TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: So, I'll... we talked about this last time, but if I could pay you Monday, if that's okay?

THERAPIST: Sure, we could do that. Thanks.

CLIENT: (pause) As far as, I've been working on some stuff, literally; like, as I was sitting down here, just some other stuff that I'm doing.

THERAPIST: What do you have, what's up?

CLIENT: I was doing some stuff for (high (ph) inaudible at 00:00:43), some research, (inaudible), reading some writing that she's done, kind of giving her feedback on stuff. But uh, yeah, have I totally not even thought about, I've done none of my typical little preparation for coming in here and sitting down.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah, I guess so, right? The reason I say it is because as I sit here, I'm thinking to myself, "Oh, this isn't good, I didn't do that," you know? But you're right, it is probably for the best. (pause) Feels like a long time since I've been here. You know I was here on Monday? [00:01:22]

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: What were we talking about on Monday? (pause) We were talking about... the common topic of conversation has been this recent conversation with my dad and me (inaudible) way from working with him. And I did get that job, by the way.

THERAPIST: You did, huh? Good.

CLIENT: Yeah. They called me back on... They called me on Tuesday night and asked if I could come in yesterday. They didn't really say why; I didn't know if it was for another interview or something. Then when I got there, they just kind of gave me my paperwork and had me on the schedule for tomorrow night already! So, it's pretty wild! (therapist chuckles) It's really, really wild! [00:02:08]

I mean, literally, I think I... (pause) It would have been less than a week since I walked in there, and I was on the schedule already! Which is not only interesting, because... or unique in that, in a way, I've tried to get jobs a lot this year, to absolutely no avail; but particularly, because at the time, it was probably the best time that I could have got a job really, really fast, you know? (therapist acknowledges) Because I had this thing happen with my dad, and immediately, you know, even when we had that argument on the phone, I was thinking to myself, "I just need to start working somewhere else."

I just started... it was every evident to me at the moment, that that was something that had to feel good and to kind of like, get rid of the frustrating feelings I was having, you know? I just thought to myself, I'm not... how I can't get a job really fast, you know? All year I'm trying to get jobs, you know what I mean? But then I did! I got a job really fast, which feels good. It just feels really good. [00:03:33]

THERAPIST: Hmm! Yeah, where'd you...? (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, just like talking to my dad about it. You know, because I think before I went in last Wednesday night, I wasn't positive if I had the job, like, completely, to the point where I could actually like kind of say to my dad... (pause)

THERAPIST: Even a week ago yesterday?

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, even after I talked to them, and the conversation went well, it was a really exciting possibility. I was glad that I even kind of reacted in the way that I did, and went and looked for other work, you know, in a way that communicated a lot of stuff, but without actually really having a job. I was really, really scared that maybe I was going to have to go back and get work with him some more, and as such, feel like I was back peddling or something, you know what I mean? [00:04:26]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And not be able to like... I don't know, fallow through with this, you know what I mean? You know what I mean? Like, get to... you know, as if like oh, you know, for a week, I would kind of play around with this possibility that I'm going to do something different here, you know what I mean? But then have to kind of put my head you know, down and tail between my legs and kind of walk back to it... You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Okay. Yeah.

CLIENT: But it feels really good now to be on the other side of it. I've been speaking to my dad, like, rarely at all. He hasn't been calling or anything.

THERAPIST: Is that unusual for you guys? (client affirms) Even when you're not working together?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, he does, you know, he does the thing where he'll just call.

THERAPIST: How often do you guys usually...

CLIENT: He'll call most days. [00:05:20]

THERAPIST: Oh really? Regularly?

CLIENT: I mean, not recently. It's funny, because... even when we started working together, he started calling me less, which is interesting, but... Like, prior to that, he would call most days. You know, if we didn't talk for one day, it was like, not a huge thing; but if two or three days went by, and we didn't just talk on the phone, just to say, "Hey, what's going on?" it would be a little unusual, you know what I mean? (therapist acknowledges)

I think I talked to you about that, at times. Like, he would always call me, you know? I mean, he never had anything to talk about, but he just... it was sort of a little checkbox, almost I felt like, you know? I remember like during, like when I was in Providence College and stuff, I remember periods of time where if I didn't talk to him for a while, it felt better, on those grounds. You know, I noticed it and I liked it. [00:06:22]

(pause) But then when we started working together, he started calling me less frequently. I don't know why, but it was very, very apparent. He wouldn't call me for days. Even though, in theory, you'd think that we would be more needing to talk or something, you know? But it almost became harder to communicate with him at times.

(pause) But he is not been calling me at all. I talked to him on Wednesday night, I think, last night. Yeah, it would have been last night. He had asked me to call after I went in, to sort of see what they were going to say. I think in his mind it was still a little bit up in the air, as to whether or not I was actually going to have other work, and if I was going to have to keep working for him. [00:07:26]

Like, I called him up last night, and I told him... (pause) It was sort of a weird reaction that he gave me. He seemed almost a little... (pause) You know, I guess if someone else listened to our conversation, they would probably not notice anything that seemed weird or strained at all between us; but he seemed like almost a little like... inquisitive and... sort of skeptical of it, or something.

You know, he'd be asking me, like, "Oh, well how much work will they give you? What are you going to be doing there? How much are they going to pay you?" And it really... He wasn't just asking those questions, which are good questions, but in this kind of tone, like... (pause) I don't know, like... almost like trying to invalidate it or something. I mean it was really weird, it was really bizarre the way that he... He gets very quiet sometimes when he's like that and kind of unresponsive. [00:08:52]

He'll just say things... Okay... and let things kind of... And I don't know, it was just really bizarre. I suspect because I think what was actually transpiring, as those simple details were being discussed, was... like, me actually communicating to him that, "I am no longer going to work for you," which was never like explicitly said.

THERAPIST: It wasn't?

CLIENT: No, no. It wasn't.

THERAPIST: Interesting.

CLIENT: And I think I mentioned this to you like a week or two ago.

THERAPIST: It was just kind of implied?

CLIENT: Like a week ago, yeah, that, you know, even when I was talking to you about that night when we kind of got into the tiff on the phone, how like for my dad, for him to call back afterwards and even just sort of say, "Hey, you know, kind of, got a little wild there." That's such a departure for him, that would be the equivalent to like most people like writing me an apology letter or something, you know what I mean? I think a lot of times we communicate things non-verbally. [00:10:10]

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: The way I put it to Laney last night was, I think we communicate a lot of things by way of what's not said between us, you know? Almost as much as what is said between us.

THERAPIST: It also says a lot that is not said, that is something about that is such a horrid (ph) element, that certain things don't, aren't said is...

CLIENT: Yeah, what do you mean?

THERAPIST: That it's, I guess what I'm thinking about is that... One of things, I think it relates to this kind of like idea that we've been talking about in terms of "keeping things cool."

CLIENT: Yeah, I see what you mean.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that aspect of it. Like... you know, when he called back, he was sort of saying, "Hey, things weren't cool right there." (client affirms) You know? Wow, what did he say to you? Uh... [00:11:28]

CLIENT: He said, "Our emotions got the best of us a little there."

THERAPIST: Our emotions got... Yeah, right. Right. There is a departure from just letting it kind of...

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, no. It's funny that you put it that way. (pause) Because it is almost like we have this huge sort of category of communication, which is sort of things that are just not said. They're definitely not... I suppose some of the things we've spoken about here would lead me to think this, in a lot of ways, that them not being said certainly doesn't mean that they're not communicated, that they're not understood. [00:12:20]

(pause) I mean, yeah, I sort of... (pause) Like, the... Yeah, I mean, that was what was being communicated when I was talking to my dad and telling him that I didn't want to work for him. What I was effectively communicating to him was... (pause) "I don't want to keep working for you, because of that experience that we had. That pissed me off, and I'm going to step away from you, I'm going to turn away from you," you know what I mean? (therapist acknowledges).

I had no intention of putting it in those terms, you know? And he had no intention of pulling that out of me, the way some people probably would. Some people would be like, "Is this because of that thing that happened?" You know? "Just tell me if it is!" Like, I can understand why some people would want to know that. Neither of us had any interest in going there. You know, all the while we knew, I think both of us were so incredibly able to just sort of... just know that already. And the reason that, yeah. I think that's why we're both more comfortable with that. (therapist affirms) Because, just like I said, if someone else listened to the conversation, they would (chuckles) everything was totally cool, you know? I mean, yeah. (pause 00:13:54 to 00:14:15)

You know, it's funny, because I don't... I've thought a lot about this idea of like, this motif of like, "keeping things cool." Like, we've talked a lot about that. We've pulled that out of a lot of different things that I've talked about. (therapist acknowledges) It resonates with me a lot, and I think it makes a lot of sense, but I really only ever think about it when we talk about it or when I think about it in a very sort of like... you know, from looking out from where I am, you know what I mean? I guess I don't usually think about it from a perspective of...

You know, like, "keeping things cool" is something I try to do, you know? But like, I think that maybe my dad would be motivated by something like that, too. It's interesting. (therapist acknowledges) You know, I always thought me trying to "keep things cool" wasn't the reactive coping method I had from my dad, as opposed to the fact that that could be a... something that he wished too, you know? [00:15:22]

THERAPIST: Yes. No, and I would put it almost as if, say, like the coping mechanism is not just an internal one for you, but it's an interper... it's a relationship coping. It's almost like you're sort of saying, "My dad needs this." I mean, not like it's a conscious intentional kind of thing, but it's more like... I was thinking in some way, your dad gets overheated when things come up around who he is, how I see, how I might see him (client affirms), you know?

CLIENT: Keeping everything... everything being cool keeps everything cool, almost, or...

THERAPIST: Yeah! Then some way... I was thinking that in some way, just my own sense of it is that your dad might have a hard time feeling... okay, good (changes), but it's just really generally, a good father if his son is mad at him. [00:16:32]

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah. In the way that my mom, I think, sometimes might navigate in those waters a little bit more, where she sometimes might even want to... you know like, in the past, where she would ask me questions like, "Was it hard for you when me and dad broke up?" I think she would see that as her being a good mom, and that she's opening up that space, (therapist acknowledges) you know what I mean? A different way to make sense of that (therapist affirms). You know, that would not happen with my dad.

THERAPIST: And I think, I would say it's with your mom, it's almost the same anxiety, but deals with it in a very different way, making sure that you have space that it gets mentioned and brought up, but for fear that you wouldn't.

CLIENT: It's the same conclusion that they would draw, yeah. [00:17:30]

THERAPIST: Yeah, that she's anxious about, that you would see her as somebody that's mad at her. Why, I mean, she'd want to know, she'd want to know because it gets a chance to reconcile with that in mind.

CLIENT: Well, yeah, I guess there are different ways for them to try to work out... (pause) they both through... in some ways animated by wanting to be a good... I guess to, by the want to not be a bad parent, you know. (therapist affirms)

(pause) You know, it's funny, though, too, right? Because, that was a really interesting way of thinking about that conversation that we had. I hadn't really thought about it that way, about me and my dad, when we were on the phone. That, like both of us were communicating all this stuff that was not being said. But I stand by it; I think it's a pretty accurate analysis of what was going on. [00:18:35]

But what's funny about it is... (pause) You know, yeah, I mean, I paint a pretty cool picture for my dad; I paint a very cool picture for my dad, you know? Everything is really cool, like across the board. To the point where us, like raising our voices to each other on the phone would be like historically one of the paramount examples of us like getting into a direct confrontation with each other, you know? [00:19:11]

(pause) But I think a lot of the times I've argued, I've come in here and said to you, part of the thing that really pisses me off about my dad is how, to him, everything just seems totally cool, you know? Like that upsets me, when he does that. A lot! You know, the fact, you know, like I said to you sometimes, not even just the fact that he has maybe done these things, but that he just seems cool about it seems even worse, seems I'm bothered by it, you know?

Who knows? Maybe my dad's going to a psychotherapist twice a week, too, you know? And I have no idea about it, you know? This sort of makes me think, you know? How, you know, if I can present an image to him that is as different from reality as convincingly as I think I do, I mean, who's to say that that's not the case for my dad, too, you know? [00:20:21]

(pause) Or I guess it, I don't know... I guess maybe I'm... It makes me think that maybe I'm kind of party to that, a little bit, you know? To that relationship that we have.

THERAPIST: What are you say... what are you...?

CLIENT: To like, the idea that like "everything's cool" is like... sort of like a descriptive of our interpersonal relationship. (therapist affirms) Like, that's, you know... (pause) You know, because it's like, on the phone, that conversation, neither of us wanted to go any further with it. Both of us wanted to stay there, both of us knew where we didn't want it to go. (pause 00:21:25 to 00:21:50]

I mean, I guess it's just interesting, because I typically, I think, paint a picture of my dad as pretty arrogant in his effect on people, particularly with some of the things that he's done, you know? He seems pretty unconcerned and almost like blissfully unaware of the fact, that maybe he's done some bad things or something. But I guess it was just interesting going through that process with him, and having that argument and the reconciliation that we did, because in going through it with you, and thinking about it as much as I have... (pause) he... you know, while he didn't discuss it at all; what I'm saying to you now is that he was pretty aware on some level, you know? Which is pretty consistent with this image I have of him as like, everything just bouncing off his... [00:22:45]

THERAPIST: Right, right, right. Like, he's not obtuse. He's not... Like, that he knew what, why you were taking this job. He knew why you were taking the job. (client affirms) He knew that had to do with that.

CLIENT: He chose not to pick up on that, you know? (pause) Yeah, he was. (pause)

THERAPIST: He knew it was going to, that argument... (client affirms) the feelings you both had. [00:23:32]

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, I don't know. Something about it felt really good, though, you know? On a lot of different levels. I felt closer, I feel almost closer with my dad in almost, like, morbid way or something, you know what I mean? After like... I mean, I think a while ago I would have said, "I'm going to get closer to my dad by working with him," or something, you know what I mean? I feel like I'm closer with him now that I've, like, pushed him away, in that sense. I feel closer, I feel more comfortable or something, talking to him or... I don't know.

THERAPIST: Well, you know, I was thinking that in pushing him away, it's different than that feeling you described as like, "I could backslide and go back, and work with him and have my tail between my legs." You know, that that would have, yeah, you would have been closer to him in a certain sense of yeah, you'd continue working with him, but pushing him away was actually showing more of your feelings, you know? Showing the response, almost you're sort of communicating to him in these behaviors, in your choices that something was from that, was from that, something that you were reacting to that conversation, and that you've taken some action. I was thinking, it's different than if you had just gone back. It would have been like a, kind of a continuation of "It's cool," and you would have felt like he doesn't really know. He doesn't know what this meant to me. Or he... Yeah. Does that make sense? [00:25:30]

CLIENT: No, yeah, completely. No I understand exactly what you're saying. I'm just thinking about it. But yeah, no, I understand exactly what you mean. (therapist affirms)

(pause) I mean, I don't know, at least I'm trying to like articulate this. We're so, one of the things that just strikes me as so strange about this, though, is... I guess I came in here, and I guess I still do, I think I do have some like bizarre, not bizarre, but maybe some kind of idealistic expectations about what like the end game is with this process here. I think I talked to you about it even earlier on, you know? [00:26:32]

I think that is when I was banging out when I was asking you like, "Can you just tell me, like, you know, is it my parents?" You know what I mean? "Is that where this is going to go, like..." I think I've even said to you sometimes, I worry about getting into stuff here, because then what does that mean? What do you follow that's resolved with what's... you know. I think I have a fantasy in my head sometimes of like... (pause) If I uncover enough stuff here, that I'm really upset about with my dad, or you know, about anything; then do I have to like, am I obligated to do something that makes me feel uncomfortable, you know? [00:27:34]

(pause) Like, is that, like is that something I'm going to stumble upon in here or something? You know? Is that going to be the end, is that going to be what all of this leads to? (pause) When I have that fantasy in my head, it's always of me realizing that, but then not doing it; because it seems impossible, and then feeling even worse about the whole thing, and wishing that I'd never even started coming here, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Huh! Did you just have that feeling just then? Or just as you're talking (blocked) [00:28:30]

CLIENT: No, I think about this sometimes, briefly. It's just a little, just image that pops into my head or something. Like, not that we come to conclusions like this when we talk, but like, after, like five years, are we going to come to this conclusion as crystal clear, that I have to like go up to my dad's and sit in front of him and read off a laundry list of shit that I'm mad at him about and wish he did differently, you know what I mean? Like, is that, is the more explicit, and the more in your face, you know, I am about this stuff, is that the healthier, is that the cure, you know? Is it just getting to that? You know, if I'm here because I'm angry about things that I have a hard time expressing, is progress just getting closer to being able to do that, you know what I mean? (therapist acknowledges) Sort of like prove like repressed, liberation of the repressed type of like framework, you know what I mean? (pause) And I never really think it through too much, but it makes me feel uncomfortable when I think about it, because it doesn't, the little image I have in my head, it never ends well. [00:29:52]

THERAPIST: What is the image you end with, if you follow it on?

CLIENT: It's me realizing, it's me just realizing a whole bunch of stuff that I should say, but I'm still not going to say; but now things are just worse, because I'm more aware of them, you know what I mean? If the only point is to get to saying it, you know, I'm not going to say it.

THERAPIST: "What am I doing?"

CLIENT: You know, and if the only value in getting more access to them is so that I can then say them; but I'm never going to. Like, what's the point, you know? I think that a lot. (therapist affirms) And I thought about that, like, right when I came in here, you know?

THERAPIST: You mean, when we initially started?

CLIENT: No, like the first time I came.

THERAPIST: Yeah, right.

CLIENT: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Literally, you know? [00:30:47]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I see. (pause) Yeah, so it's that you would be, you would come to a point where I would kind of maybe see as the cure... getting to know what your feelings were about your dad and then saying... and almost like, to get halfway there is just almost, (stutters)...

CLIENT: ...to do something beyond what I did with my dad on the phone. (therapist affirms) For him to do something, and for me to get mad at him, and feel comfortable enough to not do any of that communication, to not verbally say anything, you know what I mean? To get past that, you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) That's the image I have in my head. That's what I have to do away with, or something. (therapist acknowledges) It's very Hollywood-ish and whatnot, but... [00:31:50]

THERAPIST: Well, and I was thinking that, like in my, in some of my comments about "keeping things cool," like, I suggested that, yeah, you've had to kind of "keep things cool" for your father's sake, that maybe in that is implied that, hey, there is this other way to be, and you could just say it to the old man and that will be the ultimate... that's the end game. You've succeeded or you've...

CLIENT: Well, yeah, the way that we've, I feel like the way we've spoken about is, I have... you know? It was an unpleasant experience growing up in certain ways, and the way that we've identified, like, what was unpleasant about it for me was this, like, incessant feeling that I had to "keep things cool," you know what I mean? Like, that was the act, that was the obligation that I had that made it tough, you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) [00:33:02]

So, yeah, I mean it seems logical, you know? So, how do you move away from that, you know? If it made me so upset to have to keep saying everything is so cool, you know, it's like, oh, well, then, do I have to start saying things aren't cool, you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) Do I have to be more, just like... (pause) just say things, I don't know, just, yeah, just... (pause) I don't know... just do the opposite of that, you know?

THERAPIST: Say things and damn the consequences, in other words?

CLIENT: Yeah, you know? (pause) But like, I don't know, but I guess I bring it up just because it just felt interesting to me that we had that conver... that conversation with my dad was in some ways like, I think here I've spoken about it already in two ways. Like, one, it was very different than the way that we do things, you know? In a way that made me feel me good. But then, I also sort of explained to you the way that it encapsulated all those aspects of not... of "keeping it cool," you know what I mean? [00:34:38]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, it's interesting. Just saying, maybe you could speak to this, but I realize that I kind of turned in that interpretation, in a way. Like, I think you were talking about my sensitivity...

CLIENT: Interpretation of...?

THERAPIST: ...of, like I said, well, yeah, it's your way of, I guess like, the two of you are trying to "keep things cool." Like, what wasn't spoken is just as important as what's... you know, there was a lot spoken and what wasn't spoken, or something like that. (client affirms)

What I remember, though, is before I said that (and I even had the thought after I said it) was, you are going in a different direction with it. You were talking about how good the experience felt to be very, you know, very much like, "Hey, I found my own thing, Dad," and now that felt really good. And you were foc... I turned the focus in another direction. What I was thinking, here is what I'm thinking, and maybe it's just me being, you know, concerned about the effects of what I have to say, but, I was thinking in a way, I was also, maybe there is the implication of, "Yeah, but, you guys still haven't talked about this," or something like that. [00:36:00]

CLIENT: Well, I guess that's sort of makes me curious about it. (therapist chuckles) Like, does it require getting over that, to feel good?

THERAPIST: That's a good question.

CLIENT: Like, is this, sort of, very kind of crude image I have in my head of stuff, like, is that.. you know, obviously it's not, but like... Do I have to be worried about that? You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, right, right, right.

CLIENT: I don't know...

THERAPIST: Ah-huh, ah-huh.

CLIENT: And I guess, just what I was thinking about, me having that conversation was like, "Wow, I actually had an interaction with my dad and I felt good," and I didn't like... I didn't' do that. (therapist affirms) I didn't just lash out, I didn't just explode, I didn't erupt, you know? There was a way to get around it without that, you know? Wasn't just walking over the coals, you know? There was some other route to feel good about, you know? (therapist affirms) [00:37:18]

Still, to me, just because of that idea in my head, you know, that I think sometimes. (pause) No, but even with this, you know, like I leave and I think, like, "What am I going, what do I, what do I do with my dad," you know? I feel like that's what I'm looking for, in a way, like, at least with respect to him. Like, I don't know what to do with him. In an ideal world, I just would never want to see him again, you know? Really badly, you know?

I feel like, you know, even with Laney sometimes, I feel... hypocritical when I talk to her about things that really bother me about him. And then we're together, and I see him, and we're so... everything is so cool, you know? The way that I felt when I just kind of walked back to start working with him, you know? I feel, I feel silly about myself sometimes, you know? You know, like I've told you about, I feel almost guilty towards my mom when I feel close to my dad, you know? [00:38:37]

(pause) When I'm up there with him, I feel like I couldn't spend another day here with you, you know? I don't know, I... (pause) I don't know, it just seem very unresolved, it seems very... it's a very anxious thought for me. Like, "What am I, what is my relationship going be with my dad the rest of my life," you know? Like, am I going to have to, like, cut him off or something, you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) Like... (pause) I feel like since I, I feel like forever, it has been in this, like, half-open, undecided, ambiguous, weird, unsettling silence or something, you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) [00:39:50]

(pause) And that, you know, those things impact, like, how I see myself, you know what I mean? Like, even just like with that thing with my dad. Like, I can think, I was thinking it about, like, in the next couple of months, so differently or something, you know? Like, after I left working with my dad. (therapist affirms) (pause) I was like, "Oh, I could make more money like, I... I'm like free, you know, from now until when I start law school, when I would I stop working with him, you know what I mean?

Like, things move with those chips (ph) a lot. When my dad gets mad at me still, I freak out still, you know? Like I did when I was really, really young, you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) (pause) It's a... you know, when my dad calls me and stuff that like I have to go somewhere quiet to talk to him, you know what I mean? I have to like schedule a time to like talk to my dad, so he wouldn't, you know, get mad because it's loud behind me or something, you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) Like, it's not... (pause) In my mind, it just seems to beg some... some... something, you know? Doesn't seem sustainable or seems like I'm being dishonest with myself to him, and being cowardly or something. (pause) Does any of this make sense to you? [00:41:33]

THERAPIST: It does, yeah. It does, yeah. Because I, what I was thinking about is that... that there is a feeling that you have, that you're not... I mean, I'm truly just struck by how different your thoughts about yourself kind of change when I brought up the whole, that whole kind of interpretation around the coolness thing. I was thinking about how you had felt good about what had transpired. And like, hey, this is something new that's happened between us. In a way, you felt like you were showing him a lot, showing, maybe there is some way of showing or something.

What I was thinking about it is this, that I think, like in a way, there is a... I think you're kind of aware of a certain kind of thing that... (pause) I was thinking that to, even to make a smaller confrontation of something, in a gesture like you did, like, was actually not a small thing at all to say I'm not going to, imply I'm not working with you any longer, I'm going to be working somewhere else (client affirms) (inaudible at 00:42:55).

But, that in some way you know the situation between the two of you, and between people, can get so heated, can get so heated and I guess what comes to mind for you that seems very important is this: it's almost like this very important critical memory you have of your father and his family, just splitting over a fight and never having anything else to do with one another. Like, this kind of just split that happens when people have talked about what they're really seeing and feeling about each other. That situation like that can get so overheated, it can be kind of... it can be lost.

And I was thinking that in some way, you and your... you're trying to kind of... there has always been this question, then, about what you can be saying to your father that doesn't get things so overheated, that things blow up. I mean, those were my imagery, I don't know... [00:44:15]]

CLIENT: Yeah. No, it lends itself to the "keeping things cool."

THERAPIST: Yeah, that's where again that, but like the inflammatory, where things can be inflammatory and hot and "keeping things cool" is a way of, it's almost like a feeling of, man things get really overheated and people can break apart because of that. (client affirms) (pause)

You, in some way introducing this element with your father about what... you're clearly reacting to something happening around that phone call and the work that you had been doing, the collaboration that was going on, and you expressing a dissatisfaction with it by leaving the job and taking this other job is in my mind like a way to dialog with him about who he is to you without it getting so damn overheated that the thing just breaks and flies apart. [00:45:17]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. No, no, yeah. No, I see exactly what you're saying. Because then that's what I think is the prob... yeah, that's what... You know, my dad raised his voice, I raise my voice with him, and he called back, you know? That would surprise me, you know?

THERAPIST: He called back... yeah, right, right, right, right.

CLIENT: Yeah, that was, I learned something tonight. That was... yeah. I didn't know if that, I wasn't sure how that was going to play, you know what I mean? That's one little, you know, piece of information, you know, which is nice to know, I guess, but... [00:46:17]

Yeah. I feel like you are very hesitant some... to have... and I'm not making any value statement or judgment of this, but I feel like you're cautious to over-influence, or to maybe steer or something my interpretation of something, you know? Maybe perhaps as every good therapist should be, you know? At the same time, I'm aware that I'm dying for someone to explain it all for me, you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) And in a way, which I suspect is probably... it's just that I wonder if I was sitting in your chair, if I were to tell me anything like that, I wouldn't think that I would be able, you know, not latch onto it and consider it gospel or something, you know what I mean? [00:47:17]

THERAPIST: Right, right, right. Yeah, so it comes across as me not wanting to... I think there is, I think that's right. I mean, I guess it's... what I was more, I guess, I think there is that side of it, I can see what you're saying; and I'd add to it, that I also felt like you were trying to tell me something very different than where I was going with it. Like I was saying, you were going this direction, I was saying, Wait, look over here!" And not that that's a bad thing; it's not. But, I think you were trying to say something else. Anyway, that's...

CLIENT: I hear what you're saying. (pause)

THERAPIST: But, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I hear, though, that you... Yeah, could I say things without it being, without being fearful of it being overly influential and...

CLIENT: What it makes me think is that what... so I, sometimes I observe or speculate that you're cautious not to try to give form to something in a way that I might then sort of run with too much, or just sort of not be able to critically evaluate it or... you know what I mean? Not wanting to make, give something form and in doing so, not let me do it myself. (therapist affirms) [00:48:55]

But what it makes me, it just suggests to me that... that would have to be sort of, it can only be done in a place where, you know, I don't have a lot to work with, you know? I feel real... that I'm very uncertain about it.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay!

CLIENT: That I'll take any bit of clarity I can get almost, even if it's just because it's... my idea.

THERAPIST: Interesting way of looking at it.

CLIENT: Know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: I know that we're over that (ph), (inaudible at 00:49:34).

THERAPIST: No, no, no; I'm glad you said that. (pause) Um, okay, well, Monday!

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Monday.

THERAPIST: All right.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: The rain.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it is. It came back.

CLIENT: I'll drop this in the sink here, okay?

THERAPIST: Yeah, thanks.

CLIENT: Thanks.

END TRANSCRIPT