TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: All right. I took a couple notes and -

THERAPIST: Let’s see. (inaudible 00:10)

CLIENT: I just wrote down some items that [I guess] (ph) we can talk about. But as far as the (pause) compulsive patterns and thoughts, I feel like they’re still pretty much diminishing. Of if it does come up, I have a pretty good handle on, you know, sticking to the protocols. I feel like I’m still doing pretty good in that aspect. I think the last time we talked more about focusing on some of my behaviors and mood patterns around my wife, so I kind of took notes on, you know, things to look for and those (ph), you know, to recognize. If I’m feeling uneasy or whatever, you know. Then we had self-compassion and see if anything pops up.

So kind of recognized stuff, and it was more, like, I found myself getting irritated or agitated. I don’t know if that’s the right word just for, like, petty little things that shouldn’t be. And I think I kind of maybe, like, wow, why would I really even get irritated by that? You know, I don’t know if I’m just, like, you know, ultra-sensitive to any shape or form of thing, but…

THERAPIST: You’re saying you got irritated at her or at just -

CLIENT: I was irritated at her, but not really trying to direct it towards her? Like, I don’t even know. Like, some really stupid example is if we’re sitting there eating soup, you know, and she’s eating hers and making, like, a slurping (ph) noise, for some reason, that really sometimes just irritates me. And I’m like, that doesn’t make any sense. I shouldn’t do that, you know.

THERAPIST: Although, actually, that’s not uncommon. It actually has a diagnosis. It has a label for it. It’s where you’re sensitive to people are sensitive to those kind of sounds. Chewing popcorn, potato chips. Toast. Slurping sounds. So you’re in company [in case] (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah. I (ph) was just random thing I noticed. I think the one thing I noticed the most was if I felt myself in, like, a slump or a foul mood, I got that way because (pause) I feel like a lot of times my emotions or mood shadow her mood. But not one-to-one, because she might be doing great and happy, but she didn’t show it in an exuberant way like I might. So it’s like I have this offset and, you know, I think she might be, you know, upset. We talked about her, you know, mad about something when she’s not at all, and that reflects on sending (ph) my mood into kind of [I don’t know] (ph). That kind of sucks. Whereas the opposite, where she might, you know, talk about something and I might take that to the other extreme, you know. Like if we’re in a social situation and, you know, something comes up.

But we did have some experiences where we were at a holiday party for a school. Everything was good and fine. I didn’t have an anxiety. There was no you know, we were around 60 different people I’ve never even met. You know, (inaudible 03:23) her introducing me. Me chatting with them. I didn’t really have any (pause) occurrences. So it’s almost like it’s real, you know, hit and miss on -

THERAPIST: Right, but I don’t think you really understood the example of the exuberance or -

CLIENT: Well…

THERAPIST: the opposite of the (ph)….

CLIENT: So, you know, she might be, you know, had a long day at school or work or whatever. She [might even] (ph) just relax on the couch, you know, and just kind of zoning out because she had a long day. And, you know, I might take that as, you know, she’s uninterested in talking to me or she’s, you know, just grumpy about something, when she’s not at all. And I reflect on that as her mood being poor, so then mine kind of gets (inaudible 04:11). It’s almost like I’m -

THERAPIST: I got that one, but I thought you were saying the opposite was also true, and I didn’t understand the opposite one.

CLIENT: Okay, let me talk about the opposite one. So…

THERAPIST: So she’s feeling happy and you feel exuberant or something.

CLIENT: Well, I just, like, I think I actually show my ups and downs more than she does. So I would, you know I’m more expressive of things, and I think a lot of times I look for her to express her emotions the same way as I do. You know, if she doesn’t, then I feel like, well, that’s why isn’t she expressing the same way that I would, you know? Or, as I’m more (pause), you know, shy and softer spoken in public, whereas she might be more outspoken and direct. And, you know, that’s where I kind of get the, like, “I wish she wouldn’t have said it that way” type of feeling.

THERAPIST: Right. But let’s go back to the one just before that, when you said, “She’s not as expressive of her joy or happiness as I am.” Say more about what do you think that means, or what do you imply out of that? She’s not as happy as seems like she ought to be or I would in that scene (ph). And therefore where do you go next with that? What’s that mean, that she does -

CLIENT: So I think I perceive her emotions different than they actually are, and then that kind of, like, for some reason, impacts the way I’m feeling at that time. And I’m not sure -

THERAPIST: And so how do you how does it impact you if she’s not expressing it as up as you would?

CLIENT: I think I just kind of -

THERAPIST: Is it as you would, or as you think she ought to because that’s what you’re feeling?

CLIENT: I think it’s as I would think she -

THERAPIST: So therefore, why isn’t she -

CLIENT: ought to.

THERAPIST: Is it then what’s wrong with her?

CLIENT: Yeah, almost. [And then that] (ph) just makes me kind of, like -

THERAPIST: So concerned or annoyed about that?

CLIENT: More annoyed.

THERAPIST: Annoyed that she’s not being as expressive as it seems like she ought to.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And just because, right? [00:06:30]

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I had a lot of obviously, I’m recognizing different things, but I don’t have -

THERAPIST: So is there a pattern there? [Do you see] (ph) what that pattern is? We (ph) combine the negative and positive and different levels. Do you see a trend?

CLIENT: I don’t know. Should I be? I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Well, [I don’t know] (ph). To the degree we can join them together, then we can see it as one, you know, understand (ph). Like…

CLIENT: I think it’s almost like what you said earlier, was for some reason I don’t know why I feel like I’m expecting different reactions out of her than she would give, and I’m not sure why I would expect certain things. And I don’t know if that’s part of the whole controlling aspect where I, like, (inaudible 07:21), you know, compulsive disorder, where, “Oh, I would have rather had her be more softer spoken about that.” Or, “I would rather her be more excited about that.” You know, I made a nice chicken dinner, whatever, you know, and she’s like, “Oh, yeah. It’s good,” and that was it, you know.

THERAPIST: But it’s not just related to things you’ve done. It’s related to anything. If she’s not happy about some compliment someone gave her or she didn’t think it was that funny, [what somebody] (ph) told a joke.

CLIENT: Yeah, then it’s like I -

THERAPIST: (Crosstalk 07:51) it would go other than you as well.

CLIENT: Right. It’s like I overanalyze whatever she’s feeling. I’m not sure why.

THERAPIST: So what are you trying to figure out? By trying to figure out what’s going on with her, what are you then trying to figure out? So I’m trying to go up a level, if I can. I don’t know any of the answers here. I’m just (inaudible 08:16) machete her. I’m trying to hack through the path through the jungle.

CLIENT: It’s weird because it’s not like I’ve always felt like I’ve done this type of analysis, and it’s almost like it kind of goes in spurts, I don’t know, you know.

THERAPIST: Well, I’ll ask you a different question then. (inaudible 08:36) So if these things happened and you didn’t look at them, study them, try to figure them out, what is that part of you afraid might happen? What do you think you might lose or -

CLIENT: I don’t know.

THERAPIST: If you don’t track that and try to understand it. What bad might happen?

CLIENT: I think I feel like I’ll lose compassion.

THERAPIST: You’ll lose compassion.

CLIENT: Like, if I just kind of let obviously, if I overanalyze anyway, that’s not good. But I feel like I’ll lose I don’t know. Maybe I don’t (pause) I don’t know if I’m really afraid of anything. I mean, it’s just it’s hard to explain. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: So you don’t know. Is that what you’re saying?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So you have a sense of how you could find out?

CLIENT: Go back to our same protocol.

THERAPIST: Which would be what?

CLIENT: Just don’t even think anything. Don’t even go down that -

THERAPIST: Right, so don’t allow myself to try to figure things out about that. Don’t let it. And if you do that, as an experiment, it may give you a clue as to what provokes your distress, right. It’s like, “Okay, I’m (ph) not finding that answer now.” I mean, I would guess it would have something to do with control. I’m losing track or something or I’m guessing. Losing track or losing control of something, because you’re not saying, “I then challenge her,” necessarily. You don’t say or maybe you do. Do you then go, “You kind of took that kind of light (ph). Didn’t you think that was pretty great?”

CLIENT: Sometimes. But I also then try to go with our, you know, thing of if I feel a certain way, like that, I’d be like, “Well, I just kind of had a thought, but I’m not going to go into a why, you know, I would, you know, be upset.” But there is times that I, you know, would dive more into the details than I would need to, you know.

THERAPIST: Right. So to catch yourself and to let go is an exploratory task to discover. As opposed to, here’s how you know fix that problem. Just don’t because we don’t know enough about it, really. We’re still trying to have an understanding. You have you’re searching analytically for answers, right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So I would suspect that it’s not going to be analytic it’s going to be emotional and that the analytic side is somehow protecting you, holding things together. Something. So if you cannot track that, just let that go and see what might come up next. Then maybe we’ll find out if it has something to do with (pause) separation. Individuation. You know, that term, individuation. You can image what that means. Separation and individuation is really what kids do through adolescence as they leave home and so forth. They have to be distinguished from the family and so forth. But some families are enmeshed (ph), and sometimes couples do the same thing. I can’t let her get too far away, because if she’s too different from me fill in the blank. Something bad, you know.

CLIENT: I think that I mean, I see that sometimes, where, you know you know, she’s really busy with school. She’s, you know, CRNA (ph) program. And I think sometimes, when we don’t get that time together, it almost, like I feel like I’m being kind of pushed away, but it’s not on purpose, from her, you know. And I think that tends to lead me more into the, like, the little things, you know, getting me either upset or frustrated or, like, whatever. And then, you know, if we do get to spend some time together, getting kind of (pause) be (ph) back together, then it seems like I’m in a better mood or whatever. So it kind of, you know, a little bit like your -

THERAPIST: So you got a little data about that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And then, as we look at this stuff, it seems like it’s something to do with, “I have to figure this out. I can’t let this go by. If I let this go by, something’s going to start to unravel.” That’s kind of what comes up for me. It’s like, “I need to track this, understand this, or something’s going to slip away. Or she’s going to slip away. Or before I know it, the relationship’s going to start being less than what it needs to be. Or she’s going to separate from me and go off and, you know, leave me.” I’m doing quotes in the air, right (ph). So, I mean, I just that’s what pops up in my head. Do you know what pops up in your head when you think about that?

CLIENT: I think I don’t I don’t ever think about anything, like, she’s going to leave me or anything like that. I think I have more of the fear of (pause) the way she comes off and says something or does something. If that doesn’t agree with me, you know, my super sensitive aura about me, is that going to lead us to (pause) kind of distance ourselves from each other?

THERAPIST: Well, that’s what I mean.

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess that’s -

THERAPIST: Leave me means “I’m holding the rope, and if I let go, they’ll be no one holding the rope and she could float away, or the relationship could there could be a growing distance, and I better track that. Can’t let that happen.” So there’s some kind of control -

CLIENT: Yeah, there definitely is.

THERAPIST: piece that has to do with you know, we’re all control freaks in one way or another, but we’re looking at, you know, the specific way you might be doing it, in a way that’s not that helpful to you. And actually, that your solution was causing the problem at some level.

CLIENT: Yeah, it’s definitely not constructive. But it’s weird, because there’s time when, a couple days, it’ll be just everything’s great. I won’t get into any of these hollow (ph) moods. And then something little will come up, and I’ll just like (sound effects) for, like, half a day, you know. She’ll recognize I’m kind of just, you know, doing whatever, and she’ll kind of give me my space.

THERAPIST: She’ll give you your space?

CLIENT: Yeah, she’ll kind of give me space and be like, “Well, you know, you didn’t seem like you really even wanted to speak with me, because you’re kind of I don’t know what. You just seem kind of down and in a foul mood, whatever.” And I’m like, “Yeah, I know. I kind of recognize that. I’m not sure really why, but I [kind of] (ph) really snap out of it, like, (snaps fingers) just quick like that.” Which I’d like to be able to just (chuckles), you know, something (ph) maybe because I’m (inaudible 15:55). Well, that’s fine. And just let go. Which I think I need to (pause) kind of treat this more like we did with the other, on the thoughts. You know, where…

THERAPIST: Yeah. And in addition, we want to do it in order to understand what drives it. If you let go of it, there should be some we would suspect there’d be some kind of angst about that. Like, the part of you that thinks it’s important to do that. That’s what we’re trying to get a hold of. See if we can uncover and communicate with, understand, listen to the part of you that is driving that behavior. And we don’t have a hold of him yet. If we kind of do that things that would provoke him. Like, “Dude, she just made that innuendo, and you can’t let that one go.” You know, that’s the part we’re looking for, to see what he might say. It’s the threat. I’m going to suspect it has something to do with separation. So, you know, so I’m not consciously aware.

That’s what happens with panic disorder sometimes. When we get some people who have panic disorder, and as they start to fall asleep, they’ll panic, because, you know, they might have a kind of a twitch of an arm or something. That tends to happen as you start relaxing. And then all of sudden, there’s a loss of control at that moment (inaudible 17:28) understand it. Or if people who have relaxation-induced panic, because the observing ego so the working memory, the thoughts that are going on at any particular moment, there’s a central executive and phonological (ph) loop is talking, and visual (inaudible 17:49) sketchpad is an (inaudible 17:52). I mean, is imagery and so forth. So in relaxation, the observing ego floats away and it (ph) stops tracking for a moment. That’s kind of why it’s so comfortable for people. Somebody with panic disorder needs to be in control at that moment. And as soon as they have the awareness that their awareness has gone away, they freak out. I mean, it’s written in the literature, having panic attacks at that moment. So there’s something in anxiety disorder around letting go of control. So that’s why I would go in that I’d be suspicious in that particular direction. That may not be it at all, but (crosstalk 18:28).

CLIENT: I had another example I wrote down. It wasn’t (pause) directly related to what we talked about. Well, I think it kind of goes back to when there’s something that, like, I would even lose control over change, where so we have a flight to Georgia for Christmas, and we’re coming back on the third of January. And she e-mailed the other day and said, “Oh, gosh. My professor just said we have to be back on the second for class. What are we going to do?” And immediately, I was kind of like, “Oh, shit.” You know, I wasn’t really mad at her necessarily, but I was just like, “Oh, crap. I have to get this flight changed. It costs so much money.” And I was expecting her to, you know, be upset about needing me to go change it and all this and the other. And I e-mail her back, and I was like, “Okay, well I’m (inaudible 19:18). I don’t want to have to change this again.”

And, you know, later, she was like, “I don’t know why you’d be upset.” She was like, “I’m your wife. We’ll figure this out. It’s no big deal.” I’m like, “Okay, yeah, you’re right.” I said, “I know. I don’t want to have to call the airlines again, because I already did it one time and it was a big hassle. And, you know, it costs a bunch of money. And I don’t want you to be mad if you have to miss class.” And, you know, it was kind of like this unneeded loss of control. I think that’s what it kind of felt like.

THERAPIST: It would make sense to me that you’d be bothered about that. Are you saying, “Why did I get bothered [by that] (ph)?”

CLIENT: Well, I think I just it bothered me for longer than just that little crap moment. It was like I kind of got (pause) almost frustrated for, like, the rest of the day just thinking about like, oh crap, you know.

THERAPIST: It’s going to be another 300 dollars.

CLIENT: 300 hundred dollars. And she didn’t come home [be like] (ph), “We have to get this changed.” I’m like, “Okay. Well, I’m going to call the airlines again.” And she was like, “No, that’s fine. Just -” She’s like, “Don’t even worry about it. I’ll tell my professor I’m going to miss that morning. It’s no big deal.” So that was kind of like -

THERAPIST: Okay, well, you didn’t tell me that. (Laughter)

CLIENT: I was like, “You know what? That’s right.” (Laughter)

THERAPIST: You could have told me though. I wouldn’t have been upset all day if you’d told me that the option was to go ahead and keep the schedule that we had. So when she said that, then you were -

CLIENT: I was like, “Yeah, you know, you’re right.”

THERAPIST: But you were missing some information. You didn’t know that you had that option, and it is pain in the neck to they can really gouge you. I mean, 150 dollars each to change a flight. And then, whatever the new cost of the flight is, if it’s gone up.

CLIENT: Exactly, yeah.

THERAPIST: So that makes sense. You know, that’s stressful.

CLIENT: But maybe that’s not a maybe that’s more of a normal example, but…

THERAPIST: Well, I mean, maybe it’s an normal example, but it is an example of you getting on yourself or having the wrong reaction or something. So that’s the only I mean, that’s the reason it’s a useful example to say out loud here. So we got that homework assignment. Does that make sense, to be tracking some of that? And does it happen frequently enough that it would actually occur in the next couple three weeks? This whole thing around her exaggerating one direction or another.

CLIENT: Yeah. I probably could set it up for maybe three weeks.

THERAPIST: Is it I’m just saying, does it feel like it will come up enough to take a look at it?

CLIENT: At least a few times a week, I’ll have some little weird mood shift. And then, like, the next day, I’m like, “God (ph), what was going on yesterday? Why would I even this is silly. Like, I don’t want to live in, like, the [dump line] (ph) all the time, you know. I’d rather be more uplifted.”

THERAPIST: It drags on you. It weighed on you.

CLIENT: I think -

THERAPIST: And that’s why we’re talking about it. It’s like (inaudible 22:20) doesn’t totally understand. Doesn’t make sense to me. And it’s hurting me. And I don’t like projecting it on to her and -

CLIENT: I think it’s almost like if I don’t think she’s being uplifting, then I feel like I’m being really down lifted, when she just her emotions might be just (inaudible 22:40). You know, she’s not being super if I don’t feel like she’s being really uplifting, I feel like she’s being almost suppressing, and then I kind of get hanging the head when -

THERAPIST: Right. So it sounds a little symbiotic too as, you know, it takes two of us to be a whole me.

CLIENT: Yeah. That’s kind of weird.

THERAPIST: So that’s discomforting because, like, you know, I met you, and opposites attract. And it was great to, you know, be joined with you. And now I’m going I’m joining too tightly with you. There’s some parts that are joining that really should not be joining, so to speak. Does that am I saying that in a way you can imagine, even if it’s not the most articulate thing (ph)?

CLIENT: No, I know what you mean, because that’s my original when I wrote it down, I was like, “My mood and emotions are way too heavily swayed by my perception of her emotions or mood.”

THERAPIST: And that’s sort of (inaudible 23:37) separation and individuation, that somehow I have gotten a little more meshed than is healthy for us. That’s not my judgment that’s your judgment, [I think] (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah, that’s what -

THERAPIST: But I’d probably judge [the same thing] (ph).

CLIENT: (Laughter) Well, that’s good that I wasn’t completely off. So (pause) homework assignment, I guess, is we talked about something like that comes up, where normally I would (inaudible 24:05) in the dumps, I would just not even go into that. Just kind of let it go.

THERAPIST: Well, it’s the piece around trying to figure it out is that you want to that’s the main piece of homework that I was suggesting to you. As soon as I go, “Why does she [want to] (ph) what’s (ph) going on with that?” To be able to step back and go, “Oh, okay. This is one of these moments. I’m not going to figure that out.” Now, who knows what will happen to you going into the dumps, because you may still go into the dumps. Because I’m assuming you posed the question see (ph), I’m a little concerned about how I’ve structured the homework with you, because you don’t answer the question anyway. You just pretty much pose it like, “Why is this happening?” which I think means, “This shouldn’t be happening.”

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s almost like I’m thinking -

THERAPIST: This is wrong.

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s almost like I’m thinking too, like, “Why is she (pause) why did she either not give or give that reaction? I would have expected that she -

THERAPIST: That shouldn’t have happened. That was not right. So trying to figure out why she did it is not the core piece here. Because you might go, “Boy, you know, why?” But I’m thinking it’s a rhetorical question not a curious question. You don’t then start analyzing. Like, somebody with OCD might go, “Okay, did I say that wrong at work, at the meeting at work today? Let me mentally review it. I need to do a mental checking on it.” So it’s not that. So when you go when you say it to me, why did that happen, it’s more rhetorical. It’s done at that point. You’ve already made a decision that this shouldn’t be happening. [00:25:58]

CLIENT: Right. It’s already been made and I don’t go down the I don’t replay.

THERAPIST: And I should have a I should have a particular response to it. And my emotional response should be unhappy or disappointed. So what is the low (ph) mood? Is it what do you think do you think it represents disappointment? What is it that that part of you is saying to you that brings you into the low place? Is it enough to say this isn’t right? Seems like there’s another tagline that goes after that. This is wrong. Therefore, (pause) we’re going to hell in a hand basket. I mean, I…

CLIENT: Yeah, I don’t know. It’s like I just kind of get -

THERAPIST: You don’t get pissed off. You could say, “This is wrong,” and you get mad. You could escalate. It could be more like personality of OC personality disorder, if there is one.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don’t really get mad. I just kind of, like (inaudible 27:07), you know, like, “Dammit, why did she (inaudible 27:11)? She must be mad or something.” So I’m just kind of like -

THERAPIST: What was the “dammit” for?

CLIENT: I don’t know. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: Because a dammit’s mad. I mean, it’s, like it’s more like, “Drat, why did that happen?” (Crosstalk 27:25)

CLIENT: I don’t know if it’s, like, mad. But, I mean, I think it’s just, like, sometimes I feel, like, this little frustration of it’s almost like agitated or is it irritated or agitated?

THERAPIST: Well, irritated is like annoyed. Agitated is like stinting. More physically. It’s more like energy is agitation. Irritation is more of a mood, an angry (ph) or mad mood.

CLIENT: I don’t know if it’s necessarily mad, other than it’s like I just kind of sulk. And I don’t know if I’m expecting her to be like -

THERAPIST: It’s like something got spoiled by that. What got spoiled?

CLIENT: I don’t know. (Pause) That’s a good question.

THERAPIST: So that’s why I was questioning a little bit the homework assignment. I was like, well (ph) this isn’t I’m asking him to do something that’s not going to give us any information, because you really don’t go tracking it. You may stay preoccupied with it a little bit, but, you know, (inaudible 28:33) a whole intervention around that, just letting it go. But you’re going to rapidly get a mood. It’s going to just show. So to try to do something consciously at that moment, I think you’re just going to get (inaudible 28:50).

CLIENT: When I was driving here, I kind of laughed at myself. I was like, “I think honestly what I need, I just need an attitude adjustment sometimes. Like, I just need to have a different outlook on, like, everything she says or does doesn’t have to seem like it sucks to me. Like, she hardly ever really ever gets mad. It’s almost like I just need an attitude adjustment and be like “

THERAPIST: But, you know, that’s all I think about, how to do attitude adjustments. When you say that, it’s like everything I think about is how to alter perception on this. Now, when we have to be careful around that invitation to have an attitude adjustment, because you quickly go to, “What the hell’s wrong with me, that I’m doing that?” So that also is an attitude. So there’s the compassion coming in. It’s like, “Okay, well that’s happening.” Right. But what do we do when the mood shows up? So the event occurs. You rapidly fall into the hole for a bit. Now, this would happen equally, whether it’s her not having the exuberance and her (pause) on both sides of it?

CLIENT: Kind of, yeah.

THERAPIST: Right. So it happens quickly. And how would you want to respond? How would you want to adjust your attitude about that (inaudible 30:24) all of a sudden sinking?

CLIENT: I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Make a guess?

CLIENT: I don’t want to sink. I mean -

THERAPIST: Good luck with that. (Laughter) I think it happens automatically. That’s what I’m saying.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think it does.

THERAPIST: It happens automatically, so to go and consciously try to keep myself from sinking is going to be a setup to cause more trouble for everything (ph). Let’s presuppose the sinking experience occurs. How do you want to response to that? What would be an attitude adjustment at that moment?

CLIENT: Just give self-compassion.

THERAPIST: And how would that look in that moment?

CLIENT: [That would be] (ph) just accepting the feeling you just had and being like, “So what?”

THERAPIST: Okay, so accepting. What does accepting mean? [I’m sorry to put a fine point on it] (ph).

CLIENT: I guess accepting that my mood just went south.

THERAPIST: Okay. So it’s okay with me that my mood and then you said, “So what.” What does that mean?

CLIENT: Not, like, thinking, like, self-punishing. Like, “Oh gosh, here we go again. I just, you know, got affected by something she said. Now I’m going to be slouchy (ph) for a while,” or, you know.

THERAPIST: Okay, good. So the general principle, one of the general principles you and I are working on is I’m not going to I’m not changing so much what suddenly happens, but I’m changing my response to what suddenly happens. So suddenly, I’m going, “Why is she doing that?” Or, “Why’d that happen?” I’m not going to change that. That’s automatic. That’s coming what we would say is it’s unconsciously immediate. So I can’t consciously control something that is unconsciously immediate. It’s going to show up too quickly to intervene. So the next thing, the only next thing I can do, is change my response to it. So when I go, “Oh, why is she having that? Oh, okay. Well then, I can notice that I, you know, notice that I just said that, asked that question to myself.” That’s an intervention. Noticing it is an intervention, because it separates you from it, right. You’re not longer a hundred percent the actor in the drama. There’s a part of you that’s going to, “Oh, I just had that. Oh, there’s that reaction.” [00:33:09]

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, I think, in the past, I wouldn’t even (pause) I didn’t really have I didn’t really notice that I was getting so slumped. It was almost just like a something triggered it, then it went boom.

THERAPIST: Yeah. But you’re noticing it now, right?

CLIENT: Yeah, now I’m noticing, like, “No, that’s silly. I mean, that’s just “

THERAPIST: And then you make a judgment?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Say, “That’s silly. I wouldn’t be doing that.”

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: All right, so at least we got so the best of your ability, as soon as you can notice that you’re posing that rhetorical question, you want to step back and go, “Oh, there it is. Oh, that just happened.” And then we, you and I, want to consider that an intervention, because I have separated from it. It’s no longer dominating me because I have a perspective. I’ve altered my perception to have an observer of this. It doesn’t much else than notice it, so there’s the observer. And then I can add to it, which is, you know, not just a neutral observer, but I can have a supportive observer. Fine. Fine, I just (inaudible 34:27) interesting. I just had that reaction. Fine.” And then if you slide into that slump. “Oh, boy, there’s that. Noticing the question didn’t keep me from getting in here, did it? Okay, well there I go. I’m in that space.” This is going to be the harder one. Because when you’re in a mood, you don’t want to do anything else. (Laughter) It’s hard to get a perspective. In some way (inaudible 34:59). Because you have been good enough to say it to her when she calls you on it.

“Boy, I seem to I don’t know what’s going on, you know. Okay, honey. I’ll give you a little time,” right. You don’t get to do that so easily, because you’re inside your skin. So you don’t get to go, “Okay, well I’ll wander off,” right. So when you notice yourself sinking, you want to be able to step back. Have some, even it’s only four percent of you, go, (sighs) “There it is again.” And then we were just talking about, how can I be compassionate toward myself at that moment? And I was a little concerned about where you went next. You were going like, “Oh, well,” or something. So you want to abandon yourself at that point. What do you think would be a good way to take care of yourself in those (inaudible 35:56) they last a half hour or a half day. Do you know?

CLIENT: Do I know what? How to -

THERAPIST: What helps. Have you ever found the best way to support yourself when you’re in a slump? (Pause) Do you go off by yourself? Do you go change your focus of attention? Do you…

CLIENT: It’s almost like…

THERAPIST: Do you just keep moving, and it just colors (ph) everything?

CLIENT: It’s almost like this weird thing where I want her to notice I’m kind of, like, mopey. And then she’s like, “Well, what’s wrong?” And I’m like, “Well, you know, it’s kind of that thing you did or said.” It’s almost like I need that.

THERAPIST: Oh, so this is the other piece I didn’t realize that you were waiting for. So this is news to me. So there’s another piece of it?

CLIENT: Yeah (crosstalk 36:52) she’s like -

THERAPIST: Connecting back to her.

CLIENT: And then she’s like, “Well, what’s wrong?” “Well, you know, I went out and got all these groceries. And I came home, and I thought you’d maybe help me put them away. But, you know, you’re working on something else. I thought you’d maybe at least offer.” “Well, gee, I didn’t know.” “Oh, that’s okay,” you know. Then it’s like I’m almost (pause) relieved.

THERAPIST: And what bought the relief?

CLIENT: Her noticing that was kind of -

THERAPIST: Ah.

CLIENT: the mopester, and then asking why. I’d be like, “Well.” But that gets annoying because, you know.

THERAPIST: I can imagine that would be annoying. (Laughter) Okay, so that’s the typical pattern then?

CLIENT: Yeah, I would say that’s yeah.

THERAPIST: You moping till you get [you have to kind of hang out] (ph) with her somehow. They never see it, right? Or hope that she comes to find you. So you do so you play hide and seek?

CLIENT: Kind of.

THERAPIST: Interesting. Works pretty well?

CLIENT: No, not really. I mean -

THERAPIST: I mean, well, you got your needs met.

CLIENT: I mean…

THERAPIST: [She does it] (ph).

CLIENT: It annoys me, when I’m doing it. I’m sure it annoys her too, but…

THERAPIST: But there’s some need that gets satisfied that wasn’t getting satisfied until she notices your (ph) wanting to…

CLIENT: It’s almost like I just need to have I don’t know if this is a good idea, but I would tell her if she notices me in a slump, just to not even ask me what’s going on (laughter) because then I’ll never get that satisfied, you know, kind of like with the other thoughts. If you don’t feed the monster, you’re not going to [go down that] (ph).

THERAPIST: Yeah, and that’s not a bad thing to do. However, we want to make sure we’re not putting the work on her shoulders, which is, “I don’t have any choice here. I’m just going to come up like a sad puppy. But don’t fall for it,” you know. So how are you going to participate then, if you’re going to ask her to not you’re going to have her not say what’s wrong?

CLIENT: I don’t know. I’m just trying to think of -

THERAPIST: Well, no. I’m just saying. I’m not correcting you I’m just saying about (ph) what you were saying. Well, what if I ask her not to, what? Not to ask me what’s wrong?

CLIENT: I guess. (Pause) I’m just trying to think how I can get past that wanting to be asked about whatever is, you know.

THERAPIST: So you can supersede it, which is that you can go to her and say, “Hey, I got something going on with something you did, and I ain’t telling you what it was. And I got myself in a slump, and I’m going to get myself out of this slump (inaudible 39:46) I’m just cluing you in about it, okay. So don’t be like don’t try doing your typical “

CLIENT: Is that what you were saying is good for my -

THERAPIST: I’m talking out loud about that. That would be a way to do it. You can supersede it, which is that you go to her in the event, and go, “Hey, I got something going on.” So you can still let her know you got something going on.” See, you can kind of put the beast on a tie (ph), so to speak. So one of the expressions they use is (inaudible 40:21), which means we’re going to give it some of what it wants, and withhold some of what it wants. So if we go to her, now you got her attention, and you’re conveying to her that something’s not right, but you’re asking her. You’re telling her, “I’m not going to tell you what happened. I don’t want any reassurance from you. I am in kind of a slump, so I’m going to if you notice that, it may take me a little while to get out of it, but…” Something like that. Is that conceivable to do?

CLIENT: Yeah. I wish there was a way, I mean, I could (pause) figure it out without involving her. But, I mean, she doesn’t mind to be involved because she knows I’m…

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I just wish there was a way I could not even bother her with the whatever.

THERAPIST: But maybe it’s not a bother. Because it’s therapeutic. You’re saying (inaudible 41:24) you can talk to her (inaudible 41:25), “Let me tell you what Reynolds and I were talking about.” And you can say, “This is what I’m going to try. I don’t know if it will work.” And then she feels like, “Oh, well, that thing that he does that’s irritating as hell to me, he’s starting to work on it. I’m all in. Man (ph), whatever I can do to help him stop doing that shit, I’m on board. So there’s a chance that she would be okay with that.

CLIENT: Oh yeah, yeah. She’d totally be fine with it.

THERAPIST: And so, what you can say is, “There may be times in which I’ll do that with you.” And if you want to try to not involve her sometimes, then that would be okay. We’re messing with it just talking about it here. So, you know, if you find other ways to mess with it, that’ll be okay too.

CLIENT: I just wonder if there’s another alternative to whenever I got in whatever mood, after, you know, I notice it and then, you know, bringing myself down for getting in that, if there’s another besides saying, “Hey, I just kind of got into…”

THERAPIST: Yeah, however. What if what you need is attention? Just attention. And you’ve got this twisted way that you’re getting it. And so now, we’ll still get you the attention. “Hey, honey.”

CLIENT: That is kind of funny because I -

THERAPIST: “There’s something going on. I’m [going to] (ph) work on it.”

CLIENT: I do think that I’m a very attention-seeking individual from her. Like, I’m always wanting to sit next to her on the couch or have my arm around her. And she’s always like, “Well, I’m giving you attention.” I think it is kind of the (laughter) backassward way of -

THERAPIST: Right. And so, I think there’s a lot to be said. I mean, I’ve done so many groups in my career that I see it all the time in groups and family structures and so forth, that people will act out, do all kinds of things. When really, what they need to do is raise their hand and say, “I need some attention.” And I’ve literally had people do that sometimes, you know. They just circumvent their acting out and just go, “I need some attention,” you know, or, “I need a hug.” [00:43:36]

CLIENT: I think I sometimes almost irritate her in a funny way, I think, just to get some attention sometimes. (Laughter) Not thinking about it, you know.

THERAPIST: Right. And so that’s why I’m saying to you you were saying, “Well, I hate to kind of use her.” But in reality, you’re also telling me, you know, “I’m wanting things from her all the time anyway.” So we go, you know, kind of a cleaner route. We go up a couple levels of abstraction and think, be suspicious that maybe it has to do with attention. So let’s go right to it, and say, hey, you know, whatever. And all these other things you’re talking about, even to have that expression, that’d be a funny thing to ask her for, right, is just to say, you know. And [just start going inside] (ph). If you can start having that awareness of, “Oh, I’m doing it again. I think I’m ready to tease or I’m ready to fill in the blank.” Instead you go, “Hey, honey. I need some attention.” (Laughter) It could be a little joke, a running joke that you have for a long time. You go, “Yeah, I can remember when he started saying he just went right to it and said, ‘Honey, I just need some attention.’ You know, and I said, ‘Well, how would you like it?’ And he said, ‘Well, this is good. I like this. Okay. So how about hold my hand?’“ You know, see where it goes.

CLIENT: It’s kind of funny because I think that kind of comes back to it going in spurts, as where if we just spend a lot of time together on a weekend, maybe doing something fun, I’ll feel almost, like, satisfied for X number of days. And then she gets really busy studying, going to school. We see each other in passing. It’s like I need this thing, and then anything little thing, I kind of like (humming). “Well, what’s wrong?” “Well, I need some attention.” [00:45:32]

THERAPIST: Yeah, okay.

CLIENT: So I just try to make it more -

THERAPIST: Right. So let’s act as though that’s it, and just see what that brings us, what it offers. And you’ll either find out whether that’s satisfying or it’s not. But let’s act as though that’s it and put energy towards, “Let me see if I can be more you know, even if I’m feeling impish (ph). You know, how do I catch it and say -” And I think you ought to tell her upfront that that’s exactly what you’re going to do, and then it will be some kind of expression, like, “Honey, I’m needing some attention right now.” And what that means is I got something going on. I’m going to try to be more straightforward. We’ll (ph) stop, but how would you like to receive the attention? What kind of attention would you like? How would you like it delivered?

CLIENT: Are you asking, like, how I should tell her?

THERAPIST: No, I’m asking you what kind. How would you like what attention do you want to receive? Do you want it to be physical? Do you want it to be (pause) just touch? I mean, do you want to be something verbal or you want it to be eye contact? You want it to be -

CLIENT: I think, like, a little, like, combination of just being, like, almost recognized. Like there’s the eye contact. The physical presence of, “Okay. I’m, like, I’m here with you right now. (inaudible 47:00) feel like I’ve got some attention.”

THERAPIST: Yeah. And so, and you can play around with that. You can say, “Well, let’s just, you know. What you been doing the last half hour?” You know, just let her talk to you a little bit or tell her something, where you just have a little exchange, oral exchange (inaudible 47:19) related to sex. (Laughter) Just, you know, in the exchange, you’ll receive the attention because you’re going to be hearing her tone of voice and looking at her eyes. She’s going to respond to you and things, and that’ll so it’s fine to create a context within which you receive it. Like, “Hey honey, I want to release a little tension right now.” Okay. And then you just chat even, or get a hug. You can just try it out physically. You could ask her to say something sweet to you.

CLIENT: Yeah. It is interesting [the way] (ph) you talk about the different types, because I feel like sometimes I need the emotional attention. Sometimes it’s the intimate. And it kind of just -

THERAPIST: Hey, honey, remind me why you like me.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Laughter) And then it’s funny because I think back and it’s like, yeah, I feel like that sometimes the intimate attention will kind of keep my engine running for three, four days, and I feel like I’ve gotten attention.

THERAPIST: Yeah, so let’s be more efficient at it, right. Let’s increase the octane of it because, you know, if you start mixing sand in there with your gasoline. Well, let’s not mix too many metaphors. (Laughter) So, okay.

CLIENT: All right. So I think that’s good. I think I learned some stuff. Well, I think you helped me learn some -

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