TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Waiting to see if maybe that worked with you at all.

THERAPIST: Yeah I do have a 9:30.

CLIENT: In the morning?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Talking the 22nd then?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That would not work.

THERAPIST: That work not work. Okay.

CLIENT: It would have to be in the evening. I’m out of class at 12:45. So that would be 1:30 at the earliest.

THERAPIST: Okay. Let’s see.

CLIENT: But if not. If nothing works that week it wouldn’t be the worst thing.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It’s a busy week for me as it is.

THERAPIST: Yeah I’ll let you know if something changes but I don’t have anything else right now. You want to handle it that way?

CLIENT: Yeah that’s fine. If something opens up (inaudible). [0:01:00]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It’ll be a busy week for me as it is. So.

THERAPIST: Got it. Be too bad. Yeah. (Pause at 0:01:07 until 0:01:27)

CLIENT: I’m trying to think. What were we talking about last week? I feel like I kind of remember – what I kind of concluded upon I thought was an interesting idea.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I remember thinking about it a couple of times since I left. And I guess kind of thinking that maybe it was – it seemed to be a little more meaningful or something than I think I really recognized maybe. [0:02:04]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: When I was saying it. I think – I’m not telling if you recall this. I think it was (inaudible at 0:02:14) – most of the time I think we were just kind of talking about things that seemed kind of redundant to me or something. I think I even said I felt like I was repeating myself or something. I think what I kind of left with was I kind of summed it up as I have a desire or a wish I guess to be able to kind of live my life in a way that allowed me to kind of enjoy a lot of really fantastic things that I have in my life but that for whatever reason I end up kind of coming to resent. [0:03:11]

Or these fantastic things end up just becoming sources of even greater anxiety and turmoil to me. You know I guess in part because they’re such kind of great things or something. I think what we were talking about here was talking about how I feel really exhausted sometimes by the fact that I have this thing that I do every week. And then school. And then Laney. All of which I kind of feel like I have this kind of heavy burden and obligation to kind of live up to. And to kind of give what is owed to it or something. [0:04:02]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And I constantly feel like that’s really difficult for me to do. And I feel like the only way I’m able to do it – even if I’m – in the instances that I feel like I’m able to it only kind of comes with this like really heavy amount of work and effort. And yeah. I think what I thought about after I left – which seemed kind of like a nice thing to think about.

As opposed to sometimes it doesn’t really feel nice to think about things the way I come to think about them here – but –. There are really excellent things. And if I kind of step back and look at myself I get a glimpse of my kind of basic outline of my life and the things that make it up is being constituted just by a bunch of really excellent, awesome things. You know? [0:05:19]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And that I wish I could enjoy those a little bit more. You know what I mean? I wish –

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: The fact that I had these really incredible kind of opportunities and relationships and experiences – yeah. That that could really be feeling happy as opposed to the way that I feel like it usually does. You know? Yeah and I guess I just felt like I never really kind of viewed all of those things in that way.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And (inaudible). It just seemed a very different way for me to think about it to be honest. [0:06:17]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I really don’t think I ever really – I think all those things even though I wasn’t in school until less than a year ago. I think I could have said the same thing even before that. I have – being in school at Providence College was a similarly excellent opportunity. All things considered. Yeah I guess it just – I kept kind of kept going back and thinking about it in the sense that it seemed like a much more kind of optimistic place to kind of start from. [0:07:05]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Thinking about this stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it really makes – and when I think about it it really seems kind of shocking to me. Like I just never really viewed it that way.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I don’t really know how I was viewing but it just – yeah it was very evident to me that it’s just not the way that I really looked it before.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: They were just a series of burdens. You know? It (inaudible at 0:07:38) that anything fit into.

THERAPIST: It was like a – how did you put it?

CLIENT: They were just sort of different forms of burden that if I left school and I stopped coming here and I stopped being with Laney— then just to take those three things which seems to be three of the biggest things I’m thinking of –. Something else would fill those [shells] very quickly. And would become just as kind of burdensome or something. You know what I mean? [0:08:10]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I guess to kind of give to those things a unique and positive quality to them. It’s just a very different way of thinking about it.

THERAPIST: Yeah they’re each things that you – one point is that you’ve sought them out for yourself. And with the hope that I think that it would something – with the idea that it would be positive. It would be good. In each case. And yeah you were really getting into how it’s almost like it emerged from your discussion of how sometimes you can feel like these things can feel like their own burdens in a way. [0:09:03]

Or things that require a lot of careful attention to that become its own kind of anxiety for you or stress. They’re nonetheless – out of that conversation was this sense that these are the things that you care about. Or the things that you want to have in your life. That you sought out because of their potential for you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I guess part of it even is more just shifting my kind of focus or shifting the way that I think about it.

THERAPIST: Towards these are positive?

CLIENT: Towards even just kind of even like opening up the possibility. I mean it just –

THERAPIST: Mm. Hmm.

CLIENT: Even – not even to say that I feel like it’s something that I could start doing tomorrow or something. But even though – just kind of open up that space. [0:10:08]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: To view those things like that.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: To – I don’t know. It just seems like just carving like a really kind of uncharted place for my thoughts to go to.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And part of it I could explain it as like the way that I feel like I’ve come to think about things and think about myself is partially very over-determined that –. I feel like I’ve kind of like accepted as natural certain aspects of the way that I do things. You know? The range of possibilities are just like how much I’m going to be stressed out or anxious for the rest of my life or something. You know? Maybe I could be less anxious or something. [0:11:14]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And that that was just kind of conceded too. In a way. You know what I mean? And I think we were talking last week about how like I see kind of people maybe really able to kind of be in school and do that thing. And then it turn it off and kind of go home. And maybe enjoy other things outside of school. And kind of navigate that distinction in a way that seemed really healthy in ways that I felt like – you know – the way I did it was unhealthy or something.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But it always just seemed to me that progress was figuring out ways that – not that I could actually do it any better – but just that it would be less evident to the people around me. Or if the problem that I saw was that it was getting in the way of my relationship with Laney – not that like I could do it in a way that would feel better for me. But that I could just not let it affect Laney so much. Or something. [0:12:26]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Those were always the terms. You know what I mean? Which I’m thinking about now it seems very much kind of the way that I – it seems very much kind of indicative of the way (inaudible at 0:12:42) with my parents in a way. Almost like I’m kind of projecting those terms onto other parts of my life.

Like with my dad for example – I have a very limited range of possibilities about what I think is possible between me and my dad. Or something. The things that bother me about him or something. And a lot of seems to just be like things that I kind of need to accept or something. Just with my like my parents in general there is going to be a level of unhappiness or sadness through it that –. [0:13:35]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. For sure.

CLIENT: And that it seems logical to me is not really kind of susceptible to a whole lot of change. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It seems more like how do I relate to that and how do I create boundaries between it? How do I kind of corner it off and partition it into certain kind of weekends that I kind of go into that? You know what I mean? Did that make any sense? [0:14:23]

THERAPIST: Um yeah.

CLIENT: I guess like with my parents I’ve accepted that like a certain level of unhappiness that’s going to come from that. It just seems to come with the territory. You know what I mean? I mean there is a lot of things that I could probably do to try to make my relationship with my parents less unpleasant and what not. But I don’t really see that – I don’t really see a possibility there to like maybe look at from a different angle and see that things really aren’t that bad.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Like it’s just not – it would be delusional to do otherwise. You know what I mean? I think it’s like “Whoa, what are the healthier ways of accepting that?” And creating space between space between it – you know what I mean? Like what kind of relationship – enjoyable, loving relationships with my parents can kind of take root around that or something? You know what I mean? [0:15:26]

THERAPIST: Yeah. But yeah not with this sense of possibility that you have with Laney or this.

CLIENT: Yeah there is no possibility of happiness per se there. You know what I mean? Like it doesn’t seem it to me at least.

THERAPIST: With your mom too?

CLIENT: Just like the sphere of my parents in general.

THERAPIST: Sphere?

CLIENT: Like to engage with it is going be like engaged with just unpleasant things. Like to just spend time with my mom is to bring into focus unpleasant realities. You know what I mean? That she is living the life that she’s living. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: (pause at 0:16:14 until 0:16:23) I guess like what I’m saying is like the way that I feel like I kind of articulated it last week seems to kind of break from that framework. Yeah to see maybe actually can –. [0:16:41]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it just made me kind of wonder just wonder how much of that accepting this inevitable degree of unhappiness or something. How much of it maybe I just assumed that to be in terms of certain things that don’t necessarily have to be there or something? You know you what I mean?

THERAPIST: Do you think that’s what – yeah that’s kind of what you’re getting at.

CLIENT: I don’t know. I mean it seemed interesting to me at least that I was able to think about things last week in a way that I definitely couldn’t think –. I definitely couldn’t think about my relationship with parents as like “Oh wow. These are just a bunch of like really awesome aspects of my life that I wish I could take advantage of more.” You know? [0:17:33]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I guess I’ve kind just (inaudible at 0:17:41).

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. (Pause at 0:17:43 until 0:17:58)

CLIENT: And I even found myself at one point thinking last week just in like really simple terms that I had kind of convinced myself that I had to be unhappy in certain ways. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 0:18:19)

CLIENT: (inaudible) possibility of not being like anxious or unhappy open for things outside of my parents or something. [0:18:29]

THERAPIST: Well it’s an interesting idea. This sense that you had to be unhappy.

CLIENT: With my parents – I don’t know. I don’t know. And maybe even that is something that can be excavated or something but – (pause at 0:18:46 until 0:18:56). I just – I don’t know. I guess I just feel like with my family or with my dad or my mom however much I go into that there is just going to be unhappiness. I guess I’ve just never really felt much else. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s always been the more time I spend with them the more unhappy I tend to feel.

THERAPIST: Mm. Mm-hm.

CLIENT: It’s always been the more space I create between them and myself the better I feel. [0:19:32]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: You know? Doing stuff with my family on the holidays has never left me feeling good. You know?

THERAPIST: Oh. Oh.

CLIENT: Whereas Laney sometimes might feel anxious and to seek refuge and try to feel better with that she might go spend time with her family. I guess it’s just the converse of that.

THERAPIST: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah it is.

CLIENT: And – (pause at 0:19:59 until 0:20:07).

THERAPIST: Yeah I have this sense that it maybe it’s when you said something to the effect of “It’s always been that way” that I started to think about what – that something started to change when your parents . The unhappiness was more evident – maybe it was always there – but I just had this impression of it was salient when your parents start to really go separate ways. [0:20:50] (Pause until 0:20:58)

I don’t know if my sense is from what you described it was their divorce necessarily. But what kind of entered into my mind was you going back to where you used to live on the train – the train out and all that. And went down your old street and saw your old home and how that had a different kind of feeling to it in certain ways. Some ways were reminiscent of the present but some ways there was some sort of thing. [0:21:35]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Maybe I’ve got it on my mind that the role of your parents – the dissolution of your parents’ marriage having impacted your relationship with each of them individually. And your framework.

CLIENT: Yeah. It is interesting because – like the way that I view it now. I mean I guess I could construct lineage whereby there was the right house and everything was really kind of nice. And I was really young and there was no idea that my parents would split up and that my mom would be kind of really unhappy. And my dad might have been like an asshole to her. [0:22:35]

Like none of those things really existed there. And then we left there and then they kind of split up and then – I don’t really view it though as like some great thing that we had at the red house and then kind of fell apart. I mean even when I think back to it – when I went back there then like there was—. It just never in my mind really takes the form of some like fall from grace or something.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: All that stuff then was just – it was even kind of . At the red house maybe things were really great it’s just that even more sad. Because it was illusory. It wasn’t actually that. You know what I mean? [0:23:32]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It wasn’t that it was impossible that any of those things could happen but they did happen. Like you know what I mean? I don’t know. I guess I don’t have a lot of like memories of pre-dissolution or something. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Partially I guess just because it didn’t even really – there wasn’t really any event really. Like (inaudible at 0:24:01) even like when we had that conversation. And my dad said he was moving out which would be like the closest thing to it. (Pause at 0:24:08 until 0:24:15) It was kind of just like self-evident even beforehand. They’d been sleeping in different rooms and I’d even met the woman that he would then go to move in with. You know? [0:24:24]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: (pause at 0:24:26 until 0:24:30) In the sense – I don’t feel like there was any kind of a point at which like it really became – you could really attribute it to any kind of specific thing. Or whatever. It was just always kind of negative.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Yeah more deeply embedded in your experience.

CLIENT: Yeah I mean they never – they never had a great relationship I don’t think. You know? (Pause at 0:25:08 until 0:25:18) (inaudible) even just seems like consistent with that also. Like it just kind of got worse I guess you could say. Not like it went from bad to good. It just kind of got worse when he moved out. [0:25:32]

And my mom got even more depressed and stuff. But. And I’ve been saying like I’m thinking there wasn’t even really like a thing before them splitting up where maybe it was like just a good thing that could just be kind of this was a happiness that then kind of like disappeared. Like it was never even really that. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Like in a way I feel like I was talking about things last week. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like I remember when my dad moved out. He was upset. It was upsetting because I had to see my dad cry and stuff. And like that sucked. And it was upsetting because we were talking about it. And I feel like up to that point it was just kind of like we all had adopted our own unwritten rules. [0:26:37]

Like we don’t talk about it or anything. But – (pause at 0:26:42 until 0:27:02). It wasn’t really that much more unhappy afterwards. In a weird way it was genuinely almost like a relief. You know? Like in some ways it actually did make things almost a little easier.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? Like some pretenses were given up or something. And like in the same way that like right now I don’t like to be in the same place as my mom and my dad.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Which makes sense because they’re not together. So it’s like unusual when they’re in the same place. Like (inaudible) didn’t really like it when they were in the same place before my dad moved out. Like because it was kind of rare that the three of us would do something together. You know? [0:27:45]

THERAPIST: Yeah. You (inaudible)

CLIENT: So it would almost – (inaudible at 0:27:53) one of the backwards things about it and why it was kind of hard for me to think about. Because it’s like really an upsetting thing. Because it genuinely was kind of like relieving in a way. You know? But I don’t think – I think that would have required me at the time to have understood it in a way that I don’t think I really could have.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? Which is like my parents should be divorced. You know what I mean? (Pause at 0:28:20 until 0:28:30) So the whole thing was just like gradations of discomfort. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. You think back to it and you don’t see any – it’s like there is a shutting out of. It’s almost like you look back and there is not the sense of there being anything hopeful or positive about or a potential there between the two of them. [0:28:57]

CLIENT: No. I mean and like progress. And like good things were just minimizations of discomfort. Like that – like those are the things that I remember. Those are the things that stand out. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah in some ways the breaking up the ease – diffused otherwise more potentially anxious kind of situation.

CLIENT: Yeah. And like those – like that far more than like this great thing crashing and falling apart. Like there never really seemed to be any of that. You know what I mean? Like the process was like something that just predated me or my consciousness of it. It was just sort like this negative oozing energy. Or something. [0:29:56]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? And it was just kind of the process of that dissolving. And I don’t know. I imagine that was probably something that was kind of confusing for me at the time because I think generally it was probably really upsetting that I was seeing my parents – like when my dad moved out. Like I was seeing it happen explicitly before my eyes. But I knew genuinely like was a little relieving in certain ways. You know? I imagine that was kind of hard to make sense of.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (Pause at 0:30:32 until 0:30:42)

CLIENT: But it was – yeah. I mean it was just kind of a process of like managing negativity. [0:30:46]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: In more manageable ways than others. Like that seems to be what the history of it was. You know what I mean? (Pause at 0:30:56 until 0:31:15) Yeah and there is kind of a limited range of kind of optimistic, hopeful opportunities in that I suppose. You know what I mean? That maybe like that could have kind of impacted the way that I’ve come to think about like possibilities of happiness or something.

You know what I mean? (Pause at 0:31:46 until 0:31:57) That even like the things that were the most kind of relieving to me – like I think it was really relieving to me when my dad moved out. But that was like similarly at the same time also like the catalyst of the great increase in my mother’s unhappiness. Because then she was like alone. And I noticed that she got a lot more depressed after that. [0:32:24]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? But it was both of those things. (Pause at 0:32:30 until 0:32:41) I don’t know. It just makes me wonder if like – (pause at 0:32:42 until 0:32:51). When I think back to it like and I think about it in those terms – there is not a lot of just like unqualified and unconditionally like positive moments. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Even the things that got easier in like some sense just came with an increase in difficult aspects in another sense or something. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: I’m realizing as you’re talking – I don’t know if you’ve been noticing but you’ve said, “Do you know what I mean?” a lot. [0:33:33]

CLIENT: I guess because I’m not hearing you say anything.

THERAPIST: Huh. Could you say more about that? What are you feeling? What are you noticing – (inaudible at 0:33:48) of why I said that is because I realize there is something that I said about, “Hey was there something about something that was lost about your – something that was lost. Was there something before the divorce that was there that was present or something to you?”

And I wonder if it was kind of shut off or there was some way that there – that somehow that their divorce had an effect on you. And what you’ve been kind of really emphasizing to me is that that wasn’t the case. [0:34:31]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And that I wonder if you were having the feeling that I didn’t get that. And that that was important.

CLIENT: Yeah. No I mean it stood out to me. I feel like I got a vibe of like what you were saying and it stuck out in my head like on some level – we’re not on the same ground at all.

THERAPIST: Yep. Yep.

CLIENT: Like and in a way like that is just as evident to me as like the sky is blue. And it’s like hard for me to articulate that sometimes. But it’s just very evident to me that that’s the way it is. [0:35:22]

THERAPIST: That we weren’t on the same –

CLIENT: Or the fact that there wasn’t this thing beforehand.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah.

CLIENT: And I could tell that in your comment that was not – your comment seemed to offer (inaudible at 0:35:35) but it’s just something that’s just hard. It just is that way. It’s just hard for me to explain it. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. And I was thinking that in some way it really – me having that kind of impression did it have some sort of way of –. Did it really kind of elicit something in you that I was on this different track in my head specifically about the whole (inaudible at 0:36:15) or some possibility of your parents having something that I was wondering was there? Or speculating – hey was there something there? Does that make sense?

CLIENT: I mean I feel like I noticed you asking that. And in my head I was like, “To even get into this I need to go back a couple of steps and break that down for you.”

THERAPIST: (chuckles) Interesting.

CLIENT: That’s like –

THERAPIST: Interesting.

CLIENT: That’s just like – and just suggesting to me that we were starting from very different places or something. [0:36:56]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: The more immediate things that I was trying to talk about just wouldn’t make sense if that was like the basis upon which all this was – you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking about it terms of two of – that somehow it plays into some experience you had –. Again what your notions and your feelings about the divorce had this unique character or quality that you were trying to define for yourself but it was very hard to define in the context of all these kind of presumptions of what should be. Or what it could have been. [0:37:46]

And like you were saying about “Yeah maybe I should have been more sad when my dad left but – and maybe there was something to that – but there was immense relief too.” And you’re not even sure what you did feel in terms of sadness. It was just startling is maybe how you were putting it. And it made me think a bit about – I don’t know how this ties in to – I suspect it does. How it ties into what you began with in terms of the possibilities that you’ve noticed in relationship to me and to Laney to school. (Pause at 0:38:30 until 0:38:40) Yeah. What I just said was kind of too broad but – (sighs)

Yeah I was just struck by how my misperception really impacts. When you said you need me to go back a couple of steps to really get it. [0:39:05]

CLIENT: Was because – that’s the whole—. That may have been always been – all it really ever may have been to me. With my whole experience with my parents and their marriage.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It was always just a way of dealing with unhappiness. And the times that it was better than other times was when there was maybe a little less unhappiness. Or more manageable unhappiness. Or –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Progress in it is more productive ways of dealing with that unhappiness. Those limits of what’s possible within there. Just different degrees of unhappiness. [0:40:11]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Like throwing it back to the other things is like – (pause at 0:40:16 until 0:40:20). It seems to be like – I’m just wondering if that’s like a thought process and a pattern has kind of come to just destroy like a template that take form for new things in my life. But that maybe don’t actually deserve to be limited in that way.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Because then the key thing there being – the key limiting factor in the thing with my parents was that it all – I was always going to be unhappy. And there was a matter of like if I was going to be like extraordinarily unhappy or unhappy in a way that lets me be more productive and do things. Or feel maybe less miserable. You know what I mean? [0:41:14]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Or like if someone dies. How do you – there are better points to be at then other places within the process of dealing with that experience. But – someone’s already dead. It’s always like unhappy if somebody’s dead. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like –

THERAPIST: Yeah I think if I got it right it’s kind of like you’re sort of saying, “Listen there wasn’t a sense of possibility and happiness. Or kind of like a good feeling in my family. Like a positive place. A place where you feel like you’ve got something for yourself that felt rich with possibility and positivity. That kind of possibility was always sort of foreclosed.” Or maybe it wasn’t something that you would quite articulate to yourself that way but it was just more of a background sense. [0:42:25]

CLIENT: Right. And that comment that you made which presumed this thing before like the divorce suggested the existence of precisely that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah that’s right.

CLIENT: Which – I was trying to paint a picture of the whole experience as always having been void of that.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? (Pause at 0:42:42 until 0:42:47)

THERAPIST: I do. I do know what you mean. Yeah. (Pause at 0:42:49 until 0:42:55) Yeah. Yeah. I think why I’m bringing up the thing about “Do you know what I mean?” is that seemed some damn important. And I mean really. Because something about your own experience within this – within those contexts, within those kind of situations – was not something that I think that anybody knew what you meant or knew what you felt. Or knew what was going on for you. [0:43:31]

It makes me think again about the idea of a good divorce. Something about the way meaning was put onto you it wasn’t so much what did it mean to you – you’re being told what it meant. I don’t know if that’s too much to presume but I’m thinking that you’re trying to find your own way of – listen we’ve done a lot of work to really have you redefine and talk about the meaning of this divorce to you in a very different way. But I also think you’re also saying – you’re trying to define relationships in a very different way than with your folks. What meaning you’re going to get from relationships that is very, very different than I think your parents constructed their relationships. And your mom and your dad continue to. [0:44:23]

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: You’re trying to find your own meaning in what those things could mean to you.

CLIENT: I don’t think that’s saying too much at all. I mean like I – in a way that just seems to make a lot of sense to me. Like put it this way – I wouldn’t. Like partially I think why maybe I was asking you that so much is because I guess I haven’t really haven’t put it in those terms out loud before. And for what it’s worth I’m just saying – I wouldn’t ever explain that to my parents.

THERAPIST: Interesting.

CLIENT: That is within what we’ve spoken about. Like the guidelines of a good divorce. That does not – you know. (inaudible) that that doesn’t – that that conflicts. You know what I mean? [0:45:19]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: In the sense of maybe like thinking about it that way is to kind of go against some of those kind of principles or something.

THERAPIST: Right. Right. Right. Right.

CLIENT: But no yeah. I mean it’s definitely – it’s absolutely a different way to think about it. Different terms.

THERAPIST: And I do think what you’ve been trying to do – in here, with Laney – certainly is to have something that feels—. That is different. And you’re noticing some of the things that kind of like carry over a bit from those other relationships in the past. Some way of – something that you’re trying to articulate around – this is what I bring into these relationships though. [0:46:20]

The kind of sense of real responsibility and burden is just more descriptive than explanatory. But there is something about that that can have a role in shaping your feelings about a relationship. What you’ve also been saying is these are good things. These are positives. (Pause at 0:46:46 until 0:46:54)

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean – and when I say that I kind of mean to distinguish it from like my parents.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Exactly.

CLIENT: I mean I’m definitely – I already know what precisely what is in that distinction but I – but that distinction is very evident to me. [0:47:20]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: That’s not – they’re not things like that. Like maybe they’re things that –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 0:47:31) possibilities or something.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Even down to school where you’re doing something – at least on the surface similar – but going to school but you’re wanting to have a very different relationship with—. One the experience of school and experience too with Laney and going to school versus your dad going to school and your mother –. In addition to is that you’re going to use differently. (Chuckles) I mean it’s like a lot of redefinition. Remaking your own meaning out of all that. [0:48:13]

CLIENT: Yeah. I may I get partially too like one of the things that I think is interesting – because (inaudible at 0:48:18) touches on it sometimes too. And you have the whole number of times – the ways that it’s interesting how me going to school is like going down a similar path that my dad did. I guess the way that I always like – I always feel like resistant to accepting the specialness or uniqueness of school in that sense. (inaudible at 0:48:46)

It kind of like occurred to me that like yeah in a way (inaudible at 0:48:53) everything I do I kind of see it as me doing something that my dad did. But like I think even more than that just anytime I’ve ever been in a relationship with a woman like that has been very evident to me. That I’m doing something exactly like what my dad did and trying to redefine that. Like I guess like maybe that’s why I just – at the risk of not acknowledging how much that plays into my thought process – there is my relationship with Laney. Another woman. [0:49:30]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: In that sense school is just another example. It’s not like this new – like the first time that I feel like I’m raising the possibility of like coming close to my dad. I guess it’s because I’ve actually been thinking about that since I started dating people in high school. Or something.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. (inaudible at 0:49:56)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I was just thinking how it would be good to kind of keep this up. Flowing.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 0:50:09)

THERAPIST: Well again I’ll let you know. So the earliest—[0:50:15] [end of audio]

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