TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Monday we're not meeting?

THERAPIST: Right. Monday we're not meeting. And then Thursday we meet. And then you're off to France, or will you be in...

CLIENT: Yeah, that's right.

THERAPIST: Will you be in Manchester first or...

CLIENT: France first. So no Monday.

THERAPIST: No Monday. (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, I'll be in France, first, for a little while, about a week, a little more than a week. [00:01:18.16] And then I'll go and head down to Edinburgh and...

THERAPIST: Is that where your sister lives?

CLIENT: She lives there now. She's lived there for a while, yeah. She grew up in Ireland, obviously, but for a while she's been in Edinburgh. She went there for work or something. That's where she met Marcus, the guy that she's getting married to. Yeah, my dad will we'll get there on the 7th, which would be a Wednesday, and my dad will be flying in the same day. So we'll be there for her from about Wednesday to Sunday, and then I'm home. Which is I mean geez, that's under two weeks now that I'll leave. Yeah, it'll be nice. It'll be nice. Yeah, it's just wild, it's just weird today, being at Texas A&M and I think that I'll may be there again two more times. I quit the restaurant the other day. [00:02:38.08]

THERAPIST: You did.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, which was really not a difficult thing to do, as much as I mean not only nowhere near as difficult as it was at Texas A&M, which isn't surprising, but it wasn't even as difficult as I kind of thought it was going to be.

THERAPIST: Or when you left the place in Burnley.

CLIENT: Or even there, yeah. Even there either.

THERAPIST: The Crab Shack, is that what...

CLIENT: Yeah, Crab Shack, yeah. But largely I just didn't I just don't care so much about that job or the people there.

THERAPIST: Really.

CLIENT: The management at least, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, what was it like? [00:03:26.09]

CLIENT: I mean I went into that job knowing that I was going to quit now. So I think I, on some level, probably resisted even getting close enough with any of the management such that I might find myself in that predicament again, like I had done you know what I mean? But I totally lied to them. I feel like I want to say between you and me, but obviously that's between you and me. Like if I said that to anybody else. I took the job because I needed work at that time. That was when I was coming out of that work with my dad.

THERAPIST: I know.

CLIENT: And he I needed something really quickly and this looked like it was going to work, and this that was only about two months ago. And I knew that it was going to make it pretty difficult to get work if I told her I was only looking for two months. And they asked me. They said, "What are you going to be doing the next year." And I said, "I'll be in school but I'm going to be I'm still going to need a job." But I knew that I wasn't..

THERAPIST: You knew, yeah.

CLIENT: And when I quit the other day I just mentioned some issues I was having with some of the management, which maybe I've convinced myself this. [00:05:09.15] I didn't say to them, I'm leaving because I'm going on a trip and then I'm going to be in school; I don't want to work anymore. I really I made it [inaudible] selecting reasons that would as to why I would've left anyways. You know what I mean? I just I didn't mention anything. I didn't tell anyone at work I was going on this trip or anything. But I genuinely feel like some of the reasons that I gave would've led me to leave that job, even if I was going to even if I wasn't going on this trip or anything and I just needed to work indefinitely. I probably would've left for the same reasons. But yeah, it was just it was a boldfaced lie that I knew I was that I knew before I even got the job that I was going do it the whole time I was there. [00:06:13.06] It was sort of a deception when I'm not telling the management every single day that I was planning on leaving, giving the impression that I was planning on staying. You know what I mean? Yeah, I don't know. It just feels weird. It feels a lie. It feels like a very different thing for me to do. Feels to conflict with very critical expectations of honesty and everything and not wanting to put my interests up against somebody else's [inaudible] that was the case at Texas A&M and it was the case at Crab Shack and everything. Thinking so much about other people's feelings and I just that it would've been impossible for me to do that at P.F. Chang's if I was being as attentive to those thoughts and concerns. [00:07:30.13] You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, no, I hear you.

CLIENT: It's weird. I lied to them. I lied to them. I was completely dishonest with them. And I still am being. You know what I mean? I could've taken the job and lied to them and then when I was leaving say you know what, I lied to you. I actually had this coming. I'm leaving. You know what I mean? And then maybe there would've been some more redemption to that. You know what I mean? But I lied to them in leaving, saying it was all the other reasons now that I'm leaving.

THERAPIST: What did you tell them? What did you end up telling them?

CLIENT: I told them that I was having issues with some of the management, which I was having issues with some of the management. Some of them I thought some of the managers there I felt like were extremely rude. They are extremely rude. They're very rude. A lot of the people that work there come from a lot of different circumstances. Many people who work there are getting employment kind of through rehabilitation programs and stuff. I think the management feel extremely entitled in the way that they talk to them. I feel like they I feel like a dynamic has sort of been generally established among the employees there and the management, which is very dictatorial and disrespectful.

THERAPIST: Is that right? [00:09:07.23]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. And it that was unfortunate. But that's not why I was leaving. You know what I mean? But I don't know. It feels a little, I don't know. I feel kind of weird saying this. But I feel almost kind of accomplished in that. That I feel like I accomplished something on some level that I'm if I don't think about certain aspects of it that I'm almost proud of myself.

THERAPIST: Yeah, what do [inaudible]

CLIENT: I mean I was willing to put off going to law school for a year just to stay at the Texas A&M just because I thought that that's what they wanted me to do. [00:10:09.13] You know what I mean? I really, really, really sat on that [inaudible]

THERAPIST: Is that right? You really...

CLIENT: Yeah, there was a period of time when I was like yeah, I mean I got in touch with the school and I requested I was asking them about how to possibly apply for to defer admission. Yeah, I would've done that, based upon the expectations I had in my head about what was going on in people's minds. You know what I mean? Looking back on it now, knowing that they reacted the way they did, I wouldn't make the same calculation. You know what I mean? But the fact that I was able to just think to myself I need to do I need something for myself for a certain period of time and I'm going to do whatever I have to do to make that work, and it's not and it's going to conflict with other people's interests and needs and stuff. You know what I mean? That was the whole theme, throughout the entire thing. You know what I mean? It was completely selfish what I did. I needed work for two and a half months. And I went in, I had them train me, and I got two month's work, and I gave my notice. You know what I mean? That's kind of an asshole thing to do on some level. You know what I mean? Right? It is, kind of. I don't know. But I don't feel bad about it. [00:12:06.04]

THERAPIST: No, I hear you. It definitely wasn't on the up and up and everything, and they thought one thing...

CLIENT: Yeah, almost like a necessary I was going to say necessary evil, the things people do because they're...

THERAPIST: Collateral damage or something, [inaudible]

THERAPIST: Well yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Right. Like that's a very coming out of those experiences, that seems like something surprising. Does that seem...

THERAPIST: No, I totally hear what you're saying. Yeah, it's kind of like...

CLIENT: I feel like you're not I feel like it's not resonating with you or something.

THERAPIST: Oh no, totally. I mean as far as well there's two things I'm thinking of. [00:13:07.18] One is that it absolutely feels very, very different. The fact that the way you feel like hey, you know what, I was in a jam, I was going to do something that I knew wasn't how I usually run my life ethically, but I've got to do it. I'm in a jam. And I'm going to be [inaudible] and I'm going to get and in some way a feeling of yeah, I can do that. I can do that. I can kind of sit with some moral level of moral ambiguity.

CLIENT: I don't even feel any moral ambiguity. I feel yeah, there's...

THERAPIST: Yeah, maybe it's not ambiguous.

CLIENT: But I'm totally removed from that. I'm not even [inaudible] there.

THERAPIST: But I guess moral ambiguity in the sense of your overall character. Like it didn't seem like you're sort of saying suddenly I'm this asshole guy who's doing is a sinner. [00:14:12.07] It's like I did a bad thing. I'm a guy that did this thing, a bad thing or something. That's the way I hear you sort of describing it as opposed to yeah, suddenly I've turned into a sociopath. Where I think in a way there was a very kind of unambiguous way of stuff with the student union stuff where you felt like if I'm doing something for myself I feel like I'm automatically collapsed in a category of selfishness, like there's some...

CLIENT: Yeah, no, I yeah, absolutely.

THERAPIST: Or the Crab Shack or whatever.

CLIENT: I was hurting people.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That's what I kept thinking of was [inaudible] But I don't really feel that. And it wasn't only a similar situation, it was the exact same situation. You know what I mean? [00:15:10.03]

THERAPIST: Yeah, but what were you picking up in me? What were you sort of noticing? I mean I have my thoughts about it but what were you...

CLIENT: About?

THERAPIST: You were sort of thinking it wasn't resonating with me.

CLIENT: Oh, I don't know, I felt like it just wasn't it didn't I don't know. I guess I wasn't seeing the reaction that I feel like indicates yeah, that is interesting. Yeah. You know what I mean? Thinking that maybe what I'm saying is overly obvious or not interesting or not...

THERAPIST: Yeah, no, no, no, that's not I hear what you're saying. No, it's very different. And very yeah, very significant, I'd say. Absolutely.

CLIENT: Significant? [00:16:11.16]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean it seems like or what a different position. I don't think you would've been doing something like that a year ago.

CLIENT: No. No, definitely not. No, I definitely wouldn't have done something like that a year ago.

THERAPIST: I was also thinking that I was thinking there's something about P.F. Chang's, maybe, to you, too, that was like, I don't know. I was sort of assuming, maybe, based upon also experience in restaurants, like it's a little bit easier to do something like that at a place like that. I don't know.

CLIENT: Oh, no, absolutely. Yeah. I mean there was yeah. Yeah, it would've been much easier to do something like that at P.F. Chang's as opposed to my job at the union and Texas A&M or something like absolutely, yeah. [00:17:18.19] But I feel like coming out of that, I can remember when I left that work with my dad I was so angry. I was so angry that I had been I was so angry about how naive I had felt I had been going into that with my dad that I was so angry with how it played out. I was so frustrated with myself that I went with where I then found myself in this money situation, where now I needed money but I couldn't do this with my dad. [00:18:18.15] I just felt like I had just fell asleep at the wheel and I had just found myself in this place that was just like God damn, this is the last place in the world that I want to be in. I don't feel secure money wise. I'm miserable doing this stuff with my dad. You know what I mean? I feel like everything is sort of working against me. You know what I mean? And I remember leaving that. I remember what I took away from it was obviously just damn, I just I did not think about how that how to make sure that I'm okay through this. You know what I mean? I felt like what the reason that I went wrong there is because I just did not think about what my interests were with my do I want to be spending time with my dad like that. How am I going to be getting the money that I need. And coming out of that I just felt like, I don't know. I just I felt like I had been kind of slighted in a way. And I just didn't and I don't know. I just didn't care.

THERAPIST: Yeah, what slighted...

CLIENT: I literally...

THERAPIST: Yeah, slighted.

CLIENT: Yeah, well I mean...

THERAPIST: About your dad.

CLIENT: Yeah, he didn't do the things that he said he was going to do. I feel like he wasn't trying to make it work. I felt like he was easily letting it just turn into just a really uncomfortable experience just by him only really considering the things that he thought were important to be important. [00:20:14.00] You know what I mean? And I felt yeah, I mean I felt like yeah, I felt slighted. I felt that my interests were just completely my needs were just totally snuffed off; they were just totally ignored. And I remember leaving and at that moment thinking to myself damn, if I don't think about what I need and getting it, it's not going to happen.

THERAPIST: Yeah, did it feel a little bit like an exploited worker kind of feeling, a worker that's been exploited?

CLIENT: Sort of, yeah. I mean in a way. I mean not in a way that I would traditionally think of an exploited worker being overworked, but I mean I was in a situation where I...

THERAPIST: Played, scammed.

CLIENT: Yeah, just ignored. [00:21:17.16] Yeah. Just not paying attention; you're not like the importance of [inaudible] money to me, how much me trying to find work to do with just not any calls back and stuff. I remember just leaving, just being like God, I need to be more aggressive about I need to be more critical, I need to be more selective.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and in some way I was thinking in some way self-interested.

CLIENT: Yeah. Because literally I remember even that thing that's what I I think that's why I felt so comfortable doing that. But I was so mad at the world, at my dad, at me. You know what I mean? [00:22:16.08] I think partially just with the realization that damn, this literally is not I'm literally not going to be able to make ends meet money wise unless I figure something out. You know what I mean? And I don't know. And it just put me in a place where, I don't know, just morality kind of just took a different what was right and what was wrong felt very different. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, that seemed like it was a response to not so much the world well maybe there was morality in there in terms of you could read it from a moral level, but I also hear you sort of feeling like it was really it pissed you off, that kind of you put your trust in your dad [inaudible] kind of come through on his end of the bargain and gave him a lot of slack, gave him some slack, any amount of slack would've been sufficient maybe. And then where you're getting kind of ignored and how he got funny with the money. And then feeling out of that like man, what was I thinking letting myself kind of put myself in that position. I've got to look out and some reaction to that, some real emotion, emotional impact that had on you. And then the response to be like I'm not going to do that. I've got to look out for me. And it's actually what you did with your dad, too. You were all like listen, I'm not going to work here. [00:24:05.10]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, even with that, too, yeah, that decision, and then the next decision I had to make to deal with that decision, taking a job knowing that taking a job [inaudible] premise on a lie, basically, lying during the job interview. You know what I mean? I remember they said we don't hire people just for seasonal work, so if you're just going to work for the summer we won't hire you. And I was just like no, I'm going to need work. Yeah, I don't know. I can't I guess I can't get over how different that feels [inaudible] feel comfortable doing that, and how much it seems to obviously even merit our [ph] certain types of behavior that I think for a while I thought would be things that I'd be very afraid of doing.[00:25:08.15] It sounds a lot even like some of the actions that my dad had probably taken, that I could've been very critical of.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I was thinking that too.

CLIENT: But that doesn't really seem to bother me at all. I don't really yeah, and I'm not thinking about my manager's feelings at all. It doesn't it's not keeping me up at all at night. I even like some of them as it's just as people, I think they're nice people. Particularly my general manager. I mean she's a nice person.

THERAPIST: Is she the one that hired you? [00:26:06.18]

CLIENT: Yeah. She's the one that I said that to in the interview. But...

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean just to say to your point about being a pretty significant change, wasn't it about a year ago that you were talking to me about the I forget what the job was. It was maybe at a pet store or something like that. The woman that was calling you. Some store.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, yeah, it was a shoe store.

THERAPIST: Shoe store, [inaudible].

CLIENT: Yeah, I walked by that store the other day and thought about that.

THERAPIST: And what was it, a woman that kept calling?

CLIENT: Yeah, it was the woman. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And how it felt terrible having to tell her you found something else.

CLIENT: Yeah, I hadn't even taken that job yet.

THERAPIST: Yeah, you hadn't taken it. You just expressed an interest. [00:27:03.08]

CLIENT: Yeah, she just offered me the job and I just had to decline it. It was like an incredibly difficult thing to do.

THERAPIST: Oh, is that what happened?

CLIENT: Yeah, she didn't even give me the job.

THERAPIST: You mean she just offered.

CLIENT: I had the interview and then she just offered it to me. And I then and I just and I ended up taking the job at Crab Shack's instead. [inaudible] called me that day. And just telling her that was like the I felt like I was putting a dagger in someone's heart or something. Yeah, I just found it interesting, though, feeling like coming out of that experience with my dad, feeling like my trust was betrayed, like I didn't feel like I felt very sharply that he wasn't paying attention to me, to the things I don't know. [00:28:12.02] That's what I mean by naive. I just it just flew in the face of just that. It makes everything okay. And he made everything more worse. You know what I mean? And it just seems interesting to me coming out of that I felt able to I felt literally able to do things that I felt like I couldn't do before.

THERAPIST: And also something to do with that interaction with your dad.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: What do you think? What (pause)

CLIENT: I don't know. [00:29:14.28] I mean I think coming out of it, I think the thing that was just most clear to me was that I he wasn't going to help me. He wasn't I couldn't just I don't know. I couldn't I feel like what I was just about to say was I can't unconditionally rely on him. But even just saying that it's like yeah, obviously not. But I feel like those are some of these ideas that managed to just stay sort of untouched from some of my other experiences. You know what I mean? I can say to you oh, my dad hurt my mom, hurt her feelings, bad for this family, all this stuff. But then between he and I, I have these ideas that just seem they didn't really sort of evolve with some of those other ideas. You know what I mean? That like leaving me. And that's what I mean when I said I felt naive. [00:30:41.22] Duh, obviously. You know what I mean? Those things seemed kind of [inaudible] a little bit. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, more like you a real kind of feeling and a kind of grasping that it was affecting you. He was doing this to you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It wasn't somebody else. It was which kind of broke from your sense of he's not he doesn't do this to me. Is that...

CLIENT: Yeah. That my dad might've done all this stuff. He's been an excellent dad, an incredible father. You know what I mean? Yeah, it was like I was saying, having all this to say about my dad but none of it being things that sort of transpired. You know what I mean? Something about that area just seemed very sort of immune to a lot of those other sort of critical insights and ideas. [00:31:50.12] And the fact that how shocked I was that things at work with him went my shock itself was evidence of how kind of removes my expectations and stuff. Or how surprised I was, bewildered. How easily I just sort of wandered into that. You know what I mean? And then, I don't know, then coming out of that I felt more alone. I felt more I don't know. I felt I don't know. I think it hurt. I don't know. I'm not saying it hurt me like [inaudible] it could be self-interest [inaudible] I don't know. In that moment literally just what I can remember feeling was who's going to pay attention to what I need right now. No one is. My dad's not. If this carries on I'm literally I'm not going to have enough money to do anything. [00:32:56.21] And that's the person who, in my mind, if that was happening at another job, I think I'd go to him. You know what I mean? Then it was happening there in a work environment with him. You know what I mean? And yeah, I don't know. It was just sort of like whoa. All right, we got to figure out what's going on here. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, no, I guess my sense is that you felt betrayed, and also on top of that feeling like what was I a sucker for even letting myself and then the resultant feeling being like why do I I mean I don't think there's a lot more that's a kind of upsetting feeling to have, upsetting thing to have, your dad not pay you and not be up front about it. I mean...

CLIENT: Yeah, and then to have people like Laney [ph] respond like you're having a bad experience. Does this surprise you. Comments like that. [00:34:17.02] Do you remember? Like why are you working with your dad. You know what I mean? Why are you...

THERAPIST: No, I remember her saying that.

CLIENT: Yeah. And it made that feel even it made me feel not only sort of betrayed but stupid at the same time kind of. You know what I mean? And yeah, (pause) Yeah, I don't know. Maybe that was helpful for me to go through that, to feel that, because to want to feel some kind of a betrayal from him, wanting to feel something like that so I could see it and then let maybe because I felt like I had been betrayed in some other ways or something it became sort of like an opening for me to be able to get in touch with that or something. But (pause) yeah, I don't know. [00:35:40.04]

THERAPIST: I mean if you look back, do you think there was a good chance your dad would've let you down, or has he always been...

CLIENT: What does it mean for my dad to let me down? I mean that that's what [inaudible] I don't know.

THERAPIST: Well I guess even unconsciously was there some kind of way that you would've felt yeah, I know my dad's not good with money, and here's one where...

CLIENT: No. My dad never would've let me even just that's like my dad was still this superman to me, right up to this. That's once I got rattled and I stepped back and I looked back, that's when I felt like I was still operating.

THERAPIST: He was always he was just kind of there was something about money with him and your mom, right. [00:36:29.26]

CLIENT: It was news to me prior to that conversation.

THERAPIST: You never knew all of that.

CLIENT: I had no idea. I thought my dad was flush with cash. I thought he was...

THERAPIST: Oh, okay. You didn't have any sense of that.

CLIENT: No, I knew nothing. That was 100% completely brand new news to me when my mom mentioned it. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, and just from that angle, there's some way in which it gets back to this sort of thing about your father, about him having to be superman to you. Not being able to kind of I was thinking, around the whole thing with the tickets even, I mean that had I bet a lot of money that it had something to do with him not being flush with cash, not having the money to do it.

CLIENT: That became very apparent to me, yeah.

THERAPIST: And all the wedding stuff, with your sister. And that thing with Marcus, the e-mails. [00:37:40.09] He couldn't kind of talk to you about hey he couldn't let himself go there with you that I don't have the money or I'm in a bind. He had to kind of preserve that image to you too.

CLIENT: Or yeah, or that I had an interest in preserving it or something.

THERAPIST: Oh, I think he does too.

CLIENT: That's funny, right, because in my mind when I think this, the conclusion that I then run to is wow, I really convinced myself that he was this way. You know what I mean? I ignored these things or something. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Well, yeah, I mean maybe there's that level there, and I'm sure there's an aspect of that but it wasn't like he was saying to you, I don't have the money and you were sort of saying, I'm going to ignore that. But he really does. I mean it was like he was kind of giving you the runaround or something.

CLIENT: Or just even me just historically. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: No, I see what you're saying. I think it was important to him too. [00:39:04.17]

CLIENT: It was probably important to my mom [inaudible] said well, she never mentioned any she never told me anything of what was transpiring between them. Clearly she didn't come right out and say it, just because she was concerned about my impression of my dad.

THERAPIST: Well listen to those divorce books. All they all say don't criticize your ex in front of your child. Don't do it. That's like number one 101 of dealing with divorce. And but there's different ways to go about that. I mean yeah, you don't want to feel like your son is or you're bringing your child into some way of having them on your side or something like that, or being witness to all the pain, and I think that's what those books are getting at. But a lot of people take it to be so much more, including some way that your father and your mother are these still good people who haven't really done anything wrong. [00:40:24.12] Not that they did something wrong but something about infallible kind of people.

CLIENT: Pretend...

THERAPIST: Protecting that persona, yeah.

CLIENT: The separation happened. Nothing seemed to have been a catalyst.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and once when I think the kid knows something's going on. When are they supposed to make sense of it all.

CLIENT: That's what I feel I live in when I get little bits of information like that it's like I don't even know where to put it. I just it's just my parents and then it's them you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, like a kind of a way I think these books kind of might recommend. Hey, we're all adults and we're going to be grown-ups here about it all, and we're not going to have we're going to make it like we don't have hard feelings. I think that has an impact on it sometimes [inaudible].

CLIENT: Yeah, if I read that I mean that's I think I said it to you a couple of times here, even. Like I think it was a real disservice to me on some level, that I wasn't told what was going on. You know what I mean? If people really are such horrible monsters you have to keep it from the kids, maybe [inaudible] kids have that information they can act upon it and not feel stupid when they find it out. You know what I mean? [00:42:05.04]

THERAPIST: Yeah. How do you make sense of the of a divorce, then, if everybody's so good and great and pure.

CLIENT: Yeah. Or just not being told the details of an experience that you're going through.

THERAPIST: Details of an experience [inaudible]

CLIENT: But yeah, I mean my dad's infallibility was I mean that's what in my mind it was just nothing. I mean I've only [inaudible] I have only good things to say about him, my father [inaudible] relationship. You know what I mean? I have unless I come somewhere like here and really try to pull at it, all I have is a really sort of glorious image of a relationship with him and stuff. Yeah, they got divorced but they did it so well. [00:43:10.11] You know what I mean? Still [inaudible] friends.

THERAPIST: When he's around your friends you sort of he shows a side, too, that of he must be a really great dad, always rubbing your back or...

CLIENT: Yeah, all this stuff.

THERAPIST: His arm around you.

CLIENT: It's a subservient it has a subservient I mean it's yeah, I don't know. It's a very pacifying, neutralizing type thing type of thing where...

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: I feel like I could never get angry with him. You know what I mean? How could I get angry with him. Everything he's great. [00:44:09.09] You know what I mean? It would be like getting angry at I mean he can only ever be selfish or something. You know what I mean? I don't know. It's very like this empowering, very...

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's like throwing water on a fire or something.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's I don't know. There was something something about it, it was impossible to it would be like trying to climb up a wall of ice. There was just nothing you could get, nothing you could grip onto. [inaudible] feel angry but then okay, let's talk about it. You know what I mean? Nothing up for discussion. There's nothing what are you angry about. You know what I mean? What could I have what was that? You know what I mean? I don't know, and then I just to bring it back to what I was talking about earlier, that's what I that whole just do what I'm told, just pacifying, neutralizing, just be quiet. [00:45:26.18] I don't know. Coming out of that experience with my dad and work, I don't know. I felt more I don't know. For a little while there I'm still [inaudible] I just felt like I could act in a way that just didn't purely have other people's interests and concerns. You know what I mean? I could actually be justified in what thinking to myself yeah, I'm going to do something for me. And I'm not going to think about someone else's feeling or something. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yes, I think that's right, that there's only...

CLIENT: I just that how powerful it felt coming out of that experience. [00:46:32.29] That was a bad experience with my dad. But it was a great experience in some ways. It was a great experience in that I felt so much more capable going in to that experience with P.F. Chang's. You know what I mean? And that's the weird paradox. You know what I mean? It's a crappy experience. I wouldn't want I don't want to have to experience anything like that again, but...

THERAPIST: Yes, that is a paradox because you had to see something real about your father that's kind of painful and disappointing.

CLIENT: Yeah, I had to fight with him. I had to...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And we're not making too much out of it but I genuinely feel like coming out of that I was...

THERAPIST: There's a long history of, I think, of men and their fathers, having to break from it, see something different about that, see a side you don't really yeah, identifications with them but also ways you don't want to be identifying. Take the and the what I guess the psychoanalysts call it deidealizations. And how important that is. You were talking about superman [inaudible]

CLIENT: Yeah, some of this other [inaudible] superman. [00:48:18.25] Yeah, in a good way.

THERAPIST: In a good way, yeah. Well in some ways it meant somehow it meant it translated to you feeling like well, there's somehow there's room for you to have self-interest, some way, and it made it sound like well there's room for that. My dad does it. As much as it stings in some way it means that he's human like me.

CLIENT: Yeah, the deidealization, I mean that captures it. I mean that's what it was. I mean it was a very idealized mythical kind of image that yeah, it was inaccurate. It was inaccurate to what I even felt. You know what I mean? What I think on some levels I believed to be true.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and if your father's a superhero, that's a hell of a lot of pressure on the son. [00:49:30.20] That's a hell of a lot of pressure. I mean even if there might be not to other people. If they are to you that's a hell of a lot of pressure.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) It's something about that [inaudible] Mark Twain's quote, growing up I never got along with my dad and then I went away for 15 years or then when I was 15 I went away and came back when I was 25 and I was amazed at how much my dad matured in ten years. Something like that. I don't know.

THERAPIST: There is a lot there, and the P.F. Chang's I mean the yeah, P.F. Chang's.

CLIENT: Keep going with it. [00:50:39.27] I know I'm running out of time. I don't want to take up a whole Thursday [inaudible]

THERAPIST: See you on Thursday.

CLIENT: Yeah, so no Monday.

THERAPIST: No Monday, right.

CLIENT: No Monday. Then Thursday. A light month.

THERAPIST: A light month indeed.

CLIENT: All right, thank you.

THERAPIST: See you Dan. [ph]

CLIENT: See you.

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