TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: (joined in progress) ...doing a whole bunch of different things with that, but... One of the things that I've been figuring out is... my healthcare situation, which is one thing that will be impacted by this, you know? (therapist affirms)

Basically throughout, during school, obviously, I had to be on one of these co-insurance plans, which I'm figuring out the details of right now; but I was able to figure out one thing, which is pretty good news for me, I think, and by extension then, for you. It's that... you know, I can stay on my mother's health insurance if I'm 26, and they actually said that they would let me stay on my mother's insurance until February of, like this coming February.

THERAPIST: (20)14?

CLIENT: Yeah, instead of having to enroll right away in student health insurance, which would be, like, in September. I can file a change of life event, or something. Which, I don't have the details; it sounds like, at least with respect to this, it would be like, a similar 80 or 60/40 thing or something. [00:01:12]

THERAPIST: Do you know what insurance it is?

CLIENT: I called them up and actually, it was really weird. They said, "Yeah, we'll answer whatever questions you have." I was like, "Can you, so what is monthly insurance going to be," and they were like, "Um... You know, um... Let's get back to you on that." (chuckles) I was like, um... But, nonetheless, I'll be able to stay on it at least until then, which would reduce the possibility of, if anything, there being more than one $1000 deductible in one year, which is my real concern, right? Because I would switch, and they said, "All right, another $1000 deductible." That would have been a nightmare. (therapist acknowledges)

But, uh, if... you know, if in February, I would have to do it either way, if I'm staying on or not, so... When I get those details, what I'll probably do is at least try to get the info from them, or talk with you, just to figure out what it would look like, because, what I'll have to do for school is, I have to submit, in like the next couple of weeks, a request for financial aid based upon my budget until September of 2014, you know what I mean? (therapist acknowledges) So, we'll have to try to figure out what, you know, payment-wise, what, how often we'll be doing this, and stuff. Yeah, but, it's good news, though. Looks like I can stay on until February. [00:02:43]

THERAPIST: Good, okay.

CLIENT: I honestly, I didn't even want to bring it up, because I didn't know what the h*** I would do if there was another $1000 deductible. I just...

THERAPIST: ...if you had to start, yeah. You mean, like a (blocked)

CLIENT: ...before I even finish paying off, you know? I, it was, like nonetheless, that's a comforting...

THERAPIST: I see, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's good news you didn't have to switch and then pay another deductible.

CLIENT: Yeah, before I was even done paying the other one, you know? (therapist affirms) And I guess I might as well just let you know now, too, that for... I don't know if you want the actual dates, but like, for the first two weeks in August, I'm going to be gone. It's not completely figured out yet, but if I had to guess, I'm going to be gone... We haven't got the tickets just yet... the 29th is sort of in question, I'm not really sure if I'll be here or not. That's the day I'm hoping to leave on. Definitely not Thursday, August 1st, definitely not Monday, August 5th, definitely not Thursday, August 8th. (therapist acknowledges) And then I'll be home the following week, but we'll have to figure something else out at that point, because on the 12th, I start, kind of full time and... I'll have to see what that means. [00:04:22]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, you'll probably, you'll have a whole different schedule.

CLIENT: A whole different schedule and prob... I mean, without really thinking about it, I guess, I just assumed that, by design I'd probably have to basically re-arrange everything (ph), you know? I mean, just the matter of finding the time to... I don't know, I guess. I mean, and one of the things is... Because in a way, the money is almost kind of less of an issue, because I just budget it right. It's just a matter of how much I want to pay back in loans at some day. But, I mean, in a sense it would be easier than now, you know what I mean? Because it's just kind of, I mean, you get one huge Access check, or twice a year. (therapist acknowledges) I could almost, just like, pay you (chuckles), like some massive sum of money, like off the bat, or something.

I don't know if I told you, one of the things that I did recently was send an e-mail to my mom's friend, Karen (ph), who sort of like a de facto aunt for me growing up, you know what I mean? Not in my family, but she may as well have been. I'm really close with her, still. She's my mother's age. She lives at the Square, and she's been renovating the bottom floor of her house that she shares with her partner. [00:05:38]

I asked her if we could talk about maybe Laney and I moving in there, which would be really awesome. A while ago, she sort of, in passing mentioned it. She would be willing to rent us that place for what we pay in Belmont (ph), which is like $900 a month, which would be... I'd almost feel bad doing it, but, I think she said that she would, that it would almost be worth it to her, not to have to bring someone that she doesn't know in, or something.

So if that works, that would be really cool, and it would also mean that coming here would be a lot less of a, I won't say ordeal, but like, you know, this, you know...

THERAPIST: Oh. It's a lot more of a commute...

CLIENT: Yeah, it's like an hour and a half on each end that I kind of devote to it. I don't know, I mean, it could, that I could...

THERAPIST: Yeah, that would make it, yeah, I mean, in terms of your time, that would make it a little more do-able. Twice...

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess without thinking about it, I just assumed that I'd probably cut down to once a week (blocked)

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I guess I didn't really think too much about it, but... (pause) I don't know. (pause) All right, well, what do you think about that? Assuming that school is just incredibly time consuming? [00:07:00]

THERAPIST: Well, you know, first of all, you've got to do what's best for you with it, you know? You know, that's a... If you're travelling out to, you know, if you're going to do an hour and a half each way, that ends up being a lot... I mean, you know, who knows, maybe it wouldn't be, you know...

CLIENT: Odds are, I'd be coming from school anyways, you know what I mean? Or I'd be coming here and then going to school. So, time-wise, it would be worth thinking of it like coming from there, as opposed to... you know what I mean? I might even be coming after school or going before school.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, you know, it might be something that you feel is, I guess you've got to see, you know? You've got to see what it would, I guess, we want to just see, you know? See what it feels like.

CLIENT: Would that seem to you like therapeutically, like a step in the opposite... like a way that would kind of trying (ph) effect, or something? [00:08:10]

THERAPIST: Nah, you know, I certainly don't think about it in terms of... I mean, I don't think about it terms of any kind of... you know, things related to, you know, one, your mental health, so to speak (chuckles) or something like that. It's much more of, the kind of the work that we're doing. Yeah, it's the kind of thing that is best done with more frequency. That is just a fact. To me, that's just a fact. Like, you know, the constant working on it, it's, the more the better, in my mind.

But, is it like a step back? No, no! It just means... I mean, I don't know what it would mean for us, but to me, it's always been, especially like, with the stuff that we're kind of working on, the more the better, we really get into stuff (inaudible at 00:09:06).

CLIENT: No, I, from my experience, would support that, absolutely. I mean, this seems like... (pause) when I came once a week, it felt, I think, like the metaphor I used, like putting your mouth around a fire hose, you know what I mean? Like, just like, too much, you know what I mean? This little bit at a time just, you know, it was almost impossible to... But now I just feel like that every time I come, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, I mean, I would love to be able to come here four days a week, you know?

THERAPIST: That's good, really good.

CLIENT: I think it would be really great. (pause) I think it would be fantastic, actually. But, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think about it too, like... I was coming here twice a week at the end of my undergrad, right? Yeah, I was.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think it was February (ph) (inaudible).

CLIENT: While school will probably be objectively more demanding than undergrad across the board, I don't really know that I'd be able to... I don't know if there is any more time that I could be devoted to my studies than I was then, you know what I mean? So who knows? I guess we'll see. (pause) Yeah, we'll see, I guess. (pause) But... (pause) Yeah. It will be a big change; it will be a big change of scenery. [00:10:43]

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah, No, I've been thinking about it, too, yeah.

CLIENT: Have you?

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah.

CLIENT: What, about me going into school?

THERAPIST: Well, yeah, and what it would, you know, what it would mean for this, and that it's going to be... well, in your life more generally, yeah. I guess that that's... well, just one area of your life's going to be changing.

CLIENT: Yeah? Well, what... what do you... How so? How..., you know?

THERAPIST: You know what, I don't, it's not like I have, I don't, I wouldn't say that I have like kind of an idea of how it's going to change; just that it, you know, it's a major change, to go to, start going to school. You know, you're going to be in different city, that's going to be a different part of your life, different stage in your life. (client affirms) I think, you know, it shapes who you are, and I was just thinking it's, yeah there is time, there is work, it's going to be a big... it's going to be a big change for you. [00:11:43]

CLIENT: Yeah, it will be a big thing. It's funny, because I think about it as like, it's going to be a change, but... (pause) I don't know how to put this... I feel like I'm going to be going back to what's like normal for me. You know, I feel like right now, this is, this feels like I'm kind of a fish out of water, this year like not in school, just working. You know, I feel like it's going to be a change back to like...

THERAPIST: Yeah. Something more...

CLIENT: I mean I just see it as like, me being back in school, the content of it is almost secondary. Like that lifestyle is something that I'm going to just feel more comfortable in, you know what I mean? Which I'm excited about on that end. (pause) I almost feel like I'm... in a weird way, just trying to like, keep things together until August comes. Then once I can get it all (sighs), I just like let go again, then come back to what I know, to what I can do, to where I feel... you know? (pause) Yeah. I don't know, like, where I will feel like I'm back on track... [00:13:03]

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah? Huh!

CLIENT: Like, my value and contribution to society or something would be clearer to me in a way that, right now is just like... there seems to be very little kind of... direction or purpose, in a way, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Is that right? Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I would have been very... (pause) Yeah, I think I was eager to get back into, I was eager to get back into school.

THERAPIST: What's it been like, with you, as you said, not having that kind of like, yeah, I know this is, you know, I'm on a path to something.

CLIENT: I mean, I think this year with me not being in school, I have, the way that I've seen it is, I've just been kind of plateauing for a year, and sort of, I'm kind of holding place in between when I get back into school, you know what I mean? Financially, socially, I mean just, it's a, just very much like a preparatory period for something else, but it seems not anything more than that, really. You know what I mean? (therapist affirms) [00:14:16]

I feel like if I didn't go back to school and I stayed in this... thing, I would kind of just... just keep gliding, kind of month to month, you know, with very little kind of growth or development or something, you know? I don't know. That's the way I feel, at least. (therapist affirms) I feel like I'll get back into school, and I'll be right back into this current that I'm used to, and it will be bringing me towards greener pastures, or something. (therapist acknowledges) You know, do I make sense?

THERAPIST: Yeah! No, it's a different, no, no, I definitely... it's a different feel, yeah. There is like a... current is a good way to put it. You kind of jump on and it takes you somewhere. [00:15:17]

CLIENT: Yeah. The way I described it Kaley (ph), I was talking to her the other day, is that like this year there is no, I don't have like the dialectical process that I had when I was in school, where there was this very heavy sort of thing over me that was very overbearing and admittedly, like, stressful and even like guilt-invoking at times. But it led to me, it led me to do things that I'm not doing now. You know, like, I'm not reading the way that I used to read, I'm not learning new things every day the way that I was learning, you know? (therapist acknowledges) Like, I explained it to her, like, when I get back to school in September, I'm going to get a bunch of syllabi, that's going to be my instructions for the month. I'm going to have... you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) In ways that I don't have now. [00:16:22]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Assigned readings, yeah. Right.

CLIENT: And I look forward to that, you know? (therapist affirms) Just kind of weird, because I think that I was really looking to get out of that when I was in school. But the absence of it is just very kind of... (pause) I don't know. I could stay at home all day and watch TV and nothing happens (chuckles), you know what I mean? Like, there is not, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I'll look forward to getting back into that.

THERAPIST: Umm. I see, I see.

CLIENT: I mean, I guess if I was to look back upon this year, sometime in the future, what would probably stand out to me as the most kind of valuable and significant thing would be the stuff that we did here, being able to come here twice a week, you know? Being able to make that a big thing. (pause 00:17:36 to 00:17:51)

THERAPIST: What's going on?

CLIENT: No, I'm just thinking just of... (pause) just how odd it is, like the sense of... comfort I'll have. Just like what's in that, like, what's the, what's driving that kind of desire for me to get back into that type of lifestyle again, you know? In a way that will make me feel more fulfilled or something than this, you know what I mean? It seems... I don't know. (pause)

THERAPIST: What do you think? Yeah, what do you think? [00:19:06]

CLIENT: I don't know. It's bringing up these thoughts that are kind of similar to like... these feelings of, like the way that I described to you a little while ago. Like the feelings that I have, or not with feelings, but the, kind of just the impression that I have of my relationship with my dad as being very kind of unfinished, or unresolved or not concluded, or something, you know what I mean? A work in progress, something that has yet to reach its "telos" or final form or something, you know what I mean?

In a way, that's very much just like how I feel about myself. And I see, like, getting back into school will just, by design, continue that work for me, you know what I mean? (therapist acknowledges) It will... put me back onto the train that will bring me farther away from here, and toward something else. You know what I mean? Does that make any sense to you?

THERAPIST: Yeah. With your dad, what's, what's the way with your dad? [00:20:40]

CLIENT: (pause) I don't know, it's that, it's just this, it's... I don't know. It's just something that, I don't know, I might try to think about it, get it in like a split half-second in my mind, and it just makes a lot of sense in like a feeling, but not even that. You ever get that? You ever feel like that about things? You know? And leads it (ph) to making, like so much sense in your mind, but then when you actually try to talk about it, it's (therapist acknowledges) ... you wonder if you actually had anything at all there, or something? I mean...

(pause) The idea that then... what I think about, I guess it's easier for me to think about it with school and easier for me, I guess, to try to make sense of it like that, and then I just try to think about the similarity with my dad, but... Like, when I think about me being back in school... (pause) it's like, yeah, I'm going to go to school and there are going to be this process and I'm going to change. Then there is going to be a different, like a different "me" on the other end of that, which is completely different; which is just another way to say, like, I won't be like this. You know what I mean? I see the time when I'm not still doing this, you know what I mean? Like when this ends. Which is like... [00:22:47]

THERAPIST: This.. the therapy?

CLIENT: No, not the therapy. When I say "this," I don't really know what I mean, but... when this something is done, and I can start living. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Huh! Uh-huh...

CLIENT: I don't know. I just see myself just kind of happy and relaxed and content (ph) there, or something. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Happy, relaxed, and...

CLIENT: Done! You know. Through the process, or something.

THERAPIST: Through this... some process.

CLIENT: You know? Does that make sense? It's, and then... So when I think about myself getting back into school, even though I know that in August, I'm going to be largely the same person I am now, at least it's going to be like, you know, I'm on track. (therapist affirms) I'm moving. I think, you know... Seems like (inaudible/blocked at 00:24:03)

THERAPIST: Okay. Yeah. This semester is taking you somewhere... it's going to take you somewhere where you're changed to some place where, I guess, the end goal being what, kind of some state of peacefulness? (client affirms) Less tension...

CLIENT: Yeah! I... (pause) Yeah, I don't know. I'm having a hard time thinking of something else to make of it, but... (pause) Well, no. I guess this is helpful, right? Because that's... I feel like a similar feeling of like, unresolve, of unfinished-ness in both kind of like, the way I see myself now, I can get into that. And also with the way that I feel about my relationship with my dad, you know? But whereas with me in school, I feel that there is this thing with school which is really comforting, because it's this thing that I have got now and it's going do the work for me or something almost, you know? [00:25:30]

I just have to go and submit to it, and then I'm going to get to the other end of it and it's going to be different. What I guess I don't feel that, I don't see anything that apparent when it comes to my dad to like, apply some kind of... You know, school would do that work to me, and it will get me to that other side. But I see nothing like that for my dad and me. I see just indefinite extension of this, you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) Of this type of dynamic. It doesn't seem to resolve, you know? Like it's just going to remain the status quo or something, between me and him. [00:26:21]

Even as I get older now, you know, like I'm out of college; it's odd to me that like, that underlying dynamic seems largely to have not shifted much, you know? Like I might as well be 13 again, or something when I'm dealing with him. (pause) And that's it; it's young, it's feeling like a kid who's feeling like an adult. Like after school, I'm going to be a professional, I'm going to be an adult. I mean, just so far beyond this shit, you know what I mean? (therapist acknowledges) It's kind of crude almost, just to like, it's something you would be grown-up or something, but it's like that, you know? It's like...

THERAPIST: What's associated with growing up and all that? What...?

CLIENT: I'm not going to, I'm not going to be a kid anymore. I mean, I think I used that phrase already to describe it to you. Like, when I have, like with that interaction with my dad, I just like felt like a kid again, you know? (therapist acknowledges) I felt like I was... like I was nine again, you know? When you're nine and your parents yell at you, you do what they say, you know what I mean? What you say to yourself is, "Someday, I'm not going to live here and I'm not going to have to listen to you, I'm not going to have to care about what you say. I'm going to be able to not be subject to that," you know what I mean? But when I do feel subject to it, like I still do, when I say I'm still terrified of it, it makes me feel like I'm not grown-up, makes me feel... [00:28:12]

THERAPIST: You're back in that place.

CLIENT: Makes me feel young, yeah, makes me feel not strong, you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) That make sense? I guess school is like the most adult thing you could imagine in that respect, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah. To hop on that kind of current is to kind of wind up in a place where you feel... yeah, buoyed by a sense of adulthood.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) There is a crazy comfort that comes with just knowing that I'm going to school. Like, in a way, prior to that, when I didn't know if I was going to go to school, I felt very... admissions at school, when I didn't know that I was going to be going back to school in August. I had a great deal of anxiety about what was happening, you know what I mean? It was this lack of form (therapist affirms) that was really, really... I mean, it was almost like vertigo invoking, you know? It was like really, really uncomfortable to think about, you know? [00:30:06]

THERAPIST: Yeah. What, the vertigo... what?

CLIENT: It was just, I didn't even want to look at it, because it was just... overwhelming, you know? (pause) I think just because I didn't see anything that suggested that... I didn't see anything that seemed like it was going to affect some change. You know, like school is a train away from here and now, you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) And I see a "me" on the other side of it that is just so different, you know? That's so much more adult, that's so much not me, you know? Before that, I just saw this endless plateau of "now," you know? And it was... I guess it's suggestive of how much I am not interested in "this" anymore, you know what I mean? (therapist acknowledges) It's a salvatory, it's like a salvific type of thing, you know? It's an escape, or something, you know what I mean? [00:31:30]

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's, well, it's like one of those things that, it seems to me, you'll be able to escape from something and, but also an advance toward something as well.

CLIENT: But in a way, I guess the only thing that I... (pause) Yeah, it's an advance toward something, but the only way I think about it now is in the sense that it's not here it's coming (ph) (blocked)

THERAPIST: It's not here yet.

CLIENT: I don't have many other thoughts about it.

THERAPIST: Yeah, no, I remember, I mean, it brings me back to our discussions about, you know, the possibility of, you were thinking about, you know, PhD programs, you were thinking about while you're still, yeah, you were still thinking about school then, too and... (pause) I remember, you know, I kind of remember you grappling to try to find, you know, what was the direction that made sense, but looking for one and feeling like you really want, you know... Yeah, I guess it does kind of bring me back to that time where there must have been a lot of kind of uncertainty in the air for you about what was next. [00:33:05]

(pause) (client affirms) Or wanting, more like uncertainty in that it was remedied, I think, by trying to find what's, what's next. But something in that uncertainty was, I think, maybe making you feel like adrift in a, or the worry that you'd become too adrift or...

CLIENT: Yeah. Not have a "next," not having a next step, not having a connecting flight. (therapist affirms) You know what I mean? (pause) And it's right, I mean that in a way, I think that that old, that's not, or I guess in ways, I can see it as being similar to the pattern of thought that I think I was pretty aware of, like even in like undergrad and in high school. You know, this pattern that I spoke to you about where like, I don't feel good, this is, you know, but it's going to change once I get out of high school, and I don't have to live at home. [00:34:28]

Then I was in college, and it's like, "This is going to change when I get out of college; then it's going to be over. It's going to change when I'm done with my thesis. It's going to be over," you know what I mean? I was constructing these little... you know, these little walls that on the other end, you know, a brand new day awaits, type of thing. It gave me something to reach for and it... yeah. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, no. Yeah, no.

CLIENT: It's like it's (inaudible at 00:34:58/blocked) something constructing another one, in a way.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And it sounds like... one thing that you've been, kind of... maybe it's been more tied with your dad in some ways, but this feeling of being... not wanting to feel like that sort of childlike, kind of childlike kind of way, maybe?

CLIENT: Yeah, that's why I'm not going to feel it, you know?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh, uh-huh, you're not going to feel it.

CLIENT: I think I was frustrated because I felt similar things with Kaley (ph) when I was working on my thesis. I think I put a lot of stock in what it was going to be like after graduation, you know? That's what made it bearable, to keep pushing through, because I could see an end for it, I could see an end game, you know? Light at the end of the tunnel kind of thing, you know?

Yeah, it's not wanting to feel... You know what I mean, I guess I would even just shift it and say like, not as if I want to keep avoiding feeling childish, but like, I want to not feel childlike anymore, you know? Because, like I am feeling that, that is what I feel. You know, it's not like I want to find ways to keep avoiding that. That's where I... [00:36:22]

THERAPIST: That's where you're feeling, yeah. (pause 00:36:25 to 00:36:43) It reminds, I guess it kind of brings to, brings... what one thing that I think, maybe, captures both some qualities of Kaley (ph) and your father at the same time are this kind of like, this conflict that I feel that's somehow to me seems to be (if not at the heart of it, an important part of it), which is that you both, I think you feel like you're on the one hand, wanting, looking for something from them. Wanting some sort of input, connection in some way. I think in, maybe in some way to, I think trying to... get a sense of how they see you, how they, what they feel about you, how they take you as a person, as somebody that they're kind of mentoring in some way. Then at the same time, there are also like, "I want to be free of that, I want to be free of that as well. I want to have my own mind, I want to have my own..." Where you're not beholding to that, to how they might view you. Is that...?

CLIENT: Yeah. No, yeah. Yeah. I don't want to... I want to get affirmation from people that make me feel great, that make me feel valuable, that make me feel good about myself, you know? But, and then when I get it, and at times when I feel like I'm losing it, I'm just very frustrated that I can't just feel good about myself on my own. (therapist acknowledges) You know, particularly when I feel like it's in jeopardy, and I feel so incapable of feeling just solid and okay. (therapist affirms) I feel like I'm just being pulled every which way. In a way, that feels very just... powerless. (therapist strongly affirms) Then it's like, yeah. [00:39:14]

I come to resent myself for feeling so incapable of not, just being able to feel that for myself. Which I guess, in my mind, I assume that's what most other, like, well-adjusted folks do, you know? (pause) You know, and in a way, I mean, that's very much like the dialectical thing I'm talking about, you know? Having that, those set of eyes, like, over you, scrutinizing what you're doing and then telling you how you did. Like, because this year, I didn't have a lot, in many, many ways, huge aspects of my life did not have that at all. (therapist affirms) I would have been free to, you know, like he, because if it, when I was in college and I wanted to say, "You know what, I'm just going to stop. I'm just purely going to think about this based upon how I feel I'm doing," you know? My own evaluation of my work and progress. I couldn't do it, because I was still going to get papers back, you know what I mean? [00:40:32]

THERAPIST: Yeah, right.

CLIENT: But, like, and this part, this time in my life, I mean, like, huge, huge sections of my life are completely autonomous from any... to the effect that I could stay at home for days and watch TV when I know I sh (ph)... you know, but it, and then it, but then it's frustrating because I... (pause) I... (pause) I don't feel great about it, you know? I have the opportunity to really, maybe say, "Now I can maybe exert some more control over this stuff," but it doesn't really happen. It just, when that, then it just plateaus.

THERAPIST: Yeah, plateau, yeah.

CLIENT: And now, here I am now, I'm really eager to want to get back in that, you know? (therapist acknowledges) That's the way that I see it, that's... [00:41:43]

THERAPIST: Well, yeah, because I think it is a dialectic in a way. I mean, that you're grappling with, that I think, I guess everybody is. It's like, you have to, you know... how do you retain a sense of your own kind of, your own, kind of a sense of ownership and authority in yourself while simultaneously, it seems to me, like, trying to take something from the world, you know? Like, going to school is. You're obviously going to be, you're opening yourself up for influence, to be influenced, to be taught, to be trained, to be whatever! And yet, I think that the idea they have is that, that's going to actually promote a sense of your own authority and independence and stuff.

But it certainly, it will involve the taking from something. And I think that's kind of what it seems to me like you felt was complicated about Kaley (ph) and complicated about your father is, that's not been an easy thing, to feel like you're both taking from something without it feeling kind of like it's... like when you take some feedback, it can often feel like, the way you would describe it was if you ended up feeling like very much like I'm beholding to them in some way, beholding, I feel... [00:43:10]

CLIENT: It was like that moment when I was waiting for Mitchell (ph) to respond when I told him (inaudible at 00:43:17/blocked) (therapist strongly affirms and blocks) I was yet to be... he was able to determine the value of me then, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. And I was thinking about what it meant then, too, for you to bring up the whole idea around, you know, what if I have to take, go down to 2 to 1? You know, what is that going to mean? You try to...

CLIENT: I mean, you're in that class, in a way. I mean, you're one of those... you're one of those, you know, in your own way, but yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: (pause) You know? You know what I mean? (therapist affirms) You're definitely... those that I have, it's (ph) definitely find a way into my reactions here, you know? [00:44:15]

THERAPIST: Yeah, in a way, you're looking at it either (ph) way. I mean, on the one hand, who wouldn't want to ask their, you know, their therapist, like, "Well, what do you think about it?" At the same time, also, you wanting to be able to find what's in you, what you think as well, and it being complicated by like... I mean, I almost felt like, and maybe it's worth talking about more, it's like, this kind of sense of you turning it to me. You turn it to me pretty quickly, in that trying to figure it out, as we're... I don't know if it's too quickly, you know...

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:44:58/blocked) words too quickly, but quickly. I mean in my mind, I would just say, you know, like the way that I described some stuff with Kaley (ph) even like.... You know, "Just tell me, just tell me what you want me to do; (therapist chuckles) I'll do it," you know? Because that's what I'm just going to try and figure out anyways, you know what I mean? So, let's just avoid the possibility of me doing what I think you want me to do, but it's not, and it's just... yeah. That's what I want to ask of people sometimes, all the time, you know? Like, because that's what I want (chuckles), you know? Most honestly. What do I want to do? I want, that's what I want to do.

THERAPIST: Now there is something important in that, very important about that. [00:45:55]

CLIENT: (pause) I'm aware of it enough to want to hide it, right?

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah! Yeah, I feel silly when I say that... you know?

THERAPIST: I see. Well, there are a lot of links to your father in this. I mean, not to say it's exclusive to that, but... The need to read him, and understand where he's coming from...

CLIENT: Yeah. I feel like I'm relatively precocious when it comes to my dad.

THERAPIST: Yeah, what are you asking (ph)?

CLIENT: Sorry?

THERAPIST: What, yeah. What are you...?

CLIENT: I feel like I am. I feel like... I feel like that I've learned to be very attuned and pick up on things such that I can re-access and it's, yeah. (therapist affirms) I definitely, I think, do that with people. (pause) Yeah. Well, I don't want to be eating up your morning here, but... [00:46:23]

THERAPIST: (sighs) Well, so, Thursday, then?

CLIENT: Right, cool. Thursday. That's wonderful. I'll try to, hopefully by then, I should be able to have some more info, just about the healthcare plan and stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah, you'd think they'd patch it on-line somewhere.

CLIENT: Yeah, they left me a message, but I wasn't able to call them back again until this morning. You know, the other thing, too, is that hopefully I should be able to... budget whatever I have to get you by August and to what I budget for next year (inaudible/blocked at 00:47:57)

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah, okay. (inaudible at 00:48:02) they cover it, okay. That's part of what they do to, (inaudible)

CLIENT: Well, they say this is what you're allowed (ph), this is the maximum you can get, figure out if you want to take out less.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay. Right, right, right.

CLIENT: So. Okay, see you on Thursday.

THERAPIST: See you Thursday.

END TRANSCRIPT