TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Thanks for that!

CLIENT: Thank you for mentioning it. It will make things a little easier.

THERAPIST: Good! I’m glad.

CLIENT: (pause) When I... So, after I got back last weekend, because you know at the end, I was a little bit still... I don’t know. I think I had gotten sort of part way into thinking... through, you know... I knew that I still held myself responsible, in some ways, in that I have this tendency to end up feeling responsible, even when I... it... in... more relaxed moments, when I look at it, I know that I shouldn’t. But I somehow end up there anyway, and... [00:01:15]

I was, so I was still sort of trying to... sort of think my way through that, I guess. I got, so I have Genevieve (sp) to take a nap and Karl had to be back at the lab. He had a meeting that afternoon and... and I picked up the phone and I called my mom. And, this is, sort of... different, because beforehand, I wouldn’t have done that, because I... I knew that she was tender of, of... in talking about my in-laws and I was tender of any kind of... anything that’s, that felt like talking behind somebody’s back or making comparisons. [00:02:30]

And... but I was just, since... I guess it’s just, we’ve had, since that subject had finally been broached, and since when it comes out, I needed my mom’s sympathy. I needed, I rely on her judgment. It felt really great to be able to pick up the phone and give her a call. And... And so then, we were talking, I think, I was telling her about, you know, about that bizarre conversation and... how... I still haven’t (ph), even though it... I knew it was important to be able to stand up and say things. I, at the same time, I... felt, this sense of... guilt and responsibility and the... first thing that she, she was just very firm with me about that, that... You know, first of all, she said, she apologized, because she said I think that you get that from me. She has a tendency to look at herself, which wasn’t something I really... [00:04:19]

(pause) It’s not something that really struck me, I guess, growing up, about her. But... to an extent, it, you know, sort of, with hindsight, it... I can sort of... Well like, just for example, after, she was... When Genevieve was going to be born, she was doing some cooking, because she said that she remembered when she was... a... when Leah was born, it was her first baby. She realized that she didn’t really want people around, but it was really helpful to have other food around, so that she just didn’t have to worry about that. So, when people brought meals, that was great. If you just pop in, say, “Hi, you’re doing great,” leave food, and leave. [00:05:27]

So she did a lot of cooking. Then... she had all of this food in the freezer downstairs. There was this massive deluge that flooded the city of Cleveland, destroyed their basement, and the freezer went off and she just didn’t feel like... It might have been okay, but she didn’t want to give it to somebody who was breastfeeding. Basically, the food was all... some of it was just ruined, and some of it, she didn’t feel quite comfortable... [00:06:05]

She was so apologetic about that. I was on the phone thinking, “She put all of that work in and it all then, you know, it was all destroyed. Oh, poor mommy! Wait, they have to re-finish the whole basement and all of her, the books that they keep down there were destroyed! Oh no!” Like... So, I guess, what I’m saying is, I think, I can sort of see like, I would probably... I don’t know whether that would be exactly me, but it’s the same sort of pattern. [00:06:49]

(pause) But... the thing is that she, you know, I think she heard me and she had said... you know... So what she said is, “I think you need confirmation that it really just,” you know, she said, it, “You know that it’s... (inaudible), but I think you need confirmation that it’s not just... that other people see the same events the same way you do,” basically. And... and so... it reminded me of certain things that like... I remember when I was pregnant and my, both of my aunts and uncles in the Kentucky area, my Aunt Kristie and my Uncle Josh and Tammy and John came to the (inaudible), because that was the best. We decided at the time, that was the best, most convenient meeting place. [00:08:11]

I already told (inaudible) Karl afterwards that it didn’t really feel like I got a chance to visit with them, and next time we should just go there, because we were talking about... This was before Cadence and Tris got engaged, so we, it was probably just going to be me and Karl going to Jordan, this past winter. My aunts were, and uncles were asking about it and... Kathleen... said, “Oh, well you should just leave the baby with us while you go.” And... sort of tried to laugh it off and just like, “No, of course we’d have to bring the baby with us.” It just went back and forth several times. [00:09:06]

Karl interjected quite firmly, and she still repeated it! (chuckles) It was quite uncomfortable, and I was feeling a little... I already felt a little bit embarrassed that my, that this was going on with my relatives there. Because... and... partially because I... thought it was a weird thing for them to be hearing. Also, I wasn’t really sure like, how... I mean, I have every reliance on these people to love me, no matter what, but... There was still that sort of feeling full with my family in there and how to handle it and... how good... that I had to have, you know, model of good behavior or something like that. [00:10:20]

And... My mother wasn’t there, of course, but she and my Aunt Kristie talk so much that’s a family joke. They... and... came up with, I, and... my mother told me, she said, “You know like... you are fine. Karl did the right thing. That’s... She should just, should not...have done that and you do need to figure out how to get your own space. That’s your baby.” She said, “You’re...” She said, “I know that you’ll figure out how to handle this. I know you’re... I mean, you know how, you know, always figure out to handle things.” [00:11:23]

But her intention (ph) wasn’t... you know, we had been sort of telling myself, which I always have to... figure out how to be nice, how to talk things through, how to be... like it was... he would would have to figure out how to be... how to navigate getting your own space... which was... (pause) Well it’s kind of, I think, you know, it’s kind of, I... It’s kind of something coming from my mother, who is not the most, at least she’s not, definitely not overtly an assertive person.

I don’t mean that she’s not strong, but... she’s not... you know, she definitely didn’t... say, “Tell Kathleen at any point, hang on, I’m taking a role in this wedding, too.” [00:12:56]

(pause) And she’s not... the sort to, sort of... She’s not the sort to take charge of a project, basically. She believes very strongly in, sort of, more collaborative types of work and things. That’s more her, you know, she and... She and my aunt working on these books together. It’s very... I mean, I was living at the house through the first one. Everything was just getting, everything was very even-handed between the two of them. And... I’m... That was, you know, that’s much more her style of doing things. So like, you know, I guess... it was something for me to hear, when my mother’s judgment is, it, that...

(pause 00:14:25 to 00:14:47)

I think it’s partially because she, I hadn’t realized until I was speaking with her on Tuesday, but I think it’s partially because she... has gotten more of a dose of dealing with Kathleen than I had thought. I hadn’t realized that apparently Kathleen has called her periodically to ask her to interfere with me, um, this more than once. And she wasn’t telling me this, because she... (inaudible) said she did not want to, (chuckles) both of us were not wanting to... to be... I guess kind of standing on our own form of principle, in the face of something that was really violating both of our senses of principle. [00:15:43]

That’s the way that I see it. Both of us, you know, seeing it, not as... I guess, not seeing it really as Kathleen, but as Karl not wanting to... be... doing something that felt unfair towards... to be unfair towards him. His family merits respect. Anyway, but before the... apparently around the time of the birth, when we were sort of figuring out what we wanted to do, in terms of childcare, and how much childcare, and whether we were, you know, at that... Certainly, for the first few months, we knew that we were going to need to have... a sitter, because it’s too young to put into any kind of a daycare, but... Fine, we’re dealing with all of that. [00:16:49]

And... Kathleen had decided that we should get a full-time, basically a full-time sitter and... We knew that we didn’t want that. I certainly knew I didn’t want that. And... she called up my mother to say that she thought that we needed it, and she didn’t want to be an interfering mother-in-law, so perhaps my mother could put the idea forward. Mother, of course, politely declined. That was just one example.

(pause 00:17:41 to 00:18:10)

And it’s interesting is, you know, I... was... sort of looking at all of this stuff around me, like going on around me right now. What I’m thinking is... (pause) You know... (sighs) On the one hand, I still feel very much like, I’m still... certainly I’ve felt as it sort of, as it was all building up, I still sort of felt like I was... kind of... blocked, trapped by these... this kind of... principle, the type of principle, I guess I had built up. On the other hand, when I sort of pause and think about it... I might have gotten pretty shaky when I was, by the end of that conversation with Kathleen. But... I said everything that I needed to say. I didn’t... I didn’t stop myself, I knew the... what I needed to get across, which was exactly the same sorts of things that my mother told Kathleen, and she didn’t flinch. [00:20:03]

About... about, you know... that would be for me and Karl to talk about. That would be something that would be between us to talk about, just the way any other married couple should talk about the sorts of decisions they make. And... Then I was, I ended up feeling pretty shaken afterwards, but I think that might have just, that might have been... in part, because I just... I hadn’t really done that before. You know, it was... and I’ve sort of... I did end up feeling and having to, that feeling... [00:20:58]

(pause) It’s these kinds of... of... the responsibility, being ill assured (ph), the low self-confidence, what was I, what am I doing? I don’t understand what’s going on. (pause) But on the other hand, I don’t have any regrets for saying what I thought. (pause) Part of it, I think is, the reason this has just been so stressful right now is because I really was beginning to get quite... I was definitely beginning to get quite panicky about it, in the lead up to my birthday. [00:22:13]

I knew that I was going to have to... that I was going to have to deal with something from them, that I was going to have to, either speak on the phone or... and you know, like, Karl and I had opened that present in advance and talked about how to deal with it, and stuff. It was... (pause) I just had these feelings of anxiety for (sighs)... I’m not a very big person around these sorts of things. I just had the, I... [00:23:13]

(pause) I liked to have Jen over, when we were in Sackville (ph) and I liked to have my friend Lucy over when we were in Cleveland. That was approximately the extent of my... things and... I just did not want to, I was just getting quite... uneasy about it, essentially the kind of... You know what sort of pricked (ph), I, it was... when we were talking about generosity and gratefulness beforehand? That’s the kind of thing that I was, that was sort of, exactly that kind of... anxiety was coming back again. [00:24:22]

(pause) I mean... I know that probably my parents and Leah bought me stuff when, like, that they know Leah was sort of plotting with Karl about something and that just hasn’t gotten here yet, or whatever. I could care less. I had a brief chance to speak to my parents before I was running off to put Genevieve to bed, or go to class, or whatever it was. I don’t remember when they called. It was very nice. My friend Jen sent me an e-mail and I was just absolutely thrilled and warmed that she had remembered that it was, that it was my birthday. [00:25:04]

(pause) But then... I... the doorbell rang. Well, Karl was out at the lab, and I had Genevieve. Went downstairs and there was... (chuckles) in hindsight, it’s kind of funny. There was a package that came from... some place called... a farm, or something like that, whatever. The company had “Farms” at the end, so I was absolutely convinced that it must be... one of my relatives who got me (inaudible) from some farm. And... when... So I went happily to work, opening the package. It was... from... it was from Laura, who has not been in touch with Karl in almost two months now. [00:26:15]

(pause) She sent me a... sort of kitschy set of soaps, the sort of thing that, you know... When you’re 12 and you’re going to somebody’s house, and you don’t really know the person. You sort of pick up some cute soaps from the drug store or something like that? And... (pause) And it kind of struck me that... I was brought up to be, Leah and I were really brought up to be... quite on the severe side about material things. I mean, we both love pretty things and... we don’t quite, I mean, we don’t really... [00:27:34]

(pause) Leah loves pretty kitchen gadgets and I love my lace yarns (ph), but we’re people, and people like to have things. It’s just... most people are like that, I think. But, there was... (pause) I don’t quite know how to put my finger on it, but there was just something about... (pause) For my last birthday, Laura sent me a very sweet e-mail, and I replied and we had quite a cheerful conversation via e-mail. (pause) And I could... I was... I was very happy. [00:28:47]

(pause) But there was something that felt so inappropriate about not having spoken to Karl... and... it could perfectly well be that she... sort is struggling with that and isn’t ready to talk to him, but didn’t want to forget me, and then this was her way of sort of... But I don’t know. I can’t make myself buy it, I guess. I don’t, I just don’t... there is just... (pause) It felt like it was meant as an insult, almost. It felt... and I... and I wasn’t, I... and there was just...

(pause 00:30:05 to 00:30:32)

This was the sort of thing I was afraid of, I think. This was exactly, that’s kind of... I didn’t know what was going to come, but I knew it wasn’t really going to be about me. And while I do not care about making everything be about me or... I’m very happy to sort... I remember this short story I read once. It just resonated with me. It was by a local guy, about... I mean, it was very funny... who, her husband wanted to throw her a really nice birthday party, because she had a big birthday coming up. And... She was nervous about it, because she remembers birthday parties and how scared she would be of... of... having to open her presents in front of people, in case anything disappointed her and somebody could tell. [00:31:37]

I never had that specific fear. But... that kind of idea, of... come to think of it, I probably didn’t have that fear, because my parents thought it was... that you should open your presents afterwards, and then write thank-you notes. But it was... (pause) that not liking to be in the limelight, that not liking to be... to have sort of... judgment on you about things, not about personality or your actions or... or, you know, have you... [00:32:40]

(pause) About your, it’s not about your character. It’s about these things. And sometimes that makes sense, sometimes there are nice things, but they’re things. And... what marks, to me, the really, that really good gift exchange is like... For my, for last year (which was the first time that I had my birthday after Karl and I got married, and we’re still learning about each other), but he knows perfectly well that I love poetry and he also knew that... I had been sort of hoping and planning to increase my ancestral learning a bit. He got me a beautiful book about the book of Psalms. [00:34:03]

He didn’t know very... didn’t... know exactly what books and whatever (inaudible/blocked) was. It’s not, I can’t say it’s a book I’ve used a huge amount. Probably should change that, but it’s... It felt absolutely about me as a person, not about... The object was incidental. (pause) And what connects the... the present from... Kathleen and the... the present from Laura in my mind is that one was an expensive gift, sort of trying to... push me into something that I didn’t want, part I didn’t want to be like, and one was... a... something that was so ridiculously unlike... just... that the thing for the sake of thing-ness to... I don’t get it. Karl, I don’t’ know what it was really. Passive aggressive something, I have no idea. But it wasn’t about... (pause) It wasn’t about showing any kind of affection. [00:35:58]

(pause) The funny thing is that Paul was... Karl spoke with Paul yesterday and... to try to... get through things in a more rational way, because... I, very... I very strongly recommended it, because it... There is just no point in trying to coordinate these visits with Kathleen, because she doesn’t listen. If we can coordinate them with Paul, then it... might go somewhere. And... (pause) First of all, he knew about maybe half of what had happened. Kathleen hadn’t told him much about... [00:37:07]

(pause) And... (pause) The other thing was that after... you know, just to keep on the topic of the gift, is that, you know, he had no idea about the cardigans that she had gotten me previously, that I haven’t... I have, that were very much the same style and that I hadn’t wanted. And... he... (pause) But it was funny, just that his response was so... sympathetic about the whole thing, that it... made... All of a sudden, I felt like, although he was thinking about me, you know? That’s so thoughtful! That’s so sweet, they really, you know, he like, it’s evident that he was, you know, he was involved and he was trying and he was thinking and that’s really lovely. [00:38:43]

Then, you know, to top it off, then I said, “You know, Karl, it’s obvious that we’re just shooting in the dark here. Look, can’t you just give us an idea of, you know, what Tammy (sp) would care for?” And... sometimes, you know, I... they are (inaudible), you know. He was... thinking about me as a person with tastes of her own, and... those might be... different or not really... now there may be, maybe it’s worth finding out about.

(pause 00:39:34 to 00:39:54)

I kind of, sort of... drove home like that... like, that feeling from you that... which was reassuring to me, because I definitely don’t think about myself as being a materialistic person, that it really wasn’t about, that exactly the same gift might have been a smile and an eye roll like, “Oh, come on! Who would think that, you know, Tammy who was never not knitting, would want something that’s, you know... that she could... choose the yarn and the needles and the pattern and then put together what she actually wants. Takes all the fun away.” But... But it was so thoughtful that that person would think and try and that’s very sweet.

(pause 00:40:57 to 00:41:35)

There is this... general...

(pause 00:41:40 to 00:42:42)

It’s kind of a sort of general feeling of... on the one hand, I feel like I’m moving forward. I do think that... you know... I’m... I’m not... I’m not quite as liable to... I’m not so liable to force myself to do things I don’t want, or... Kathleen called on... in the evening while Karl and I were out. I had left my cellphone at home on purpose, because I wanted to make sure that... we just had some time for the two of us. [00:43:49]

Normally, I could... see myself holding the phone and sort of forcing myself to press “call back.” And, instead, I just sent a, a quick thank-you note e-mail for, you know, “Thank you for thinking to call. Karl and I were out to dinner, but it was very kind of you to remember my birthday.” Just... at that, because... Honestly, for most other people, I would probably do the same, and why would I force myself to go that extra step, when I’m busy, I have ten other things on every hand to do and... I didn’t really have time to speak on the phone, but because I feel guilty, because we don’t have a good relationship, I mean I had to... go that extra mile. [00:44:49]

THERAPIST: Tammy, we’re going to have to stop, but it does seem like you’re making progress, even though as, what happened on Tuesday, you can get, then over the weekend before, so deeply upset, you know, about her, Kathleen’s intrusiveness. You should certainly continue to talk about that, but also think about the ways that you want to move forward. (client affirms) Okay?

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Okay, great! So I will see you on Tuesday, then.

CLIENT: Yeah, thank you for making time for another extra...

THERAPIST: Absolutely, absolutely. Take care. (chuckles)

CLIENT: Thank you.

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