TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Excuse me. So, one thing that, for a couple reasons, has been sort of, I've been thinking about since our last meeting.

THERAPIST: Yes. .

CLIENT: Which is mostly because of what I didn't say.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So, we were talking about, I was kind of giving you like an overview of like how weird and wild the kink world can be for me.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: (Yawning). Sorry. I'm just super tired today. So, I was saying consensual cannibalism, which still remains really gross and weird. But, what actually, had actually first popped in to my mind was something else. Which is so, you're probably, I don't know. Some people have uniform fetishes. Multiple uniform fetishes. Mostly gay men. And, so, Bob had been living with a gay porn artist. [00:01:20]

THERAPIST: Bob Belgium?

CLIENT: Bob of Belgium. It was a gay thing. He was an adolescent during World War II and fixated like sexually on the Nazi uniforms, among other things.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And not just like Nazi, like German uniforms. So, there are a lot of gay men who are like, who like hide a fetish side. It's this weird 1940's German uniformish look.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So, that's a thing and that's fine. And there are other uniforms and I'm like whatever. But, there are also people who will just wear Nazi uniforms in public. By public I mean like a public event.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I find it really horrifying and embarrassing and like it's incredibly anti-Semitic. It's just horrible and I really, I don't know. I felt like it only actually seemed, and it was the same person doing it twice. One person like came to the event in the Nazi uniform. It was maybe, probably a decade ago at this point and I just remember it really, really vividly because this person was kind of tall and when they were walking, you could hear kind of people like talking. Like, kind of around where he was. I'm like oh, who is this person that everyone's like muttering and talking about [00:02:50]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And I look up and at first I'm like okay, uniform fetish. Whatever. Then I was like those are stroked abreast.

THERAPIST: Oh, I see.

CLIENT: And he left the room and like a few of my friends who were there were Jewish and I'm like just so you know, there's a Nazi uniform in there. I don't think you want to go in there.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And then I saw him at another event in a similar uniform. And part of his thing seems to be making people really angry about it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Provocative?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: In that way.

CLIENT: Yeah. Which a lot of people do various things like that to make people react, which I don't like.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I, I still, it still bothers me and I still think about it and it's just like I hate to think about, although it does happen like, that actually bothers me more than the consensual cannibalism. Because it's nonconsensual and it's Nazis.

THERAPIST: Yes. What is consensual cannibalism? It's gross. [00:04:15]

CLIENT: So...

THERAPIST: And, actually I have a better answer. Because I was like Nazis, no. Consensual cannibalism. Sorry, we don't have that.

CLIENT: No, no, no. It's like consensual cannibalism is basically a lot of, not a lot, there are people who have cannibalism fantasies and fetishes or like being devoured or things like that. But, obviously you can't do that.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Because, you can't. So, like, basically slicing off a piece of flesh and having someone eat it.

THERAPIST: Got you.

CLIENT: So, there's this one particular woman that like I'm a friend with and her thing is really, really, really intense degradation and also, she likes to be, she likes people to see how degraded she is. Like, she wants an audience. That is one of the things that she started doing a couple years ago.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I heard about it via her being tossed out of her apartment and tossed out of a party because people are like what the fuck.

THERAPIST: Oh. They were doing that at the party?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And, like, the host did not feel that that was appropriate. [00:05:45]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Also, people complained.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: The better answer would actually have been and I was so flustered was, like a bunch of my friends use needles and piercing in bdsm. Which it's something I don't like that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So, a ton of my friends will do things like suture someone's mouth shut or use medical staples to do various things. And it's, I don't know. Like, in a weird way, it's like sort of become like what I'm talking about or what I'm thinking. I'm like oh, yeah, yeah, you know, the play piercing. Like, the suturing. I'm like whatever.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And then sometimes I'm like oh, right, that's actually really weird. Like, I don't think of it and it's like you can see it, but I know people are doing things that I can't see visibly or like a half hour ago.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Because I've always excused myself from the room when someone's doing that because of the needles. [00:07:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So, that is like a semi-normal topic of conversation with some of my friends.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And, then sometimes they'll talk about it and people will, someone will look super horrified and I'm like. It's easier when I'm just not thinking about it and I'm like I wish you would not have mentioned the play piercing or the...

THERAPIST: The needles and stuff.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like, I don't know. That's something I don't like, but mostly I don't like the implements. I don't like that sensation. It's like ugh. Anyway, for whatever reason, I was really thinking about like what immediately jumped to mind what I then kind of fumbled to say and what I actually wanted to say.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Does that make sense?

THERAPIST: Yeah. What made it difficult to say? I mean, is it my being Jewish or was it something else? [00:08:10]

CLIENT: Like a bunch of things. So, yes, it's you being Jewish. It's also that at that event one of my good friends, who is also Jewish, was there, and had family members die in the holocaust which is why I kind of ran out and said don't do it.

THERAPIST: Don't go.

CLIENT: Yeah. And, then the high school where I grew up, the honor's classes, like AP-Honors were about a third Jewish. So, like we'd have high holidays off basically.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like, we had class, but...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, like there was no point in studying your homework. So, I don't know, like embarrassment is not strong enough a word for how I feel about it, but it's, it's kind of like the horrible things that people will sometimes say about bdsm and I'm like that's not true. No one does that. And then I'm like well, except well, sometimes they do. [00:09:30]

Like, the best example I can give is not about kink, but about being queer. Which is like one sort of party line that says like you're born this way. You know, you didn't choose to be gay, except that some people do basically choose to be gay. Like, there are mildly transgendertive men or just like I don't, like women who are cute. I guess they're kind of okay, but I really prefer women or, you know, guys are like yeah, I liked a woman twice, but, actually I'm just going to go for a guy and be gay. And, also, you know, people who've had traumatic experiences with someone of another gender and are just like I'm done with that gender and that I will be over here. It's something that like basically, no, it's like we don't talk about it with straight people because it's we have a party line here that we're sticking to.

THERAPIST: Right. And for good reason. [00:10:40]

CLIENT: Right. And, so, sometimes there are some celebrity who have made a comment about some of the Sex in the City actresses about how basically she had chosen to be bisexual or something. And I was like that's totally a thing you can do, but we're not allowed to say that in public, so you need to not do that.

THERAPIST: Right. Right.

CLIENT: Except in play.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like, you know, theoretically, I guess, in a consensual like that anyone can do whatever. I just don't want them to be doing that. Yeah.

THERAPIST: So, it, it feels like a kind of humiliating thing about the community in which you're a part? [00:11:50]

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean there are sort of two parts. One is, I actually do, like, I do not think that people should wear Nazi uniforms to public events. I mean, I don't.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And one of the reasons why I don't think they should, I mean, A, it's horrible, but B there, they're making people look at their Nazi uniform without consent.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So, like, if you go to a World War II museum you kind of expect it.

THERAPIST: That's different. Yeah.

CLIENT: But, if you're going to a kink event, you don't expect Nazis.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I don't mean to say it quite like that. Like, you don't. You do expect like nuns, actually.

THERAPIST: Oh, really?

CLIENT: Yeah. A lot of people wear like naughty nun outfits to those things. But, I guess it's one of those things where I'm just like I just, I don't think it's okay to do that. I don't think it's okay to, I guess, basically I just don't think it's okay to wear a Nazi uniform in public for really any reason.

THERAPIST: Yes. [00:13:15]

CLIENT: I really wish that the event organizers would boot people for it in their rules or something. They won't because sort of like one of the bdsm party lines is you know, your kink is not my kink, but it's okay.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I'm like alright. However, I'm not saying that's not okay for them to do at home.

THERAPIST: Right. That's like saying I can't give them consensually.

CLIENT: Yeah, which is a lot of people's game. Which I don't like at all.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And, like...

THERAPIST: Like there's no way that it can work.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like, and, I don't know. Fortunately that person is not in my localish, you know, east coast. Is he still doing that? I have no idea. But, like, it's not just this one guy. There are like, they seem to have slowed down. Like, there seems to be fewer people just rolling in the Nazi outfits. Like, I haven't, I don't think I've seen once since these two events which were a while ago. Now people just wear like uniforms that look kind of like, like have whatever fetish effect they want. Like the shiny boots and the thing.

THERAPIST: Right. [00:15:00]

CLIENT: But, not Nazi insignias. And, the artist Colin Finland at one point because he'd been just drawing initially just all these other things. When he went to publish he was like oh, I don't want to do that.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So, he re-did the book. Like, he basically redrew like the insignias and like at one point he started getting kind of elaborate with it and had like little like, weird little like, instead of the cop shield, it would be like a cop shield with two like fuck all day or something which I appreciate it. But, I mean it also to me speaks a lot to how mainstream bdsm events really are in many ways in that that with the exception of like Manchester, because it's Manchester, there are really aren't many Jewish people in let's say organizational authority. Does that make sense?

THERAPIST: Yes. [00:16:20]

CLIENT: And there are almost no people of color. Gay guys usually do their own conventions, because they do. So, there are, there are gay guys making decisions but a lot of them are like, yeah, I go (inaudible at 00:16:40) to the gay thing. And then there are odd, queer women.

Yeah. Well, there are a lot of women in positions of power, but not a lot of queer women.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Manchester has essentially has a market which, by coincidence, was founded by a bisexual, kinky woman who was also not white. So, that's a little bit of a difference.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But, other than that's it's very, like it's very white. It's very Christian. It's very straight. Also, very dedicated to the belief that they're not any of those things. That they are just very out there and amazing and special because they do bdsm. And then some heterosexual people will insist that even though they're heterosexual, they should be allowed to use the word queer or say that they're not straight, because they're kinky and I'm not interested in that at all because they're still straight. [00:18:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah. They just get to make up and change the meaning of whatever word it covers like without anyone else knowing about it?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. It's also, I mean like, I mean you are lying. . And, also, like, if someone tells me their queer, I assume that means they're queer. So, if I were to hit on someone and they say oh, actually it's just because I'm kinky, I'm like what the fuck are you doing?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Or someone's like I'm not straight. I'm like okay. Oh, but you mean you're straight?

THERAPIST: Right. Sure.

CLIENT: And it's very rage inducing. And, then, of course, they know everything about what it means to be and impress a marginalized group because of kink.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Which is annoying. Yeah. Yeah, I think basically, like, it's that weird, like, have the power structure and be in some community that I was thinking about. I mean the other thing which happens all the time is, so, it's not, like everyone's very clear that you're not supposed to... If you are say a dominant woman, that's your thing. If you're working on the organizational level, you're not supposed be like wow.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:19:30]

CLIENT: Possibly and, so, they say that people are constantly being asked to do like things like can you go take the meeting notes? Take out all the trash and take the stacks.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And, that's very frustrating.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Something else. And, also not related to kink, on Monday, Ashby and I, well, Sunday and Monday gave our landlord the security deposit and letter which is quite impressive looking and quotes Massachusetts law and it's very like whatever. And so we both signed it and Ashby certified mail, send a copy by certified mail and she said oh, let me leave it down, a copy downstairs in his chair where he usually sits in the basement. I said no, no, no. I want to put it down there before I leave the house because I don't want... [00:21:00]

THERAPIST: Right. You don't want him to find it when you're home.

CLIENT: Right. I don't want to feel trapped. And then he came over super early for some reason. Like, I looked out the back and I saw that his car was in the driveway at like 10:30. I wanted to leave. So, after kind of waiting him out for a little bit, I just taped the note to the door of like on 19, and the other door is 21. And he's still thinking his residence is 21, so I'll just leave it there. And, he hasn't responded. Which is good. Sort of. And, Wednesday we're going to like drop oh, and we're moving out.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And yes, remember that thing we told you about the security deposit? Keep it. So, I'm super worried and nervous. Like, I very much feel like I'm like waiting for the shoe to drop. So, this weekend Ashby and I basically did every scrap of laundry we had because we're not going to have a basement for a while. While I was down there, I saw that he put up a new note to himself. It said thanks, Ted. He's written two motivational notes to himself that he's hung on the walls. The first one that he put up a couple months ago was thanks, Ted, we appreciate your efforts. We know you're trying. And he wrote it on like a paper bag. A paper bag that was stuck in the rafters. [00:23:00]

THERAPIST: So, it was written on a paper bag and sort of thing that said thanks, Ted?

CLIENT: And, so, I find really creepy.

THERAPIST: It' sounds pretty peculiar.

CLIENT: And, I kind of wonder. I'm like the idea that makes me feel less creepy about it is that it's basically a really weird version of like a motivational post-it note.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You leave yourself a note in the mirror or whatever.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But, it's in the shared basement.

THERAPIST: Right. On a paper bag.

CLIENT: Yeah. Just there.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And one time when the notes moved for a little while to the front of the basement and then it went back. And, he has set up a desk and he brought in a computer. We know that he brought in a computer which is part of why kind of I do not like doing laundry at all. He seems to be setting up to squat very intensely in the basement. [00:24:00]

I was also wondering like where is he plugging that in to? There's only two electrical boxes. I mean not that it would be an extensive amount of money, but and he had said that he wanted to get the phone turned on there so that he could have dial up. Because he wants to set the desk in the basement so that he can really dedicate his time to, like, looking for jobs and things. That was his goal like several months ago, but mostly it makes me feel like you're a squatter. He's a squatter in the basement.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like, and the notes are also creepy in that way before I'm like I don't, like it could be a really weird version of a motivational post-it note or not. I don't know. Like, I just don't know, like...

THERAPIST: Yeah. Are you able to sleep okay? [00:25:15]

CLIENT: Sort of. I'm trying to go to sleep earlier and wake up at a more normal time. Because I'm about to work in theory on Friday and maybe on Monday. So, yes, mostly. And so Monday I was just like I'm not leaving the house all day and over the weekend Jersey and I were mostly around so. Yeah. He worked around a couple. Friday night he appeared late and Ashby was about to take the laundry down and was like, oh, back up the stairs and was like he's on the property. Let's go sit in another room. And, so, I was worried that having her be there was okay. I am worried that she's going away for the weekend to visit a friend.

THERAPIST: This weekend? [00:26:15]

CLIENT: This weekend. So, I'm not, I'm not sure if I want to stay at a friend's house or if I want to... I mean I kind of really wanted to do packing. So, I've been thinking about maybe inviting a friend over to hang out while I pack. Yeah. Well, I haven't actually been worrying much about having a place for March first, now, I've decided to like start worrying about it even though, like, the whole thing which I still think is valid that that unfortunately a lot of brokers just won't list March first. They're still trying to get February, even though February is Friday.

THERAPIST: Right. [00:27:15]

CLIENT: So, that's true, but I don't know. Now that we've like gone for real doing it, I'm starting to get worried again. It doesn't mean like...

THERAPIST: Sort of finding a place?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yes. Finding a place. Getting everything packed. Mostly, right now, finding a place and getting everything packed. So, that's mostly where my anxiety's coming out. I mean it's not definitely as bad as when he was doing weird construction things.

THERAPIST: Right. That's good. [00:28:15]

CLIENT: Yes. Like I noticed, like, Monday, yesterday, I went over to the sewing studio to do some things. So, anyway. You know, there was really two producible tasks. Which was, one, to cut the piece of fabric in to 10" squares. Then to buy some like quilting batting material that I cut in to 10' squares. I cut up the piece of fabric for a little while. I didn't buy the piece of fabric for this purpose and I was like hmm. So, I put that down and went next door and bought a cup of coffee and had a snack in the back. And, for some reason, and then while I cutting, I kept on like mis-measuring what I was trying to cut, even though like a 10" square is not rocket science. But, I ended up buying an extra half yard of the batting because I just completely messed up at first. Like, I was trying to rope off and the first row was about 10" tall and I was like what. So, I had to cut again and sew and it was off again. So, finally, I sat down instead of like doing like cutting the stack, I was like I wound up doing it one by one.

THERAPIST: Right. [00:30:00]

CLIENT: Whatever. And, I just was thinking like, wow, I'm really like distracted and worried because I can't, like, I can't handle cutting out like a piece of paper . And, also, earlier, earlier I had missed the bus so I was like oh, I'll do a 15 minute walk to where this is. About five minutes in to the walk, I was like I can't do this walk because I had the yarn. So, I went and sat down and waited for a bus. So, that also made me nervous.

THERAPIST: Sure. Mostly before you're starting work.

CLIENT: Yeah. And my friends were giving me rides to work.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Which is great, except for the one that's going to be 7:30 in the morning.

THERAPIST: Not so great.

CLIENT: Yeah. My friend, Ashley, the one day that he is busy in the morning is Wednesdays. And, my other friend offered. She said I have to leave at 7:30. I'm like oh, okay. It's not like I had any other options here. So, yeah. [00:31:15]

THERAPIST: My feeling is also like, even when you mentioned your car stuff is that you don't, it's just that you often kind of leave stuff out like that.

CLIENT: Yeah. And that's part of why I might not because it just kind of, it was. Yeah. Like, I don't normally leave things out like that. And, especially, like, in general, like, some things I think a lot about before talking about them. Like, in general, I feel like if something is coming out of my mouth that I should just say it and like go forward. And, I think, that was a time when just, I didn't.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Which, yeah.

THERAPIST: I wonder if it was related to your level of anxiety and feeling less safe than you ordinarily would just to say what was on your mind.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean also, like, I think are those the weak parts? Either last week or the week before was the fact that I can mention urasia (sp?) that I did not attend. And actually I didn't attend to sex party associated with it this year. So, I'm with my friends who live in Manchester. A bunch of them had been encouraging and calling people they know and getting them to come. Like, it was just so great. Blah, blah, blah.

THERAPIST: What's the theme of it? [00:33:25]

CLIENT: It's just general censorship.

THERAPIST: It's not related to your car?

CLIENT: No. So, it's just like I mentioned. It skews younger, theoretically more progressive and then another little convention which skews older and more stocky. So, and one of the things I really, really love to talk to like maybe people who are like we're so not racist. It's just amazing how not racist and not sexist we are. It's just. So, they're very in to that. And when the organizer, Andrea Mathis, said that she really wanted to work on increasing diversity in attendees and in see them around. Like, people who do programming, just really work on that. So, they're kind of helping, but there's also a lot of institutional reluctance. Often, it's a very segregated city, etc. So, it's a convention that I never told another person of color you should totally attend this. Unless they were close. I would never say fly from Chicago to here.

THERAPIST: Right. [00:35:00]

CLIENT: And, like, you know, call them. But, several of my white local friends were like no, no, no. It's great. I was just like, it's not. Like, I know you want it to be, but you have some big blinders on. And, it's kind of funny that you've never noticed how I never back you up on that. I don't say don't come. You know, I don't because that's not. It's not such a crappy convention that I would say don't go, it's horrible. But, it's the shall we say basic level of like institutional racism.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: So, yeah.

THERAPIST: It's none of the supposedly special supposedly more enlightened.

CLIENT: Not really. Like, it's a little bit of I mean there's more lip service to it and there have been some cosmetic, like minor changes, but not in a real way.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:36:10]

CLIENT: The last one I attended was a couple years ago. You know, four or five years ago. I wore my shirt that says black parents unite. People just gave me dirty looks. Two people were for some reason walked here, it's like I walked by the information booth. Like, she asked me about my shirt. She was like what does it say. I said oh, it says black parents unite. She's like, but why black marriage? Why not all marriage? This sort of like why must you segregate and I'm just like I have to go. Excuse me. So, like that's just happening. It's also like my little black kit to get in to the cafeteria. It's just like everything's happening. [00:37:05]

So, two of my friends who are white have basically really encouraged and some women I know who are black depend. Like six or eight women I think. They all happen to be black in this case. And, so, what was awkward is the ways in which my white friends just have blinders on. So, at one point, like someone had said do you want to go out dancing? I'm like okay, you know, I suggested like where I would go dancing, which is like a gay club. There's like a, there's a gay club and there's a kind of gothish club that I also go to at night. And, I was like no, no, no like I want, I want you to talk. I was like oh, you can't get that in Manchester. There aren't any. Of course, one my friends are like no, no, there's got to be. I'm like there aren't. And she says like, maybe we should ask another person. I'm like there aren't. So, I was like fine, I will text my friend whose like husband is in like the local music industry and my friend just doesn't say a damn thing and be like there's nothing right about it. Yeah. I was just like I would know.

THERAPIST: I see. [00:38:30]

CLIENT: Like, why are you arguing with me about this? You know, whatever. And I was having a conversation with one of them later and I had a couple conversations with her. And one of them was, I was like, basically was like so, I was like yeah, it's really white, right? And no, it's not what your to these people and she's like yeah, you really have some blinders on. I was like nope. You should like do you mean I've never told you to attend? And she's like yeah, I just figured and I'm like nope.

THERAPIST: There was a reason there.

CLIENT: Yeah. And so we were talking about that. I never brought it back up. So, that was also stressful. And I've already...

THERAPIST: Last week?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like you said everything (inaudible at 00:39:55).

CLIENT: Yeah. And it's also just I had this moment. We were talking and this woman, Anthea, is a very forthright, not taking any shit woman. Like, she will stand up and like and just be like no, you're wrong and this is why and like, bam. And, she's known for that. Like, I mean she's like, it's one of those things where it's like I just literally could never do that. I do admire her for it sometimes.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:40:30]

CLIENT: She's very forthright and she and even on the panel, she'll be like no.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That's just bullshit. Like, that's just racist or whatever. So, during the event (sp?) she ended up doing that a lot during a couple of the panels. I was like Anthea, so, you know how people were treating you like a scary, angry black woman? That's what fans, like the people here think I am. That they see my very mild, gently phrased, blah, blah, blah and when I say that, they basically think I'm like I'm you. Like, yeah I'm yelling and being very forthright. I mean not to insult how she was talking.

THERAPIST: Right. More manners at this point.

CLIENT: Yeah. Unlike people who act as if I am a screaming, angry black woman, which I'm not or rather a loud angry black woman is what they would probably put it. And, I was telling it to my friend she just had this face like you are not that way. I'm like yeah, I know. I know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:41:50]

CLIENT: Yeah, and she's and then she's like this explains a lot. I was like yeah, it does, doesn't it? Because part of what the event wants is not to really have, they kind of want diversity to happen without out any problems or arguments or disagreements and I certainly don't want anyone telling them they're doing it wrong.

THERAPIST: Like, sort of self affirming diversity?

CLIENT: Yes. They want diversity where they only get pats on the back. Nothing bad happens. And everyone's just like, kind of simultaneously is like oh, I've seen the light. Which, you know, leads to a lot of really huge blinders about what's actually going on.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean there's also, I've noticed that several people have this perception like in their head. They feel like well, I've done this work as a white person on learning racism and I talk about it. So, I think, I feel like my friends all agree with me on this. And it's just like they really don't. Like, you might think that and you might want to believe that. [00:43:10]

THERAPIST: Right. It's not true. Yeah, I mean I guess I kind of thought about how many and I wondered if part of like that by starting out and like we're doing something kind of good or progressive and, you know, what we're talking about or what we're doing is like trying to correct something that is very destructive is kind of the way you looked at it?

CLIENT: Right. Like, what they want is people to be like you're so awesome and so great and in like in reality, it's what you're doing is saying I think people of color might be people too. Which is not actually that praiseworthy. You know, like treating people as if they are people is kind of like, you know, a basic standard of decency. [00:45:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And, yet the desire for all the praise and I had another member call me. Sheena called me out of the blue to basically, she wanted me to affirm a position that she had made regarding sexual harassment at the convention she runs. And, I was like I don't know this convention. I'm not. I'm just kind of like what?

THERAPIST: Did you she like give an explanation for why she reported?

CLIENT: Yeah. The answer is that I believe that many people consider me the like nice, reasonable, non-scary black person.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay. I thought you said sexual harassment. [00:46:00]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. Alright. Just to be sure.

CLIENT: And, I'm not exactly how sure she jumped from that sexual harassment except that I have also been involved in various groups and organizations who are working to prevent sexual harassment at the conventions. But, like, I just think, it just like disappeared.

THERAPIST: Right. And you're a black person.

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: And you're a black person.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like, I actually don't. I think basically she wanted, she's like you are a well-known reasonable black person. I would like you to...

THERAPIST: I see. Like keep your glass empty.

CLIENT: Yeah. I was like this I just won't call it padding.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like, I don't know her.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Also, weird that she asked like for my phone number via a friend in New Mexico as opposed to any of the local people who know me.

THERAPIST: Weird. [00:47:00]

CLIENT: Like, I think there's one of your chairs that has my member. Whatever. Like, at first, she just wanted to talk about it and like making difficult decisions. I was like alright. Whatever. And, then she was like really kind of weepy. Like, borderline weepy and was talking about how she's so frustrated. People aren't being nice to them and they're not giving them a chance and that even if they make this decision, which is to reject someone for sexual harassment as per their stated policy, that people will still be mad at them. And I was like yeah, it's true. And she's just like no, but what's the thing. Well, there's nothing you can do. Like, you can make that critical decision which is the correct one to eject this person.

THERAPIST: Right. [00:48:00]

CLIENT: You can make, you can state the changes that you're making.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And, yes, some people will never forgive you. She really, really, really didn't want to hear it from me. At one point, I was like do you want me like sit on the thing with you guys? And, so, I discovered where hung up on me. I'm not really sure. She's like, I'm, like, traveling to my house for dinner and I really can't talk after that. I was like okay and she has never contacted me again since.

THERAPIST: Sounds very weird.

CLIENT: It was weird. It was bad. I think it happened in like July or August. But, yeah, like I think a lot of people think they're very progressive. Like, their end game is no one being mad at me and I was like suck it up. People are going to be mad at you. Like, people are mad at my women's key group over things that happened 20 years ago. I don't know what else to tell you.

THERAPIST: Advice.

CLIENT: Yeah, advice. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. We should stop.

CLIENT: Okay. Sounds good.

END TRANSCRIPT