TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: (joined in progress) What's the battery on those? See, I'm in the... I'm... At some... When the money's right, I'm going to be getting a new smart phone. I've been bouncing between the Droid and the iPhone 5. But the battery life in the reviews is not very good on the (iPhone)5.

THERAPIST: Yeah, you know, um...

CLIENT: ...and that's the biggest issue with me.

THERAPIST: And it's so great. I think what they're, I think they're rolling out the new operating system in the fall, so you might want to see what they say about the battery life then, because some of the upgrades to the operating system are to help with the battery life.

CLIENT: Yeah?

THERAPIST: In fact, (chuckles) I would venture to guess that a lot of those, a lot of the upgrades are about preserving the battery life.

CLIENT: Well, that's the biggest, that's the biggest kind of thing that's not working on it, but...

THERAPIST: You basically have to have a charger, you really just have to have a charger.

CLIENT: I was talking to the people at Verizon. They said a lot of the folks that get the iPhones, to make up for it, there is like this case you can get that has an extra battery built onto it. It would make it bigger, but... whatever. (therapist affirms) [00:01:10]

(pause) Man, I'm really exhausted this morning.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: Yeah, I closed at the restaurant last night. So I was here until, like 11:15 and went back to Belmont, and then back. I really wanted to just like, sleep in the corner of the restaurant or something, knowing I'd have to be right back here, but...

THERAPIST: Give you a boost, then "Hello!"

CLIENT: Really.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that's a rough commute. How long does it take you get home?

CLIENT: Um... It's like an hour and change, like an hour and fifteen minutes.

THERAPIST: Whoa!

CLIENT: Or we could (ph) walk home, you know? But it's fine, it's fine. It's all good things. What were we talking about?

THERAPIST: And by the way, can you stay until 11? Is that...? [00:02:05]

CLIENT: Yeah, I can stay until 11, yeah. I can absolutely do that. What were we talking about last week? I'm going to try to... (pause) Last Thursday, we were talking about... Right. We were talking about my mom, and how I react to her comments all the time about calling my grandparents, and "I couldn't imagine doing that," and...

I was talking about the conversation I had with Laney, where I felt like it was still sort of like opaque (ph) to me sometimes why exactly it frustrates me so much, but I seemed like, a little bit more able to come up with some reasoning that felt a little bit more defensible or something; as opposed to just, you know, being careless or something, as to why these things bother me. (therapist affirms) [00:03:15]

Yeah, I remembered our last conversation, I remember leaving and feeling good, in the sense that I felt increasingly, kind of, aware and... I don't know, but whatever that feeling was, prior, whereby, you know, I had these conversations with my mom and I would get, like, enraged with this anger that seemed like, you know, a lot more serious than something just, kind of like, the examples that we were talking about, like, "Make your bed," or something, you know, that I wasn't doing.

That the distance between those two things seemed to be a little bit easier to bridge, you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) Which is really comforting, because that's something that has been bothering me for, like, a really, really long time. I was never able to really try to make some sense. It was always just a tension, you know what I mean? [00:04:27]

THERAPIST: Yeah! Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I have the impression that you couldn't kind of, it's hard to conceive of it, in your mind, about like, "Why am I being such a stick in the mud about all this," or something like that. I mean, while on the one hand, being, feeling like your anger was, or frustration was justified, you kind of go, "Well, is it all because I'm just being a...?"

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. My inability to articulate it, even to myself. Yeah, no, definitely no hope in (ph) this lingering possibility of maybe, maybe I don't have a good reason for it, or something. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. But then we did, then I remember I finished with my comment about the fact, that if there is anything to kind of take away from it, at least seems to suggest on some level at least, that my mom is not kind of... The way I put it, like tiptoeing around her divorce guilt, whenever she talks to me about family anymore. Which I actually, I remembered that, and I like, I liked the way that I put that. But, yeah, I remember that. That was... [00:05:58]

THERAPIST: What about that? Yeah.

CLIENT: Well the notion that like... at the end of the day, while it's really frustrating that my mom might take that tone with me, and seem to not acknowledge the fact that maybe I have really deliberately gone to, you know, pretty significant lengths to think about the feelings for the people in my family (which is exactly what she seems to be suggesting I'm not doing, when she lectures me about not coming to (ph) my grandparents), you know, if she can speak from that position, it seems to suggest, at least, that she's not kind of tearing herself up about (therapist affirms) a lot of things that, a lot of things that I genu/stops/, you know... To the extent that I can claim an interpretation of the events, hey look, you know, I definitely think that one of the things that I was trying to do was not, kind of, impose that kind of ball and chain of guilt, you know what I mean? [00:07:12]

(pause) Which I... I definitely stand by. (pause) I thought a lot about that too, actually, because that's something I had thought about in my head, kind of very subtly. I hadn't really thought it through to the extent that I did when I actually spoke about it to you, that notion that maybe that's something that I can find comfort in, even if it's still frustrating whenever my mother says these things to me, you know what I mean? (therapist affirms)

(pause) Yeah. I don't know. It... (pause) Yeah, I think that that's something I could live with, I think. Whereas like before, in the conversation last Thursday, I was kind of saying to you, that kind of tension around my family, you know, (insofar as my family is never going to go away, and there is always going to be someone, you know, like my mother wants me to be maintaining a close relationship with), you know, it's like, I don't want it to always be in that kind of dynamic. I'd like to, you know, find some way that my mother either like backs off, you know, gives me the autonomy over it all that I feel like I should have or something, as opposed to this incredibly frustrating dynamic that comes up every single time my family comes up. I'm willing to consider that maybe that's something I could handle, if I was to really privilege, you know, that conclusion about my mom, you know what I mean? [00:09:30]

THERAPIST: That she's... what's the conclusion that...?

CLIENT: That maybe she... (pause) that she does that because she's not aware of some of those... She's not aware of why it frustrates me, because for me to explain it to her, to explain to her what we talked about last week, would be to put a lot more on her than I would kind of want to do, you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) In a way, like what I'm saying is, I could almost imagine playing out the rest of my time with my family in a way, where I just sort of feel that frustration, but I'm able to kind of relegate it to that. I'm just really ready (ph) to resolve it, around that notion. [00:10:28]

THERAPIST: Because I don't want to, you know... (client affirms) make my mother feel really lousy about why I'm... Yeah. What this all means to me, or... (client affirms) Hey, like telling her, "Hey I've already been doing all this work, now you're asking me to do more."

CLIENT: Or yeah, or just to say to her that, "You know what? I don't like my family. I don't like spending time with my family; it doesn't make me happy," you know what I mean? Because I feel like everything "family" is just you know, stained (ph) or not enjoyable for me.

THERAPIST: Is that ...?

CLIENT: You know, I want be creating my own life, with my own circle of friends and people, you know what I mean? That I can make the decisions about, and not have to be kind of in this web, where everything I do is determined by all these other people's actions that I never had any say over, and now all I can do is kind of react to it, you know? Which is what I feel like; everything with my family, on my dad's side, on my mom's side, you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) [00:11:34]

But, to think about sort of going into it, and having that end, like thinking about my mom in that way, it seems like a lot easier to think about kind of doing that stuff, if in the back of my mind it's like... It seems to be towards, like, some... some end that seems worthwhile to me, you know what I mean? As opposed to me just swallowing my pride and just being (inaudible/blocked at 00:12:12), you know what I mean? Like it just, it feels very different now that I have it figured out ph/blocked), you know? But, yeah. I don't know... (pause) [00:12:35]

THERAPIST: Something just happened along here, so...

CLIENT: Yeah, I just noticed your second hand is stuck on your clock there.

THERAPIST: Oh, that's fine. I'm, that's not a second hand, actually. It's a (aside: I'm going to turn the airplane thing on above you) it's actually an alarm. So this thing you're looking at? Yeah, that's not a second, it's actually like, if it's put there, that means the alarm will go off at 6:30, if I pull this thing.

CLIENT: Oh, okay. (pause) Yeah, and I don't know. I guess that's just sort of like reframing what I was saying last week, that's not really anything new, I guess, but...

THERAPIST: Well, no. I guess it was something, though, impor(stops)... I mean, it was a very... I can see the importance of, first of all, just breaking down and unpacking what's a very densely packed set of feelings. It might be an understatement to say it's densely packed, because there is something very, very deep and important about your family history here, and your function in it, on both sides of the family. (client affirms) [00:13:50]

You know, it seemed to me like it got you into a space of contemplating the way you were with your mom's family, the way you were with your dad's family. What I was sensing was like, almost like a feeling of how arbitrary it seemed to you, in certain ways. It wasn't based on some overriding principle of what family was to you. Not that it should be or shouldn't be, but that you were reacting to that, like, "Why this family, not that family? Why do we talk about the love of this family and the importance that that holds and it should hold for me, while my other family, my father's family, I'm not even supposed to talk about; otherwise I'm upsetting the apple cart," you know. That it seems to hit you right in the heart of a lot of that. (client affirms) It seems to me...

CLIENT: Yeah. No, no, you're right. And then like, because when my mom says this stuff to me, like when she kind of lectures me about calling my grandparents, it's... (pause) It's always done in a way that speaks about my relationship with them and with my family in very just, kind of normal tones. It's like I said to you, like, it's speaking to me as if I had absolutely no reason in the world to feel the slightest bit of discomfort; that sort of... you know what I mean? Which in a way plays into like what I was saying. In a way I feel like that's something like I would have wished for my mom, to have, you know what I mean? [00:15:40]

THERAPIST: Yeah, how do you, tell me how...?

CLIENT: I would wish for her to have that experience of family, and I feel like she wants it, you know what I mean? I feel like it's more...

THERAPIST: Huh!

CLIENT: (pause) You know? (stutters)

THERAPIST: Yeah, let it go, yeah, yeah. What you wish she would have had.

CLIENT: You know, my dad didn't want that. You know, he left his family. You know what I mean? That was his wish, you know what I mean? In a way, he just like, did again what he did when he left his family in Wales, you know what I mean? It's a very different thing for him. My mom had something kind of taken away from her that I think she really wanted, you know?

THERAPIST: Oh, I got you, I see.

CLIENT: And that's like, when she goes up to New Hampshire, I mean, you know, like my dad doesn't have a New Hampshire that he goes to. You know, he just stays at home, you know what I mean? My mom has this sort of little pocket up in New Hampshire of this family that she never... that she'll never be able to have anymore. I mean she used to go up there for weekends and see it, and want it, and be... you know what I mean? [00:16:50]

THERAPIST: She wanted that kind of ... are you starting to say, like she not only lost that, but also wanted to create it with your father?

CLIENT: Yeah! Absolutely, absolutely, you know?

THERAPIST: Wow. Huh! Wow, yeah.

CLIENT: And that's... I know that she wants that, you know what I mean? I can tell that she wants that, when she talks to me about my grandparents as if, like, you know, everything had been... the way that it probably is when she's up there for a weekend or something, you know what I mean? Like family sitting around the table and... all that stuff. You know what I mean? [00:17:39]

(pause) But, my point being, that when she speaks to me about it, when she sort of gives the reasons as to why she feels like I should be calling them, it's always moralized based upon this, like, assumption of like, love and the defined quality of family, you know what I mean? It's never like, "You know, Geoffrey, I know maybe it's probably not the most enjoyable thing for you to do, but your grandparents are getting old; and I understand that is probably just a, maybe it's difficult for you to do for whatever reason; but I just (you know, not for me, but you know, just for them, you know), I think it would just be really great, you know, just to see that," you know what I mean? Just to acknowledge that, you know what I mean? [00:18:44]

THERAPIST: But it's much more; she doesn't really, that's not how she...

CLIENT: No, it's like...

THERAPIST: ...deals with anything. Okay. I didn't realize that.

CLIENT: It's like, she's like, "Will you call your grandparents?" You know, I don't even know how to, I don't even remember hearing that from them (ph) (blocked), you know? You know, it's almost like she's not... Through declarative statements, it's almost like she's asking, like, "Why aren't you calling your grandparents," you know? Like, "Why on earth are you not trying to go up there?"

THERAPIST: "Why wouldn't you be taking part in this?" (client affirms) I see.

CLIENT: Like, just so mind-boggling, you know what I mean? Like, "Why are you not using every spare moment you have to try to do stuff with your family, Geoffrey?" You know what I mean? (pause) And it feels, yeah.

THERAPIST: That's a very important point you're making.

CLIENT: It feels different, you know? [00:19:44]

THERAPIST: Let me ask you this. What is it like being, I mean we've just touched on this a bit, but what is it like being around that family to you? What is it like to you?

CLIENT: (pause) Up in New Hampshire? (therapist affirms) (pause 00:20:05 to 00:20:23) I mean I guess there is like, there are two things about being up there that seem to really stick out. One is... the way that I feel kind of going into this little community that's made up of everyone but my mother: like, my grandparents, my aunt, my uncle and my cousins. It's very much sort of like stepping into this... this sort of... this sort of current that is very much just determined by their relationships and their history. I feel like I kind of step in for a moment and then I'm a grandson for a day or two, and it just seems very evident to me that I don't spend as much time up there as my other two cousins, that I don't have the same relationship with my grandparents as my other two cousins.

(pause 00:21:34 to 00:21:50) Almost as if it's just sort of like, I was there the day before and I'll be there the day after... I don't know. It just feels very contrived. (therapist affirms) On all ends, not even just on my end. I almost feel that, like this effort by, you know, my aunt and my uncle and stuff to like pretend as if I was always there, or something. You know what I mean? [00:22:17]

THERAPIST: Oh! Uh-huh, I think so, I think so.

CLIENT: I don't even know. It feels uncomfortable. It feels...

THERAPIST: ...with a familiarity that doesn't feel... it feels, it's more representing a wish to be familiar...

CLIENT: Sort of...

THERAPIST: ...they act familiar, in a way, or it's a...

CLIENT: (pause) I don't know. When I'm up there, all I feel is... like, the discrepancy between how close everyone up there loves to be with each other, wants to be with each other and I'm how not close I am with everybody up there, by most standards.

THERAPIST: Is there something, is there a way that's viewed if you're not as close to them?

CLIENT: I mean, implicitly; because like, everything up there is organized around how much people love to do everything with their family, you know what I mean? I'll be at the table, even, and they'll be making plans to be doing stuff with their family the next week, when I'm not there. You know, like my two cousins will be competing over who can, you know, come over and mow the lawn and... (therapist chuckles) You know, this kind of stuff. Which is great, you know? But I'm just there, I'm just like, "I'm... I'm not going to...," you know? (therapist affirms) [00:23:45]

"I'm not going to be...," you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) That's what I mean, just sort of like stepping into this current that was there before me and... you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) (pause) It just, it rarely leaves me feeling really great, you know what I mean? (therapist acknowledges) So there is that. There is my experience.

Then there is also just seeing my mom up there. My mom just looks very... (pause) she, I don't know. She looks very outside of... (pause) I don't know, outside of that kind of circle of people. She just seems to... I just see my mom just trying to be there, trying to be as, trying to like insert herself, as if she was up there every single weekend. [00:25:00]

THERAPIST: Trying to go with the current.

CLIENT: Yeah. She looks, she acts different. You know, she almost like, she almost acts happier than I know she is, you know what I mean? (pause 00:25:15 to 00:25:30) I don't know. (pause) I don't know. It's just that, I rarely leave there feeling good about any aspect-my mom, me, you know. One of my cousins actually, my cousin Barry (sp?), who I like, more or less... He's actually studying now, he's in the Master's Program at Yale. He's been here for a year at Yale, I've even seen him once.

THERAPIST: Oh, is that right? What's he studying?

CLIENT: Government or something. He went to Columbia and now he's there.

THERAPIST: The Reagan School or something?

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause 00:26:15 to 00:26:32) Yeah, I don't know. I guess I just, I, it leads to just feelings of guilt when I'm up there, that I'm... from the things that, for not doing the things that my mom asks me to do, you know? (therapist acknowledges) Because I'm not as...

THERAPIST: Well, there is some way that you both feel, that you both are feel (stops), it sounds the way you describe it, as you both are kind of like outsiders there, in the sense of... you're not as naturally close to them. The other part of you (I mean I don't know what your mom is, what your mom feels in this regard, but for you), you've got, you're an outsider not just based on how much you see them, but on how you feel. You know, that in some way... Yeah, you just, you're not as... kind of like, feeling, "Yeah, this is exactly where I want to be and..." As it seems to me, your mother is, your mom kind of... And it seems like in some way this family up in New Hampshire would hope you to be, or would think, "Well what's, why wouldn't you be," or something like that. [00:27:57]

CLIENT: Yeah. I feel like a, I feel... and I felt this way even sometimes when I was young, I felt like, inadequate.

THERAPIST: Huh!

CLIENT: You know? I remember growing up, my two cousins, Barry and Melanie (sp?) were like, they were like star children, you know like, on all fronts. You know what I mean? Like in advanced classes in school and stuff and... (pause) I don't know. When I'm up there now, I don't know, for a long time, on some level, I guess I've felt like... You know, when I'm up there a lot of the times I think to myself, like, "I feel like ashamed, that I want to go out and have a cigarette. No one else here wants to do that." You know what I mean? (therapist affirms) [00:29:05]

(pause) Yeah, by the standards of kind of, morality and value that seems to kind of govern things up there, I'm typically left feeling a little... you know, "less than," or something. (therapist acknowledges) A lot times I just feel like the... you know, like my mom and dad splitting up is this kind of... elephant in the room or something. You know, that people want to... you know, not talk about, in a way that is like, really... I don't know, sometimes I feel like they want to show how cool they are about it. You know, like the example of like, where my dad drove me up that time. They like, invited my dad in to sit down, you know? Like, "We're all this cool about it," you know what I mean? [00:30:24]

THERAPIST: Hmmm!

CLIENT: And then there I was, the only one at the table who seemed to be extraordinarily uncomfortable about it, you know? Again, I just felt like... yeah. Not in line with whatever was going on. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah! Yeah.

CLIENT: (pause 00:30:44 to 00:30:57) Yeah, I don't know. It's a group of people who live, who do everything you know, from like eating to drinking to, you know everything that they do is structured around this kind of lifestyle that just seems very alien to me. (therapist acknowledges) And it seems very evidently alien to me at least, but it seems like there is this attempt to show how seamlessly I can be accepted into your... you know what I mean? [00:31:31]

THERAPIST: Okay. Hmmm.

CLIENT: My mom looks really divorced when she's up there. Like, there are sometimes when my mom looks more divorced than other times. She'll be very divorced when she's up there.

THERAPIST: What do you notice, what is it?

CLIENT: We'll be sitting around the table, there is like my grandma, my grandpa, and then my aunt and my uncle, and my mom, you know? (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. But something is very important to you about that. I mean, just that your mother is kind of like a... It's a little alien for her now because of that. I assume, like, there is some kind of way... She can't kind of easily blend into their, to that kind of, to the current of "everybody's excited to be with each other, they get so much out of family experience," whereas she's... How can she do that easily when she's divorced and doesn't have that in her own life in some way. It's like a... [00:32:43]

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know, though. Like I don't know sometimes, because she has her own experience with her parents that predated my father, you know what I mean? That existed before, you know, my dad came into the picture, when she was growing up with them, you know what I mean? I don't know; maybe she has a different experience with that, when she's up there. But from my perspective, where I'm sitting, that seems very... determinate, you know what I mean? I don't know; I wonder if, for my mom, it's a very different experience. If she feels as divorced as I think she looks, or something. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Interesting, yeah. No, but there are some... yeah, right, right. You don't know what's going on with your mom, but you're picking up on some facet of the feeling up there to you. [00:33:36]

CLIENT: (pause) I don't know. Just like, for example, one of the things that always goes on up there (this is like, one of the things my dad used to kind of gripe to me about after he moved out, you know); if like a grandparent walks into the room, you know, no matter like where you're sitting, like all the kids are supposed to like stand up and try to give the seat to the grandparent. (therapist acknowledges) You know, and if you... even if there is like one grandparent walking in and there are three kids and the third one doesn't get up, it's... I don't know. It's just this thing. It's this... (pause 00:34:27 to 00:34:41) I don't know. It's just this mentality that I feel like I'm expected to just jump into, (therapist acknowledges) the moment I walk out there. [00:34:50]

THERAPIST: Wow, that's interesting. It's a profound kind of deference. I mean, out of respect, ostensibly, but it makes me think, actually, a little bit about... there is some reason that the image of them, people getting up out of their seats makes me think of like... you not wanting to upset your mother and stuff. (chuckles) Well like, there is a kind of way of... making it easier for her, for people in that family (inaudible/blocked at 00:35:30] Yeah.

(pause) And I was thinking about, that in some way, that every... and this isn't a knock on the family, but I was just thinking like, more of like, your experience in some way of being in that family... I wonder how much you feel it takes into account your own history with your parents and, especially who your father is, who your father is and... and it kind of, it sounds like his kind of rejection of that whole idea of closeness to that family and... [00:36:10]

CLIENT: You know, there is no room, there is no room for any possibility that... you know, family could be anything other than that which you'd jump out of your seat for, you know? At a moment's notice.

THERAPIST: I see, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: And that it could be anything other than that, which you would... you know, gladly get out of bed at 6:00 in the morning to go mow the lawn for, or something, you know? That it could be anything other than... I don't know. That kind of stuff. (therapist affirms) It makes me feel like, it makes me feel... It's an un-pleasurable tension when I'm up there, and I feel that. You know, I do. I leave, quite often, feeling inadequate, I think is a good way to put it, you know? (therapist acknowledges)

(pause 00:37:20 to 00:37:33) I'd rather not have ever, I'd rather not have to even try to facilitate the stepping in and out of that. I'd rather just not see any of them ever again, to be quite honest. Like in the most just, self-interested way. If I didn't have to think about my mother's feelings about it, I would def(stops), that would be like the ideal thing. [00:37:55]

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: I wouldn't be distraught about not seeing them again, I don't think, you know? (pause) But that doesn't seem like an option, obviously, you know? (pause 00:38:21 to 00:38:45) Even though that is, like, what I'm doing with the other side of my family, effectively, you know. Even though that is, literally what, you know, that I will do for the rest of my life with the other side of my family. To even like, think that is like... (pause) sinful, or something. Like... (pause) I would never even suggest that that would be the thought going on in my head to my mother, you know? That would be such... [00:39:24]

THERAPIST: Yeah, what would it, yeah, what would it...?

CLIENT: A disgusting, horrible, selfish, ridiculous, horrible... even to my father! Even if I said that to my father, about my family in New Hampshire. He would cast that kind of judgment upon it; which is really interesting.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. It is interesting. (pause) Especially because I think there is some sort of way that, I don't know, that you're... I'm just thinking about it, you're not solely your mother's son, you're your father's son, too. I was thinking that there is some way that you've... Some of the things that you see and feel about that family, I imagine, are kind of like... concordant (ph) with what your dad was feeling in some way. [00:40:24]

CLIENT: About my family up in New Hampshire? (therapist affirms) Yeah, it seems to, for whatever reason, align in some ways.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Something that you guys both see and feel there, and... (inaudible), he said he didn't bond over that (ph), you said.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I felt like, yeah.

THERAPIST: Relatively speaking, I suppose for you.

CLIENT: I don't like to think about that. I feel like maybe on the surface, they look like very similar feelings about... my family up in New Hampshire. But I like to think that qualitatively, you know, the substance of that is very different, you know? I think that those things should have been things that my dad should have just dealt with. "You got married; we're always a family," you know? "You knew this," you know? (therapist acknowledges) [00:41:35]

Like, "You don't want to have these people as your family, don't get married." "Yeah, I didn't make that choice," you know what I mean? I feel like there is a very different... I feel more justified in some of my frustrations than I'd like to give to my dad, you know? (therapist acknowledges) I... Does that make sense?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. If he does feel that way, what, you know, what's the, what do you feel about that, about him saying, "Oh, I don't want to have anything to do with these people," or "I don't like them," or... that it's kind of like self(stops)...

CLIENT: You know, I don't either, you know? But I am. I mean, it's... (therapist affirms) It's like, that's not... It's like, "Okay, you don't want to do that." "All right. I don't want to go to school today." You know? "You're a big boy, Dad," you know? (therapist affirms) "Think about someone else," you know? [00:42:46]

THERAPIST: I see, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: "You chose this! No one made this decision for you." (therapist affirms) You know? (pause) I don't know. (pause) But yeah, I think that at some level, I get... yeah. Like with a lot of things, I get uncomfortable when I feel like there is an overlap developing between things I associate with my dad and with myself.

THERAPIST: Well, yeah! I think it can easily kind of fall into the category of, you know, "You're not playing ball and you're not a family guy," and all that stuff. I suppose there is some truth to it, but it's, it easily gets categorized into you shirking your duties or something. I'm sure that it sounds like that's how people experience, I mean... actually you felt, in some way and what people felt maybe about your dad. (pause) Your mom wanted this really badly, and you do things for your wife and you know, and... (client affirms) And if you don't, you're kind of like, you know, "What's (chuckles), what's wrong! Why aren't you doing that?" Yeah. (client affirms) But there is something deep in all this, to all of you, about that. About your dad's history, your dad... I don't know. [00:44:43]

CLIENT: You know, it's really funny. I don't think, you know, I'm just thinking about it now for the first time. I don't think I ever had a conversation with anyone up in New Hampshire about anyone in my father's family, apart from my sister. Sometimes they'll say like, "How's your sister doing?" You know? But the rest of it is just like a black hole, you know?

THERAPIST: Interesting! Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: It's never... (pause) It's never... even mentioned or acknowledged, even.

THERAPIST: How about your father? Do you ever talk to your... about your, you know, what's going on with your father or...?

CLIENT: With the rest of his family?

THERAPIST: No, with your mom's family. Do they ever go, Hey how's your, you know...

CLIENT: In casual conversation, a lot of the time. Yeah, every time I'm up there, "How's your dad doing?" (therapist acknowledges) Almost as if he and my mom are still together, and he just couldn't make it up, because he had work or something. [00:45:53]

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Oh, yeah! That casually. Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. They're very comfortable bringing the topic up, and throwing it out casually.

THERAPIST: But, yeah, no one... father's family's a black hole...

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Yeah.

THERAPIST: Whoa. What are you thinking?

CLIENT: (pause) That I guess it's a black hole to me, too, you know? It's not something I've ever... it's not like I was thinking about it and wondering why no one else was thinking about it or something, but... (pause) I mean, it wouldn't really make sense within like, a lot of the... the thought patterns up in New Hampshire; it wouldn't really seem to fit. (therapist acknowledges) Like, that there is also, you know, family that... you know, there are also experiences with family going on, yet they don't seem to mirror this, you know? In a way, it's not surprising, I guess. You know? [00:47:14]

THERAPIST: Yeah, you know, I was thinking, is there some way that the, you know, there is a similar, whether or not it's a black hole kind of experience, but there are a similar kind of like, the way, that there is some way of not being able to kind of like, look at or take into account some different attitude about family that you have, some way that you've come to feel about family that's very divergent from theirs, isn't with the current.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. That's the frustration. (therapist affirms) Because no, we're just not, which is not unlike... you know, these conversations between me with my mom about my family up there, you know? Everything immediately presupposes this experience, which was, you know, hunky-dory, just, you know, fantastic. [00:48:15]

THERAPIST: Yeah, where your experience of family is very, very just diverse, divergent. ... divergent from all it.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I don't know. (pause) I don't know if (ph) it's a lot of alarm.

THERAPIST: Yeah, all right.

CLIENT: All right, I will see you on Thursday.

THERAPIST: Thursday, yeah, yeah. Thanks. (end at 00:49:05)

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