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[Joined in progress]

THERAPIST: I'll just...

CLIENT: Um... And I think, you know, the only part of the conversation was just sort of like a, I think just sort of, without me realizing, it just kind of turned into a... I don't know. Like, just sort of like an assessment, or me feeling like I wanted to kind of... see what, he noticed a certain... certain... kind of... areas of progress that I feel like, you know, in retrospect, kind of looking back on it, and stepping back, I feel like have really, have really occurred... for some reason. Maybe because I felt like I wanted to add something positive after me saying that I feel like the (inaudible) by coming here. [00:00:58]

I think that that, you might take that as me saying, "I don't like to be here," or something. So maybe I felt like I had to... give a compliment or something (therapist affirms), I don't know, you know what I mean? But uh... (pause) Yeah, yeah. I remember it was a nice conversation. And I think it was pretty accurate, my expectation of what it would be like, with you being away. (therapist responds) You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah, what did you find?

CLIENT: I was pretty busy. (pause) I think it was a nice recess, so to speak. (therapist affirms) It was... I missed it, and I didn't miss it at the same time, you know? (pause) Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, talk to me. So you, can you say more about it? Missed it and didn't miss it, too? [00:02:11]

CLIENT: I missed it, in the sense that, you know, I didn't come for like was it, two weeks, week and a half, or something. You know, and on those days, I didn't find myself like... you know, on Monday mornings, it wasn't like that... you know, was up at 7:00 and thinking to myself, "Oh, man! I wish I could, I wish I could be coming down here," you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) Or I'm getting out at work or something, it wasn't like, "Oh, man! Just wish I could come out here." I just wasn't thinking that, you know what I mean? But, at the same time... I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't have a... liked the idea that I was never going to be getting back here, you know what I mean? (therapist responds) I don't really know what to infer from that, but I'm just reflecting on it (therapist responds), you know? [00:03:10]

THERAPIST: What did you notice, the days that we didn't, did you notice, how do you feel about what you were, you know, what was coming, you know, what (blocked) (inaudible).

CLIENT: Well, Thursday (ph), I just didn't... it was a relief, because I didn't notice any , I didn't think about anything, I didn't...

THERAPIST: You didn't think about it.

CLIENT: I... you know what I mean? It was... yeah. Just the absence of feeling compelled to... get into stuff, you know what I mean? (therapist responds) Yeah. And that's relaxing.

THERAPIST: It's relaxing!

CLIENT: To an extent. You know what I mean? Like right now, you know, even like, when I was coming here this morning, I was kind of thinking to myself like, "Geez, I don't know, you know, what I'm going to talk about," you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) Yeah, I don't know, there is something... I mean, I talked about this last time I was here. There is some... There is some requirement to... engage and the process of thinking about things that I just simply would not do otherwise, which is both what makes this, I think, beneficial and unique, but also kind of taxing. [00:04:34]

THERAPIST: But you're, yeah, because it seems like, Geoffrey, you're getting at like, something about... you know, the demand quality. What, that, you're talking about the reaction to like, the kind of implicit demand quality of it like, of... Yeah, obviously, you know, on one level, yeah, you came here to talk about what's on your mind, but then you're also saying, but then there, it's kind of then there becomes this, another layer to it, around like, the requirement quality to it, that, you know... And it's taxing and it's a relief to take a break from it (client affirms), and um... you know like, that "What am I going to talk about?" I'm sure there is just a lot to all that (client affirms) you know. [00:05:31]

CLIENT: Yeah, and you know, and I'll say it again, I said something along these lines last time... (pause) It was easy to not be there, you know what I mean? I know, I feel like I know how to not be there, better than I know how to be there (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Okay, yeah.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? I feel like... you know, for those two weeks, I just sort of went right back into... the way of doing things and thinking about things that I did for, you know, 24 years before I ever came in, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah?

CLIENT: And that's still a comfortable zone, you know, a place I can... just very easily slip back into.

THERAPIST: Huh!

CLIENT: Just not be reminded of this stuff or (therapist affirms)... You know what I mean? [00:06:27]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah! You know, for whatever reason, it's reminding me... It's not the same, but it's reminding me a little bit of... of that time... when we spoke over the phone while you were at camp (client affirms). How you were kind of, afterwards, I remember you saying, "I'm surprised I even did that!" (pause) And maybe it's the idea that like, there is some way that, the way you described it is like, when you went to that camp, there was a way of feeling like... I remember you kind of almost feeling like, a peaceful, "I'm away from everything. And... and I'm okay here. I don't need to be... you know like, I'm good without talking, I can go on in this mode and I can, I've done this before, I'm..." [00:07:37]

CLIENT: (affirms) No, yeah...

THERAPIST: I don't know why. Something about, yeah, something about the way you were describing it, at a certain level of, "I can handle this," kind of.

CLIENT: Yeah! No, no, I mean, and it doesn't mean that it's like... What differentiates those two things isn't entirely clear to me and it's not... (pause) You know, it's not that like, one side I feel more in control than another side, or something. I mean, in some ways, maybe it is, but... You know, it's similar to like, it's just where I guess I just feel more at home or something. I mean, I think about it even with like, smoking cigarettes.

(pause) I know that I really shouldn't be doing it. I know that I should stop. I know that it's a bad thing to do, but... I'm more comfortable doing it. I feel at home, and I feel almost more... able to... I don't know. I just feel more, I don't know, for some reason, I just am, it feels like a similar type of (therapist responds) type of idea. Not that I know it's right; I know that it's probably not the best. But I just feel like I can operate more comfortably. I feel more... I feel more in my own, I feel... (therapist affirms) you know what I mean? It's something I'm more used to, you know what I mean? [00:09:17]

Even though I know that I'm doing something that is probably, you know, you're bringing on these horrible consequences, in the long run it's not for the best. It's a routine, it's a habit, it's a way of doing things that, once I stopped smoking, you know, if I tried to quit and I don't have a cigarette for a couple of days, then I become just like, I don't know, things just start like unravelling or something, you know what I mean? (inaudible), you know, all, everything else starts kind of coming back into question, I find myself start thinking even more about, you know, consequences of smoking, even more than I was thinking about it when I, you know what I mean? And it's part of a, just sort just a habit and just a routine of doing all sorts of different things, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's almost like you're describing like a kind of a way, it's like, psychological glue that keeps things together or something. [00:10:13]

CLIENT: Yeah, it's just comfortable, I guess. (therapist affirms) Yeah, yeah... (pause) Yeah. Yeah, I don't know.

THERAPIST: And I think, in a way like, (sighs) I don't know. This might be too formulaic to say, but something about coming here and working, you know, talking about this stuff... (pause) Well, there is two levels I'm thinking about it. One is that you come here to talk about it, and there is, you know, a lot of the stuff, a lot of the kind of like, the... well, it's like you're not... you're not in a position of feeling very comfortable. [00:11:11]

Like, you know, you're talking about all this stuff with your mom and your dad that has so much meaning to you. It's particularly in how you see them, I think, especially as we've been talking about your mom. (client affirms) And... (pause) And then, there is that whole other layer of, you feeling like you're supposed to be talking about it to, that's in here. Like, you're supposed to come in here and talk about those things. That's why you're here and...

CLIENT: At the end of the day, I mean, I... no one else brought me here but myself. (therapist repeats) You know, I wasn't... I wasn't held into it by someone else, by an authority figure or something, you know what I mean? (therapist responds) It's a... yeah.

THERAPIST: But it could be a bit... you know like, you know how to write a term paper (chuckles) you know? (client affirms)

CLIENT: Yeah. No, there is definitely an element like that. [00:12:22]

THERAPIST: (inaudible) (blocked) Master's, you know, thesis or something?

CLIENT: Yeah, no there is definitely like, a... (pause) an element of... (pause) in all honesty, or something, you know? Part of it, I think, has something to do with the feeling of... when I come here, I feel like I'm in a place where... there is a unique set of circumstances that require me to be honest in a way that...

THERAPIST: Honest...

CLIENT: ...I'm not, when I'm not here.

THERAPIST: Huh!

CLIENT: And that I'm more, that I'm kind of even more comfortable, you know, not doing, you know, which is like what I felt like for the last couple of weeks, you know what I mean? But... (therapist affirms) Does that make sense? You know? (therapist affirms) I don't know. I guess when I sit here, I feel like it's sort of like a mirror turned around on me or something, you know?

THERAPIST: Mirror turned around on you... [00:13:30]

CLIENT: (pause) I feel like there is...

THERAPIST: Which way is it pointing?

CLIENT: I guess not turned around, but like at me, you know what I mean? I have a... (pause) There are things, and there are topics in question that are sort of... up in the air, that just never really come up. Like, even with Laney, for example, you know? That's someone that I'm really close with, and I spend every single day with, but these are not... When I see you, I mean, what, I mean, those are the things I'm talking about, you know what I mean? That's what you expect, on some level, I think, that that's what I've put out there, you know? They're just not things that are up in the air with Laney; like, ever. I don't want them to come up, you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) I wouldn't want them to be 24 hours a day, and things that are out there, in the way that they are here. [00:14:42]

THERAPIST: You mean you don't talk to Laney about them? (client affirms) Oh, okay.

CLIENT: No, yeah, I mean, and, and I... You know, Laney knows I come here twice a week, but I never even mention to her what it is that I'm talking about here.

TTHERAPIST: Oh, huh!

CLIENT: You know, she never really asks, you know?

THERAPIST: (pause) What, what do you...?

CLIENT: (pause) I don't know. I feel like I'm... I feel like I'm just rambling. I'm just kind of saying what I'm thinking about.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And what did that make you feel, as you were doing that?

CLIENT: I don't know. (pause) I don't know. Like, I just don't know where to keep going with it, I guess. (therapist affirms) I don't know. [00:15:47]

THERAPIST: (pause) Did you notice anything, was there something that I did, or did you notice anything about that?

CLIENT: No, I guess I'm just, I don't know. Like, I'm just trying to think about like, what to... (pause) what to think about... (pause) Like, you know like, that instance with Laney, for example, you know? Like, some, you know, I'm really aware of the fact that here, that there is a... sort of a variety of topics and things that would be uncomfortable for me to talk about, things that I can sort of call into question, things that have become a little bit more self-evident in the way that we talk about things here and all, like my parents or something. I've become a lot more comfortable here, sort of like, expressing anger at my parents, anger at different people, you know what I mean? That... I just completely... you know, completely just not the case outside of here, you know what I mean? Like, that there, it's so different in that sense. [00:17:11]

(pause) And I think about that sometimes. You know, "What's the implication of that?" You know what I mean? (pause) And I worry sometimes about like... how much I feel like I'm expected (by myself or by you), to be able to take those things and carry them into, you know, my life and experiences outside of here, you know what I mean? (pause) Yeah. And it's, I don't know, it's a topic that is... one that always makes me feel like, a little nervous when I start thinking about it. (therapist affirms) [00:18:13]

(inaudible) Yeah, I sat right here and told you a while ago, that before I came here and even through our, sort of like the, early sessions that we've had, for a while I always kind of had this fantasy in my head that, if through our conversations I... sort of articulate something to you about my dad that would be... you know, akin to me being so angry like, or if I would discover through my conversations with you that I had to like, excommunicate my dad or something... I wouldn't know what to do with that. I mean, I fear that, in our conversations, we would get to a point where the inevitable conclusion would be that I had to like, cut ties with my dad.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And it made me nervous to talk about my dad, because I knew that I wouldn't be able to do that, or something.

THERAPIST: Okay, yeah, I remember that.

CLIENT: Even before I even started talking about my dad with you, that was just this like, lurking possibility in my head, you know what I mean? [00:19:20]

THERAPIST: Yeah, no, it's an important fantasy.

CLIENT: Like, what happens if we, if...

THERAPIST: If you say something here about, you know, your dad or being angry with your dad, or that is some implication that you're supposed to then do something about it, or (client affirms), is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah, you know, but that theme of... "What are the expectations for the things that I say here, when I leave?" You know what I mean? When I'm not here. How do I... reconcile those things, you know? Now, when I'm here and I'm coming regularly, it's something that I'm constantly thinking about. I mean, it's something that I noticed was just gone when I wasn't coming here like, for the last week and a half.

You know, when I talked to my parents, I didn't have a lot of those thoughts in my head. I mean, just like, a casual conversation on the phone or something. And sometimes, I'd imagine, when I'm talking to my dad and my mom, like you, if you could be like, looking over my shoulder and seeing my interactions with them, and sort of assessing the extent to which I was being consistent with what I was saying here or not, (therapist affirms) you know what I mean? And... I mean, it wasn't in like a literal sense. I could understand logically the ways in which that might not carry (ph), but for some reason, that's just the dynamic that weighs heavily, you know what I mean? [00:20:53]

THERAPIST: Yeah, there, almost like, a kind of a question about expectation, that kind of follows you outside the session to "should I be saying/seen (ph)... you know, as opposed to when I'm away, that's maybe less than the...

CLIENT: And that's what I mean by honesty, you know what I mean? Like, the extent to which I can be consistent is the extent to which I feel like I'm being honest.

THERAPIST: Huh!

CLIENT: You know? (therapist affirms) Like, if I come here and I just... sort of ramble on about how upset I am about my parents and the things that piss me off about them, but then I go and I get on the phone with them, you know, and don't carry that anger into those interactions.

THERAPIST: It's being duplicitous or something.

CLIENT: For some reason, I don't even know why, but for some reason, it just makes me feel like I'm doing something dishonest and doing something... I don't know, dishonest to you or me or my parents (therapist responds) or something. (pause) Yeah. You know, and it worries me, I guess (therapist affirms), to an extent, you know? And that's not something that I felt as much when you were away, you know what I mean? (therapist affirms) [00:22:08]

(pause) You know, it would be like in high school. I mean, I remember this happened all the time. There would be, you know, I'd be talking with one friend, and that friend would be just, you know, on and on, all the things that they hate about one of our other friends, you know? And then, the next day, I see them just like, hanging out and having a blast together. In my head, I'm just like, "Why are you...? You know, you shouldn't be doing that," you know. It's either that or it's that, you know what I mean? You need to kind of pick a side, or something (therapist responds), you know?

That's what I feel like I'm doing sometimes, you know? And it's sort of like, amplifies my feelings of... (pause) Like, on the one hand, I'll be here, and I'll feel very sort of empowered sometimes when we have conversations about, you know, my parents or something. I'll feel empowered with the way that I can talk about them, you know, I mean, ways that are new or something, you know? But when I, and I do that, I sort of feel like I'm untied (ph) or something. Then when I leave, then... and I feel like I'm doing the polar opposite of that, it sort of amplifies my feelings of... you know, fear or something (therapist responds) or... you know? It's a... yeah. And it calls into question just my feelings of being sort of fake or something (therapist responds) dishonest or... I don't know. Sometimes I feel like (inaudible) have an obligation to you to be more... proactive outside of here or something... you know what I mean? [00:24:07]

THERAPIST: I see, yeah, and you're supposed to, be one way or something.

CLIENT: Yeah. Or in my head sometimes, I... you know, I'm going to interact with my parents or something. I just really think, you know, critically like... You know, "How do I be consistent," or something. (therapist affirms) "Is this being inconsistent, you know, with, kind of, the things that we've spoken about?"

THERAPIST: Yeah. And if you're not, it's like you're not being real or...

CLIENT: It's infidelity or something. I don't know, it's...

THERAPIST: Yeah, I see what you're saying. Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, it feels like when I was, when I would sit around with my dad. He would (inaudible) my mom (ph) and I would (inaudible) my mom (ph), not say anything, you know what I mean? You know, that's inconsistent, you know what I mean? There is a conflict there, or something. You know? [00:25:12]

THERAPIST: Yeah. What about that? What was that? What did that mean to you? (pause) From both sides, I guess. (ph)

CLIENT: I mean... I don't know what it means to me, but you know, immediately, what it just makes me feel like is I'm... I'm... (pause) I'm being dishonest, I'm not being principled, I'm not, you know, I'm being governed by my... sort of, anxiety and fear (therapist responds) as opposed to what I know I should be doing, or what I know I should do, what's right, I mean... (therapist affirms) And that's the perspective that, you know, only I can see, kind of, you know what I mean? Because it's the only one who gets stuck between these things. It makes me feel like, "God, maybe that is, you know, not evident to like..." I mean, that's not evident to you or something, you know? [00:26:22]

THERAPIST: That's right, yeah, yeah. At some level, like I was thinking you feel (as you were remarking on), I might feel empowered when I'm here, but when I leave, I feel there could be a level of anxiety that I feel that I'm not, that me, as if they, I don't see outside and then you're stuck with it, but maybe all I could see is, you know, you're not being, what happened to the empowered guy that was here?

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, you're looking at me, almost, the way that I like, my friend that I was just, it's like that I friend that I was just talking about. (therapist affirms) You know? (therapist affirms) (pause) I think that's the reason I don't like to talk to Laney too much about what we talk about here, too, because she sees me interact with my parents almost every time I do now, you know. Whether it's just me on the phone, she hears me talking to them, when I see my parents, now she's almost always around, you know what I mean? [00:27:23]

THERAPIST: Huh! Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So, to some extent, it's not... (therapist affirms) a bit more of omniscient (ph) perspective on this thing.

THERAPIST: No, right, right, right, right. And I guess, maybe therein, too, is like the question of what can, would she, you know, the anxiety that I feel around these issues when I'm actually with my parents, you know... It's not something... People will just see that I'm being one way when I'm with them, another way with them... they're not seeing this anxiety that I'm feeling or the... (pause) you know, the... that scared feeling that you have.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, they don't, yeah, don't see the disparity, they don't see the discrepancy that's going on. You know what I mean? I mean, they...

THERAPIST: They don't see the fear that's there.

CLIENT: Well, yeah, that arises from it. Absolutely, yeah. They only, you know... [00:28:20]

THERAPIST: I was thinking, you know, as you've been talking, I was thinking that anything, I was just alert to the fact that we don't talk much about Laney, you and Laney here. And I wondered if that has, if there is anything that you notice or...

CLIENT: You did that before to me, too, one time, I remember. And it's like, "Oh, that's right." (ph) (therapist affirms) I mean, I said something about Laney in one of our meetings, and I remember you said that you felt like it was the most... I forget your words, it was like the most... I think, reverberating most with you or you felt it was the most like, deep (ph) thing we were getting (ph) into or something, which struck me as really odd, because that wasn't my experience, but...Yeah, it was interesting. Yeah, I don't talk about Laney a lot here, and you (ph). That strikes, I mean, I don't talk about... I don't know... a lot of things. I was talking to you earlier about it (ph) (blocked). [00:29:27]

THERAPIST: No, (inaudible)

CLIENT: It's not like eating ice cream, you know what I mean? You know.

THERAPIST: Yeah, no. It's not like, I'm here saying, "Hey, you know, what, it's time to talk about Laney!" (chuckles)

CLIENT: No, you're... and I'm not being defensive, as if you're like, making an accusation or anything, but I just find it, I just find it interesting maybe what... those two different kind of ideas that we have about that. I want my... no, yeah, I don't think I've ever really spoken about Laney here with you. (therapist affirms) (pause) Yeah, I guess on some level, you know, I don't really talk a lot with Laney about you, either.

THERAPIST: That's what, yeah. It's something about that, that made me think about all this, yeah. (pause) Well, I mean, you know, just one implication, just concretely, given what we were talking about, it's like, you know, if you start talking about, you know, Laney here, does that bring in another level of (chuckles) what, you know, "You're here one way, you're there another way," and this whole kind of... you know, does it bring in another topic that you have to feel all these things about, what you feel with your folks? [00:30:55]

CLIENT: Yeah, no. Sure, definitely trying to contain or...

THERAPIST: I mean, I don't know. Maybe it's not at all, but just given the conversation, I was wondering... (pause) wondering about...

CLIENT: Do you wonder about that? About, is that, you know, when you try to paint a picture of me, does that seem like a kind of boring section or...

THERAPIST: I'll tell, what it feels like to me is more that I just notice it. I don't know what, you know, I don't know what to think about it.

CLIENT: No, of course, yeah.

THERAPIST: But it's more of like... yeah, just something that I, you know, I notice like, "Oh, I wonder what that's about."

CLIENT: Yeah, no. I mean, it's interesting, because even here, thinking about it, I think I've only ever spoken about her in very kind of mechanical terms. I don't think I've ever sort of talked about her with you in very... you know, as an object of emotion or something, you know. [00:31:54]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, the sleeping together, the sleeping together in the same bed, you talked about what that was like, the waking up from the dreams and everything (client affirms) and the... That I remember. But yeah, yeah, so...

CLIENT: We were just talking about (ph), I mean, is like, my feelings (therapist affirms) about her, it is that word, I guess. Yeah, I'm just noticing, you know. I don't really know what to make of that, but... (pause) You know, there is definitely a... (pause) I suspect there is probably something to the notion of wanting to kind of limit the... destabilizing effects of bringing things into this arena, probably. But I also feel like I can talk about Laney anywhere outside of here. (therapist affirms) You know? I want to come here to talk about things that I can't talk about anywhere else. I talk about Laney to anybody, who will ask about Laney, you know what I mean? That's not the kind of stuff I want to talk about when I'm here. [00:33:18]

THERAPIST: Okay, yeah.

CLIENT: You know? The kind of stuff I guess feel like I should talk about when I'm here, maybe. (inaudible) you know what I mean? I guess if I had to imagine what you... you know, like I did a lot in the past like, "What does Kevin want me to be? Talking about here?" I guess I wouldn't assume that that would be something, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's why like, you know, I hesitate to say like, you know, say anything about it sometimes. It's like, well, is it going to be something that we end up feeling like, we ought to talk about, "Oh, yeah, here is another thing I have to, just...

I feel like Kevin would want me to talk about it (client affirms), if I don't talk about it, what's he think?"

But, it's interesting, though, because you'll say, you know, you're pretty clear like, "Now, listen, I don't, not much to talk about there." And with your folks, though, there is this feeling of, there is much more this feeling of I'm expecting it and you're feeling, you know, you're feeling something from me like I, you know, you should be talking about it. (client affirms) It's not like you feel with your folks you can kind of, you know, draw that same line. You feel... [00:34:33]

CLIENT: No, I was just thinking the exact same thing, that, yeah, I was actually, right as you said that, I was just thinking that as well. I'm very comfortable. Like, interestingly enough, after all my clamoring about wanting to know from you what you want for me to talk about, even after hearing you say that it's something that you're interested in (therapist affirms), you give me very clear messages like... that (chuckles) you, that it's something that you (inaudible) in a direction you're very interested in going in. There is a real discrepancy between the level of confidence between (therapist affirms) saying, "I don't want to talk about that..."

THERAPIST: Yeah, I remember you saying that.

CLIENT: ...as opposed to my inability to say that I either want to or don't want to when it comes to my parents, you know what I mean? It's interesting, it's very interesting.

THERAPIST: It is, it is. [00:35:20]

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Yeah. (pause) Is that, what, is that, does that seem like a... unusual reaction to, I mean referring back like, to my parents. Like, dishonesty thing. Like, if I, you know, if I say stuff in here, I feel like I'm being hypocritical or something. Sometimes I feel like if I'm going to say something, I have to be prepared to follow through with it, you know what I mean? When I'm outside of here, I'm very careful with my words, you know what I mean? I think about what is, "What's going to follow?" If I say this thing to this person, then, you know, what does that mean for the next day and the next day and the next? With my parents, you know what I mean? [00:36:22]

THERAPIST: Yeah, do I feel, you're wondering if I find it unusual?

CLIENT: That, I mean, because here, I feel like one of the things that's unique about this place is that those sort of concerns have been relaxed a little bit. I feel like I can talk about things a little bit more, sort of freedom (therapist affirms) from the demand that I have to... follow up on it, you know? (therapist affirms) I'm sorry, I'm know that it's...

THERAPIST: No, no, no! Oh, yeah. (inaudible)

CLIENT: No, no, I mean, I just wonder what, is that...?

THERAPIST: No, what I think I know what you're getting at. I think it is, it's very, I mean, I find it to be a very important... um... I think it's a very important like, impression, a kind of like, meaning you make of like what you're supposed to do and what you're not supposed to do. There is a lot to it that I think we, you know, as conversations like this help to unpack. And I think, because I think it's very important. As you've noticed in like, a lot of the decisions and the way you feel... I don't know, a sense of kind of, "What's mine, what am I responding to, who am I," all these things. [00:37:47]

(pause) I mean, maybe it's just best left to say that, the best way to put it, I can think of is that there is just a lot to unpack about it all, about this particular fantasy about what you're supposed to do and not supposed to do. It's, very vivid (ph) (blocked) that, you know, it's, I think it's an important topic, I mean we have to talk about it. (inaudible)

Because, you know, (inaudible), it was like, it came alive so much and it come alive with like, you know the guy that you were, you know, leaving the job from, you know, about the union and... (pause) You know, it's all the, it comes out in different areas and it certainly, it's alive here in that one regard. (client affirms) And yet, you know, it's also important to know, like it seems to be relegated to this area about talking about your folks, maybe other things, too, but, you know, you can also say pretty clearly with me, "Hey, I don't need it. If I don't want to talk about Laney, I don't have to." (chuckles) You know, like it's not like it's across the board. Something about this. [00:39:08]

CLIENT: Yeah, there is some other significant variable that evokes that... thing, yeah. Yeah, cool.

THERAPIST: Well! All right, Thursday!

CLIENT: Um, yeah. Hey, before I go away, there is one more appointment that you're not making? I didn't...

THERAPIST: That's right. Next Monday I'm not here.

CLIENT: Okay, so it's a week from today?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Okay, cool. I just, I wasn't sure what that was, so we're on Thursday.

THERAPIST: That's right.

CLIENT: Not a week from today. [ends in progress]

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