TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I guess update from last time. I think I’ve been (inaudible 00:08) the protocol, as we call it, and it’s actually worked out a lot better than in the past where I would, you know, fall into maybe a somewhat routine pattern of, you know, bringing back up the thought again and not answering the question. But, you know, since the last session, I’ve been, you know, really good at just focusing on what we talked about, what we wanted to practice. There’s only been a couple times where I caught myself going down the route of getting into repetition, and I just kind of would stop that. And then, actually, the frequency of (pause) thoughts coming up, it seems like it’s being (ph) less too. So maybe it’s…

THERAPIST: Drat.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: Less practice.

CLIENT: Less practice. So, oddly enough, it hasn’t I think, maybe, you know, sticking to the protocol, from what I can analyze, it helping the frequency go down because you’re not getting I’m not getting stuck in a pattern as much. So either way, whatever is working seems to be working, which is good. I’m not going to really dive too deep into questioning why. I mean…

THERAPIST: Well, let me back up to the -

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: You said you were able to interrupt the repetition and think (ph). Do you know what drives that repetition? Do you I mean, is there a message that you think you’re receiving or as though you’re getting a message that says it’s important to do this or -

CLIENT: I think the times I’ve noticed it was if the way I’m rethinking the thought or not answering the question feels, I don’t know, odd to me or different. It would kind of almost, for a moment, catch me back in the old times, where I would, you know, “Oh, I didn’t clear that correctly.” Where now I try to if I notice that, I’ll maybe say some different way, so it’s not always the same, so I’m not falling into a complete compulsive pattern, you know. [00:02:26]

THERAPIST: So it goes back to, “I didn’t clear it well (ph).”

CLIENT: Sort of. Sort of, yeah. But I caught myself just a couple times. I noticed, like, okay, no, that’s not what I want to do, so I maybe practiced, you know, saying it, like, a little different way. Or even if it didn’t feel, in the old way, cleared, I would just move on.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, I like how you said it a few minutes ago, which is, I’m, you know, I’m not going to delve into very deeply about this. It’s whatever’s working is working. And I think that’s a -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Just stick with the protocol and don’t have to worry about analysis and anything. Just stay you just work it, you know. You just work the system.

CLIENT: So I haven’t had as much practice as the week in Dallas, because I thought that was kind of a bad week. But I feel like since we talked last, I was able to practice a more effective way of dealing with those, you know, compulsive thoughts or behaviors. So…

THERAPIST: Anything frustrating? Any particular time of day or type of event that is more -

CLIENT: I think I noticed a little bit of an old, like [I don’t know] (ph), the first or second session, I touched on and I don’t know if this is part of the compulsive behavior, but there’s times when, you know, my wife might say or do something and I’ll feel like she didn’t say it in a nice enough way or, you know, I questioned if she’s mad about something or upset. If, like, sometimes if there’s more of those feelings, then it tends to lead me more into those thoughts. So if there’s less of me feeling like she’s, you know, stressing me out or making me anxious, then there’s less of those things.

THERAPIST: Wait. Say that last sentence again. If there’s less…

CLIENT: If there’s less things I’m feeling anxious about, because if my wife said or did or whatever, I feel like there’s less negative repulsive thoughts that come up.

THERAPIST: Okay, and what’s the opposite of that? There’s more (pause) what? There’s more questioning of what her tone of voice was or…

CLIENT: Yeah, so it’s -

THERAPIST: Or I can’t quite interpret. I kind of got a sense that that was a signal.

CLIENT: Right, yeah. So it’s like if there’s more of that, there’s more of the other. So if there’s less upfront, then they’ll be less of the latter.

THERAPIST: And so did you have some brushes with “I wonder what she meant by that” or “I’m not sure she really was honest when she said she was sorry”?

CLIENT: Yeah, and I can’t really pinpoint it, but sometimes [both of] (ph) my parents were here this weekend for Thanksgiving. Actually, they were here for a whole week, and we had a lot of good times Sometimes it’s weird. It’s almost like if you’d say something in conversation to my parents like, whether it was positive, negative, whatever I’d kind of catch myself thinking, like, “Well, I wonder why she said that. Like, I would have rather had her say this instead or react this way.” And I’m kind of like, “Wait, no. She’s her own person and I shouldn’t be thinking how she should react to something.” And I felt myself a little bit, you know, bothered by something whether it was, like I said, negative or positive or whatever. [00:06:00]

THERAPIST: Now, do you think that was an OCD moment? Or do you think that was, like, something else? Like, I mean, did you feel a little annoyed at her for having -

CLIENT: Yeah, I don’t know. It’s hard to tell. I don’t know -

THERAPIST: That could be just marriage, in terms of, you know, she’s reflecting me and if she says it this way, they might -

CLIENT: Yeah. That’s what (ph) was hard for me to tell. I didn’t know if it’s an OCD thing or if it was just part of my (pause) behavior and perception, where…

THERAPIST: Well, would have happened next, if you hadn’t checked yourself? Then what would have gone on mentally? I mean, that would be one way to get a sense of it.

CLIENT: I guess I’d feel a little I’d feel more anxious on (ph) maybe what she said or feel this little, like -

THERAPIST: But not irritated, but anxious. Kind of worried. Bothered.

CLIENT: Maybe actually more irritated, actually. Not, like, really worried. Just kind of like, “Oh, gosh. I wish she would have phrased that different to my parents.” You know, like -

THERAPIST: Because?

CLIENT: They might think negatively or they might think I don’t know. That’s weird.

THERAPIST: But again, does that sound like an irritation or more like a “that’s wrong. That’s inappropriate. That was not very mature. That was condescending. Or that was -” I mean, is it a judgmental kind of thing or -

CLIENT: I think it’s more -

THERAPIST: kind of like…

CLIENT: I think it’s more a judgmental thing, yeah.

THERAPIST: And the only thing we have to do is go one step beyond that, and that what feeling comes next? And if it then drops you into anxiety, from irritation, then you can go, “Okay, well, let me just treat that as I’m not messing with this. I’m just going to let this one go.” Now, what you said before was, “Well, she’s her own person, you know. (inaudible 08:01) [you can just grab it] (ph).” So that’s a fine intervention about any of those, right? And if that works, by saying it one time, we don’t have to figure anything out. If it does drop into the anxiety piece, then you can probably go, “Okay, well, I’m going to be suspicious that this is probably my little cycle that I do, and I’m going to drop it even if I should (ph).”

CLIENT: Yeah, and that’s why I had a hard time of understanding if it was, like, an OCD thing or something else. Like, I don’t seem to get stuck in any sort of repetition if she says something or does something. I just (ph) might kind of internally shut down a little bit and feel a little like…

THERAPIST: That’s that kind of withdrawing and low, feeling kind of mopey or…

CLIENT: Yeah. I’m not sure, you know, why, but I’d like to work on that a little bit more because (ph) I’m getting a better handle on I don’t know if it’s the same sort of thing.

THERAPIST: Well, we can try to explore it a little bit. Well, how’d it go when those things happened and you kind of let them you said that she’s did that work when you kind of dismissed it as, you know, she’s her own person? Or did you still feel kind of -

CLIENT: I felt a little bit still this kind of yeah (ph).

THERAPIST: And more a little withdrawn? A little quiet?

CLIENT: Yeah. Like, she was like, “Well, why are you so quiet?” I’m like, “I don’t know. Nothing, really. It’s fine.” And I go (inaudible 09:35) you know, there’s sometimes where you’ll say something and I might take that a different way, and I might just kind of shut down a little bit. And I said, you know, something like that. It’s not even a big deal.

THERAPIST: Okay. Well, do you think the event is something worth processing? Here’s what you said, and -

CLIENT: I don’t really think so.

THERAPIST: here’s how I reacted to it. Why not?

CLIENT: Because I feel like a lot of times, they’re such little or petty things, I shouldn’t even begin to have a second thought, you know. [That’s the thing] (ph).

THERAPIST: So even if she made a mistake here, I’m just going to move to compassion or forgiveness or -

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: I’m just going to allow it to go on by.

CLIENT: Right. It’s weird because, a lot of times, it’s like, for some reason, like, a cue to me is, like, tone of voice is such a big cue. And I don’t I even noticed at work the other day, there’s this guy that’s got hearing aids. And he talks really kind of loud, like, almost like he’s yelling at you. But he’s not mad or yelling. But my first instinct was, like, “Wow, he’s really getting worked up [in here] (ph).” And then after the meeting, I was like, “No, that’s just kind of how he talks.” Whereas my wife might say something and she might be really sincere and genuine about it, but her voice might not go up in pitch, so it might not seem as uplifting as I would -

THERAPIST: Right, so you’re sensitive to that kind of tone and so forth.

CLIENT: It’s kind of weird because I feel like sometimes it’ll come and go, as far as my sensitivity on, like, a, you know, verbal tone or something.

THERAPIST: Right. Well, so all things being equal, in this kind of circumstance, when you go, “I’m not sure if this is one of those events or not,” always err on the side that it is.

CLIENT: It is. Okay. [00:11:32]

THERAPIST: Because you have a disorder of uncertainty. So you’re going to go, “I don’t know whether I should be or I shouldn’t be.” Now, in the other times, where you go, “Well, that’s annoying that she said that.” I mean, when you get a pretty distinct cue inside you that you’re clear that she’s kind of crossed the bounds and, like, you know, “Why would she say that to my dad, knowing he’s, you know, blah blah blah.” So when you got those things that are really clear, you know, that’s something to address, whether you’re going to say something to her or you’re going to try acclimate. But when you get to, “I don’t know,” I think I would err on the side of OCD as an obsession, because otherwise, every event. You’re going to call every event into question.

CLIENT: Yeah [that would get really annoying] (ph).

THERAPIST: So you tried that, where you just went, “Okay, well, I’m just going to let this go.” And you said at least one event, you kind of went back to this kind of low feeling. Or did that last? Did it happen more than once?

CLIENT: I feel like it just it kind of lasted for -

THERAPIST: It happened enough for her to notice it.

CLIENT: Yeah. I honestly didn’t really know what completely, like, set it off. I couldn’t think of one thing that, like you know, I was trying to think of one thing where I could have that unsettling thought again and practice like we did. But [it seemed like] (ph) there was a bunch of little things that kind of made me feel, you know, anxious, and I just kind of shut down a little bit and just got a little quiet.

THERAPIST: And so do you have any perspective on where if that wasn’t OCD, do you have any perspective on where that pattern might have come from in you?

CLIENT: I don’t really.

THERAPIST: Make any sense from your past or any kind of sensitivity around relationships like this? [00:13:34]

CLIENT: I don’t have anything really concrete, no.

THERAPIST: And when you had that kind of low feeling, if you were to put a message on that, what would be the message? I mean, I’m making something up. It’s like, oh, you know, my life’s not going right. Or I feel out of control of this relationship or -

CLIENT: I think it would just basically be like (pause) frustrated or maybe…

THERAPIST: Or what would be the sense that would be the reasonable facsimile of frustrated? What is the message? What are you frustrated about?

CLIENT: I guess [I’d be] (ph) frustrated at the way, like, she might have come off in something she said or did, but I don’t -

THERAPIST: Perception. How your parents might have perceived her in this example. What was frustrating about that?

CLIENT: I don’t know. It’s almost like there’s I’m more worried about what other people would think or say in conversation, if there’s something she said that I didn’t really, you know, agree with or something, which doesn’t make much sense.

THERAPIST: Well, again, it makes sense when the issue is, “She and I are one. How she comes across is a reflection on me. I feel a little embarrassed that she’s presenting herself that way because that makes me look bad.”

CLIENT: Maybe that is -

THERAPIST: Or, “People are going to judge my wife negatively.” That’s (pause) on me.

CLIENT: I think that’s part of it. I think that kind of makes sense. We’re [so almost one] (ph) that -

THERAPIST: So it’s a kind of symbiosis of her and I, and so two of us make one.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: How do you think one ought to respond to that?

CLIENT: Probably go back to (inaudible 15:52) protocol and if something she’s saying or doing isn’t something I’d really say or do, maybe I’d just take that thought in again and just kind of let it go and not worry about judgment or if somebody’s judging her.

THERAPIST: Okay. Although it sounds like you’re getting hit by it anyway, you know. It’s one thing to you know, to the degree that we’ve been working with the OCD stuff. And I think this is right now we’re talking about something slightly different than the OCD. But, you know, once you start having that low feeling and you’re starting to go (sound effects), “This is a reflection of me.” Or even if you can’t quite articulate it. It might be interesting, in those moments, to kind of stay with it a little bit and use it. In this example, you weren’t even aware that that was going on for you? Or you weren’t aware that you were projecting it out, that somebody could notice it?

CLIENT: Yeah, I wasn’t really aware that it was -

THERAPIST: That you had become quieter.

CLIENT: Yeah, I just kind of slipped into that a little bit. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. So if you were wife identified it to you, kind of reflected back, like, “I should have been quiet,” you might have been able to go, “Oh, I think I know where all this started”?

CLIENT: Yeah, I think.

THERAPIST: And then (pause) so, you know, one move to make is self-compassion. Fine, I’m having that reaction. Don’t really understand why I’m having that kind of reaction, but I am, and (pause), you know, it’s a flaw. Minor flaw of mine. And I can forgive myself or accept myself for being that way, maybe. So we have the reaction, and then we have a reaction to the reaction. So we have a response to the reaction. And so, when you have the reaction that kind of goes (sound effect). So one response is to just take, you know, just sit for a little bit. See if you can reflect on and see where your mind goes, and see if any, you know, flash comes up or memory comes up. Or you could even invite yourself to dream about it. And you might, you know, [you never know] (ph). The unconscious comes up with some data sometimes. You can do that. [00:18:10]

So you can open up some space to see what might come up. And the second is to do it, the curiosity, from a self-compassionate place, as opposed to a “what’s wrong with me that this is happening?” or “what’s wrong with her that she’s doing that?” Because it sounds like you and I are thinking that her infraction is minor if an infraction at all. It may not be anything. So we don’t have to spend time trying to analyze why she might have said that. But…

CLIENT: Yeah, I think that’s why it’s been my unproductive time was trying to analyze, “Why’d she say that?”

THERAPIST: What does that mean?

CLIENT: What did she mean by that?

THERAPIST: Yeah. And so that, that’s the OCD piece that we would want to go ahead and go, “I’m not going there.” Because if you go there, then you can’t go where we’re talking about now, which is, “Well, I wonder if I can learn anything about myself.” You do it (inaudible 19:10). It’s like, these things happen enough. I don’t have to understand this particular one. But I’m watching and trying to learn and gather some information as it comes. Make myself available to it. And be okay that it happened. Which, again, is a little different than just letting it go, because you are having feelings. And I don’t think we should dismiss your feelings. Acknowledge your feelings. You don’t have to chase them or anything. Go, “Okay, well there’s that.” And if you could get yourself to start talking again or even let her know. I think -

CLIENT: Yeah, I have.

THERAPIST: What did you say to her this time? You acknowledged something, right?

CLIENT: Yeah, I said, you know, “I’m feeling fairly anxious right now, just from some things (inaudible 20:01) come up in conversation.” I said, “I’m not really sure why I’m feeling anxious.” I said, you know, “I’ll try to work on not, you know, shutting down or getting all quiet when, you know, something maybe doesn’t go my way (inaudible 20:18) or something,” you know.

THERAPIST: And did she inquire further about that to try to figure out what specific because you’re alluding to something in the conversation. She didn’t go, “Was it something I said?” She didn’t do that? I probably would have.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I can’t remember exactly what it was, honestly, because (inaudible 20:34) so petty.

THERAPIST: Yeah. But she did ask.

CLIENT: [You’re right] (ph).

THERAPIST: And were you able to remember what it was?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And how’d she respond to that?

CLIENT: It was basically something like, “Don’t be silly. That’s not even (ph) what I meant at all.” Or, you know, something like, “No, I wasn’t being wasn’t trying to come off rude about something,” you know. But it’s usually never the it’s never the fact that I’m thinking though. It’s always about the opposite, you know.

THERAPIST: Say that again.

CLIENT: So usually, if I’m thinking, you know, she came off, which I would maybe say to her, you know, rude or brash. She would never mean to come off that way. It’s me and the whole, like, tone perception.

THERAPIST: And do you think it’s a hundred percent you? She has no ownership in things that she says in these examples?

CLIENT: I think I probably elevate it to a height that it doesn’t need to be, but there is times when she is a very direct person, and she knows it. And there’s some times where she’s like -

THERAPIST: And that’s a little rough for you.

CLIENT: And she’s like, “I just stuck my foot in my mouth.” And she’s like, “I know that I sometimes should think a little bit more before I say something.”

THERAPIST: So when you bring up this example like we’re talking about, you know, one thing you say to her is, “Well, I’m not actually telling this to you to get you to correct my thinking. I’m more, like, just trying to be open about what triggered it. And I’m working on this and thinking about it, trying to figure it out.” And then, “Thanks for noticing. And I’ll try to come out of it.” So after you have that little exchange with her, then how are you doing? [00:22:23]

CLIENT: Fine.

THERAPIST: I mean, does that mood, that feeling, stay shifted all after she calls you on, “How come you’re quiet”?

CLIENT: Not immediately. It’s not like you’re flipping a switch. But at least helps me seem to kind of move past (pause) whatever triggered it.

THERAPIST: Yeah, because I think that’s the other piece, is to have when you find yourself sinking in, is to be able to see if you can reach out. And if it’s safe enough to reach out to her and say, “I’m kind of going through that period now.” Then that may be kind of a helping hand to get you into contact again. Because you go quiet, you go up here, in the head. And so she can come out here and kind of state what it is that’s going on without having to feel contrite or remorse or (inaudible 23:17).

CLIENT: At least what I do following (ph) is, you know, acquire whatever time it is. It’s not like it’s super long-lasting. Like, you know, if it’s at night, I’ll wake up in the morning and it doesn’t even cross my mind.

THERAPIST: Right. But it’s uncomfortable for you and you’re curious about what’s going on, and that’s fine, you know. We can go down a different path. We can look at childhood and all that kind of stuff to figure that out, but let’s not. I mean, we can. Let’s just see what we can do about being in the moment with [it all] (ph), and it would be totally acceptable to kind of trace some things back and to see if we can get some sense about that. That’s an all right way to do the therapy. But right now, we’re trying to do more grief therapy oriented stuff (ph).

CLIENT: So similar to the protocol before with this type of thing, I should more kind of relish in the uncertainty of what I was feeling, and then…

THERAPIST: No. No. I think the anxiety about “what did she mean by that?” we can put that in that category. And I would just kind of recognize it and go, “I’m not going there.” Here, we’re doing an authentic exploring. It’s, like, not embellishing it. Not to try to feel worse about none of that of stuff, but just, like, let’s there’s a part of me that I don’t quite understand yet, and I want to open up some space to be curious. Because I think you feel bad and then feel bad about feeling bad.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Is that does that make sense to you? You know, it’s like you get that kind of, I keep wanting to say, low-key feeling, but that’s not quite right. It has to do with energy and so forth. But you kind of sink a little bit, and then you seem a little disappointed in yourself or something, that you have that feeling. And so we’re trying to lift that off so that we can just be okay with it and see what happens. And, you know, as soon as you have some kind of critic come in in there or some kind of judgment about that, then that squelches any kind of learning that comes. So we (ph) can lift that off and go, “(inaudible 25:33) nothing comes up, nothing comes up and it’s okay that I do this.”

And then the other thing is if it seems easy to do, even before she calls you on it, to be able to go, “Gosh, you know, I had this little event.” And I wouldn’t necessarily tell her what it was. I mean, one of the things to explore is to hold the specific in check, because it’s not about the specific. It’s about, “I think you said something.” “Well, what specifically did I say?” “Well, you know, I don’t that’s not what I’m looking at. You know, I don’t I can already tell you, you know, what you said is not important. And I don’t need you to, you know, correct me and remind I know. I’m exaggerating these kind of things.” So I go with those two directions, which is trying to lift myself out a little bit to make contact. And also, be curious and see what’s going on and dissect it a little bit. But you have to be careful around that dissecting, all right, because it’s not so much don’t dissect what she said, but dissect what else is coming up for me, if anything. So would that be an okay plan?

CLIENT: Yeah. I just want to reiterate that (inaudible 26:56). So for instance, say, I don’t know, something comes up where she says -

THERAPIST: Well, let’s go to the past. So go ahead and talk about one that did come up. I mean, you don’t have to be specific about it, but here we are at Thanksgiving, talking to the parents. This thing happens. And then what would you do? (Pause) If you were to do it differently.

CLIENT: Recognize I feel anxious or whatever, and just kind of think, “All right, you know, that’s fine. It’s okay that I’m feeling anxious,” but just not really dive into trying to figure out why. Just kind of accepting that feeling and not, you know, feeling frustrated that I’m feeling frustrated and going down that, you know, kind of double-negative path. And I know she finds me slipping into a quiet state or if I notice I am, I can say, you know, “I just kind of had some thought. I just want to let you know, and I don’t need to get into, you know, specifics.”

THERAPIST: Yeah, but you left out the “I’m getting that sinking feeling.” So the anxiety, I’m not going to if the anxiety is about why, analyzing why that just happened, I’m going to let that go and not analyze it. But what do you want to do about the kind of falling into yourself feeling? Based on what we were saying.

CLIENT: Do I say just accepting that feeling and just not, I guess, relishing in it? And just -

THERAPIST: Yeah. So I’m accepting it. Have compassion for myself. I don’t really understand it, and that’s okay not to understand it. But I’m going to have compassion for (pause) this little nuance of mine, emotionally. Anything else that we talked doing in that moment?

CLIENT: I feel like there was. I’m trying to -

THERAPIST: Just keeping my mind open about, do I notice anything about that?

CLIENT: Oh, that’s right.

THERAPIST: (inaudible 29:06) Let me just kind of relax into [feeling this] (ph) kind of feeling. What’s the feeling like? I can notice it. I can say it to myself. So I can kind of report it to myself. And just, you know, (inaudible 29:22) have self-compassion and I’m not running from it. I’m going to, you know, (inaudible 29:26) the mindfulness that they talk about. Just to be mindful is to be able to step back and feel compassion and notice it. So you kind of take that mindfulness into the fire. Right now, the fire is not feeling really good. And just see if any information comes up. And if not, it’ll fade.

CLIENT: Okay. And if information does come up, then…?

THERAPIST: Write it down. Come in here. (Laughter) You know, I mean, if we’re, you know, right (ph). So we’re really so there’s three pieces of anxiety around the analysis and, you know, why is she doing that. Having the feeling and being (pause) okay having the feeling. And then, being open to seeing what comes next. And the third is to, if it’s possible for you, to reach out to her and just acknowledge, “Jeez, I think had this transaction here and I can tell I started to sink back a little bit. And I’m coming back.” So to speak to her is to pull out for a bit. It doesn’t’ mean you’re going to stay out, but at least you don’t have to be alone with that particular piece. Nothing that you need from her, other than to acknowledge what you just told her. And then that’s fine. If she wants to check in later, ask you how you’re doing, you can do that. So those are (pause) three moves around that piece. (inaudible 31:03) Sure.

CLIENT: Just for my notes.

(Silence)

The only thing I’m I was trying to do a little searching on why would I why would some of the things come on, you know, (inaudible 31:40) the past? And the only thing that I could (inaudible 31:44) think of is some girl I like to call crazy I dated about four years ago. I mean, she was up and down and all around, and I think she had, like, severe bipolar or something. There would be times when she’d just kind of, like, get tripped off and just kind of, like, go off on me or something. And, you know, like, I’m usually a pretty easygoing, relaxed guy, till I get caught off guard. And probably the only bad relationship I’ve ever really had.

THERAPIST: And that going off is being accusatory of you and -

CLIENT: Well, she tries (ph) -

THERAPIST: Judging you negatively.

CLIENT: Well, just get mad for things of no reason.

THERAPIST: As though you did some infraction.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I remember, at the time, I had a dog and, like, it was my problem, my fault, if my dog was aggressive with the cat. And, you know, she would yell at the dog, then yell at me and get pissed. (Laughter) You know, [thank God] (ph) for those days.

THERAPIST: So you were out of control?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because she was out of control.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: You couldn’t control that stuff. So that maybe woven in there in some way.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But the state you get in now, that we’re talking about, with your wife, does not predate your wife?

CLIENT: No, not really.

THERAPIST: It didn’t happen with other people.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: It doesn’t happen at work or what you just gave the example about, the guy who’s voice was loud. Is that a reasonable facsimile of -

CLIENT: Yeah, that’s a reasonable…

THERAPIST: And are there other situations that you know about in work that seem like a reasonable facsimile of this? In other words, it’s a pattern other than in the marriage?

CLIENT: Yeah. I know sometimes there’s, like, a (pause) so if someone’s critiquing my work, at work, you know, I might get this really rush of anxiety at first. Like, oh god, I can’t believe they’re telling me I need to do this different or that different. Like, I kind of get this rush of, like, “Shit, no (ph). Like, they’re wrong. I’m right.” And, like, (laughter), you know, then I kind of get this, you know, thought of anxiety where, “Oh, no. I have to go back and change that, go ahead and do this different. And oh man, I’m already behind anyway.” And, like so, like, I guess it’s kind of a similar…

THERAPIST: And what’s the “they’re wrong, I’m right” part? Because that doesn’t sound like what you’re responding to. You aren’t responding.

CLIENT: Right. I guess (pause) (crosstalk 34:17)

THERAPIST: Right, but I’m going to have to make the change anyway? Or what? Is it…

CLIENT: I think it’s, like, there are a whole bunch of different ways you can do something in programming language and have the same outcome. Or I have the correct outcome, but they’re like, “Well, I think you need to do a little bit of this different and maybe just change this (inaudible 34:33) faster.” And I’m, like, thinking to myself (inaudible 34:38) it works. I kind of get like, “Darn it. Why do you want me to change it?” But…

THERAPIST: But now that I’m going to have to change it, because you’re the authority, then it’s going to put me behind and now I can’t get it all done, and then…

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And do you think that’s outside of normal limits, in terms of your response? Or does that seem like a pretty normal response for somebody to have?

CLIENT: I mean, I don’t, like, write back any angry e-mails or say anything bad. I kind of just take that in. and then after five or ten minutes, I’m like, “All right. It’s really not a big deal. Like, they’re just trying to be constructive criticism here, when (ph) they’re trying to help me do something a little bit better.” So I kind of it goes up to here, and then it goes down, because I realize, like, it’s really not a big deal.

THERAPIST: That sounds great.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You can get out of that in five minutes. That sounds as good as it gets. I mean, I’d be happy with that, if I were you, in terms of, you know, somebody comes and says what I know to be sufficient is insufficient, and then, because of their authority, I have to make all these changes. That’s annoying and frustrating and anxiety-provoking if I’m already stacked up with work and all that. If you can get out of that in five minutes, that’s a pretty resilient kind of response. So I wouldn’t be messing with that one. (Laughter)

CLIENT: Yeah. That (inaudible 36:08)

THERAPIST: I’d be happy with that one.

CLIENT: Yeah, that was a similar thing, where if somebody would say something, I would kind of first be like, “Oh.” And then like, “Okay.”

THERAPIST: That’s a little of what you do with your wife. You said, “Oh, wait a minute. She’s her own person, and it’s okay for her to be that way.” And again, if you can resonate to that message, you know, take it in and allow that to be a kind of executive message to yourself and cool out, then that’s great too. So again, if, you know, you were writing down those three things that we’re doing. But that one can circumvent everything if you go, “Okay, well there’s that pattern. I don’t need that (ph). You know, no big deal.” And if you can say that, and that works, and it helps you, you can go right to there. Not do anything else, because that’s like what you just said about work. And you can treat it like a habit for a bit (ph) that you want to change. And, you know, if it doesn’t, we want to mess with as few knobs as possible here, right.

So we have to after some kind of little behavioral maneuvers to get out of it. And if those don’t work, then we back up and make it a little more complex and back up again. But if you can treat it like that, I think that’s a fine first response. The only thing I don’t want you to do about that like I’m your boss or something, right? is to be suppressing a bunch of stuff in order to do that. You know, if you can if your whole self kind of lines up with, “Hey, you know, there I go, having me think she’s a reflection of me, and I don’t need to go there.” And if your body might kind of line up to that, with that, then that’s as good as done. And if not and you still feel kind of low, then you got this other process to take.

CLIENT: It’s weird because it’s kind of like it’s been I feel like I haven’t been this, what do you call it, ultra what do you call it? Not my perception. I feel like I haven’t been ultra-sensitive to different things she would say or do until, like, the last six months or so. And I don’t know -

THERAPIST: Does that coincide with anything?

CLIENT: Not really at all, no.

THERAPIST: It doesn’t coincide with the OCD in general, getting or some of the obsessions getting stronger.

CLIENT: Maybe. I mean, I haven’t really tracked anything, but yeah. So for me, more, you know, it kind of goes back to the (inaudible 38:48). Like, oh gosh, why do I do this? Why do I have these thoughts? Where this is kind of, like, well, jeez. I shouldn’t even be, like, bothered if she says, you know, “I really didn’t care for the burger you made,” or something. Or, “I don’t really like beef. Can we get chicken?” You know, I shouldn’t even be, I don’t think, even getting a big old pain (inaudible 39:10), you know.

THERAPIST: Sure. But, you know, we want to be careful about that response. Like, “Oh, I shouldn’t even have that response.” Well, then we’re kind of -

CLIENT: That’s [what I was thinking] (ph).

THERAPIST: kind of pushing it down. So you want to go, “Okay, well that’s interesting I just had that response. I don’t need to get all worked up like this, but there’s that pattern again. Okay.” (inaudible 39:29) you can kind of, you know. Don’t have to get attached to it, but you also don’t have to say, “What’s wrong with me that I’m -” you know, you don’t want to degrade yourself about it because, again, that squelches any kind of creative intelligence about the problem. You got something you’re working out on the programming, you’re going to be, you know, frustrated that it’s, you know. But then you (inaudible 39:53) consciousness with resistance about what’s going on and not having consciousness available for problem-solving. So, you know, you want to go, like, “Okay, this is it. Now what do we do?” As opposed to, “Oh, why does this always happen?” Right? And that’s what you’re doing at work when they make that change. You go you know, you have a little bit of time where you have your little tantrum, you know. And it’s five minutes, and then you go, “Okay, okay. Well that’s not working. (inaudible 40:21) and then I’m going to go and get lined up.”

CLIENT: (Crosstalk 40:26) kind of it’s kind of a fine line between not kind of squelching a feeling or thought that comes up. (inaudible 40:37) everything will, if things (ph) pops up. I’m just like (sound effects).

THERAPIST: Absolutely. We’re not going to figure anything out if that’s how you’re doing it. And it’s no problem solving, right? Or [you have] (ph) a mother who’s really, really anxious and got kids who are really anxious, and the daughter who’s, like, six, one of the times, she’ll be, like, afraid that she’s not going to get out of her seatbelt in the car. And I can’t get out of the seatbelt, and I have to right. And so, the mother goes in to fix it, you know, as soon as her daughter kind of panics around that. And then there’s no problem solving going on.

So either mother takes care of her and gets her out of there, you know, whatever. Or her mother gets mad. “God, I can’t believe I’m just going to -” you know. Because she’s either the rescuer or the persecutor of her little six-year-old, however old the girl is. But there’s no problem solving going on around the anxiety of getting out. And so, I say that to you around the squelching of the “I shouldn’t even have that reaction.” We’re not going to get anywhere when that comes in, so you have to quiet that in order to see what else is around. Is there anything else you think you need to be focused on the next bit (ph)?

CLIENT: I think just those two things, or the two I was previously working on. I feel like I was doing pretty well, and then kind of the new…

THERAPIST: Are you going to have any stimulus in the next couple of weeks around this? Be hanging out with friends or in situations? Do they happen less with friends [or with] (ph) your wife, than it does around some people like your parents?

CLIENT: It seems like it’s (pause) less when it’s just one-on-one with me and her.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we’re talking about (inaudible 42:34). It’s interaction with other people around, so if it’s a group and there’s conversations, interactions and things, that’s where it would occur.

CLIENT: Yeah, more come up, yeah.

THERAPIST: And do you think there’s going to be any of those opportunities in the coming -

CLIENT: [There should be] (ph) with holiday stuff. Now we have a few different things planned with events (ph) and whatever. So [and our next time] (ph) was the 19th. So about, what, two-and-a-half weeks.

THERAPIST: Does that sound all right to you?

CLIENT: That should be fine, yeah.

THERAPIST: So we’re doing good around the OCD stuff, and we’re going to just see how that goes the next time. And then we’re working on this other piece, which is a (crosstalk 43:16). We’ll see how that goes and see if we get a protocol in place. See if you learn anything new. Take notes around seeing (ph) does it come up, even if that’s why you pay me the big bucks, is to help understand. You may have just a response or reaction or something. You’re going, “I don’t know why I did that.” But just bring it in, and maybe two heads will be better than one around those kinds of things. And under the overall umbrella of this “fine (ph) that this is happening to me,” right. It’s like, “It’s fine. I want to look at it, because here I am in therapy and I have an opportunity. And even if this continues for me, I can cope with this. The only thing I’m going to, you know, really focus on is not being hard on myself about it.”

CLIENT: I think that’s the thing that’s helped me the most. I feel like I’ve made progresses accepting that something I’ve recognized for the last, you know, 27 years, I never really dealt with until now and accepting that I’m working on improving myself. It’s helped me, where in the past, it was just, like, this negative, like, “What’s wrong with you? Darn it” thing.

THERAPIST: It’d be great if you were able to keep catching that. I mean, you think a little bit about our relationship. If you don’t sense some kind of compassion from me toward you and I’m just a, you know, I have poor bedside manner but I got ideas and so forth, you can imagine how much more difficult it would be to be interacting with me. And so it’s that, you know, the whole idea of being compassionate with myself, allowing myself to have these responses. I’m going to look at them, but I’m going to look at them from a non-critical way, because the other way hasn’t seemed to work very well.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I think it helps too that (inaudible 45:19) my wife is real supportive and she knows that I’m working on things, and it’s not like it’s really causing you know, we don’t ever yell at each other, get in fights. Like, we just don’t do that. We’re both pretty compassionate. But I tell her sometimes, you know, “I’m really struggling internally with some things I’m working on. I just want to let you know.” And she always says, you know, “I fully support you. Let me know of anything I can help with.” So, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, that’s great. So she’s got the compassion (inaudible 45:50) with her (inaudible 45:51) for you.

CLIENT: She’s very compassionate.

THERAPIST: Ah, I see.

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