TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Alrighty.

CLIENT: How are you doing?

THERAPIST: Good. Hey listen. Just I want to let you know about my plans for the summer. I'm going to be away the week of, well starting July fourth through July fourteenth.

CLIENT: Okay. I can just write this down right now. From July fourth to July fourteenth?

THERAPIST: Yeah, so last day here is the third of July and the first day back is Monday the fifteenth. Yeah, Wednesday, July third is my last day and then first day back is Monday, July fifteenth.

CLIENT: Alright. (pause) So July fourth you're gone and July fifteenth you're back? [00:01:25]

THERAPIST: Yes. (pause)

CLIENT: Cool. Oh man. (pause) I've been tired. I've been very tired today. I left work early just because I was really tired and I came out here. (pause) I've been feeling very (pause) I don't know how to put it. (pause) Really kind of, I don't know if agitated is the word to use, but noticeably a little bit more (pause) frustrated or upset with people. [00:02:55]

I don't really know. That doesn't really seem to capture it. But I've been finding myself getting really frustrated with people lately. I'm trying to communicate a little more directly and sort of feeling that much more acutely. Over the last week I feel like, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's just kind of weird. I'm feeling kind of very confident.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? It's bizarre because in a way it feels kind nice, but in a way it feels kind of I guess sort of different too. [00:03:52]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? But (pause) I don't know. In a way I feel like I've just been kind of at the end of my rope with people. I don't know. Just even like talking with my Dad or my Mom, I just seem to have a lot less (pause) I don't know. I'm having a hard time putting it into words. Like it's not like I have less patience with them or something but, I don't know, I just found myself being a lot more kind of direct and to the point.

Like I'll give you an example, you know, there's this one kid I used to be friends with. He's had this piece of musical equipment of mine for a long time. Like this amp that I used to have when I played guitar when I was much younger. And he had been holding on to it for a really long time. [00:05:04]

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: And I reached out to him over a month ago and I was saying to him like, "I know you've been hanging onto this for a long time and it was cool that you did so, but I need to sell it." I said, "Maybe I'm going to need some money." You know? And, "I'm going to need to work something out. If you don't want to buy it off me that's cool but, if not, I'm going to have to get it back from you and I'm going to have to sell it on the Internet or something." This is just like one example.

And for a while he was really kind of not getting back to me and really taking his time. Really sort of being very kind of evasive about it. And at first I was very kind of much tiptoeing around it. You know? But then over the last week and a half or something I've just been getting like really angry at him about it.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: You know? And just being really, really like direct and aggressive with him about it. And just telling him, "You know, you're really pissing me off right now. Like I turned down other offers to sell this thing to other people because I wanted to make this work out with you. And you're really making me regret that and I don't appreciate feeling like, you know, someone that I used to consider a friend is blowing me off or something." [00:06:35]

You know? But just in a way that I never really would have handled it before.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? And even with my Dad or something. (pause) Or, you know, like my Mom. You know, she was having this, she did, you know, another one of her things where she was trying to get me to call my grandparents and stuff. And it was just really frustrating me and I was just really, really direct with her about it. And it's kind of chilling because I kind of see people really react to it. Like really, really clearly. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like even my Mom and Dad haven't called me in like a week. You know? Which, in a way, I actually really like. I feel like I've put some distance or something between them. Do you know what I mean? Or I've sort of laid claim to some terrain between us. And like they heard me and they're responding to it or something. You know? [00:07:52]

But (pause) I don't know if this is making sense to you. But it's just a little weird because I don't really understand why I've been feeling so (pause) agitated or something?

THERAPIST: What do you think?

CLIENT: I don't know. I really don't know. Like I really don't know if it is something as simple as like maybe here we've been working on me trying to figure out how do I put forward my concerns and feelings and things that I feel like I need into relationships. Like how do I feel comfortable doing that? Do you know what I mean? And if now I'm doing it or something. You know? I don't know if it's that simple. Do you know what I mean? Because I feel like that's like a big thing that we've been talking about. You know? [00:08:59]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like how do I find a way to get around the practice of just feeling like I can't impose any of my feelings onto someone else. Do you know what I mean? I don't know if it has something to do with that. Maybe it does. I don't know. (pause)

THERAPIST: Well I think too Oh, go ahead.

CLIENT: No, I don't know. I guess I just wanted say it's really weird because it feels good in a way. It feels good to I don't know. It feels empowering on some level to feel something and to just sort of act upon it and then feel like it was sort of acknowledged and responded to. [00:10:04]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It was accepted.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: You know? But it's very unnerving. You know? It's very (pause) It creates a dynamic that I'm not used to with people. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Unfamiliar?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: It's unfamiliar. And it feels like, yeah, I don't know. But I've been very like at the end of my rope with a lot of people. You know? Even at work, like at P.F. Chang's, I've just been very kind of like to the point with some of my managers where I felt like they were just sort of jerking me around or something. You know? [00:11:17]

In a way that I kind of like because P.F. Chang's (ph) is just sort of cornered off and it's like a separate part of my life or something. Do you know what I mean? It doesn't seem to I don't really have a lot invested in that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean? So if that crashed and burned I wouldn't really care.

THERAPIST: Yeah, you can be more comfortable -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: experimenting or whatever, if you want to put it that way.

CLIENT: I don't have as many chips on the table.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. Okay.

CLIENT: But with things like, you know, my parents and my friends and stuff, it just feels very different. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah. And even I remember kind of thinking about it like money-wise, thinking to myself, "God, maybe I've kind of bitten off more than I could chew here moneywise." You know? Maybe I need to just stop doing this twice a week or something. [00:12:33]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know? I've been playing around with fantasies like that. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But, yeah, I guess I don't know if I trust it. You know? Because sometimes I feel confident about that. You know? Like I look at my money and I'm like, "Oh, you know, I'll be able to scrounge together the money for this." But it's like, you know, it's tight. You know? And in my head I'm just like, "No. I need to not do that."

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: Because I need to do that to feel comfortable. Do you know what I mean? But I don't know. I almost sort of like see it as like a secondary thought process that I can almost remove myself from and then second guess or something.

THERAPIST: You'll second guess which part of it?

CLIENT: Everything about it. The conclusion. Should I act upon that? [00:13:38]

THERAPIST: So you're second guessing yourself saying, "I should cut back."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: Yeah. Because I'm saying I should cut back because it's financially kind of stressful for me to organize how I'm going to pull together the money for this consistently. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I guess that's what it's stemming from, is thinking about it purely from me on a day to day financial basis. Which is a different way to think about it as opposed to thinking about just making it work.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: As opposed to thinking to myself, "Is this healthy. Is this realistic."

THERAPIST: Well, yeah.

CLIENT: Do you know what mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. It seems to go along with you feeling like you were remarking last time to me. Like, "I'm putting in a lot of chips into this therapy, this (inaudible at 00:14:47)." And to me it's sort of like saying, "This isn't just about me going along with some kind prescribed treatment, but really to feel like, no, this about my life. This is about what I want to do with my life."

And if you're going to invest this you want to feel like you're getting the return on your investment. Which I think is really important for you to feel.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: You know, as opposed to it feeling like, "Well, I'm supposed to have this good therapy experience and this is what I'm supposed to do, so I'll figure out a way to come up with the money." I don't know if that's how you meant it.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like the fact that you thought it would make sense for me to be here twice a week meant that it made sense for me to literally -

THERAPIST: It made sense.

CLIENT: like beg, borrow or steal to make it happen.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And, yeah, it's just a very different way for me think about evaluating. Even to look at it from like, "What is it for me on a day to day basis?" Like can I? Yeah. Just like pulling up that [access and actually asking the question] (ph). [00:16:10]

THERAPIST: Well, and really look at it.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. It's a different way for me to think about it.

THERAPIST: No, yeah, I see what you're saying. That's very important. (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know why. I guess I've just been thinking a lot like that over the last, I don't know, I think like the last week and a half or something. I don't know. And, I don't know, it feels very different.

THERAPIST: It does to me too. It feels different.

CLIENT: Does it?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, the way you're talking to me.

CLIENT: How?

THERAPIST: Well I think it's seems to me to reflect something that you were bringing up last time about you saying to me, "Listen, I need this. I need you to be better." And in some way it was a break from, I think, a way that you can feel often like (sigh) I want to put it like in some way that you feel like things have got to be cool between people. You know? [00:17:16]

And maybe things have to be kind of cool between us in a certain way. Not to have me kind of feel Well in some way you kind of put, in talking about what you talked about on Tuesday, I mean Monday, you were able to kind of like, it seemed to me, have some time there, some space there to kind of get out of that mindset where you're feeling like, I'm just going along with some plan, some story about what you should be doing and how you should be doing it. And really inserting yourself into what you want.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I don't if that -

CLIENT: Yeah, from what I understand in the way you put that I guess one way to think about what I communicated to you. Like wanting this to be better. I guess a way to think about it would be, what that broke from was me feeling like I had to consistently be better here. Which I think is really like what was going on here. [00:18:21]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like [in particular] (ph) the conversation about performing here and being like class or something. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Uh huh.

CLIENT: I think that that's what captures that feeling (ph) at some level.

THERAPIST: I think it's also been something that you've been getting at with your Dad in some ways. You know? In some ways of bringing up some element you see in him that you've always seen, and by extension other people, what it's meant to kind of really, you know, convey to him your impression of him. Not just his impression of you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: In a very kind of way that's between you two. You know? It's really -

CLIENT: Uh huh. Yeah. So, I mean, I guess on some level it's probably good probably. To be able to experiment with this kind of stuff. [00:19:21]

THERAPIST: Yeah. It also seems to me that it's not an experiment, you're real about it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Monday was, I felt like you were really saying something.

CLIENT: I don't know. I guess I feel like I'm in some manic state that I'm going to withdraw from or something and return back to what seems more normal. And I'm going to be left with some wake of decisions that I'm going to have to then be responsible for or something.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean? I don't know. I see it as like taking on responsibility or something. That's just the way I see these things when I put that onto people. You know?

THERAPIST: Taking on responsibility?

CLIENT: Like when I say that to you like, "I want this to be better." (pause) I don't know. I guess I feel like when I do stuff like that it means then I have to be more perfect now or something to justify wanting that or something, or to expecting that of you or something. Do you know what I mean? I don't know. That's just the way That's what makes me feel uncomfortable about that stuff. [00:20:49]

THERAPIST: Now you've got to step up in some way?

CLIENT: Yeah. It obligates me to more.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: I don't know. That's just the way I always think about it. That's what it always feels like.

THERAPIST: Hm. More in what way? [You know, with me.] (ph)

CLIENT: I don't know. Like if something in the future happened, then if it was like I don't know. Like then let's say next week or something I decided I really want to just start doing this once a week for the reasons we spoke about. Then it would just be like, "Yeah, you asked for more from me. How can you do that now." Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: Like I feel like, I don't know, like it comes with obligations or something.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It comes with I don't know. I don't know. (pause) [00:21:55]

THERAPIST: Yeah. What are you feeling? Like it's some sort of contract you've signed?

CLIENT: Sort of, yeah.

THERAPIST: How so? So, yeah, if like let's say you sort of thinking it would play out maybe in the way of you just asked me for more and then you want to cut back or something.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (inaudible at 00:22:30)

CLIENT: I don't I don't (pause) Oh, It's so hard because it's like a little thought patterns that I feel like I've played out like a million times in my head but I seem I don't know. I guess I almost feel like it could just be like obvious or something. (pause) I don't know. Because then I would be asking you to be doing something that, (pause) I don't know, I would then be responsible for or something. I don't know. [00:23:46]

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean? Some level of, I don't know, I guess like intimacy or like getting deeper or something that I now would be wedded to.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Or then have to, you know, calculate time and energy towards in like a reciprocal way or something. I don't know. It just it seems like increasing the propensity for me to irresponsible or something. Maybe then I would be asking for more than I'd be giving or something. I'd then turn into (inaudible at 00:24:33) or something in a way that I feel like I'm constantly trying to not -

THERAPIST: Like if I'm giving more then you better be matching me at least.

CLIENT: Yeah. And that's like the risk. That's the weight of things not being comfortable or -

THERAPIST: Ah.

CLIENT: me then ultimately then hurting you or something. Or me being selfish.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I don't know. I don't know. (pause) I don't know. I guess it's just I'm not Like on some level I think, "Yeah, I think the fact that I want something should be, (pause) should be reason enough," or something. Because I desire something or because I feel something. Like when I was with my Dad like the fact that it pissed me off the way that played out just didn't seem to register for anything on its own. Do you know what I mean? [00:25:55]

Like that issue with my Dad when I was working with him. He really just pissed me off that regardless of how he wanted to twist it logically, like the fact that it really bothered me didn't seem to resonate with him.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: That didn't seem to be a reason for concern just in and of itself. You know? And in a way, over the last week, it felt good to just be like, "This is pissing me off and I'm going to act upon it." And, yeah, that's going to kind of be reason enough. You know?

But then at the same time (pause) I don't know, I feel like my more traditional way of thinking is like, I don't know if like the things that I feel and want are necessarily like I'm not really sure what comes from them or something. I'm not really sure what comes from me putting that stuff onto my Mom. Like I don't really want to talk to my grandparents (ph). Like I don't want you telling me how to deal with my family. Like I don't know what follows from that. [00:27:20]

THERAPIST: What's going to happen after that down the road.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And in a way I think it's both the case that I think it's important because I feel it, but also I'm skeptical of it because I'm unsure of it.

THERAPIST: Well I think you're walking on kind of more unfamiliar ground. Is that part of it?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like -

THERAPIST: Unfamiliar terrain.

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm putting toothpaste out of the tube that -

THERAPIST: And you can't put it back.

CLIENT: I can't put it back into. Do you know what I mean? And that's, yeah. And it's, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, once it's been out it's not going to go back in. Right?

CLIENT: Yeah. You know?

THERAPIST: How is the world going to react.

CLIENT: Yeah. Or, yeah. Or what am I doing to the world.

THERAPIST: What are you doing to the world.

CLIENT: That I don't even Maybe, yeah, I feel good for doing that with my Mom. I don't know what her I don't know. Maybe it has been keeping her up at night.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Crying or something. I don't know. I wouldn't know. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I don't know. Maybe you were really, really bothered by what I said to you last week. [00:28:31]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And the prospect of me leaving and feeling great because I did this thing that I was thinking and wanted to do, and just totally turned a blind eye to the way that maybe it played out with you. I mean, it's sort of a disconcerting possibility in and of itself that, who knows? You know? And I never would know.

THERAPIST: Like you're leaving scorched earth or something?

CLIENT: Yeah. And I never would know. You know? I think it's really unlikely. You know? But it's in that sense. You know? I don't know. It's probably like my Dad. It's like what my Dad probably did in some ways. He's just really good at it -

THERAPIST: Ah.

CLIENT: putting his interests up there and acting on them. You know, it's just I'm thinking of an example, you know, of where I know something like that happened. And I feel like that's the case. You know? With my Dad. [00:29:36]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It was definitely possible to leave a wake of destruction behind. You know?

THERAPIST: And not see it, not recognize and not be perturbed by it.

CLIENT: Or it doesn't have to be the case that it, just because it feels good, it feels like you're doing something good for yourself, like that has no connection to how it impacts other people or something. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So, I don't know. And that's what I feel like I'm taking on is the prospect for these consequences. Do you know what I mean? That I can then be responsible for and have to deal with. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And it feels like a lot of weight. You know? (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of weight?

CLIENT: Yeah. A lot of stuff to ponder over. [00:30:48]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like when I'm about to fall asleep at night. You know?

THERAPIST: Like, "What have I kind of done today?"

CLIENT: Yeah. Like a lot of checkboxes -

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: that I won't be able to definitively check of or not check off. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And like that certainty, it feels very different from the certainty of coming here and knowing that I've done everything I can to try to like catch every curve ball possible. You know, such that like if things went sour or something here, I would be able to say, "There's nothing else that I could have done." Like me saying what I said to you last appointment disrupts that big time.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And that's the way I think about things more frequently than not.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And how does it disrupt things?

CLIENT: Because if things went sour right now it could maybe be like, "Man, maybe I tried to take more out of this than I put into it," or something. Because I came in here and I said, "I want this and I want that. And this isn't good enough." [00:32:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And maybe that over reached. You know? Whereas if I kept that to myself or just thought about it the other way around and just thinking like, "How can I try to be better? How can I try to be the best that I can?" You know? "How can I just eat as much stuff as I can?" Then if shit goes awry, the one sort of consolation is I kind of did everything I could type of thing. You know? Like that's literally the way I think about things a lot.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah.

CLIENT: But I'd like to be able to fall back on this conclusion that even if things end up really nasty, like it couldn't have been me or something.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I'm the sacrificial lamb or something that just kind of Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And that's really the way I feel like I think about things. Like, "I did everything I could." You know? [00:33:02]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I didn't -

THERAPIST: You didn't leave the oven on.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, I checked a million times. You know? Even if then if it happened, you know, I would be able to say that I did not forget to check.

THERAPIST: Yup.

CLIENT: Because it's literally that type of thing. You know? And it's almost similar to me, like when I'm leaving here, wanting to say to you like, "Oh this was really great." Like it's a similar like checking type thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's a similar like trying to keep that, throw that out there. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like touch the bases before I leave or something.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that way it's so much the fear of the house burning down as much as it's that you would be the one that caused the house to burn down.

CLIENT: Completely. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Completely. Completely. In a way, it's completely immaterial if the house burns down or not.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know? I have no concern when I leave the house to go back during the day to see if something fell off the counter and turned it on. That's not it. It's a completely different rung (ph). It's just purely what And if I don't check when I leave the house it's a similar type of weight of a possibility of having a consequence that I'm taking on that I then have to possibly, you know, stand trial for or something. [00:34:30]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: And it feels similar when I do stuff like that when I was in here last time with you. I'm opening up all these, "I don't knows." You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Yeah, right.

CLIENT: Even when I do this stuff with my parents and stuff. You know?

THERAPIST: How's it going to shake out? What is it going to mean? And will it, yeah, will it cause some, you know, disruption to happen? And if it does what will you feel? You know, what will that mean to you if something goes awry? Will it be your fault? And if it's your fault, what will it all implicate you?

CLIENT: Yeah. That's it. That's always the way that I think about it, which feels kind of cowardly and kind of dishonest in a way. (pause) Because it's always just trying to keep my hands clean. It seems very selfish almost in a way when I think about it sometimes. Because my concern is not for the well-being of the house, it's such that it can burn down without me being the one that did it. You know? [00:35:50]

THERAPIST: Well, maybe to put it another way, it's like it feels to me like something inside of you would burn down if you were one that was responsible for it. (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. It's my responsibility. It's my, yeah. Yeah, it seems all directed towards being able to let me fall asleep at night or something. Like me not having some guilt for something.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I'm literally thinking about this stuff like fifty steps ahead. You know, like even when I was having that conversation with you. Like, what does this mean now then like if -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: you know, next month I have to stop coming. Like, geez, God, maybe I'm already asking too much from you with what's going on with the money. You know? Maybe the scales are already tipped. You know? Because even the money thing was a similar type thing. Like I like the scales to be like the complete opposite of that. You know, like me eating as much of the negative as possible. Do you know what I mean? [00:37:17]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. (pause) Yeah. That it's better for you to be on the end of somehow not wanting to Well I guess I'm thinking back to the conversation around the whole deductible thing. And in some way it seemed like you had some feelings about that. And yet it was hard for you to feel like It was hard for you to kind of get into that area where you might have felt, you know, frustrated about how it came out or how I handled it. (pause) [00:38:25]

CLIENT: I think I was frustrated with you because by the time I figured that out it made it inevitable that I already would have not paid you for so long. You know? When I would have literally like begged, borrowed and stealed to have tried to not let that happen. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: Like I couldn't even worry about it.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: Like it was the idea that I was in here for a whole month, and you were thinking about it and I wasn't. And I wasn't worrying about it.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: And it made me feel uncomfortable. You felt like I overlooked something or something. Do you know what I mean.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: It made me feel -

THERAPIST: [Put you in that spot, in a way.] (ph)

CLIENT: Well it made me feel like I wasn't going through the checks, the list of things that I -

THERAPIST: (laughs) Yeah.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's like someone had put an oven in my house -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: and didn't even tell me it was in the closet and I couldn't check it. [00:39:33]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I see what you're saying.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, no I see. I got it. (pause) Yeah, maybe it's not the, I mean not that there's not something significant about that that might relate to this, but maybe I was thinking about you saying, "This is a lot of the money I have right now that I'm investing in this."

And that you're kind of trying to kind of talk to me from the position less of that comfortability of being the guy that is paying out more, and doing everything he can do no matter what you're getting back. And instead going, "Wait, no, this is," something along the lines where the scales aren't so out of whack(pause) What am I doing for the money? You know, you asking me, "What am I doing for the money?" I mean, In some way. [00:40:48]

CLIENT: You?

THERAPIST: No, you asking me, what am I as your therapist doing for the You know, am I worth it?

CLIENT: I don't know if I'm asking that. I mean I've wondered that in my head.

THERAPIST: If you're asking.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I'm uncomfortable with the question to begin with. You know? Because then who am I even to suppose that I know what is and what is supposed to be going on here such that I can determine if it's not occurring or is occurring. You know? And that seems awfully bigheaded of me.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: You know? Maybe because I think about it and I'm like, "Oh man." You know, "We've been spending so much time here and even talking about putting together the logistics for me to come back the next time." You know, but then I'm like, "God, well actually maybe there's actually some really helpful things occurring throughout these conversations." Do you know what I mean? Which I think there really are. You know? (pause) [00:42:10]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Uncomfortable asking that question.

CLIENT: But I really appreciated the way that last time I was able to almost kind of like put it in a glass jar and kind of put it out in between us and say, "I'm thinking this and I'm feeling this. But I want to sort of look at it without me actually literally unleashing it."

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: You know? That's how I put it out here. I said like, "This is something I'm thinking and I feel like at times almost a compulsion to want to share it. And I want to just talk about that compulsion." As opposed to like "it" per se.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? So yeah, a lot of the times, yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, yeah, you said it to me. You know, you said it and it was direct and it was clear. And it was, you know, describing something that you really want and, you know, risked saying to me.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: It was a legitimate risk.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And it was a real demand. I mean, it's made me go, "Yeah, there's something here to think about." [00:43:40]

CLIENT: And that's, yeah. And that's the thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah. That's the thing.

CLIENT: That's then I don't know. In my head, just in my head for some reason I just keep getting this image of, you know, like when you're playing baseball and you get the bat and everyone keeps putting their hands all over it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: And then one somebody (clapping sound).

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. If I put my hand there, then you have to put your hand over it and then I have to, I don't know.

THERAPIST: What's the connection? Because that's how you choose sides or choose who goes first or something. Who bats first.

CLIENT: It's the competition. It's, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: It just feels that way.

THERAPIST: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, competition. It's somewhat adversarial or something like that.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Yeah, probably. Yeah. (pause) [00:44:58]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I found myself thinking of like it was like you lit a fire under my ass and you're worried about how much it's going to burn.

CLIENT: Yeah, no, precisely. Yeah, absolutely.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Absolutely. (pause) Yeah. And it was just something I felt and I didn't know if I was justified in feeling it, let alone justified in expecting anything from you on the basis of it. Expecting you to rearrange your life or something. Which seems dramatic but, you know, but even meaning changing what you're going to think about on the walk home or something.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like that's imposing or something. You know? [00:45:53]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, I think you want this to be important to me. You know? And make sure that I know That's one thing that kind of came out of that was like that this is something, there's something more to know about you and something that is a lot on the line to you about this. And how much you're investing and, yeah, financially but also, you know, you want some things to change. You want some things to be different. You want your life to be different.

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: And this is a shot at it. (laughs)

CLIENT: This is like my last shot at it. This is like my only hope. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. I dig (ph) that. (pause) So, yeah, I mean like almost in a way like get in the game.

CLIENT: Get in the game? [00:47:02]

THERAPIST: In that way. Know it that way and be invested in it that way. That's what came to mind to me. And yeah, I hear you. You're sort of staying when you put that out there and you say that to me and you put it to me that way, that something changes. And it's like an uncertain kind of place to be with me.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Yeah. (pause) I know it's time. I'm hesitant to -

THERAPIST: No, no, I started a little bit late. So maybe if you Where are you going?

CLIENT: No, I don't know, that feels (pause) Yeah, it's an uncomfortable thing to me to think about putting out. I don't know. It's like, am I in the game?

THERAPIST: Huh. Are you in the game. [00:48:13]

CLIENT: You know. [It's assuming that I'm ] (ph) (pause) Like it's I have no idea what you're thinking about that now. You know? I want to know what that would make you think. Like I appreciate you telling me that it made you feel like, "get in the game," or something. (pause) But it's just it seems like there's like (pause) It just seems to open up a lot of possibilities that I feel like I'm not, I don't know how to check for or something.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you've got to walk out the door without checking all the burners and all that stuff. [00:49:16]

CLIENT: Yeah, and that's a more risky -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: kind of precarious [line of thought] (ph).

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah, it is. (pause)

CLIENT: And, I mean, it does all presume that you're not doing the same thing with me. You know? That you're not I mean this is like the two different ways of like looking at the world, right? Like it presumes that you're not possibly wondering how I'm thinking as I'm leaving every single time too.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: It presumes that you're just as concerned with your own assessment based upon what makes you feel good and happy as to the same degree that I'm concerned with what makes you feel good and happy. Do you know what I mean? [00:50:19]

THERAPIST: I see. Yeah.

CLIENT: To presume that it would just be like otherwise completely irrelevant that it bothers me. That something would bother me or something could make me feel a certain way or something. Does that make sense?

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:50:42)

CLIENT: It presumes like, I don't know. It just seems to assume that I'm the only one that would actually draw any significance from me saying that I want something. That the only thing that that could do to you then would be like to conflict with something you want.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah.

CLIENT: As opposed to like that you maybe even like be (inaudible at 00:51:14) or something. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. (pause) Well.

CLIENT: Cool. Hey thanks for the few minutes.

THERAPIST: No, no.

CLIENT: So Monday.

THERAPIST: Monday.

CLIENT: Alright take care.

THERAPIST: I just realized that I kept referring to us meeting on Monday, but we didn't. It was last week.

CLIENT: Yeah, it was Tuesday and it was Monday. Yeah, it was Thursday.

THERAPIST: It was Thursday.

CLIENT: Yeah, it was a week.

THERAPIST: I didn't get that right.

CLIENT: No, you fooled me too.

THERAPIST: (laughs) Is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah, no it didn't even occur to me. Alright.

THERAPIST: Okay. Yeah.

CLIENT: Thank you so much.

END TRANSCRIPT