TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: (joined in progress) How long have you been doing it?

CLIENT: Not too long. I started... I started doing it... It got... like an app on my phone for it, and I started using it. I started getting the books and that was just like, I look forward to train rides now; I've just been able to do it. They go by so fast. It's nice.

Right. So last week, we were continuing our discussion about the topic of my family up in New Hampshire, my mom's... the way that I respond and react to my mom's statements, and when she tells me behave a certain way with them, to be closer with them, in a way that seems very, kind of moralizing or what not. [00:01:17]

We were talking about it last week and I just... you had asked just like, what it's like for me when I'm up there. (therapist affirms) I was kind of describing that. I remember you, you made a comment about, like, what, you know, that maybe it feels weird for me, or something, to think about the fact that on some level, even if just on face value, a lot of my feelings about going up to New Hampshire, spending time there, could be seen as, kind of mirroring like my dad's feelings about being up there. (therapist affirms)

And I was thinking about it today (actually, when I was on the way here), because I was curious what exactly you... I think I kind of just said, "Yeah, I've noticed that before," and I didn't really, I kind of brushed it off and kind of kept going in a different direction with it. But I was curious what you had in mind, specifically, if... You know what I mean? [00:02:24]

THERAPIST: Yeah, you know at the time, I didn't have much more on my mind, than just the observation of something that you were picking up on, that you felt that your father might have also felt. I thought, well I guess to follow that out, I thought, "You're not just your mother's son, you're your father's son." That wasn't just your, that just wasn't to your, to you, your mother's family, but is also what that family meant to your father, too. That it wasn't just one, it was both, you know? You were aware of both your parents' feelings and relationships with that family. That's what, that's kind of what I had in mind, and I also had in mind something about... I have no idea what or why, but something important about... It seemed to be something about just how your dad, yeah, your dad has his own history and his own relationship with his family, and perhaps it was something related to what it meant to be with a family that was close-knit, that you could also kind of relate to in the same way, and how it was distinct from you and your dad, and the way your family was. [00:04:02]

(pause) I guess the feeling somehow of, I was thinking about, here is maybe what I'd say about it, is that, I have the impression that your father felt, that you described your father almost as like being somewhat an outsider to that, and that you weren't free from that feeling as well.

CLIENT: Of what feeling?

THERAPIST: Feeling an outsider to that New Hampshire family, like somebody that wasn't quite in the, swimming the current, going with the current; and you have that same, you have something similar. That's kind of where I was heading (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah. No, I mean, I... (pause) I mean, I think a lot. I guess I wouldn't say I think a lot; I notice briefly and observe very kind of fleetingly at times the way sometimes I mirror, you know, my dad in a whole multitude of ways. It's something I'm like kind of always looking for, you know what I mean? Definitely, like up in New Hampshire, I think about the fact that he hated going up there and I hate going up there, you know? So I definitely think there is that. [00:05:38]

That definitely makes me uncomfortable on some level, much in the same way that I'm always going to be uncomfortable anytime I kind of start approximating something that I think is my dad, you know? I guess the way that, and I guess I constantly try to think about ways that, even though they might seem similar, that they're actually different in quality or something, you know what I mean? Like both me and my dad are going to law school, but... you know what I mean?

I think I used the analogy one time here. You know, every morning my dad and I also put shoes on and walk out of the house, too, but what we can infer from that isn't necessarily... you know what I mean? I would definitely say that I felt... that my dad definitely felt like an outsider, a little bit up there, in a way I did as well. I mean, I would say, for him, it was by his own doing. You know, I mean, I don't think he wanted to be closer with them, which I guess I don't either. [00:06:50]

(pause) But I see it as a set of circumstances that have been sort of determined for me by other individuals, whereby my father sort of... was a little bit more... He just kind of pushed them away, because he didn't like them. I guess, like he doesn't like a lot of people that he has to do stuff with, you know. Like, but with like my mom now, you know what I mean? Like... I guess I see my aversion to it as different, somehow. You know what I mean? As more of a reaction to something than something I'm putting into it. Yeah, Dad did; but... [00:07:45]

THERAPIST: Yeah, let me ask you, though: what, when I brought it up in the way that I put it to you, that you and your dad have this similarity, what did that mean? I mean, what was...? How did that react (inaudible at 00:07:58)?

CLIENT: Well, it was funny, because I kind of thought about it again coming here, because like when you said it, you know, at first, I was like, "Yeah, I've noticed that, obviously. It's interesting, whatever," you know. Yeah, he hates going up there, I hate going up there, you know? You know; next topic, or something. You know? (pause) Meaning, like, you know, yeah, I've noticed, I don't know. I was both kind of evasive and acknowledging of it, you know? Which is kind of the way I feel like I am a lot of the times when I think about stuff like that, with my dad. I don't think I really think about maybe what's behind my thoughts about those type of things. (therapist affirms) You know? Because I can definitely say, without a doubt, that those moments definitely are kind of significant. [00:08:55]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Now I see, yeah, yeah. I think they are.

CLIENT: That concept of...

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:09:02)

CLIENT: Yeah. Me and my dad kind of overlapping (inaudible/blocked) or something, I mean... Definitely something I'm constantly aware of, on some level, you know? (pause 00:09:16 to 00:09:33) Yes, I think when I come here and I think when I want to like... like when I say to you, I want to be able to articulate better why I have this aversion to being closer with people in New Hampshire, to going up to New Hampshire; you know in a way, that isn't just like being immature or just selfish or just not wanting to do stuff that you don't want to do or something. That's how I envision my dad, with respect to... you know what I mean? He just couldn't be bothered to go up to New Hampshire and spend time up there, because it was important to my mom and for no other reason, you know what I mean? [00:10:21]

(therapist affirms) I just (ph), at least in my mind, I can already, I'm already starting to think about maybe different explanations, you know? Maybe he has... I've never even really thought about it like this, but you know, whatever; maybe he has his own issues with family or something, which I guess wouldn't be that radical of an idea. But that's always the, it was always just him being selfish, you know? (therapist affirms) You know what I mean? Because all of the reasons that he would give to me, like when he complained about, not when he complained, but when he would vent about how much he used to hate going up there after he split up with my mom, they were all very petty things.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah?

CLIENT: You know? That he just didn't get to do the things he wanted to do. He was sort of... he had to submit to this sort of like schedule, and this routine that was dominated by the lifestyle of their stuff, you know?

THERAPIST: Then to you, it was just like, "Oh, he's just being a stick in the mud" kind of thing? [00:11:25]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Can't have his way, or whatever.

CLIENT: But I think even at the time, it was evident to me, like... those are things you've told me to get over, in other instances, you know what I mean? The things that I should be doing, you know? Like, "You don't want to do your homework, then..." "Yeah, I know." You know? I mean, I could almost like, even see it, you know, like that.

THERAPIST: That's he's told you, "You shouldn't be the..."

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I could see the... the folly of him, or whatever, I guess, I don't know. Superficial, like, but... (pause) But yeah, I suspect on some level, that's why... (pause) You know, on some level, of trying to get into this. I think maybe on some level, it might have something to do with me trying to kind of draw some space between those two intentions, you know? Because when my mom talks to me, and when she lectures me about why I need to be close with people in New Hampshire, I need to go up there more, she's assuming that the reason I'm not doing it are for the very reasons that I don't like to have to talk about it. I know that that's what's going on, you know what I mean? I think that's what really frustrates me about it, you know? [00:13:11]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think that's right. I was just thinking the same thing, like that... and in some way, by me saying, "Oh, you're like your dad," is it suggesting or implying the same thing, you're like your dad. (client affirms) And, as if, first of all, as if that's something that is not to be done (chuckles) and secondly, that, yeah, you guys are the exact (inaudible at 00:13:40/stutters?) that your intentions are what's signified by dad selfish, stick-in-the-mud, not, wanting it his own way... you know.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's being stubborn.

THERAPIST: Stubborn.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. (pause) I mean, that's definitely him, you know? Regardless, you know, if, I won't foreclose upon the possibility that he has his own very legitimate kind of hang-ups when it comes to doing things with family, based on his experience. I don't doubt that. He probably has all sorts of stuff like that, you know? But... that being said, you know, he is absolutely a stubborn, selfish, extraordinarily self-interested individual. You know? [00:14:54]

THERAPIST: My way or the high....

CLIENT: Yeah. He lives alone. I mean, that's... That's how he's going to always be. When he's not living alone, it's just a matter of time before he's living alone again, you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) (pause 00:15:12 to 00:15:36) Yeah, I don't know.

THERAPIST: What just (inaudible at 00:15:38).

CLIENT: I don't know, I feel like a lot of times I've... (pause) like when you said that to me the other week, like, it genuinely wasn't news to me, you know? Like I have really, on my own like, observed the similarities between that. But, I've just... I honestly, I guess, just figured it was just as self-evident as anything in the world. That's not because there is something actually similar going on; that's just like a really bizarre coincidence that these things seem to overlap, you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) (pause) But then when I... like really thinking about that, you know? I don't know. (pause) It's an uncomfortable thing today, to think about.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Can you say more about the uncomfortable part about it? I think that's pretty... [00:17:05]

CLIENT: Well, my mom might be right, you know? Despite all my clamor in here and despite the fact that maybe I'll find a way to really explain why I think I have solid ground to stand upon when I say that I shouldn't, you know, or that I'm justified in not wanting to be up there, not wanting to be close to people. Regardless, you know? I don't talk to my parents, ever, really. I genuinely don't like going, you know? Irregardless of what reasons or motivations might bring me to that, that... I don't know. Maybe that's really hard pool (ph) for them. You know?

THERAPIST: Regardless of your reasons, are you just drawing a line and being obstinate in some way? [00:18:06]

CLIENT: From their perspective, they, you know, they may very well be fully justified in viewing me, you know, very similarly as I'm describing my dad to you right now, you know? "Dan (ph) never comes up here, he never calls," you know what I mean? "He just doesn't, he just can't, you know, find a few minutes in his, you know, everyday life to give a call to his grandparents" or something, you know? I don't know. (pause) I could see that, you know? [00:18:45]

THERAPIST: Yeah. And what is associated with that? If you're seen like that, what is that association, what is the association like? To be like, you know, like his old man; he's like his old man, his dad.

CLIENT: My initial, you know, I don't even think about it like that. Like the first thing that just comes to my mind is, "That's just not fair," you know? Like, "What can I do with my family then, that is not just going to be painful in some way," you know what I mean? "It's going to be pain(stops), you know, it's just going to be really extraordinarily unpleasant for me to go up and spend time with them," you know what I mean? "How did I find myself in this double bind with these people?" [00:19:41]

THERAPIST: It's a double bind!

CLIENT: And that's what I mean. I feel like that's the doing of other people, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah, like flesh that out. What...

CLIENT: (pause) It's the by-product. I mean, that dynamic is the by-product of my experience with my family, you know?

THERAPIST: You didn't have the, like how, like I don't know that you'd have any choice in the matter.

CLIENT: Yeah, my parents did this. I didn't do this, you know? And that's just what is... You know, I don't want to upset my grandparents, you know what I mean? I don't want them to be sad or anything, you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) (pause) But I know that when my mom says stuff to me, like, "You know, they'd really love to hear from you"; I mean, I couldn't deny that, you know? She's probably right, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah, right. There is truth in that. I mean, yeah. [00:20:59]

CLIENT: I mean, it's just like "Why? How is that like the only thing that we can, you know, talk about? Me hurting my family," you know? (pause) I don't know. It's like I don't talk about how my family hurt me, you know? I don't just lob that casually, you know, in every single phone conversation that I have, you know what I mean? (therapist acknowledges) Does that make sense?

THERAPIST: Huh! Yeah, say that... wait, we pull that out. You don't... Talk about how your family hurt you (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't talk about that, you know? Because that, I know that that would be hurtful to them. You know, I just don't lie, you know. I... I'm not stupid. I know that my grandparents would like to be closer to me, you know what I mean? (pause 00:22:05 to 00:22:21)

THERAPIST: But it's like they're making you feel worse, or...?

CLIENT: (pause) It's like, yeah, why is it not the case that, you know, I'm not as close with my grandparents because of... for reasons that have to do with people other than me, you know? Couldn't that be a possibility, you know what I mean? Like...

(pause) I don't know. It just doesn't seem fair, for my mom to say stuff like that to me, you know? It's like, "You're right. We had a perfect family until I decided not to call my grandparents; you're totally right. I've fucked everything up for them," you know? "You're right." You know, "I'm... such a bad little thing (ph), whatever. You know, it's like, how do we get to that, you know? (therapist affirms) You know? [00:23:33]

THERAPIST: Well, I... one thing that just, is just what I'm hearing is like it's as if you... by not going to see your grandparents, and your mom saying, making this comment... What I sense is that in some way, it almost is like it's casting you in a similar light as your dad. And in that way, you feel like everything that you've done before has been undone by that, just one action. Like, some way, that that, it all gets undone and now you're in the category of like, your dad, and all that kind of represents. (client affirms)

You know, almost like, all that kind of giving and self-sacrifice and kind of looking out for other people, could be undone by that one thing (client affirms) and you feel like, "How the h*** did I get cast as this? Is all that other stuff prior to this one thing that I don't do, now is that just one thing, one slip-up and I... one slip-up to you and I'm that person to you? I'm this..."

CLIENT: No, that's what this is, that's my legacy now. [00:24:58]

THERAPIST: "That's my legacy now?" (client affirms) (pause) Almost like, yeah, that you feel that you get the sense that she's talking about a character, your character, or something like that. You know, not that it's even something that's conscious or something; but there is something about... You know, it really...

CLIENT: Yeah! No, I mean literally, she'll ask me sometimes not like, not just why I don't do it, but like, she'll say like, "Do you not want to?" You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yes! That's right. "What's in you, Dan?"

CLIENT: Like, no, literally. And that just seems so much more... (pause) I don't know. I just, I'd be, I'm... At that point, it's like, "No, I don't want to." I don't know, it's just... yeah. It's very... indicting, you know? [00:26:09]

THERAPIST: Yeah. You're indicted and like, you're imprisoned in like, that same kind of... like you're imprisoned in an identification with your father. Like, that's your sentence, in some way. (client affirms) You've got something in you like your... I mean, I'm just kind of having this fantasy (ph), it's almost like saying, "You've got something in you like your dad. You're like your dad."

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. My mom knows that my dad hated going up there. She absolutely knows that. (pause) You know, at some level, I feel like that shouldn't, you know, those shouldn't be the limits, you know. Be proactive with your family, be not like your dad or decide not to be that. You know, I mean, I'd feel like that's reductive, if I'm thinking about it with respect to me intentions, you know? I see my intentions as very different from my father's. (therapist acknowledges) But at the same time, it's the... there is the flip side, which is like... it can still be, you know, just as hurtful. [00:27:45]

THERAPIST: Well, what if it is hurtful? What if it does do that? What does that mean? If it hurts their feelings and... ?

CLIENT: (pause) That's... Then I have to... I have a responsibility now, you know. More people's feelings, you know?

THERAPIST: Huh! Huh!

CLIENT: And something I...

THERAPIST: Yeah. And if you don't want to be responsible for it, then...

CLIENT: Yeah, it's just reminded me of (ph) give or take, it's just like, "I'm not going to get," you know? "I'm not going to be hurt or whatever the opposite is," you know? "If we don't...," you know what I mean? And... (pause) Yeah. It's a... it's a frustrating dynamic. [00:28:55]

THERAPIST: Yeah, in some way, like if you don't do it, then you're being irrespon(stops), you're not responding, that you're not being responsible. You're not doing something for them that would be, that would make them hap(stops), you know... (client affirms) You're kind of saying "no," based upon your own kind of interests. Is that what you're...? Is that the feeling? Like, "I'm not going to call my grandparents just because it would make them happy." If you did that, then, what makes you any different than your dad, is that the kind of...?

CLIENT: Well, it's just, it's, the dynamic seems to be only: either my grandparents are upset or they're not upset. Like, me being upset is a completely, and zero-intuitive (ph), you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) It's like all I can do is upset or not upset, you know? And... yeah. And I feel like that's, like that's a worn-out kind of, like... you know? [00:29:55]

THERAPIST: Yeah! What seems to me important is, like, and maybe that gets kind of overlooked is, "What it is it like for you? What is this family like...?"

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, because if we're to take that view, you know... Like, once again, like it's, I'm, you know, my ability to relate to my family is dictated by the terms of, you know, my dad, you know? I mean, I can either just be him or not be him, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yes, right. (pause) So those two options, huh?

CLIENT: Yeah, you know?

THERAPIST: Not a lot of gray area in that, that kind of thing.

CLIENT: Would be that, it's not, there is no, you know, there is no "me" there, you know?

THERAPIST: There is no "me"?

CLIENT: It's either just him or not him, you know? I don't know. [00:30:54]

THERAPIST: That's, that's right!

CLIENT: And it's just...

THERAPIST: That's right. (pause) Yeah, that's right.

CLIENT: You know, I get resentful about the fact that I might be hurting my family, you know? It's like... (pause) I feel like that's like a... Yeah, I don't know.

THERAPIST: "You put this on me." Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah! "So, what can I do," you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: "I got put in this position, and I'm either hurting or not hurting," it seems (ph). (client affirms) That's the decision, responsibility.

CLIENT: And that's just what it, yeah. (pause) Yeah, it's... yeah. (pause) Literally that makes me... that emboldens me further to not want to talk to them, you know? It makes me literally like, at some level, angry at the whole concept of New Hampshire (ph), as a group of things, you know? [00:32:14]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think in some ways, as if your anger and your frustration is a way to try to find another, an out, a way to like, live outside of that dichotomy.

CLIENT: Yeah, which is not... which is like turning and looking away from that, I guess, I mean, you know? Yeah, on some level, like my dad, you know?

THERAPIST: Huh! Yeah, which is (inaudible/blocked) to be cast in that (inaudible).

CLIENT: Again, you know, it's just like neither one of the two things, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Right (ph) (blocked), right. If you turn away, then you are, then you're still maybe inside of the dichotomy. (client affirms) But I almost, like your anger is like a response to being inside of that dichotomy. (client affirms) You're like, "What the, how did it get to be like that?"

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because when, even as, you know, when I go up to New Hampshire, even if I... I feel like I can't have my own relationship, you know, like with my grandparents. I mean, I feel like I can either just do what my mom's telling me to do or not do, you know? I still, I feel like... Like I feel this, like... Like when I go up there, I feel like I'm, I'm "pledging allegiance to family," you know? (pause) Which feels like an act of, like, treason or something, you know what I mean? ... You know what I mean? [00:33:55]

THERAPIST: Huh! Yeah, well, say more about that.

CLIENT: Like, why should I have to... like why should family be that thing to me, you know? That I do to feel comfortable, you know? That, when I'm upset, I go to my family, you know? When I feel like my family makes me upset, you know what I mean? It's like, why do those terms have to apply?

THERAPIST: Yeah. That's one of the, that's kind of like with the, the, one of the unwritten rules of like, one goes to one's family when they're to be comforted, to get close. Is that...?

CLIENT: Yeah, people love being with their family, that they love their, that their families are a source of happiness, you know? (therapist affirms) (pause) In essence, I feel very outside of the whole thing, you know? [00:34:56]

THERAPIST: Yeah. That was true for your father, too.

CLIENT: Yeah, clearly. (pause)

THERAPIST: Now I feel (ph) solace from this family... He got away to get comfortable!

CLIENT: Hmm?

THERAPIST: He got away to get comfortable!

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah. (pause) Yeah, he definitely did. (pause 00:35:32 to 00:35:45) Yeah, I don't know. I mean, that's another thing I can imagine, that would like, literally allow me to feel like, really good with respect to it. Like, I've told you I have fantasies of like, literally doing like, what my dad did. (therapist affirms) And it seemed glorious, you know? Like, just disappearing. You know? Not even being like, in Boston and not going to New Hampshire, you know; but just like, not existing to my... you know what I mean? Just like, eliminated from the equation.

THERAPIST: Huh. Because that would be the only, that's the only way out of the dichotomy.

CLIENT: Yeah, and then you're... then you're free.

THERAPIST: Then you're free!

CLIENT: I mean, I think about this for so long, I've had those ideas, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Oh, okay. That makes sense. That you disappeared out of these things.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's not like being in Boston and not talking to them, you know? Because then they're just looking at you not, you know, looking back at them, you know what I mean? [00:36:52]

THERAPIST: It would be, that you'd be kind of invisible to them.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Like my father is, you know? (therapist affirms) He doesn't turn down invitations to do stuff with his family anymore, because they don't reach out to him anymore. ... You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, right. Well, he's then, he's free of that double bind...

CLIENT: If that's what his situation was.

THERAPIST: Right, right. Well, you mean, at least the fantasy is like, you'd be free of the double bind, in my own mind, right? Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, maybe my dad... (pause) Yeah, I think about it sometimes. It's like, yeah, you know what... Maybe I do have good reasons for feeling uncomfortable, being up in New Hampshire, you know? You know, maybe there is really some stuff there, beyond just "being immature." You know, but sometimes I think to myself, "Well, you know what? Your grandparents love you. They didn't do this to you. They didn't have any part in this. So put it aside, and just see them, you know, before they die. You know, you're right, you know, you're right, Dan, you do, you do have very, very legitimate reasons as to why this is not something that you would want to do, but, you know, your grandparents are, deserve you to kind of push that aside," or something, you know what I mean? [00:38:35]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. Or feel, still feels obligatory, an imperative, a moral imperative; as opposed to you going, "Yeah, I mean, maybe I'll do it anyway. You know, I understand they're not... "

CLIENT: Well, yeah, I mean, think like my grandparents, they didn't, they didn't... you know, like, why should, you know, should my grandparents be... subject to the... You know, why should they have to deal with the consequences of something that they weren't a part of, you know what I mean?

(pause 00:39:12 to 00:39:26) But it makes me feel like I don't... I don't have any desire to see them, because that's all it is. Because then for me to actually imagine doing that, it's not like I'm finding a way to get my own desire, which is inhibited over some... thing, but it's just allowing the fact that they want to see me to... trump (ph) for a minute.

THERAPIST: That's right! I don't think there is any space for that desire to emerge, whether or not it's there or not.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, for whatever reason. But that's what I think, when I actually imagine doing it. Like, if, I... and I said this to Laney the other night when we were having that conversation that I mentioned. Like, it makes me really think that I just have no desire to see them. (pause 00:40:14 to 00:40:29)

THERAPIST: I was just thinking, who would know? (chuckles) You never (ph) get at the chance to really figure out feeling in this bind. (client affirms) Like, one hand, you're either like, you know, you're either shirking your duties or obliging, and being good or bad almost, almost in those kind of terms. Then, even if you step out of that and go, "Listen this isn't about my grand(stops), my grandparents didn't put me in this position. I should..." And they're bummed out, that I'm not... So I have to put this bind I feel myself in aside and just do it anyway. And even that, though, can't, it doesn't get you to that level of "What's my real desire? What do I want, do I really want to see them or not?"

CLIENT: Like, and that's what's interesting, right? Like, that would be, for me to say that to my mom... I wouldn't say it to my mom. Because that's... that's almost the possibility that's so bad, that she even just kind of hints at it in our conversations, like, "Do you not want to do this?" You know, the assumption being that like, for you to not want to do this would be like... a really bad thing, you know what I mean? [00:41:50]

THERAPIST: Oh, so you wouldn't bring it up, just because she might insinuate that in that, you don't really want to do this?

CLIENT: Yeah, that's not... that's not...

THERAPIST: That's not on the table.

CLIENT: That's a bad thing.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh, that's a bad thing.

CLIENT: Because my grandparents love me, and... you know what I mean? But it's funny, though like, I... I don't either, you know, want to or not want to, I have no, I'm completely apathetic about the rest of my family, you know? Like, in Wales, for example.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that doesn't make you a bad guy.

CLIENT: Yeah! You know, I'm a good guy, because...

THERAPIST: That's your dad's side.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: That's right! I'm a good guy, because I don't even ask. I'm cool with it being them not being part of my life. Yes, you can say that.

CLIENT: Yeah, you know, you never ask me about them or anything, you know? I don't know.

THERAPIST: That's right. That doesn't make you bad, that you don't ask around, or go, you know, I want to see my grandparents, I want to see my extended family in Wales. [00:42:53]

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm not trying to call them. (therapist affirms) I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. See, that's, this is kind of my point about what your dad was at... who the hell knows, I don't know your dad. But, I was thinking like in some way, that your dad might have had some experience of this, too, with your mom in terms of, can he only be seen as either "you're going with the current or you're against it and being a stick in the mud." Some difficulty may be your mom might have been encountering, thinking outside of that dichotomy with him, and he might have been picking up on it, and then like, "I'm being... you know, cast as good or bad, depending on it. I don't want to be involved! I want to disappear! I want to get the fuck out of it!" (client affirms) You know?

I mean, because the guy had his own feelings about family. It had nothing to do with your mom. (client affirms) (pause) And he wouldn't take one for the team either. He also wasn't taking one for the team. He was pretty clear about that, he wasn't going to do that. (client affirms) (pause) But there is also some way that it left a weight behind, that he didn't, he had to kind of ignore it in some way, in a way that you're trying to contend with it. You're trying to really... [00:44:22]

CLIENT: Well, marriage has divorce, you know? Family doesn't have like, a legal option to sever ties. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: You don't have any options. ...But I know when I see this, I kind of wonder what your reactions are like going to be, to talk about your dad in that way.

CLIENT: Well, this seems like a very humanizing discussion of my father, in all honesty, you know? It's a very sympathetic look at maybe what's going on with him, you know? That maybe he, you know, it's something other than just this kind of... stubbornness, selfishness, or something. But... It has the effect of seeming to kind of come full circle, or something, you know? [00:45:17]

THERAPIST: Yeah, how do you mean...?

CLIENT: Well, I try to disassociate the two of us sometimes, by the fact that... you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah! Because it was so easy to get, I think, lumped into that, that way of thinking about it. And maybe your dad even felt that way. (chuckles) I don't know!

CLIENT: Yeah, maybe.

THERAPIST: Those were the terms.

CLIENT: Maybe.

THERAPIST: Your response to your mom is some way of trying to... acknowledging that that's a limiting kind of, some way of limiting, it's a limiting kind of experience, that limits your experience of the family, and how you can feel. (client affirms) It's confined, it's been kind of confining, you know? In some way to you.

CLIENT: Yeah, very, yeah, constricting. Yeah. (pause) Yeah. (pause 00:46:28 to 00:46:42]

THERAPIST: What are you...? What are you...?

CLIENT: I don't know. I just think family, you know, I just think it's, by design, messy. You know what I mean? It's a sticky area. (pause) (therapist affirms) And it's just interesting, because like, thinking about this for like, my, it just, it seems to, it seems to almost like validate my dad's decision to just say... "Sayonara," you know? "This is a sinking ship," or something, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Oh. Well, there is one way of trying to get out of that, kind of...

CLIENT: Or renegotiate terms. [00:47:50]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. Sometimes it's like, meaning you walk away from the table and never come back.

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly.

THERAPIST: I think what you've done and maybe as you're saying this, because you're family, not married but... It seems to me like you're trying to stay at the negotiation table and arrange a new... yeah. With I know of some way, some feeling like, "This is a pretty intractable kind of position the other side has." You're feeling like, "I'm in it, I'm not...I want..." I don't know.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, I'm... more committed to working at it, on some level. I don't know. [00:48:52]

THERAPIST: Well, yeah, yeah. I mean. And part of that, I think, means that you, do you know, you have your own awareness of wanting to walk the hell away, get away, disappear.

CLIENT: Uh-hmm. (pause) I know we've gone (inaudible at 00:49:15) (blocked). No, that was, that was good.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: Yeah. It went well, that will give me a lot to think about.

THERAPIST: Thanks a lot, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. That feels like new territory. (inaudible) within a familiar topic, (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Yeah, no, I'll say. I think it is... there is a lot there. And it's interesting, it does come up around this, the one kind of hot area, the real hot area between your mom..., the hottest seems to be this.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. This is one of the things that... yeah. Talk about women's stuff (ph) (inaudible). All right. Thank you.

THERAPIST: Yeah, you're welcome.

CLIENT: I'll see you on Monday.

THERAPIST: See you Monday.

END TRANSCRIPT