TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Good morning! Come on in. (pause) So, I haven't worked with that insurance before, but I've worked with it from other schools, and it's usually very good. They are actually usually quite reliable.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: And you're not going to have a session limit, because session limits are for some diagnoses and not for others. I'm just diagnosing you with dysthymia, which is kind of like a low-grade depression, and there is no session limits for that.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So, I think your insurance will be quite good and then, as I said, with the tape recordings, I could just charge you $10 a session. [00:01:10]

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Does that sound good?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Also, once we figure out, I can just sort of... because you paid me then too much, so I'll reimburse you the money, okay?

CLIENT: Okay. (pause) So good finally to get stuff done! (chuckles). I feel like I finally have time to take care of stuff that's been lying around for months now. (chuckles).

I guess I should talk about my mom. I saw her... when was it, yesterday? Yeah, the day before, Wednesday? It was kind of very, very bad. (chuckles) We met for lunch in the square. She's had this cold and cough, and she's just very down. I think she plays on my pity. Like, she exudes pathos (chuckles), you know? It's just like... it's terrible. [00:02:25]

Like, after I saw her walk away, I just stood there, crying and weeping (chuckles) in the middle of the square, you know? She's having to take care of a lot of stuff, so like, I have to go take care of unemployment, and I have to take care of this and that, and I'm just running from once place to the other. And like her mouth was, you know, quivering, as she's talking, like she's about to cry. She gets this, like, pathetic smile; she's like a little lamb. That's the attitude that she has, but... [00:03:12]

Yeah, it's like her narratives that have abandoned her, you know? I just feel so terrible about that. But I think I'm doing better, because, like as soon as I saw her leave, I started crying and that was... Like, earlier, I would just, like, pick up the phone and call, like pull my hair out or something, or just tell him, you know, this is a big mistake (inaudible at 00:03:40) move back in together, but... I, you know, walked around, calmed down, was able to work and (later then he began to talk down, that's what like, for no one ph? at 00:3:55).

I want her to be loved, to be strong and what not, but... Yeah, I just wish that she would, like, you know, see that I have... I mean, yeah, I don't want to abandon her, and that's the reason why, like, we moved in together when I was going to school in Ohio, and then again in D.C. You know, so, there was just (inaudible at 00:04:32), as well as that, "Oh, you know, it's because if you that I've lost... that I haven't been able to become a teacher."

She's kind of mellowed down a lot, a little bit, because when I was a child, like she would actually say that "I lost this job because of you," you know? Like, and she lost like a string of jobs when I was growing up in Nepal, like she was a teacher and... Like one time, I remember something happened, some incident, but like some student lost her book bag and I was accused of theft, although some other child had taken it, or that first child had just, you know, lost the book bag of her own accord. But I got accused, and the principal was mad, and my mom was defending me and got upset and just left that job, and then later said, "It's because of you that I left that job," you know? So she used to say that, and I would feel like, bad about it because, you know, a) you know, we weren't really well off anyways, and you know... So, I made her lose a job, that's terrible and b) it's terrible to be accused of something like that. [00:05:53]

And here, like, in the U.S., I am very aware that I keep uprooting her, although now, I'm like, wait a second, I'm uprooting her because she wants to live with me, you know, because she feels better apparently; maybe not, who knows, when we lived together, you know? So, even if I uprooted her from Orlando to Ohio to D.C, it's so that, you know, we can be a family, you know? [00:06:31]

Now that I want some space of my own, it's like, "You abandon me," you know? She actually, I don't know if I told you this, but she actually said that, like, over the phone. She was joking or something and, we were talking about, you know, this new living arrangement. She's like, "Yeah, I hear you and (Chris sp?) are at least close by, but you guys just dumped me in Cheshire on the way (to work ph? at 00:06:54)." (chuckles) I mean, it's like, yeah I know...

But like, so yet, she has this close friend, this woman we met in Orlando. Our situation is kind of parallel, because she divorced her husband, like really, really early, like... She's a little messed up, too because, like, apparently he didn't come to the daughter's first birthday. They had their daughter, like, ten years after their marriage, like, after their wedding, then. So it was like they waited for a long time until they had this child, and he doesn't come to the birthday party on time. She got, ooo, pissed; like, this woman has anger issues, like she gets very, very, VERY angry. [00:07:40]

So they split up, and this and that, and he cut off the electricity, and this and that... but then since then, she's been working. She works two jobs, just working the cash register. She's been doing this for, I don't know, 30 years now or more. Actually, she owns two homes and she's put her daughter through college. Her daughter is very attached to her, like, not bad; I mean, you know, she's born and brought up here. But then, three years ago, she got married, the daughter got married, and then moved to Alabama. [00:08:30]

So even though she lived with her mother all through her life, I mean she had a connection with her dad, but, you know, she was devoted to her mother; but then she moved! She moved, you know, far away to Alabama. I wouldn't do that, you know. I wouldn't just get married and leave, although traditionally, that's what you're supposed to do. And, in modern life, also (chuckles) pretty much supposed to, you know, leave the nest.

I haven't, you know; and I took the step reluctantly, but you know, for the right reasons. But, I mean, we see each other, like, every week. You know, its... I don't know, I just hate to hear that I've abandoned her and I hate to watch her, like, walk around and... (sighs) you know, like she's, you know, 90 or something! (laughs). You know? And be so miserable, you know? [00:09:25]

I cannot even bear to speak to her; like, I call her, like I could just call her and like her voice is that, you know... I know she's got a cold and everything, and I gave her, brought her medicine, but... It's like, you know, it adds, this pathos and adds this... That cold, the combination is just like lethal (chuckles). I cannot take that guilt, so... I don't know... [00:10:05]

THERAPIST: Lethal is pretty bad.

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: Lethal is pretty bad!

CLIENT: (chuckles) It's caustic! I just feel like (becoming into a puddle ph?) and just disappearing! I really cannot see her, or even hear her when she's like that. I don't' know...

It's definitely paralyzing, and earlier it would paralyze me for much longer, for like hours and all that. And you know, obviously, cloud my judgment and I would base all of my decisions on that. But, I mean, like, so like, in Orlando... So I graduated college and so then I graduated from college, my family just broke apart; that's another whole story. [00:11:06]

But, I was living with a roommate, and then my mom came to live with me. She, you know, stayed with us first, then that made my relationship with my roommate very, very bad. You know, we just stopped talking, it was very bad. But then... so after the lease was done, I moved in with my mom. We were living together for I don't know, like a year and then I met (Chris sp?), and (Chris sp?) was starting a PhD. So at the time, I was, I don't know what, so I moved with him because I had applied to the graduate schools and got accepted to Columbia, but I deferred that for a year because, just right at that time, (Chris's sp?) parents had come. They were like, you know, I think I mentioned this (chuckles), his mom is very, very, very strong; she's like, you know, school and luxury with his dad and at that time we were going through financial issues. [00:12:13]

So, they were also, you know, they were running around recommending, you know, not being wasteful and stuff, so I was like, "Well, I guess I could move in with Chris." And I was miserable that year, but, because, you know, I didn't have any... bad places. Cambridge has no jobs for, like computer people and stuff. I looked and looked, but...

So I was staying away from mom, I remember crying, like God, like, I cried so much that night when, you know, we packed up the van. The next morning, we were driving from Orlando to Cambridge; that whole night, I didn't sleep. I just cried the whole night. (chuckles) It was like, you know, eight hours of crying, just because I saw my mom that night for dinner and she looked, she was trying to hold herself up together, but she was breaking apart. And I was just like, "What the h*** am I doing?" I was horribly, horribly guilty. [00:13:18]

And you know, then we would talk and stuff on the phone. At the end of that year, she said, "Okay, don't freak out, but I have some news. I crashed my car. And I lost my job." (chuckles) So she lost her job and crashed her car, so I thought, "Okay, this is pretty bad." And then I just was so concerned at that point. I was like, I cannot, you know, be so far away from her and, you know? But by that time, I had gone to Ohio and looked for apartments and I'd found a place in Columbus. Then my mom's call came, and so I had to go back to that woman and say, "Can we please (chuckles) do something, because like, I need to live with my mom," and she got very, very pissed, you know? [00:14:15]

But then, so I had to look again, and look for a bigger place, so that, you know, she and I could live together. Then I had to find a full-time job so I could, you know, pay the rent and everything because otherwise... I mean, I couldn't have afforded to live... like, earlier, the plan was to live, to go to Columbia and maybe work part-time and... But then I had to change my plan and find a full-time job and a place to live with her. So yeah, I'm trying, I don't know what I'm... I'm just battling (chuckles).

THERAPIST: It sounds like her losing her job and crashing her car was very convenient for her.

CLIENT: Well, don't be harsh on her! (laughs) I mean, I don't think she planned to do that, I mean, I think she would have liked to, you know, be responsible. [00:15:05]

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: I think she wants to be responsible. I mean, I just assume that people, and her specifically, she does want to be, like... She doesn't want to burden me, and I think she said, I mean she says that, you know?

THERAPIST: So, I mean, do you feel she's incompetent, then? I mean, either she wants to burden you or she's incompetent.

CLIENT: Well, people are at all levels. I mean, I could be incompetent, too, you know? Like... Yeah, I mean, none of us is perfect, right? (chuckles) Yeah, I mean...

THERAPIST: But you're competent to take care of yourself, and you're saying she isn't.

CLIENT: Yeah... I mean, I wonder, like, how much of it is, you know, like, being in a new country when you're, you know, older versus your... I don't know if it's something psychological or what it is, really. [00:16:04]

THERAPIST: Like your friend's mother?

CLIENT: Well, they're so different, though, right? I mean, I know, maybe it's not fair to compare the friend's mom with my mom, you know? I was completely like... she's so strong, she's so strong-willed. I mean, I think it's almost to a, her fault, that she's so strong-willed. But yeah, I mean, she's never a figure of pathos. She's like, she's just so strong and she's older than my mom and she's quite worn down because of this kind of a job, you know? Like, she's had knee replacement surgeries, and this and that, and like her feet ache all the time, and she has diabetes; but she lives on her own, like every morning, you know, she makes her coffee and she's out the door, you know?

And she's, she wears the weirdest clothes (chuckles), you know? But when she's happy and she... You know, she opens her mouth, she can sing, like... She is such a beautiful singer, you know? There is no room for pathos in that, in that narrative. And I just admire that so much. I just hate that, like, my family has a victim's narrative. I just hate it! (chuckles) I mean, it's useful to a point; I don't know, I haven't, you know, done studies on such things, but... I mean, what do you think? Like, is it useful (chuckles) or does it debilitate, you know? [00:17:40]

THERAPIST: Are you talking about vic... Well, how would it be useful? What would it be useful for?

CLIENT: Well, I was thinking like more like politically and historically. Like, you know, if you have, like, had something, say, (this is something that I'm working on in my novel), like, the partition, where you know, like, millions of people got displaced. So they can have a narrative that... Yeah, they were wronged by history and by their leaders, and by their neighbors. So, it's fine to say that, you know, we were wronged; don't do this sort of thing again, you know? Don't split a country like this (chuckles). But after that, I don't know, like on an individual level, how useful that narrative is, you know? [00:18:35]

I mean, you were wronged, you know, we just, we put our hands up, we cannot, you know, make this right. We cannot make X, Y, and Z right because it's out of our control, everything is out of our control, you know? I don't know... that just makes you crazy! (chuckles) I have to stop seeing, I have to stop doing that. Just like, stop looking at... to see, whether you're working on a theory (chuckles) everything you see better fit into that, you know? So I have to stop saying that, "Oh, this is just a... every person who suffered partition and, you know, their progeny, they feel this way." I don't think so (chuckles). [00:19:25]

THERAPIST: What is your theory about your mother's difficulties?

CLIENT: Well, partly that she's an invalid and she came here at a later date, at a later age, so it's because of that that she finds things difficult. But then, that's not true because she does, she had to conquer so many things. She has... like in Ohio. So, I had no time, you know? I basically, like, provided. It was the rent and, you know, I was there living with her, but... She figured out all the bus routes, and she would, you know, go everywhere on her own on the bus, on the train. She figured that out herself. [00:20:10]

That's no small feat, you know? Like, I wish she would look at that and feel... give herself credit, you know? And here also in D.C, you know, she figured everything out on her own, like... You know, unemployment, she's figured out on her own. Like when she got injured at work in Ohio, she did that whole... You know, like getting help from a lawyer, what not. She did all that on her own. So it's not that she cannot navigate this country at all, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. So what do you think it is?

CLIENT: I don't know. (chuckles) (pause 00:20:48 to 00:21:10) I mean, is it just me, who's like, "Oh, I wish my mother was, I don't know... Lady Diana and she turns out to be (chuckles) the pauper from (chuckles) I don't know... I don't think it's that. Do I have very high standards for her and she's... (sniffs) and she fails them or... what do I do? (pause)

THERAPIST: This is a rather odd question, but it came to my mind. Would you want to marry someone like her?

CLIENT: That's a very odd question! (laughs)

THERAPIST: It's an odd question. Well, it's an odd question because, I guess, it speaks to... what you value, or don't value.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I'll have to think about this, because, I should say I... It's not that I haven't thought in those terms, in the sense that marrying my mother, being married to my mother... I mean, I already said, you know, soul mate, so... we are in that realm (chuckles). I shouldn't say this, you're probably going to think I'm absolutely crazy, but you probably hear (chuckles) crazy stuff all the time (laughs). But, I've had this weird kind of, I don't know what you call it, complex? I don't know if you could supply the word. [00:22:53]

But I have imagined myself as my father, and in a very specific sense, like, um, when, you know, they separated, I felt like I was stepping into his shoes, just only in the times when I was dropping her off, like that. That is like enmeshed in my head, is burned in my head... like my dad, you know, getting off of work from his night job, when he did have a job. All he had was this new car, and it was not that fancy, it was like a Honda Civic or something. But he insisted that he had to get a new one, I don't know whatever.

So, you know, wearing sweat pants and sweat shirt and no matter what the weather was, and just driving my mother to her job, to whatever. And I feel like (chuckles) I do that a lot, or I used to do that a lot. And I felt like, yeah, I've replaced my dad. And then, you know, when... no, that's unrelated, but yeah. So... [00:24:08]

So taking care of her in the specific sense of driving her around has made me feel like I replaced my dad, and that this is a kind of a marriage, you know? Where she's the woman, I'm the man. So yeah, your question was actually not that out of left field. But, does that mean that I value it? No, I would say that it actually... actually it made me, and I hate saying this, it made me feel... like, it made me see just a little bit of what my dad saw, and didn't like, you know?

I mean, he was a complete... absolute, like, you know... everything about him was wrong, you know? I'm not going to... like Miss (Rodgers sp?) used to kind of (consider ph?) "Okay, he might have had some merits." But I do see that he might not have liked that she was... I don't know, I shouldn't, this is getting... this is introducing to me complexities, but... Do I value something like that... Maybe I do, maybe I don't, because, I mean, it is nice to take care of people, you know? I just wonder if it's my mom I take care of all the time, you know? [00:25:42]

I do like doing stuff for someone I have romantic feelings for, but... I feel good when I do something nice for her, but then, isn't that like, don't all of us feel nice when you do something nice? I mean, I feel nice when I do stuff for my mom, that's true. But I don't know if I... you'll have to help me out here, like, there is a difference, right? Like, between feeling good about something and, like valuing it as, like that being criteria for, like a solid friendship or relationship, right? I don't know. [00:26:32]

THERAPIST: I'm trying to underst... I mean, I think I understand the distinction.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think that was your question, though, do I value her.

THERAPIST: Yeah, the qualities or attributes or behavior you see in her, those things that you value in someone.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, like I said, I probably I derive some gratification from it, but I don't think it's a basis for, I should say, it should not be the basis. (phone rings) [00:27:07]

I don't know what I value! (laughs). I... if all the self-awareness I think I have, I am... it really actually surprises me at times when I see other people's self-awareness and then I feel like I have, like, I have no idea what I want. (chuckles) I am like the most filthiest person ever. I don't know what I value. (pause)

I do value servitude, but, I don't know if I value it to the point of, like needing it, feeling like really useless if I haven't been useful to someone. Maybe I feel that way, I don't know. (pause) [00:28:32]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean I guess maybe a different way of asking the question is, why does she take such poor care of herself; does she not know any better or does she not try?

CLIENT: I don't know. (pause) Yeah, my dad had the same complaint. (chuckles) I mean, she's probably a little psychologically damaged, too, because of her own life and baggage and what not, but... Yeah, it's rare that she dresses up nicely and it's even more rare or probably never that she cleans up the house, cleans up her surroundings and her room and stuff. (pause 00:29:27 to 00:29:51)

Yeah, I don't know, like, is she at an age where she just won't change, probably? Because... Like, I mean, this is like (be ph?). I am at the nub, the very center of what depresses me the most, at the very nub and that is my parent's marriage, that rut that they were stuck in where, you know, he's hating the way she manages the household. She's, you know, getting that feedback that he's hating and hating it and like, her not feeling the motivation to do anything to improve anything, you know? It's like this weird, you know, cycle that they were both in, of hating each other and not letting go, and hating each other for years, and him, you know again, sleeping around with everyone and subjecting her to even more torment and her not being able to let go. [00:31:04]

That's like, looking at that picture and seeing, and like remembering that apartment in Orlando just makes me want to, like, throw up! (chuckles) Just like, "Ahhh, that's terrible!" I never want to be in that place! I don't want to think about it, I don't want to find myself in such a situation, you know? (chuckles) What a waste, you know? What a waste of stuff. That in itself should be enough to make my mom want to manage the household better, but it doesn't! (laughs) It doesn't make her want to dress up nicely, you know? [00:32:03]

THERAPIST: (A lot of people ph?) feel really good to feel bad for yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah?

THERAPIST: Feel like the victim.

CLIENT: Yeah? Are you saying that's... people do that or...? Yeah. But it's so debilitating, isn't it?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: It's good to feel debilitated?

THERAPIST: I don't know if it's good! (chuckles)

CLIENT: (chuckles) I mean, I do see that because I used to be someone who would say, "It's fun to be sad," you know? Like, it's a kind of liquor, you know? It's kind of a drug to feel, to kind of cultivate that mentality of sadness, you know. It's very dangerous. I mean, if it's for some creative purpose, I mean, like, you know, lots of poets and writers, they cultivate that over-sensitivity to sadness, you know, to sorrow. You can fall off the edge and really, you know, dive into that well of sorrow, then you will not be able to get out, or do anything. [00:33:13]

I mean, you know, it's like you can have a sad character and sad things can happen to them, but you yourself cannot be sad, you know? At least for me, it doesn't work that way, because you produce utter crap, and really no one's going to want to read that. I think I don't want that.

THERAPIST: Do you think your mother is bitter about her life?

CLIENT: Oh yeah! Yeah, I mean, I think we've discussed this, like, she doesn't... her and I have always been, like, like (why did I get ph?) married and give up my bright future in, I don't know, science (chuckles). [00:34:13]

THERAPIST: Well, I think bitterness always comes... you know, breeds anger, don't you think?

CLIENT: Yeah, but she's like the most un-angry person I know, like, completely like a... very passive. She has absolutely no desires, absolut... she probably does, but you know, like, I'd be like, "What do you want to do?" (high-pitched voice) "I don't know... Whatever you want..." (regular voice) "Where do you want to go eat?" (high-pitched voice) "I don't' know..." (chuckles) She has that tone, like, (air attitude ph?). But she has no, like, nothing... she does not articulate desires the way I want her to, you know... in the simplest of things. [00:35:12]

(pause) Yeah, I'd like to think that I'm not like that (chuckles). I have very strong likes and dislikes that I don't mind (chuckles) making known. (pause 00:35:56 to 00:36:31) On the value question, you know... I think it's important, but like, I wonder if... I wonder if it's like, just like a pattern that we've fallen into, like this pattern of dependence and of need, you know? So, being creatures of habit, maybe I've just got so used to, like, being there for her; that not having that makes me feel sad or makes me scared or something. [00:37:07]

THERAPIST: What might you be scared of?

CLIENT: (pause) Of being abandoned myself! (laughs) I guess. She's not the only one who can feel abandoned, you know.

THERAPIST: Would you feel abandoned by her, or would you identify with her feeling of being abandoned?

CLIENT: It's too complicated! (laughs) Yeah, like, if she didn't need me, I'm sure there have been tons of instances where she, you know, might say, "Oh, I can go to this place by myself," and I'm like, "No, I'll drop you." Whatever. So that would make me feel, I guess... well, it makes me feel relieved. You know, it makes you feel, like, "Okay, that's one duty that I don't have to do," you know. I can sleep an hour extra, or I can, you know, read for another hour, work for another hour; that's there. [00:38:15]

(pause) Yeah, I guess I... I don't know. Yeah. This is going to take some time to think; I need some time to think about this. (chuckles) (pause) I don't know if I've felt abandoned by my mom. (pause) I don't know. (pause) I've felt angered and hurt by her, you know, whatever the things the things that she said. I've felt angry for the way she's been treated by her family and by my dad. [00:39:32]

(pause to 00:39:55) Like, when I see other people who are, like, maybe in a better relationship with their mother, like, you know, the mother is nurturing or giving, like just telling them how to cook something, for example. I feel a little, I feel like our relationship is lacking. I wish that my mom would impart wisdom to me, or you know, I wish my mom would be motherly in this way. I don't know if that's the same as feeling abandoned. [00:40:36]

THERAPIST: I don't know; I mean I guess one way to think about is, has she abandoned her role as your mother?

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, she had to mother my father, so... (chuckles)

THERAPIST: It didn't sound like she was such a good mother to your father.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Well, you described your father as feeling like nothing was taken care of.

CLIENT: Yeah, but then again, that could have been because of the back and forth, you know, like... [00:41:10]

THERAPIST: Yeah, no, I'm not saying no, but it doesn't sound like she... it didn't sound like her mothering at least went very far with him.

CLIENT: Yeah, but what she would say, you know, I had to, no matter when he woke up, I had to be up before him and make sure the breakfast was ready, or something like that, so... I mean, she's always, you know, constantly cooking for him, for me, you know. I don't know...

THERAPIST: Feels more like she was his mother and not his wife? I mean, wives cook for, especially, I imagine in their generation, wives cooked for their husbands all the time.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. But then, you know, he didn't work at all most of their marriage and she provided for both of... well, for him, for both of them, so that's not really a wife's job. I don't know. (chuckles) [00:42:07]

THERAPIST: It's interesting that you associate it with a mother's job.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So mother is supposed to work and provide?

CLIENT: Well, like in my case, the father didn't do anything that a father is supposed to do. That's when I feel abandoned, you know? Really, when I look at...

THERAPIST: ...him?

CLIENT: ...I cannot watch men with their little girls. It makes me really get very upset. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: What upsets you?

CLIENT: Well, just you know, like, I didn't... I had a dad and he didn't do any of those things, you know? That makes me, I really, I tear up (as in cry) or I just get up and walk away. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I would imagine that you're walking away a lot, because there are a lot of dads with their daughters (client chuckles) that I see, at least.

CLIENT: Well thankfully I don't! (laughs) I don't try to see... to avoid seeing that, so...

THERAPIST: That makes you sad?

CLIENT: Yeah. It makes me bitter and angry... [00:43:20]

THERAPIST: So it makes you think about what you didn't get?

CLIENT: Yeah. Because I see how beautiful that is, you know? Like... but, whatever... (chuckles)

THERAPIST: That's hard to think about.

CLIENT: Yeah... (chuckles) (pause) I try to compensate for a dad. I think boyfriends were, you know, father figures. (laughs)

THERAPIST: There is a lot of confusion about the difference between a spouse or boyfriend and a parent. Like, is your mother your mother or your spouse? Is your mother your father's mother or his spouse or just (at one point ph? 00:44:20)? Is your boyfriend your boyfriend or your father? Like there is a lot of mixing up of that.

CLIENT: Yeah, there is. (chuckles) A big (puddle ph?), a big mess. [00:44:30]

THERAPIST: The roles are not clear. Everyone's roles are muddled. Are you your mother's daughter or are you her mother?

CLIENT: Well, she introduces me as her mother to a lot of people. (laughs)

THERAPIST: She does? She introduces you as her mother?

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Wow! What is that like when she does that?

CLIENT: I feel really... everyone laughs. (laughs)

THERAPIST: What do you think? Is it funny?

CLIENT: It's funny and it's... what is the word? Absurd and...

THERAPIST: ...and truthful?

CLIENT: Yeah (chuckles). Yeah. (pause) [00:45:10]

THERAPIST: It's interesting, because the few times, at least today, where I've asked a question, or you've even commented on your own thoughts, you said, "It's too complicated." And I think you have a wonderful mind, so, how can it be too complicated? But maybe this is why; because there are a lot of complicated, confusing things.

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckles) I don't know why you said I have a wonderful mind; I definitely have a mind that keeps churning and keeps thinking too much about everything, so that's probably why it's complicated.

THERAPIST: Well, you have a mind that has a lot on it.

CLIENT: (laughs) Burdened might be a better word!

THERAPIST: It's very burdened, but that doesn't mean it's not wonderful.

CLIENT: (laughs) Well, I want to, like, sort things out slowly and make sure that I don't feel things are too complicated to even think about them and not have a resolution. This is, like, you know, really helping me in the sense that I used to be in therapy, like, right after I graduated; but that didn't help at all because... I don't really know what her title was, well, she never said anything; like absolutely nothing. And I saw her for like a year (laughs). [00:46:39]

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Yes!

THERAPIST: That's a long time! To see someone who's not very useful.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I guess I didn't know any better at that time, so... And it's funny; I feel like I made a lot of progress here because... I was surprised because last time I was here, I was like, "There is a difference between being sad and being depressed." I would not have been able to articulate even that, at that time. (chuckles) Which is weird, because you would think that, well, that's obvious!

THERAPIST: It's not that obvious, actually.

CLIENT: Yeah? [00:47:12]

THERAPIST: I don't think so.

CLIENT: Well, it took me a long time to say that I don't want to be depressed, because earlier I'd be like, Well I guess if I want to follow my passion, then that's just my lot. (chuckles) After a lot of, you know, years of struggling, I realized there is no way that, you know, I can produce anything (chuckles)...

THERAPIST: Being depressed does not facilitate creativity.

CLIENT: No, it does not.

THERAPIST: Being sad sometimes probably does.

CLIENT: It does, but then you know, again, sadness you get over.

THERAPIST: Yeah, hopefully not too much sadness. You know, (Cecelia sp?), we really need to stop for today. So let's find... it sounds like... I'm really delighted that... I'm just getting my schedule. I'm really delighted that all the insurance stuff works out and it's going to be affordable for you. That's great. [00:48:04]

CLIENT: Yeah, thank you so much for (chuckles)...

THERAPIST: Oh, it's my pleasure; I'm glad to know that. So why don't, you know, I really, since we're going to go ahead with the twice a week, I'd like to get us sort of a regular time so that I know you have it, well we both know you have it. How's that?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: So let me see... So, right now, on Monday, this Monday we have 10:15, but otherwise we have a regular time at 11:00; is that correct? (client affirms) Okay. I know you prefer a little earlier, so if the 10:15 does become available, I'll certainly let you know. (client affirms) And then when else? So, I have Wednesday, mornings or afternoons better, or does it really matter?

CLIENT: Mornings.

THERAPIST: Okay, so Wednesday... I have... Wednesday I have a few options. I have a 9:00 on Wednesday mornings and I should also have a 10:40, although I think the 9:00 looks better. (client affirms) Do you want to do 9:00? (client affirms) I messed something up, though... Okay, I'd better just change this...

So, in general, I'm just getting these settled, so in general, 9:00 is great. Next Wednesday, on Wednesdays, I may have a conflict just next Wednesday. [00:49:27]

CLIENT: So, next Wednesday at 9:00 won't work?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Just next week. After that, Wednesdays will be just fine. (client affirms) But next Wednesday, I could do a 10:40 in the morning; would that work?

CLIENT: Um, can you do Thursday or Friday?

THERAPIST: Let me take a look. Um, that's the 11th. Okay, I don't have anything in the morning, but I do have something in the afternoon.

CLIENT: How about the 12th? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Um... what are you... so Wednesday doesn't work at 10:40?

CLIENT: Um, I could make it work, but, if, not if, if you don't have anything on the 12th? [00:50:08]

THERAPIST: Well... oh, the 12th, I see. Um, I could, but it would be later in the afternoon. (client affirms) I would have, like... let's see... I could do a 3:00 on Friday the 12th. Do you want to do that?

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: Okay. That's better than the Wednesday time?

CLIENT: Um, yeah. I could finish up early that day or something. (chuckles) (pause) So 3:00?

THERAPIST: So 3:00 on Friday. So, next week is a little different. Monday at 10:15, Friday at 3:00 and then after that, Monday at 11:00 and Wednesday at 9:00. Sound good? (client affirms) Okay, great! Okay, and I will figure out the reimbursement, so I'll... It's like, you paid for five sessions that your insurance is reimbursing for, so I'll make sure to figure out the reimbursement to you.

CLIENT: Sure, no problem!

THERAPIST: Okay, take care, (Cecelia sp?). Okay, bye-bye!

CLIENT: You, too! Bye. I hope you got your parking permit!

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah! God, that's right! That was a mess! Okay! Take care.

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