TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: I'll get this for you.

CLIENT: Thank you. Alright. So what were we talking about last week? Last Thursday?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: We were talking about (pause) Oh we were talking about me noticing just being kind of on edge.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: A little bit or so different in that respect. I'm just kind of thinking about that a little bit. (pause) Feeling a little more kind of forward and direct with people about some things. Having it feel a little bit different. Speculating about what I have to do here. We talked a little bit about our conversation [00:01:20]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: that we had had a little earlier too. (pause) Yeah. It's funny because I was talking about it to you the other day when I was here on Thursday that I hadn't really spoken to my parents in a while. Still neither of them have called me in like, geez, maybe close to two weeks now. Which is just like really odd that neither of them would have done so.

THERAPIST: Yeah, usually, didn't you say you used to talk to your Dad like every day.

CLIENT: Yeah, usually he would call like every day, yeah.

THERAPIST: How about your Mom? What do you usually -

CLIENT: She usually calls quite a bit. We usually get in touch every couple of days or something.

THERAPIST: And they both call you. Is that how it works.

CLIENT: Yeah, typically.

THERAPIST: Typically. [00:02:22]

CLIENT: But, yeah, neither of them have. And it was funny because I really noticed it yesterday because I was working all day yesterday, and Laney was at home and she was doing some stuff from the house and everything. She was doing some laundry. She said that while she was waiting to do the laundry that she called my Mom just to talk. Which is kind of funny.

They don't really talk too much. But she just called her just to catch up. And I was kind of saying to Laney like, "Oh, how's my Mom doing?" You know? And it was just interesting. And Laney told me things that were going on with my Mom that I didn't even know. It was kind of funny.

But (pause) yeah, I don't know. It feels really nice. It just feels nice, kind of unqualified (ph), to have them not be calling me so much. [00:03:26]

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: I don't really know exactly why.

THERAPIST: What do you notice? What is it like? Or what do you What's -

CLIENT: It feels good in that it's just I don't think of anything like any new element in what I'm feeling that feels nice. But it's just like the absence of this really annoying kind of smothering kind of obligatory thing -

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: that I feel like I have to do. It feels like when I was younger and I'd go over to a friend's house or something, like maybe when I started driving but I was still maybe sixteen or seventeen, and my Mom would say like, "Call me when you get there." Like that type of thing. You know, like this obligatory kind of nuisance that I have to kind of -

THERAPIST: Check in.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, check in. And it feels good to not do that. [00:04:46]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like it just feels so nice to not -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: talk to them. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And it's kind of, I don't know -

THERAPIST: Because it would still have that kind of feel to it in a way when you were talking more regularly that -

CLIENT: When they called and I called back it was like submitting to them or something.

THERAPIST: Oh. Oh.

CLIENT: That's what it feels like. You know.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And to not talk to them feels like the lack of that.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: And it's just purely the absence of that, I don't know, that kind of -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't know, it's really weird because when they would call they would just be like, "Oh, what's going on with you?" And then I would just tell them what I was doing. But it was just, I don't know. I didn't really want to be doing that for some reason. It's a really odd dynamic to just try to explain why it's been [inaudible 00:05:56] my parents.

And I still don't really fully understand it because it seems hard to explain it in a way that makes sense. But it definitely bothered me and I guess I feel more aware of the fact that it really bothered me than I feel able to really explain why. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Well it sounds I mean, it sounds like there's this way it seemed kind of obligatory. And not a sort of thing where you were kind of, you know, looking to share with them what happened in the day or something like that.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it sounds like a very different thing than that to you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it feels -

THERAPIST: Everything all right.

CLIENT: Yeah. It kind of just like, yeah, it just established that for us or something.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Plus Maybe we're, or maybe I'm beating this theme into the ground, but I was thinking that "everything cool." [00:07:13]

CLIENT: Yeah, everything cool. But almost like way more just for their own peace of mind.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know? Like it almost has less to with They just wanted to hear me say it or something.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Maybe just a checkmark that they can kind of check off or something.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it just seemed very disingenuous or something. And, yeah, I don't know, I just never liked doing it. It just seemed to fall into the same category of like, "Oh, do this, do that, call me back, do that." You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking about them. It's like their version of checking the stove, checking the oven.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. It was their little kind of comfort thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Their little thing. Yeah, something similar. [00:08:22]

THERAPIST: If they did it then they didn't have to worry about things (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah, it did that. Don't have to worry about Yeah, that's good. You know, I popped (ph) it in today. I did my parent thing or something. You know? I guess it frustrated me too because (laughs) it would be hard. Every time I talked to them it wouldn't be like, "Oh, everything's good."

In those conversations there was nothing else really to say, but I guess it just frustrated me constantly to just have to keep saying like, "Oh, yeah, everything is fine." I don't know, [there was something about that was] (ph) was just, you know, this compulsion to just to say that so much. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: In particular, like coming here and having conversations, and thinking about it, and thinking about things, you know, that frustrate me and stuff, and then have to pick up the phone and stop what I'm doing to call them just to say like, "Yeah, I'm happy. I'm doing well," and stuff. It was just kind of, yeah, I don't know. [00:09:28]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Something is just very disempowering about it or something. You know?

THERAPIST: In relation to this is something that might have been happening, you know, from our talks that like -

CLIENT: Yeah, I suppose. Yeah. But even outside of that though, just the fact that it was like the conversations were never You know, they were always very kind of brief and it was always something more like, never like, "How's everything going?" But more like, "Everything's good, right?"

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: You know? There's very little room even to go anywhere else.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? And it just felt it was sort of once you made the call you knew where it was going to go and you're just doing it every day for years and years and years. You know? (pause) Yeah. You know, it's funny because my Dad hasn't talked to me for a bit and I think it's pretty clear to me why. Because he still hasn't kind of come through with the money for these plane tickets. You know? [00:10:45]

Which for me, you know, it's one thing. It was a big deal when he didn't come through with the money we had paid, because then my life got maybe a little off a little bit. You know, he's going to buy the tickets, so however long he wants to wait for it, he can -

THERAPIST: Oh, you didn't buy and he's not paying you back.

CLIENT: No. He's going to give me the money and then I'm going to buy them with the money he gives me.

THERAPIST: When is the trip? When are you going?

CLIENT: It's in August. You know? And we started looking at this in January and stuff. So, I mean, it's on him. They're just going to get more expensive, but that's his thing to deal with. So I'm not too worried about that. And largely because I'm still pretty confident that it's going to happen. I'm not worried that it's not going to happen yet. Do you know what I mean? So it's just a matter of how much more money he's going to pay. And that's fine. You know, it's his commitment.

Last year, you know, I made it very clear to him if he wants to commit to this it's fine, but you've got to pay for it. You know? If Reese (ph) had the money to go to England you would have done that already. You know? (laughs) [00:11:56]

THERAPIST: So it's kind of like we'll go or not go depending upon -

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, I will gladly go, largely as a service to you and Reese (ph). I mean, I don't particularly want to go to this wedding.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean? You know, but, yeah, you're going to have to take care of the cost. And you know he extended the invitation, Reese (ph) extended it to Laney. And I made it very clear to him, I said, you know, "I won't bring this up with Laney unless it's clear that, you know, you're going to be paying for this."

And it was really even hard to kind of get that topic in the air with him. I really tried to hammer that home from a while ago, like months and months ago. Just to say very clearly on the phone like, "Before you go any further with this, and before I say to Reese that we're going to come, like you need to pay for this."

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: And he just kind of said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah." He didn't really want to get into the details of it. [00:12:59]

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: And now it's very clear that it's like You know, he sent me a text the other day, or like last week actually, and it had probably been almost a week since I had spoken to him. And he was like, you know, because the week before this he had even said, "Oh, you know, I'm going to figure out these plane tickets thing, you know, this weekend and stuff."

And he had said that a whole bunch of times and it never happened. And he sent me a text and he was like, "Yeah, you know, I'm waiting on some checks to come in," or something. And he even said, "And I sold some stocks so I'm getting money back and then I'll send that over to you. When I get the money then you can buy the tickets." You know?

CLIENT: It was just really weird the way that he phrased it.

THERAPIST: What did you -

CLIENT: I didn't really know how to text him. He didn't call, he just texted me that. You know? Which isn't a typical way for him to conversate about something. I just texted him back and I was like, "You know, sounds good Dad. You know, let me know. Sounds great." You know? [00:14:06]

But it almost seems like he wanted to communicate to me that he's selling stock or that this is like a reach for him or something. You know? He could have just said like, you know, "This is still on my radar. I'll be in touch." You know. But he decided to explain it in a way that seemed to be like, "Oh, I'm doing all this stuff." You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Or, "I'm going out of my way to try to make this work. I'm sacrificing," and stuff. You know?

THERAPIST: Oh. Okay.

CLIENT: Like he was almost trying to put that on me or something to be like, "Oh, look what I'm doing?"

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Look how much I'm sacrificing for this. And part of me wanted to play back into that and just be like, "Oh," you know, "maybe we can try to come up with some money," or something.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Which would have been my natural inclination, I feel like. But I was just like, "No, Okay. Let me know." And it's funny because I think that's why he hasn't been calling me. Because I think until he has the money for it I just think he doesn't want to talk to me. Because I think it's just like a sense of discomfort or shame or something. [00:15:25]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well I was, I guess one other thing about him saying that is that he's kind of, I don't know if he's done that in the past with you, but it seems like in a way he's telling you, "I'm in some financial bind. This isn't " I mean I understand the part about he's also telling you like, "You know, this is going to be a sacrifice for me to do this for you," quote unquote, in order to do this.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But he's also, I was thinking about it from the standpoint as well as, everything is not cool with him and money right now.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean I think, yeah. I think what he's saying is that, "I don't have a cool 2500 bucks that I can just kind of throw at you."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, which I don't think that means he has to be in, you know, a rock bottom financial situation to not have, you know, 2500 dollars to throw around. You know, but I think he's definitely saying this is a financial squeeze for me to pull this off. [00:16:28]

THERAPIST: Is that sort of typical? Are you not surprised about that with your Dad?

CLIENT: No, I'm very surprised actually. Prior to this thing that happened the other month with the money, I had never had any experience with my Dad where financially anything was squeamish or off keel or anything. Do you know what I mean?

He was always pretty reliable with me with money. You know? That was the first time that I had ever actually really considered that. You know? Compounded with that conversation with my Mom where she sort of opaquely revealed that he had been really sketchy with money with her. That was like a very new -

THERAPIST: You didn't know that?

CLIENT: way for me to look at him. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But, I mean, I was just in the same kind of way that I've just sort of had this attitude where I'm just really not concerned about it lately. I'm just kind of even frustrated with my Dad for even explaining it that way to me. For even sending me that text message and saying that stuff. [00:17:37]

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's like, "I'm not going to think about this. I don't care." You know?

THERAPIST: Oh yeah.

CLIENT: Like I don't care if this is hard for you.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: You know? I didn't, you know, have a child on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean. I didn't sort of uncritically extend an invitation to you and to your girlfriend and encourage you to go, and say "yes" to your sister months ago about this.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? Every step of the way I tried to put something up that might catch.

THERAPIST: Mm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know, the possibility that this might not be the easiest thing in the world. You know? So, I'm not going to even think about it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't care.

THERAPIST: Kind of like, don't ask me for sympathy when, you know, I've been very clear that you don't need to do this. [00:18:40]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know, don't act Yeah. Don't act shocked -

THERAPIST: Or like this is a strain on him.

CLIENT: Yeah, you know, I've have been trying to open up discussion about this for some time. But it's just so interesting to me that he just doesn't call now. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like there's this very different kind of I mean I just don't even think he would ask even like, "Is everything cool?" Because if he did I'd be like, "No, actually." You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like I had my friend Phil take a week off of work and I still don't even have tickets yet. Do you know what I mean? I'm concerned that, you know, he might not be following through on something. Do you know what I mean? I mean it's just very telling because I don't think two weeks have gone by like this for, I can't even remember, that he just hasn't called or hasn't texted or anything. You know?

Particularly even if there are times when if I didn't call him back for like two days or something, he would kind of make joking but passive aggressive comments about it on the phone. You know? [00:19:49]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? Like it's a very, very different thing for him to do. Which I suppose too probably has some residual affect with, you know, the falling out with just the work and stuff. You know? Which at the time one of the reasons too that I wanted to stop working for him was because I suspected that it was making it harder for him.

You know, now that I had this new way of actually looking at my dad as not having, you know, thinking of him in the way I did when I was probably like nine. I thought he was just infinitely resourceful and powerful and could solve any problem in the world. I actually realize that he probably has a limited supply of money. [00:20:49]

I was like, it's probably not helping the cause of getting this trip paid for by me getting a paycheck for work from him every month too. So that was one of the reasons. I felt like I could be a little bit more I could hold him to that a little bit more when I was not getting a check from him every month.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, there's something. Yeah, I don't know. There's something very, very much more less infallible about the dynamic.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: And it feels good. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: The kind of pristine kind of thing that always felt very kind of heavy. [00:21:50]

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: It's been a little disrupted or something. You know?

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: And it feels good. Like I like the fact that I can be kind of upset with my Dad a little bit. You know? It's weird. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Why? What would you say is weird?

CLIENT: I don't know. I feel weird, you know, I would feel weird saying to someone else, "I'm happy that I have " I don't know. It seems weirdly masochistic or something. It's like I'm happy that I have shit on my Dad or something.

THERAPIST: Yeah, no, it sounds more like instead of, I mean the way I'm hearing it is that, it's a recognition or acknowledgement of something that is real about your father that is able to be thought and felt. [00:23:01]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: In a way that I don't think it was when you were, I mean, nine let alone all those years after it. I think it was kind of, in my mind, kind of a collaboration on both your parts somehow to strike this deal that you wouldn't look at and think about certain things together because of like, I suspect, a lot of shame on your father's part that's kind of unconscious.

CLIENT: Mm hm. And that's what seems very telling right now.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Guilt, shame.

CLIENT: That's why he doesn't want to talk to me.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I think that's right.

CLIENT: I think he's probably just as aware as I am that over the last couple of months his own limitations -

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: to do just like basic family stuff. You know, like do what he says he's going to do.

THERAPIST: And Dan (ph), my sense is that it's a somewhat of a relief not to have to go under the cover with that. You know? That heaviness that you feel was there when you had to kind of help him with it, collaborate with him. [00:24:17]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: You know? Yeah. I was going to say something else, but my thought is that it's just a lot. You've been really not putting kind of a cover over what you're feeling about all this. And not just feeling but thinking about it. You know? Seeing your Dad in this light with relation to you. Not just what he does to other people.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Really, what's happening between the two of you.

CLIENT: Yeah. What transpires.

THERAPIST: Something really felt and lived out between you two. And it's clear that your Dad is, well I'm assuming your Dad is reacting to it too because he's not in touch as much. [00:25:18]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: He knows that you're, you know -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Seeing more of him, thinking more about him.

CLIENT: You know, what's interesting is like that's a very radically different kind of thing to be kind of going on between us.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, like for him to feel Like the fact like just how different it is that he hasn't called me for maybe even more than two weeks now.

THERAPIST: It's very strange.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, if you had like a chart of his telephone calling pattern, this would be like you'd think that the computer was wrong or something. Do you know what I mean? It's that significantly -

THERAPIST: Oh yeah.

CLIENT: you know, a variation from the typical that it makes it so clear that something very different is going on with him. But I think a lot of times that I was in here, it's hard maybe (ph). I think a lot of the times I would sort of say to myself like, I feel the only way that a change that could have been effected would have been for me to freak out at him, yell at him or something. You know what I mean? [00:26:32]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I've said this to you. What's the point of thinking about this shit with my Dad if I know I'm probably always going to be too uncomfortable to go off and sit down in front of him and just say things to him that are pissing me off.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And it's just interesting to me now that I feel like, I'm surprised that things feel so differently without that catalyst for a change I thought was the only thing that could have sort of renegotiated things. Because it feels better now. Do you know what I mean? Like it feels better for me right now. A lot better. You know?

But that typical more (pause) kind of heavy dynamic that sort of encapsulated everything (laughs) up until now seemed way more entrenched. And I literally thought it would have taken me and Dad to get into a fist fight or something to like -

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And it's just very interesting to me that it I'm surprised that it was able to play out this way -

THERAPIST: Without any conflicts (ph). [00:27:51]

CLIENT: Yeah. It's encouraging. It feels good, you know, honestly. Because I really thought that that would have taken me like Like the fantasy in my head was me screaming at my Dad.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: And probably something not unlike what played out in Ireland with his family or something. Like literally I imagined us in the room screaming at each other -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: as the only way to challenge this thing. You know?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: This thing that made me feel like I had to get on the phone every day and just, you know, blow sunshine up his ass. Do you know what I mean? (pause) Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting to me given the kind of expectations they had of me.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) [00:29:06]

CLIENT: You know, it makes me curious about my Mom too. You would almost think the two of them are talking to each other because this happened at the exact same time. You know? And obviously they're not, but (pause) I wonder why she doesn't even, why she hasn't been calling me either. Because that's just as odd, quite frankly. But it seems less, I feel like I have less to make sense of that with.

THERAPIST: It has a different meaning though?

CLIENT: I don't know. I mean, this whole thing with my Dad seems to make sense there. I seem to be able to make some sense of it. You know? (pause) [00:30:05]

THERAPIST: Yeah, maybe there's something about what's happening between you and your Mother that's not as, doesn't have the immediate significance that it has with your Dad. But it's still very noteworthy.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think it's very significant too. Yeah, yeah. You know, but just I don't know. I think what you're saying about my Dad is something that I've been toying with. Like the idea of there being some kind of unconscious guilt kind of lurking around in his thoughts. I think is interesting and I got to run to the bathroom real quick actually.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Is that cool. I don't know if [you'll like me doing this] (ph), but I just had a huge coffee. I'm not going to make it until ten minutes. I'll be back. [00:31:00]

(long pause) [00:32:52]

CLIENT: What I think is interesting is that I think, with respect to this more immediate experience with my Dad, I think it's pretty evident that he feels guilty or ashamed about his inability to kind of follow through on what he said he was going to do with me. Now that my Mom mentioned to me in our short conversation, she said something to the effect of, you know, "Your Dad's a very proud man," or something.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I'm sure that having to say something to me like, "I don't have the money right now," probably would be just be very hard for him to say or something. (pause) Which I believe but it strikes me as odd that he seemed to go out of his way to text message to say that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, he could have avoided that. You know? He really did not have to go into that. Do you know what I mean? [00:34:14]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, he could have said, "I'm figuring a way out." But instead he -

CLIENT: He could have just kept saying what he had been saying for months which is like, "Ah, we'll figure this out soon."

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: What it ultimately accomplished, what that text message accomplished anyways. You know? (pause) So, yeah, it strikes me as odd that he would have kind of opted to add that into the conversation. But I can see that he, not only can I understand that he probably feels that way, I can see him feeling that way. I can see him behaving in ways that suggest it. Do you know what I mean? [00:35:15]

But what seems funny to me is that the way that I've kind of described everything to you about my Dad leading up to this and my frustrations with him seem to center around this perception that I have of him as not feeling any, you know, awareness. Let alone guilt or shame coming from that awareness, about anything to do with he and I.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean? Like how I'm just immune and how kind of totally unaware of the wake of destruction he's left in his pass. You know, that's the way that I would describe it. You know? So in that sense to think of it, that's sort of like putting a different kind of impression onto kind of the image I have of him. [00:36:26]

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: And I guess if it's unconscious maybe it's not too different. But to even think of him psychologically in any way being impacted by any, you know, unconscious or conscious or direct or indirect (pause) Yeah, I guess I don't even know if it's different but I guess it's just something I see, I feel like I have an idea about. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Remember the conversation I had with you where I was like, yeah, he cried when he was having that conversation with me and my Mom, seemed to suggest some access or awareness to what was going on. Even if maybe for the next five years afterwards he seems to have completely forgotten it or something. I don't know. It's just a very different image for me to form of my Dad as someone who is kind of ashamed or aware or anything. [00:37:29]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, I had that. I think it's something about you, I think the way you approached your Dad around the whole job and leaving and everything might have actually led to him somehow being able himself to think and say more about what he was, what was going on with him.

CLIENT: It kind of stoked some of those things?

THERAPIST: I was actually thinking, I mean, maybe. But I was also thinking about it in terms of you acknowledging something about it. Or you not covering something over maybe helped him not have to cover something over. I mean, not to discount the side of it that has this feeling of like, "Hey, I want you to know I'm sacrificing for you," or whatever we just talked about. But I also think there's something maybe about you changing something led to him to have to say something like that through text message. [00:38:43]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I just think that's something significant in that he was saying kind of not having to go to that position of everything is going to work out or everything going to be fine. But saying, "I'm selling stocks."

CLIENT: Yeah. It's funny, I wouldn't have thought of it as me helping him if it meant that he gained some more access to these thoughts or impressions. I would have thought of me doing something bad. Me kind of pushing him into a bad arena of ideas and thoughts or something. But I guess it depends on how you look at it.

But that was sort of like my, I think I even speculated about that. I think we both did. Like why did I go back and even work with him despite the fact that I seemed totally aware that it was probably just going to be really shitty. You know? Maybe it was to take a step back into it so that I can then kind of step back out again on my own terms or something. [00:39:58]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Oh yeah.

CLIENT: If definitely seems like after doing so it definitely, if there was any kind of, if I was to search for some like productive impact on that, it would probably definitely be disrupting the "everything is cool" thing -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: in different ways. Which is interesting to me now that the biggest impact of that seems to be that we just don't even talk. You know, which is kind of funny.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: Which feels great for me.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm. (pause)

CLIENT: It's odd though because, in a lot of ways I don't know what to do with my Dad when he's not being frustrating. [00:41:05]

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: You know? Because maybe if he, yeah, I don't know. Maybe when he sends me a text message like that When I read it I thought he was trying to do something to me. I thought he was trying to make me feel guilty. I thought he was trying to make me feel bad.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: You know? And I wound up playing hot potato with the guilt ball or something. Do you know what I mean? Maybe he was just trying to get out of his hands by showing what he was doing. You know? But I don't know. Maybe that's a point where that could have been a place where we could have had a conversation or something.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I don't know. But I just don't even want to do that. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Huh. You don't know what to do with it, huh?

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. (pause) I don't know if I don't want to or I don't know what to do with him when he's like that. Like I didn't know what to do with him when he was crying. Do you know what I mean? (pause) I don't know. Yeah, but I don't know, maybe that's a place for us to do something different. [00:42:16]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But that seems (pause) Yeah, that seems, yeah, messy.

THERAPIST: It does, yeah, messy.

CLIENT: I mean it feels like, yes, maybe I would call him back and I'm like, "Oh, Dad, you know, I realize you said this, and I appreciate you sharing that with me. You know? I'm glad that you communicated that with me. I know what's going on. Let me know what I can do to be helpful. You know? It's cool however long it takes." I mean, yeah, I could go into that. But that just seems like moving too quickly into reconciliation.

THERAPIST: Uh huh. Uh huh.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. No, I think you're sorting out what it all means to you, it seems to me. (pause) [00:43:19]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What to do with him? Like what do you do? Like what do you want? Like, how what you wanted -

CLIENT: Because then I would be telling him that everything is cool. And then he might start calling me again every day.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: And I don't (laughs) You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Oh. And then what? It would go back to the way it was?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah, interesting.

CLIENT: I'm not going to lie. I kind of like thinking about him sitting at home, you know, freaking out a little bit like I do every day.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: I kind of like that, between you and I. (pause) I don't know if that's a productive thing that I enjoy it. But I don't know if that's a malicious, nefarious thing for me to desire. It feels more vengeful than productive or something. [00:44:22]

THERAPIST: Well there is something important about you sort of saying you want him to feel what you feel. You wanted him to know that you feel it too.

CLIENT: Well I guess it makes me feel like, when he sends me that text message, he's sort of making this little opening. And it would be very easy for me to just step right in and just sort of rap about it. I know what would make things comfortable. I know exactly what I could say to him, because that's what I say to him every single time that I talk to him. Like, "It's totally cool. It's fine."

THERAPIST: Ah. Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean I know that's like autopilot for me. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I guess it's an instance where I feel comfortable holding that back.

THERAPIST: Well, yeah. I mean -

CLIENT: Question that impulse.

THERAPIST: Just the other part of it is that it doesn't seem like things are very cool.

CLIENT: Right. [00:45:29]

THERAPIST: Yeah. You know? Like something is going on with money. You have no idea, but something has been going on with this whole wedding business from the word "go" when the bills started to come in for him. And your sister and Kevin kind of reaching out to you, "Where the hell's the Have you heard from your Dad," and all. Not paying you, you know, on time and all that stuff. Something is not cool.

And even further, something is not cool inside of him about this. You know? And God knows what it all means to him to have to be, what all this wedding means to him. Something is -

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't envy his position. I wouldn't want to be in it. And, you know? [00:46:36]

THERAPIST: You've got Is some of his family going to be there? Has Reese (ph) kept in touch with like, you know -

CLIENT: Some of my generation. None of his.

THERAPIST: None of his.

CLIENT: His Mom was invited but she's not going to go.

THERAPIST: She's not going to go.

CLIENT: My grandmother, you might say. Because she wouldn't be able to go unless someone older went with her.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: But that element is definitely, absolutely going to be there. You know?

THERAPIST: (laughs) Yeah. Well it might not just be money that's making him drag his feet.

CLIENT: No, for sure. For sure.

THERAPIST: And when you say you want him to feel, I mean, I think it has something to do with wanting to know what, wanting him to Well if he was anxious or he was feeling guilty or something, it would mean it meant something to him. It would mean that it had some significance to him. [00:47:52]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It would mean it wasn't just, you know, it wasn't nothing.

CLIENT: Yeah, there's something there. There's a lot there. I'll take one of your lines.

THERAPIST: There's a lot there, yeah. (laughs)

CLIENT: I know it's time. (banging sound) Alright. (sigh)

THERAPIST: Okay. I'll see you. I remembered I was just trying to think if I had told you about my vacation plans.

CLIENT: July, right?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, I got the stuff written down.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: Alright. Thank you and I'll see you on Thursday.

THERAPIST: Okay. Yeah. Thursday.

END TRANSCRIPT