TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: How are you?

THERAPIST: I'm good. (inaudible at 0:00:04). (Pause) Okay. (Pause) Geoffrey (ph), hi.

CLIENT: Crazy couple of weeks there. My last day at Texas A&M (ph). I just had my last shift, yeah. So I signed off there, which was sad.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: Yeah, it was sad to do.

THERAPIST: How long have you been working there?

CLIENT: Just about a year now. It was August 1st when I started it last, so just about a calendar year. It was good leaving. I mean, everyone was really fantastic about it. My guy that I work with, Mitchell, he was really good about it. But yeah, it was sad, it was really sad to leave. [0:00:55] I really didn't want to. I really like working with him. I like the friendship that we had and everything. And... yeah, I was a little sad leaving. (Pause) It was a little surreal, thinking about it. Yeah, and I'll be leaving my other job in two days. Then I'll be off on Monday. And then I'll be back, I'll get right into school. It just seems kind of wild at this point, just the... all the stuff I've been planning for for so long, thinking about it actually happening now.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's nuts. It's cool, it's really happening.

CLIENT: Yeah. It'll be good. It'll be good. Most of it I'm excited for. I mean, I think one of the only things about this year that I'll be sad about leaving will be the job at the Texas A&M. [0:02:00] It's the only thing that I'll miss on any level. (Pause) Yeah, it was really sad leaving. I almost felt... I was choking up almost, like I was going to start crying or something almost. It was bizarre.

THERAPIST: What strikes you as bizarre about it?

CLIENT: I don't know. I wasn't expecting to be that... I wasn't expecting to be that (pause) moved by leaving, you know what I mean? It caught me by surprise. It caught me by surprise. (Pause) I mean, I guess I feel like that was a... (Pause) I don't know if I talked about it a lot here, but it was a really... (Pause) It was a really unique environment for me, in that it was just really pleasant. [0:02:59] It was very...

THERAPIST: Yeah, I don't know much about the gig or Mitchell.

CLIENT: No, the work that I did there, it was a lot of kind of paper pushing stuff, a lot of invoices, it was just clerical work. But the guy that I worked with was a really nice guy.

THERAPIST: Mitchell.

CLIENT: Really nice guy, yeah. He took really good care of me. They were very good employers, very understanding. And I came to really care about the work, and I felt like I was contributing to this organization's union that I cared about, that I respected. And I felt like I was doing well. I felt like I was a positive contribution. I didn't have this sort of nagging (pause) self-hatred that accompanied school for so long, where it just... everything just made me feel like I was horrible or something, like I was... just the task being constantly just to try to get over that, you know what I mean? [0:04:04] It was a very different environment in that sense. I had a really great relationship with Mitchell. I was just very good friends with him, you know what I mean? (Pause) But yeah, it was just unique in that sense. It just felt good. It was just a good place. Even it (sp?) had all this kind of... this stuff mixed up with it, you know what I mean? It was really hard to work (inaudible at 0:04:33) at times and stuff. School, I loved it, but, I mean, obviously it drove me crazy in a lot of ways, and...

THERAPIST: Yeah, and all the Kaley (sp?) stuff.

CLIENT: Yeah, this Kaley was really emotionally turbulent at times and stuff. But this was just a year of just a really great experience.

THERAPIST: Yeah, kind of almost on... well, very clearly positive. [0:05:03] No... (chuckling) it didn't have a lot of negatives.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) I mean, I guess the only negatives would have been my freaking out for so long about having to tell them I was leaving, which proved totally unwarranted, you know what I mean? So there was that, but...

THERAPIST: Unequivocally positive.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, in a way that (pause) I really had never experienced with something I was involved in, you know what I mean? And (pause) yeah, it just made me wonder why I was leaving it when I was leaving today. I was just like, I'm going to be leaving. I'm going to go on to school. It's going to be a shit storm again probably, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: And just leaving, I just... I don't know, I was just kind of like, oh God. [0:05:58] Maybe this isn't the right thing to do or something. Literally second guessing it.

THERAPIST: Yeah, you know what it makes me think of is, it's good to have that in your back pocket to know what a good work environment feels like. You don't forget it.

CLIENT: I suppose. That's not what I was taking away from it so much.

THERAPIST: Because it can make a big difference what kind of place you work at and how the work feels. It depends a lot, I think, so much on the environment in which you work. It's so huge, who you're working for, with, how the office feels. It's so critical.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, I've always believed that. Work, yeah, that's your contribution to the world. That could really make or break...

THERAPIST: And I'll say this, that I think having a good experience, you can kind of go, this is what it's... that it's not unreasonable to try to find a place that feels like that again, as opposed to, if you're used to getting a lot of cruddy treatment, you can make yourself kind of go through all these... [0:07:14]

CLIENT: Yeah, you know what you can expect. You know what you can demand of the world.

THERAPIST: Yeah, exactly.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, that's true. I guess maybe what I thought from it was... I mean, in a way, that was such an enjoyable experience for me, that it was kind of beyond what I suppose I even suspected was possible. There's nothing bad about it. It was just... the only thing bad about it was that I couldn't get more of it. I couldn't do it full time. I mean, that was the only thing bad about it. But... (Pause) [0:08:00] What I... I don't know, I guess what... (Pause) It makes... yeah, I guess the way that... I totally see what you're saying. But all I can think about is, God, must be something really masochistic or something about me going back to school...

THERAPIST: Oh, really? Oh.

CLIENT: Because it's... in a way that experience was what I... the idea that life could be like that is a liberatory (sp?) fantasy, that I could live the rest of my life in a job like that and feel good and not feel like crap all the time, and not feel this dynamic that I felt for so long in school, which was so kind of suffocating and...

THERAPIST: Interesting. (Crosstalk) [0:08:58]

CLIENT: I don't know. Yeah, so part of me was like, why am I leaving that?

THERAPIST: Why would I leave? That's interesting.

CLIENT: So in a sense it's like (pause) yeah, sure. Knowing that there's type of experience is great, because it lets you sort of demand more of things. On the other hand what I'm thinking of is, knowing that now is going to make me feel even weirder about (pause) more difficult experiences that I willfully bring myself into. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Why would I leave that?

CLIENT: Yeah. That was my area. I don't know. It was untouched by the rest of my life, you know what I mean? It was something I sought out, and I found, and I made it. It was me, and it was nothing... you know what I mean? I don't know.

THERAPIST: (Chuckling) Well, that seems to be pretty significant, too. How do you mean? Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't know. School is deeply wound up with my parents' expectations and stuff. [0:10:01] And just that report card dynamic. You've got to bring your report card home to show your parents, you know what I mean? It's... I don't know. There wasn't... there was a sense of ownership over the gig at Texas A&M that I did, that I don't feel with school or anything.

THERAPIST: Like literally and figuratively you're not being graded.

CLIENT: Or just more so like this... (Pause) It was my own. It was an autonomous space. I mean, yeah, I'm not being graded in a way. I don't answer to anyone else besides my own... they're never going to go and talk to my parents or something. My parents have never met them. No one there's going to meet my parents. It was a little corner of...

THERAPIST: Your own thing. [0:10:56]

CLIENT: Yeah, it was just totally my own, you know what I mean? And it was nice. And (pause) yeah, I guess as I was leaving it I just sort of was thinking to myself, God, why leave that? Maybe that... maybe it wasn't inevitable that I would have to (pause) stop doing something like that. I don't know. It just made me wonder, why go back to school? (Pause) The whole time I was at Texas A&M I was just thinking about what am I going to do afterwards, you know what I mean (pause), and just imposing these...

THERAPIST: Do you kind of expect school to feel... go back to feeling that, what are my grades and that kind of thing? Is that...? How do you feel about...?

CLIENT: Yeah, on some level I... I think I'm going to have a different relationship with school when I go back (pause), I think. [0:11:58] I think I learned a lot about myself and the way that I dealt with schools through examining my experience here and reflecting on it. So think there are certain things I'll be able to definitely change and (pause) separate a little bit. I don't know that I would want... well, I don't know. I'd imagine I'd like to stay a little bit more distant from some of my professors (chuckling). It felt like being as close with Kaley as I was made it fantastically difficult to study under her, because I became wrapped up in so much more stuff. But that's a different conversation.

The point being, I feel like I'm going to be able to approach school in a very different way. But I feel like there's something inherent about that dynamic, the (pause) sort of classroom environment that sort of infantilizing or... there's a power dynamic there, you know what I mean, where you're kind of doing what you're told, and you're chasing after a mark or something, that I suspect is going to revisit certain types of feelings and stuff. [0:13:19] I mean, it's school. It's going to be stressful, you know what I mean? I'm probably going to freak out a lot. I'm probably going to (pause) get overwhelmed a lot (pause), have bad days and stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah, there's going to be that kind of pressure on it where it wasn't at this gig.

CLIENT: I suppose. (Pause) Yeah, I don't even know. I don't even know where I'm going with all of it. I guess I just... (Pause) I didn't want to leave when I was leaving today. I wanted to stay. [0:14:02] I feel like I found a place where I felt good, you know what I mean, where I had sort of... from day one already had access to the type of encouragement and acceptance that I felt like I could never get in school, you know what I mean? And it just struck me as odd when I was leaving that I just so quickly (pause) hopped out of it to go right back into school. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, but that's how you're kind of coming at the... at going back to school, too, huh? I mean, what are your...?

CLIENT: Sort of. I mean, this doesn't have anything [to do] (ph) about school so much. I mean, that really just came up as I was leaving Texas A&M. I guess those are impressions I have more of my leaving Texas A&M and going back to school. [0:14:57] I mean, I'm kind of excited to go back to school in certain ways. I mean, I'm familiar with it. I'm comfortable with it. You know what I mean? I know that environment, that schedule, that lifestyle. I can do that, you know what I mean? I feel like I can just slip right back into it after a year off without missing a beat. But... (Pause) So when I think about going back to school I don't think about this stuff so much. What I think about over the last hour, leaving the Texas A&M, I think about this stuff, you know what I mean? (Pause) Yeah, I don't know.

THERAPIST: What, what? (Pause)

CLIENT: There are people that really liked me, you know what I mean? I felt really comfortable, I felt really accepted there. I felt valuable. I felt empowered, I felt like I was a valuable contribution. [0:16:02] People would ask me questions. Mitchell seeked out my advice on things and stuff. (Pause) I don't know. It was different, you know what I mean? (Pause) And I felt bad that I was leaving Mitchell. I felt like I was abandoning him. (Pause) That's what I felt. I felt like I was... I had a choice to stay and did not stay. And I felt like I chose not Mitchell. (Pause) I felt like I was giving something even indirectly not good to him. [0:17:02] [I was abandoning] 9ph) his kindness or something.

THERAPIST: (Crosstalk) (Pause) Yeah, like what? Like it's a place that treated you very well, and you're kind of leaving them behind, dumping on them?

CLIENT: Yeah. Exactly how I feel. They would have kept me, I could have stayed there with them. They would have continued to be great. But I just cut it off.

THERAPIST: No, I hear you. Yeah. [0:17:58]

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know. I guess I'm someone who I feel like sometimes... I don't feel like I complain a lot, but I'm someone who lends some credence to the fact that I'm an anxious person, or I'm a person who has a hard time in certain environments with certain people, with my dad, with (pause) teachers, talking about how I want to feel better and stuff. And then I had this place where I felt great. I felt fantastic. I felt better than I ever felt, you know what I mean? And then I left it. It makes me feel self-conscious, you know what I mean? Does that make sense to you?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean, I hear what you're describing absolutely.

CLIENT: It makes me feel like... (Pause) Yeah. [0:18:56]

THERAPIST: What? (Pause)

CLIENT: I don't know, fake or phony or something, or... (Pause) I don't know. (Crosstalk)

THERAPIST: Yeah, fake and phony in what way? Yeah. (Pause)

CLIENT: I mean, that I could have stayed there. I could have felt really good, you know what I mean? Now I'm going to go back to school. I'm going to maybe come here and be upset and be stressed out about some of the stuff we used to talk about, Kaley and stuff. Yeah, I don't know. I guess in the back of my mind it's going to be like, well, you had a really great thing, you know what I mean? You didn't have to go back to school. [0:19:57] You had a great job. (Pause) What are you complaining about? You set this up for yourself. You went after this. Really no one even encouraged you to apply to school. You just kind of did it on your own. (Pause) I don't know. Does that make any sense to you?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Which...? (Chuckling) What are you noticing about me (ph)?

CLIENT: I don't know. I guess I don't even really know what I'm reacting to.

THERAPIST: No, it's good though. I mean, you're getting into something about this that... I mean, I hear the part where you feel like, what am I doing leaving... looking a gift horse in the mouth? (Pause) [0:20:59] And some... this level of (pause), yeah, abandoning and phony and fake is really... it seems pretty important that it's coming out of this, too. (Pause) I mean, because yeah, obviously on one level of it, you look at it from bird's eye view, it's like, well, of course, you need to keep moving on professionally and career-wise. And of course it makes sense. But then there's something...

CLIENT: Yeah, I can see that, too, but...

THERAPIST: Yeah, but you're getting at the subjective kind of experience of it, which is obviously what we're here to talk about (laughing). And just one thing that strikes me about it is that (pause) this doesn't... I don't know how this relates to that kind of abandoning feeling you have, but I was just thinking about how you do feel like, God damn, it's been a place where you haven't had all the angst and all the anxieties and all the kind of worries that can accompany work or whatever, or being... it was a place where they really... and how much that means to you to have a place like that, where none of that stuff enters into the equation (pause), and what it would mean then to give it up, to lose that, to have that lost. But I hear it in some way, too, like you feel like you're letting them down. [0:22:56] It kind of comes... there's this other element of you feeling like... I mean, it's not just about you losing, which has some importance to you and significance in just that way I just mentioned. But there's also this level of you sort of saying, yeah, I feel guilty about it, or I feel phony or this other line of (pause) meaning it has to you.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) I don't know. I put... I justify a lot of things that I do based upon this self-perception I have of myself as an anxious person, as a person who has things to work out or something. It's why I come here. It's why I smoke. It's why I feel... in the last analysis in my head that's what it falls on, you know what I mean? [0:24:00] That's why. That's why (pause) I feel unhappy about things. And that's why I feel like there's unresolved things with my family and stuff, and it's going to stay that way or something. Just that idea that there's things that I'm... that make me unhappy or something. I lean against it a lot to sort of just (pause) make sense of things, why I smoke, why I (inaudible at 0:24:36) with my dad, why I feel like I'm going to have a strange relationship with my family in Maine for my whole life or something, you know what I mean, because I feel like it's impossible for me to feel good and comfortable (pause) and sort these things out. [0:25:00] I don't know. (Pause) Just to be really honest in my head, what I was thinking today was (pause), maybe it's possible for you to feel better about some of that stuff than you convince yourself at times. Maybe you're not...

THERAPIST: Huh!

CLIENT: That miserable. Maybe things don't have to be that miserable, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: That's...

CLIENT: Maybe if they are maybe you can take some responsibility for it. Maybe it's not... I don't know about that so much. But it complicated this sort of unchallenged kind of notion, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Is it kind of like, don't... if I'm leaving this place, I can't go around complaining about this other stuff? [0:26:00]

CLIENT: Precisely. Yeah, kind of. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And even me, you might feel like... if you're coming to me to talk about it, you might feel like, well, come on, Geoffrey. I mean, you asked for it, going back to school.

CLIENT: I mean, I don't think you would say that. But I would want to... I feel compelled to want to at least acknowledge that insight, that I'm aware at least of that kind of, yeah, insight. You know what I mean? I guess.

THERAPIST: Yes. (Pause)

CLIENT: Because leaving it I felt really sad because I think, in a lot of ways, I'll miss that place and stuff. And I feel like I was (pause) maybe letting people down and stuff. [0:26:57] But I don't know, I think, if you want to use those kind of words like this, I felt a little bit better there than I usually do in a lot of other environments. And I'll miss that. I worked a lot this year. Typically I was working six, seven days a week. I looked forward to going to the office. I loved it. I mean, I hopped out of bed in the morning to go to the office, and... yeah, I liked it.

THERAPIST: Is that right? How many hours would you put in a week?

CLIENT: I'd put in 15 hours a week. That's what I'd get paid for. But I'd work more some weeks and less other weeks and stuff. It was a very flexible schedule. I mean, literally, I... it was like my day off. I loved it. (Pause) Anyway... (Pause) Yeah, I don't know. (Pause)

THERAPIST: What's that, I don't know? [0:28:00]

CLIENT: I don't know, I feel like I'm being melodramatic or something about leaving the job.

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: No, it strikes me as... it has a good deal of significance. To find a place where you felt, God damn, you can feel comfortable in your own skin. That's pretty major. That's no small thing at all. [I mean] (ph), to the extent it's like, well (pause), so important that you even think, wow, is it really good for me to go to school (chuckling)? It's almost like it's that important (crosstalk).

CLIENT: Yeah, well, I don't know. It makes me wonder. It makes me wonder why I'm even going to school, you know what I mean? [0:28:55] It calls that kind of stuff into question, you know what I mean, to question why I'm leaving it, why I'm doing the things that I'm leaving Texas A&M to do and stuff.

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: I don't know. It's just riddled with uncertainty and second-guessing and stuff. It makes me want to back pedal and... I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it reminds me... it does seem... it's got that kind of feel of (pause), taking on... feeling very comfortable with a certain... you pick a metaphor, like climbing a mountain. I'm used to this mountain (chuckling). I'm used to climbing this hill. I like this hill. I like this climb. Now I'm going to go up a little bit higher or do something that's a little bit more beyond my... why ever leave what's tried and true and good? [0:30:03] (Pause) Yeah, what am I, crazy, to be leaving? Why would I even try to expand, do something beyond that, when I know it's going to be filled with anxiety and (chuckling)... I don't know. It has that kind of feel.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think there's just a lot of moving parts right now, too. You know what I mean? There's a lot of stuff up in the air. (Pause) I mean, everything. I'm leaving these jobs, starting to school, going on this trip, seeing family. There's a lot of moving parts. There's a lot of shifting of the ground beneath me so to speak. [0:30:58] And I guess it's... it was a very comfortable place that (pause) is particularly (pause) nice to think about, particularly the way as things are kind of moving as much as they are now, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. (Pause) Yeah, school, though. What do you...? What have been your feelings about that?

CLIENT: I mean, it's fine. It's just, it's going back to school. It's what I've always done every year.

THERAPIST: Just go back into the...

CLIENT: Since I went to kindergarten every year I went back to school. And it's just sort of slipping right back into that, September. Granted that last September I didn't go back to school, but I'm still... it's still the case that I more expect to go back to school come September than I don't.

THERAPIST: What comes with coming back, going back to school? [0:31:59] (Pause)

CLIENT: It's just what you do. I don't know, it just feels very... I don't know. It just feels very... (Pause) It's natural. It's routine. (Pause) I'm... when I don't look at Texas A&M and I just look at school coming up, I look forward to it. I definitely look forward to it.

THERAPIST: No, I see what you're getting at.

CLIENT: I mean, all that stuff that I just shared with you came up in the last hour and a half. I left at 4:00. I'm super sad. I was really sad. I had to give my keys and stuff, and all this ceremonial concluding shit I just didn't want to do, you know what I mean? [0:32:59] And there's just... I don't know. I just didn't want to do it. And it was making me really sad, and it was frustrating me and stuff. You know what I mean? So I'm probably wrapping up a lot of that still.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: But (pause) I'm excited to go back to school. I think I'm going to enjoy it. (Pause) I know why I'm going back to school. I'm going back to school because I think I would really enjoy (pause) practicing as a career. There's a whole host of things I think I would really enjoy doing. I'm not feeling like, oh my God, I'm regretting going to school or anything. But... (Pause) [0:34:00] Yeah, I don't know. Just second guessing myself.

THERAPIST: No, I hear it. It comes... as you were trying to articulate it, it comes out more leaving this place as to something separately (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah, no, I mean, that's completely it. It's the act of leaving that's... that feels difficult for me, you know what I mean? That I effected it. It was my decision. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Ah! Yeah.

CLIENT: Graduating (ph) school was a decision made for me, you know what I mean? There's a lot of that stuff. I don't know if I did it right.

THERAPIST: No, that's right. It's different from school in that regard, too. It's like, I'm choosing to stay or go, and...

CLIENT: Yeah, completely. I don't know why I was... (Pause) I felt like I just did... I felt like, just by thinking about it, I was planning my escape in October, a month, is when I started applying to school. [0:35:04] A month after I started I was already planning my steps up. You know what I mean? (Pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, no, I can see it from that angle. In a way it feels like there's a lot of agency here in what you're doing. Like, I've decided to leave this thing. And it had good things, and I'm leaving it. And it's me that's choosing to do so. It's not because I'm graduating, and they're kicking me out (chuckling). It's like, I'm choosing to stop. And that has consequences.

CLIENT: Yeah, or... yeah, it makes me think about... (Pause) Yeah. But it's more culpability on myself for the impacts of it. [0:35:59] Yeah. (Pause) I don't know. I feel silly. I feel like I'm grappling with the basic idea, if you start something, it's going to end. You know what I mean? But...

THERAPIST: What's simple about that? That's very... (laughing) I mean, there's something about how...

CLIENT: Well, yeah. It's not... it shouldn't be too scandalizing to someone at this point in their lives, you hope. Right?

THERAPIST: I think actually it makes a lot... I mean, if you have a job like that where you feel really connected with the people that work there and you did that kind... you felt good about the work you were doing, and you found an environment that means a lot to you, it's... sadness, it seems like the natural response. [0:36:59]

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) It's funny though, because particularly in comparison with my experience at P.F. Chang's ...

THERAPIST: Yeah, I was thinking that.

CLIENT: Which is funny, because it's very polar opposite, almost for the same reasons of agency and whatnot. I'm happy. It's the same things that make me feel concerned [when I'm thinking about with Texas A&M], or make me feel proud and happy at P.F. Chang's. [It would be] (ph) this very kind of (pause), I don't know, self-interested grab for what I needed and disregard other people and stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's the flip of the scenario there. [0:38:00] (Pause)

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) Yeah, I guess it's just the end of a long year, too, in a way. End of a lot of different stuff, or end of a lot of not stuff, I guess. (Pause) But it makes me feel anxious a little bit.

THERAPIST: The year feel?

CLIENT: This transition, yeah, this (pause) movement into a new set of circumstances and everything. [0:39:03] This transition period has been... it's been unsettling. I was thinking about when I was coming here even, that (pause) it feels different coming here in drips and drabs like this than it does when I'm consistently here week in and week out. Even coming here, a place where I feel really comfortable and stuff, I can feel it, the weight of it, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, what do you notice about coming here? You feel the...? How does it feel different (pause), when you come in less regularly?

CLIENT: I feel out of shape. I feel like I haven't been to the gym for months or something, and I'm back. I feel out of... feel unprepared, feel... chipping away at the surface again or something. [0:39:58] You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, is it kind of like... again like your work's not good enough in some way or...?

CLIENT: Sort of.

THERAPIST: In contrast to the feeling with Mitchell maybe? (Pause)

CLIENT: (Chuckling) Yeah, in a way. Yeah, in a sense, yeah, I think so. Yeah. There's... yeah. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Because I'm struck too by you kind of... with you noting what... is this... this seems simple. I feel like this should be no surprise to me, and as if you were saying something that didn't have enough weight to it or something like that.

CLIENT: Yeah, no, that's definitely sort of how I feel throughout this conversation, like (pause) I'm trying to pull some unfound meaning out of a kind of trivial experience or something. [0:41:10]

THERAPIST: Yeah, is any of it coming from me, anything from me that you're noticing? (Pause)

CLIENT: I don't know. (Pause) I don't know, nothing comes to mind. (Pause)

THERAPIST: The way that I'm communicating, you should be talking about something else or something (pause) deeper or something? (Pause)

CLIENT: I don't know. Nothing comes to mind too much. [0:41:58] Nothing's really sticking out as I think about that. You know when you get sad sometimes, and you feel kind of... you just feel sort of... your thoughts are just kind of tight?

THERAPIST: Tight?

CLIENT: Like rigid, you know what I mean? When you're about to start crying, your throat kind of tightens up, and you're kind of, okay, trying to keep things out, trying not to exacerbate it, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I know what you're talking about.

CLIENT: I just kind of feel stuck in there, you know what I mean? I feel like (pause), yeah, kept in abeyance or something. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, your feelings about Mitchell.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think so. [0:42:57] Yeah. (Pause) I didn't really even want to come after I left. I kind of wanted to go home.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and do what?

CLIENT: Lay in bed. Not talk to people (chuckling). You know what I mean? I remember thinking to myself as I was walking... because when I was leaving Texas A&M I felt really choked up for a minute. There was a couple moments where I genuinely thought I was going to shed a tear or something. And I remembered thinking to myself (pause), that would be weird to come here feeling like that. It reminded me of a conversation a while ago where we kind of said... when I was reflecting on Eric and his experience, after being with his therapist for a month or two, he said he had a session where he started crying everywhere and stuff. [0:43:58] And I thought to myself, oh man, I really never felt close to that here. In a way, this isn't a problem to me, it just strikes me as interesting. It's just... well, it's just not my experience.

THERAPIST: Eric?

CLIENT: But I remember when I was feeling that I was kind of like, I feel like I should go home or something. I feel I just want to be alone.

THERAPIST: Maybe that's part of the deeper experience you feel is missing sometimes, some sort of... I mean, I'm struck by the... yeah, the kind of sense that there is some feeling coming up, emergent feeling of leaving that you try to kind of... you felt like, I want to keep this a little bit at bay. I just want to go home.

CLIENT: Yeah, and if I feel... (chuckling) if you (ph) feel like our conversation right now is superficial, it's... I feel like the first place my mind is going to go is the fact that I know I don't even want to be talking about this. [0:45:08] So it likely has a lot to do with me making this a superficial conversation, you know what I mean? That's more so than, I think this is really interesting that you're just not... (inaudible at 0:45:24), you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: That's it, that's right. Yeah, I see. (Pause) In some way there's more here that you know has potential (chuckling)...

CLIENT: That's the suspicion, yeah.

THERAPIST: I think... well, I think that's right. There's something about you leaving and the relationship with Mitchell that carries with it some emotional weight. I mean, one thing that maybe is a little bit obvious is the difference between the work relationship you had with Mitchell and the one you had with your dad. [0:46:00] (Pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know, it didn't even cross my mind but is interesting. They were happening at the same time. (Pause) It's really funny, too. I thought about maybe mentioning this earlier, but I thought it would have sounded corny. But Mitchell told me last week that he... he's about 39, 38. He just found out, in his words, that he's going to be a dad. And I remember thinking about it all day, I don't know, the way that I don't usually... people talking about the royal family having a kid, you know what I mean? I don't know, I was really interested and thinking about it and stuff, and... yeah.

THERAPIST: What were you thinking about?

CLIENT: That he was going to be a really good dad. [0:47:03] I almost wanted to tell him that, but I thought it would sound patronizing.

THERAPIST: Oh man, yeah. God, you're probably right (chuckling).

CLIENT: I mean, about him being a good dad. [There's no doubt about that] (ph) (laughing).

THERAPIST: Yeah, no, I mean, I...

CLIENT: But yeah.

THERAPIST: It's about the best thing you can say to somebody expecting to be a father for the first time (laughing).

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess. (Pause) I suppose. (Pause) Yeah, so I thought about that kind of stuff a little bit over the last couple of days.

THERAPIST: [How about that] (ph).

CLIENT: He'd be an amazing dad. There's probably something wrapped up in all that, too. [But I have no idea] (ph).

THERAPIST: That's right. [0:47:57]

CLIENT: Yeah, even more so thinking about that... the idea of him being my boss and supervisor and parallel plane at the same time as my dad... looking at those experiences next to each other.

THERAPIST: Yeah, well, and I think too of, I guess, this trip coming up, and (pause) there's a lot of questions about what kind of father your father was, I'm thinking, kind of implicit in this trip, in this wedding.

CLIENT: Yeah, there'll be a big [fall in] (ph) on that to say the least.

THERAPIST: Ah, yeah, I imagine so.

CLIENT: The curtain's pulled back.

THERAPIST: I imagine so. I'm sure it's in everybody's head in some form or fashion.

CLIENT: It'll be a big window for Laney even, [into it] (ph), be front and center.

THERAPIST: His daughter whom he had (pause) a very mixed relationship with. [0:49:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, he does have a pretty mixed relationship with. Yeah. Lots of stuff moving around as I was saying (laughing). (Pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, what a... God, what a... I'm just (inaudible at 0:49:23) what a strikingly different, contrasting kind of image of a father he was to your sister and to you. (Pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean (pause), maybe the same thing only in the name. (Pause) Father. (Pause) It certainly doesn't seem that in any other sense. [0:49:57] (Pause)

THERAPIST: So when are you headed...? When are you leaving?

CLIENT: Monday. It'll be Monday, early Monday.

THERAPIST: Early Monday.

CLIENT: Yeah. Get in...

THERAPIST: You fly into France or Manchester?

CLIENT: Fly to France first. Do about a week... we'll fly to Leon, we'll do a layover, and connect to France. And (pause) yeah, do about a week in France, which'll be a blast.

THERAPIST: See your buddy.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's just going to be a blast. Then we'll do a couple days down in Edinburgh for the wedding, and... yeah. It'll be the minority of the time of the trip, which is interesting. But it'll be good. (Crosstalk)

THERAPIST: Yeah, I'm looking forward to hearing how it goes.

CLIENT: Yeah, I look forward to talking to you about it.

THERAPIST: There'll be a lot to talk about.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 0:50:50) for sure, for sure.

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: And hey, that (ph) Monday.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [0:50:57] (Pause) Yeah.

CLIENT: I'm going to be getting back the Sunday before that. What does that Monday look like for you right now?

THERAPIST: I don't know, (crosstalk).

CLIENT: Do you think there's any possibility for maybe something a little bit later than 10:00 maybe? I'm just thinking I'm going to be knackered. (Pause)

THERAPIST: A little bit later than... let's... hold on a second, let me see.

CLIENT: If you've got a possibility for something later, I can probably try to snag that from you. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Why don't we...? That's the 12th then.

CLIENT: Correct. (Pause)

THERAPIST: I think actually 3:00... no, I'm sorry, 3:15 would work.

CLIENT: If possible, yeah, I would try to scoop that up.

THERAPIST: Alright, want to do that? [0:51:57]

CLIENT: Even just for that Monday.

THERAPIST: Alright, I think that's fine. (Pause)

CLIENT: You can look into it. There's time, you know what I mean? (Pause)

THERAPIST: Well, why don't we say that? If there's a problem, I'll get back to you.

CLIENT: Yeah, okay. Cool, let me write that down. Have you got a pen on you?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 0:52:22) (Pause) That's the 12th.

THERAPIST: Yeah, 3:15...

CLIENT: I'll shoot you an e-mail at some point, just to confirm. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, okay, that'd be great if you would.

CLIENT: 3:15?

END TRANSCRIPT