overtalk)

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah…

THERAPIST: But she’s (overtalk)

CLIENT: And people, people present themselves wherever they want…

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: …online.

THERAPIST: Of course.

CLIENT: They kind of smooth the rough edges and this stuff. Yeah. (pause) Yep. (pause) I’ve actually thought about that…that maybe that’s why I’ll never be married or maybe I’ll never have the kind of relationship I’d like to have. Maybe I can’t escape that. [00:21:33]

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: Maybe that’s one thing I’m not going to be able to escape is this thing, right here. Is that all that shit has just made me hypersensitive to people’s peccadilloes in…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: …the way they’ll disappoint you., like all the time.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: So…how do you…? You know what I mean? Someone’s gotta be so amazing…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: …that I’m willing to…you know…I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Or…instead of hypersensitive…yes, hypersensitive, I think that’s there. But I don’t know that that has to be the end state. In other words, you didn’t have a relational experience where you get to be with a parent – someone who loves you – who is pretty darned good, but also disappointing sometimes. And like how being disappointing to each other builds into the loving relationship. [00:22:32]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: So there may be – especially right now when you’re vulnerable – that things are right on the edge. This is an enormous transition. There’s the threat of the abyss of loneliness…

CLIENT: Umm hmm.

THERAPIST: …hanging over this whole space. I think it’ll pull you back a little bit…a kind of heightened sensitivity to a disappointing person, meaning that you’ll forever be alone.

CLIENT: Yeah. That’s (overtalk) true.

THERAPIST: Instead of (overtalk) to what I think you’ll head towards and continue to head towards… [if that] (ph) people are disappointing and that doesn’t mean that they aren’t also incredibly good influences to have, you know?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, yeah. I know that. Okay, you’re right. You’re right. True. [00:23:13]

THERAPIST: So different the repertoire, like when you imagine, “I’ll say to her you can’t…you can’t do that.”

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You’ll see how she responds to that. Can she take it in and say, “Oh my G-d, you were so right. I’m so sorry?”

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Or not. And that’s a moment of actually confronting or being disappointed in her?

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: And seeing if…

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: …it’s something you can work on.

CLIENT: I mean, yeah. That is the difference, actually. Yeah, you’re right.

THERAPIST: Yes!

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, in a way this just goes back to what you were saying, like that you can’t really go back.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know.

THERAPIST: In other words, I think if she responded in a relatively healthy way to your saying, “That hurt my feelings…or I was scared…or did you really…” If she has some space to say, “Oh, let me think about that for a second,” I don’t think you’ll be as turned off as…

CLIENT: No, no!

THERAPIST: …if she gets further crazy around it.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. No. No.

THERAPIST: Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, of course not. Of course not. No because that’s…that’s…I mean that’s the best way to kind of repeal the disappointment, obviously, is if you can…someone has a (inaudible at 00:24:18) Oh shit.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know the other day I um…whatever. You know, sorry about that. I was thinking about it. Of course! Like that’s yeah! Of course. That’s huge!

THERAPIST: And it doesn’t take away being disappointed. You still (overtalk)

CLIENT: No, no, no.

THERAPIST: …the mistake (overtalk) it’s something that was…

CLIENT: But then you can (inaudible at 00:24:32), yes. See that’s what I’m talking about. Because then…yeah, I know I’ve done that, too.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But then that’s the point.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Then I’ll say sorry.

THERAPIST: Exactly.

CLIENT: Of course, I’m not…it’s like I haven’t disappointed people, but…you know. (pause) Yeah. (long pause)

THERAPIST: I wonder if my resp… Did you get my voice-mail yesterday?

CLIENT: I did.

THERAPIST: If it was disappointing in some way.

CLIENT: No, why?

THERAPIST: I don’t know. Just that we were talking about this. Makes me wonder.

CLIENT: Mm mm. [as in “no”]

THERAPIST: I didn’t know. I was sort of on the fence whether I should tell you you just need to come in anyway. (chuckling)

CLIENT: (laughing)

THERAPIST: (laughing) Or take you at face value.

CLIENT: Yeah. No. (inaudible at 00:25:19) (knocking) (tapping)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:25:26) here. Whatever time you have left.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, no. I do, too.

THERAPIST: Even if it isn’t sad. Even if that’s not what you’re feeling (inaudible at 00:25:36) Even if you were feeling anxiety of this…like…

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: What better time to actually help you…

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: …with that. And help ease the transition. I think you’ll feel better…

CLIENT: Yeah, you’re right.

THERAPIST: …heading out.

CLIENT: You’re right.

THERAPIST: If you’re here. Not worse.

CLIENT: Yeah. You’re right. (very long pause) [00:26:19]

THERAPIST: She’s also just a person. You’ll meet so many other people.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. No, I know. I know.

THERAPIST: You think she comes to kind of hold inside her symbolically right now a lot of the feelings about making the transition (overtalk)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: …hopes and fears. [00:27:13]

CLIENT: Right, right. Yeah, that’s true. (tapping) No, I think the best thing right now is just to… (sigh)…just to like keep taking it a day at a time and man…I’m going into it knowing that they’re going to be days like either this or whatever other types of days when I feel kind of off or…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: …down. It’s inevitable. But…that there’s also going to be a lot of good stuff, you know.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: And it’s also…it still is very exciting…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: …regardless of how temporarily…you know… I’m worried about money. I’m worried… [00:28:05]

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: …about this apartment. I’m just nervous, but… (long pause) I think what’s happening this time that has never happened is I’m not losing sight of…I’m finally not losing sight of just my work. And, you know I’m able to sit down, regardless of the money, regardless of this…

THERAPIST: Even in the midst of that.

CLIENT: I’m sorry?

THERAPIST: Even in the midst of that.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. In a weird way, it’s actually making me write more, which is…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: …finally! Like…

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: …that’s never happened. You know. So…

THERAPIST: That’s really exciting.

CLIENT: Yeah. So… I just gotta stick with that…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: …and just kind of take it a day at a time. (pause)

THERAPIST: You’re trying to rent the apartment for April 1st?

CLIENT: I mean, as soon as possible.

THERAPIST: Even now.

CLIENT: Well, I mean…yeah, it would be a preferred (overtalk)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:29:15), yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. I might have to call the realtor today because they…you know, realtors are like, you know, if we’re going to do it, we can’t have you putting it on Craigslist and like, you gotta let us (overtalk) do it. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Today, I might have to go…”Listen, man. I know you guys are kind of perfectionists, but this has just gotta get rented, like…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: …I don’t have time to wait for you guys to do whatever you’re doing.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:29:44) (pause)

THERAPIST: Wait for them to do what?

CLIENT: These guys are really, really good. I’ve known…we’ve known them a long time. They’re like…kind of like family friends, kind of?

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: They’re really good at what they do.

THERAPIST: Hmmm.

CLIENT: But…I mean it’s a little bit my fault. I should…time just, I don’t know how I’m leaving in like a week or whatever it is.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: This is insane. I just…I thought that it’d be enough time…beginning of March or so…to I mean…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: I figured it would rent really quickly. Which it will, but I kind of just… You don’t take into account how quickly the weeks in a month pass?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: By the time we got together? By the time they came over? Then I found out they have a professional photographer…?

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: …take pictures of (overtalk) Like they don’t just put up random shitty pictures. That’s all great…but I just…I need to rent this fuckin’ thing. So… Because I just, you know, I don’t…I don’t… I don’t know. I just worry that, you know I’m going to leave and that somehow it’s just going to get rented to whoever, kind of.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: You know like my mom…I mean, she’s good. She’s been…she’s done it a lot of years by herself. But I just wanted to take care of it and just know…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: …who’s there, whatever…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: …and just go. So anyway… (long pause)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:31:04) worry about her in addition to (overtalk)

CLIENT: Well, yeah, because I mean she’s an old lady in that fuckin’ house, and I don’t want anyone in there that might…either just not be the right fit.

THERAPIST: Ohhh.

CLIENT: But because my mom’s so panicked, she’ll just rent it. You know what I mean? Like…(inaudible at 00:31:21) for a long time we had those fuckin’ Assyrians on the first floor.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: She just panicked and rented it. You know.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: There weren’t bad people, but that wasn’t the right fit for the…you know.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm. Umm hmm.

CLIENT: It just wasn’t good. So, I don’t think that’ll happen this time, but… Because if I do leave and it’s not rented, then I definitely will leave it in the real estates’ hands…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: …because I’ll be able to… They’re good at what they do? We’ve known them many years?

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: Like…they know my mom. They’ll…you know.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: But…

THERAPIST: You could probably talk to them about who would be a good fit.

CLIENT: Yeah, which I’ve already done. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like this is not for two people. It’s a…yes, it’s a one bedroom, but not for two people. You know? It’s always been single women, usually. Professional…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: Yeah, with a cat. Like it’s the perfect place for…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: (tapping) (pause) [00:32:21]

THERAPIST: Do you wish you could’ve done (inaudible)?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But it’ll also get rented?

CLIENT: Yeah. Oh, it’ll get…no it’ll definitely get rented. There are very few apartments like that. Everybody want like a nice little…like a big studio, one bedroom to…you know.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: Plus this time I threw in the heat.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: You know, I cranked up the rent just a little bit…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: …and we’ll just take care of the heat.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: Parking space… I mean it’s nice.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: It’s not super modern, but it’s perfectly nice. You know?

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: (pause) And then like for traveling, I’m totally…I don’t even care. Like I’m not…I’m not going to just so feed my laptop closed, whatever, but I’m not…I’m not going to go nuts packing…[00:33:18]

THERAPIST: Mmmm. Umm hmm.

CLIENT: You know…just not. I mean, look at me? What do I wear every day? A lot of times I wear the same kind of…a version of the same thing with a different t-shirt underneath, or whatever, just to stay clean. But, I’m not going to do what I did with London [00:33:34] and just… Some pants, ties, a shirt…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: …a jack…a suit jacket. You know…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: Whatever. (pause)

THERAPIST: I’m sure your (inaudible at 00:33:54) should be over things also (overtalk)

CLIENT: She probably can’t. I mean…

THERAPIST: No?

CLIENT: I mean, I’d have to have one of my friends come over. She doesn’t really even know I’m good (inaudible at 00:34:01).

THERAPIST: Mmmm. Okay, a friend then.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. I’m going to put some stuff in a separate corner…like books (overtalk) I might need. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm. (very long pause) You know, I start to wonder…even the way you talk about the actual flight over being nerve-racking or…almost the space between being here and then being there as this kind of amiary (ph) [00:34:58] zone where you are alone? Very alone. And you’re like, actually alone. And it like reminded me somehow of when you used to fall asleep at night and get scared, and you talked about (inaudible at 00:35:14) image coming at you. It’s sort of symbolism the kind of badness and evil and fright of what exists when, you know that state when kids are falling off to sleep. You’re very alone.

CLIENT: Umm hmm.

THERAPIST: You’re alone with yourself, with your mind. There isn’t contact with people. That was so scary in that transitional space for you? That reminds me of the kind of…the transitional space of getting to Assyria.

CLIENT: It’s funny though. I’m not like that. It’s weird.

THERAPIST: Yeah. You mean…

CLIENT: Any time I’ve traveled…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: I’m not like that. Like I said, I just…I don’t like flying...

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: But, luckily I’m also the type, I’ve come to see over time the more I’ve flown all over the place, is that I actually take comfort… I mean, you’re kind of…you not alone. You’re crammed in there with a shit load of people.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: So in a way, I’ve always taken comfort in like…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: I mean, God forbid if something happens, it’s going to happen to all of us.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: And these are all people with lives and this and that...and we’re all here together. You know?

THERAPIST: Umm hmm. Umm hmm. [00:36:16]

CLIENT: So I’ve always taken out…it might…it’s kind of morbid, I guess, but it’s comforting. You know (overtalk) there’s this… Yeah, there’s the stewardess offering me a Ginger Ale. She’s there, too. You know?

THERAPIST: Mmmm. Mmmm.

CLIENT: We all want to get to where we’re going. We’re all here together, you know?

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: So…or at the airport?

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: I actually like airports.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: I like the…I kind of like that…and everyone’s kind of excited a little bit. People coming and there’s possibilities everywhere.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: So I actually – once I get into that process of going – generally I…

THERAPIST: It’ll be okay.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And I hear that.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: I’ve never heard you say once you’re there, it’s like you’re in panic mode…

CLIENT: Oh, oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: …all the time. But something in the anticipation of that…the letting of here.

CLIENT: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yeah, it’s not this time of (overtalk) Well, actually be going.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s the thinking about the going.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. (inaudible at 00:37:11) Of course. Yeah, I agree with that.

THERAPIST: And even if you’re flying, you say that as though like, “Well, that’s the end of the story. I’m just afraid of flying.” But it’s like of interest when people have a fear of flying. Why? What…some people do...some people don’t. And…

CLIENT: Well, because the fear is that…well, because I’m still not completely over the fear of death. Right? I mean, you know…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: That’s the big one. I think it about it more than I think some people do, whatever.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: But also because my whole life has been such a dis…things have been…people have been so disappointing, which then has stopped…

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: …me from accomplishing things.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: For me like it’s…that’s terrifying that somehow I’ll be cut short before I can really accomplish…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: …things I’m… I know that I’m very well capable of accomplishing.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: That’s a terrifying thought.

THERAPIST: Mmmm. [00:38:06]

CLIENT: I’m sure once I get to like 60 or 65, maybe that’ll…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: You know what I mean. Like I’ll be “Okay, well at least I got this far.”

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: So, fine okay. Now I’m on…these are all golden bonus years, or whatever.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: But, you know, I feel like I’ve got like 20 years maybe…I mean of really being more kind of active and productive…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: …and, I don’t know…something.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm. Umm hmm.

CLIENT: I can’t even believe that these words are coming out of my mouth.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: It’s like unbelievable to me.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: So yeah, I feel like the clock’s ticking. I’ve gotten good at dealing with it and whatever, but… Then when I think about like a flight. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: These kinds of things just seem so weird to…. I mean I already… You know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Mmmm.

CLIENT: You know what I mean. Like that’s…you know, that’s what it is.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: I think some people are just fuckin’ – G-d bless them – it’s just they’re able to not think about it.

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? They’re not thinking like, “Oh, that’s weird. I’m sitting in a chair flying at fuckin’ 700 miles an hour.” I mean, just the technology of it still… [00:39:11]

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: I just don’t understand it? It seems insane? Like all that stuff. It seems like it shouldn’t be possible? So that’s one layer…but then if you add to it.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: Normally, that would just be fascinating and kind of funny or whatever.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: But then when you add to it, like “JC” like I feel like I don’t really have that much time left for all the things I want to do with my life and…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: …you know. I could’ve already done so much if things…

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: …had been different, you know. That’s not a…it’s terrifying.

THERAPIST: Mmmm. (pause) Like regret can get heightened (overtalk)

CLIENT: Big time. Big time.

THERAPIST: Like your life is (overtalk)

CLIENT: Regret and kind of like ang…not anger, but yeah like frustration, like mother fucker, like that’s what it’s come to. That…you know.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm. [00:39:58]

CLIENT: Yes, I’m fine. I’m on the plane. I’m not having a panic… Yeah, but still I have to think about…like “fuck me.” Like that…I’d be so fucking pissed…you know? And then I have to remind myself, “Well, but it won’t matter, because once you’re dead, you won’t even know that you’re dead, so…”

THERAPIST: Mmmm.

CLIENT: I have to like literally walk myself through…

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: …like (inaudible at 00:40:20) you feel that now because you’re alive, but when you’re no longer alive, you won’t have time to regret anything. So… it won’t matter. It’s okay.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: Those are awful things to have to like think about. (very long pause) [00:41:24]

THERAPIST: I also wonder if flying is a kind of very deep layer of being…um, helpless and…

CLIENT: Yeah, of course.

THERAPIST: Dependent.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, not that everyone is at this level thinking about it, but you’re in…your life is in…

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: …someone else’s hands (overtalk)

CLIENT: Oh, I think it all the time. Yeah, we don’t know who these people are. I mean, yeah. It’s… And that’s the thing, I think it’s so great that people are able to either not think about it or it’s just a passing thought and they’re just somehow whatever, you know.

THERAPIST: Umm hmm.

CLIENT: But yeah, no for me like each one of those is a hallway I don’t want to go down.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s like I don’t know these fuckin’ people. What the fuck! That’s insane when you think about it! You know.

THERAPIST: Well, especially when you had a…like very early life… When are we helpless and dependent? As babies. And (inaudible at 00:42:24). It’s a kind of repetition of that early experience, and if it didn’t go well and you…

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: …couldn’t rely…

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: …you turned to people for help who were not helpful.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It did not go well.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Then if you’re left preoccupied with, “Can I count on people? Do I just have to fend for myself?” (pause) You know I think that could be a layer of are you going to be here with me or not with me in this transition. Like there’s on the one hand sad…but there’s another kind of backing away into just relying…self-reliance. What you’ve always done when the going got tough.

CLIENT: Umm hmm.

THERAPIST: That’s what you did when your died. (inaudible at 00:43:08) could you actually be here and help this be useful for you…

CLIENT: Umm hmm.

THERAPIST: …and valuable even if it’s a little sad at the last day or something.

CLIENT: Umm hmm. (very long pause)

THERAPIST: We’ve gotta stop (overtalk)

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I will let you know. I’m going to see if there’s something I can do…

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: …to switch something around for tomorrow afternoon because (inaudible at 00:44:14) it would be good to be here.

CLIENT: That’d be great, yeah, if you can. Thanks, Claire. (overtalk) Thank you. Alright, I’ll see you. Thank you.

END TRANSCRIPT