TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

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[00:01:03]

THERAPIST: Hey. Come on in.

CLIENT: Hey. Sorry. I’m running a little behind. (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Thank you for switching.

CLIENT: No worries. I certainly understand that sometimes things come up and... Yeah. (PAUSE) I’ve been thinking a fair lately about sort of casting my mind back to when I was in therapy in Cleveland several years ago now. [00:01:56]

I remember that my therapist there had a lot of... She was very interested in gift giving. (PAUSE) And... (PAUSE) She thought a lot about what it meant to give a gift and... At the time, it didn’t really say very much to me, I guess because... I remember these earrings I pretty much always wear, I actually got as a gift for my sister. She was getting infections because she wore a lot of cheap metal earrings and I remember when I got my ears pierced, I realized I couldn’t wear silver or copper... Because I got the same thing. And I recommended trying gold and I decided I’d get her a very plain gold earrings for... I don’t remember what it was for. But they were for some occasion. And I thought these were very plain and classic so, and looked pretty. [00:03:09]

So I got them and (PAUSE) she looked at them... My parents thought she was nuts. But she looked at them and said, “I would never wear those.” (LAUGHTER) And I said, “Oh, okay. I definitely would.” So we chose something else for her and I kept these and it was that kind of... (PAUSE) (SIGH) That was unusual because she hadn’t really (inaudible) and things worked out. But there wasn’t... (PAUSE) Gift giving was pretty easy in my family and it wasn’t... There weren’t problems is what I mean. [00:03:51]

So I guess it sort of... I know she was interested in that but with sorts of things, it didn’t really apply to me at the time. But I’ve been... It’s been sort of coming back to me that more so with the... Because I thought it was... I thought the things she talked about were interesting theoretically, I guess. I was like, “Well, I suppose that she’s saying these things can...” Her thing was that... She made a strong distinction between being nice and being kind. That was the way that she sort of applied vocabulary. So that the idea of niceness was... I’m severely reducing some of the things she said. But... (PAUSE) There was this idea of this pressure to be polite, to have this kind of conventional, these sort of conventions of behavior, these, this strong push to be (PAUSE) to adhere to a kind of model of behavior, a convention that’s set by society where you comply, you don’t rock the boat too much. [00:05:28]

And so if somebody gives you something that you don’t really like or if it doesn’t really work for you (PAUSE) you accept it with a smile. So that’s where the trouble can start if, for example, it’s in your family and people get the idea that you like something and it builds a resentment on your side. They feel that something is wrong but they don’t know what because you liked that. Right? And things can... [00:06:01]

So that’s one type of thing that can happen. (PAUSE) And that was the particular scenario that she described that was I guess sticking in my mind when, as I described about the situation with the sweaters where I already... Honestly, I already said, “That’s not the sort of thing that I would wear.” And that just a sort of more expensive version arrived. (PAUSE) And I thought, you know, this could go... This could really end up going into bad directions if I, if we don’t say something about it. (PAUSE) [00:7:00]

And... (PAUSE) The, the... (PAUSE) The interesting thing came when I was interesting on the phone with Leah (ph) who said, “You don’t want to do that. You don’t want to do that. That’s really rude.” And I said, “Well, you know, I can think about ways and means and maybe it would be better to speak with Paul (ph) first or something. But I think we have to say something because (PAUSE) I know that...” (PAUSE) First of all, I’m feeling... At this point, I kind of have a little bit more of a handle, to a degree, about what, how Kathleen (ph) works. And, first of all, I don’t really... (PAUSE) I don’t care terribly much if I do offend her because I think she needs to know who I am and... [00:08:02]

(PAUSE) But also I just, I don’t think it is the sort of thing that she’s particularly sensitive to. But either way, there’s a difference between yelling and screaming and saying, “How could you even think that this would be appropriate and saying, ‘Thank you so much. I really see the thought that went into this. But it’s not the sort of thing I wear and I don’t want to get into a situation where that sort of thing happens.’“ (PAUSE) But the interesting thing that struck me was how Leah, her reaction was, “You don’t want Paul to think, to see you doing something rude or... (PAUSE) You have to get... (PAUSE) You don’t want him to be shocked by these things.” [00:09:09]

That wasn’t even something that occurred to me, not even for a minute. (PAUSE) I mean, I don’t know where it came from with Leah. It’s not really my... (PAUSE) It’s not really my business. You know, it’s Leah and things that... (PAUSE) But it was interesting to me as I realized in... So I have this... (PAUSE) I guess I... It goes back to what you were saying about people you trust. And I absolutely trusted that... [00:10:00]

I might have my fears about how Kathleen would react to those sorts, to that sort of thing and I’m familiar enough with that now so I can recognize the nervousness I feel is basically a lot of her unpredictable reactions and what’s that (inaudible) of me? Am I going to get upset? (PAUSE) But I knew it was... I’m perfectly confident in myself that I was doing something that was (PAUSE) necessary and correct, taking the correct course of action. I’m still not sure whether, you know, strictly speaking, Karl (ph) speaking to his mother, it was the best road, way of going about it. But it doesn’t matter. It worked out. [00:11:03]

I knew that we were doing the right thing and I depended that people, that if I discussed it with people of sense and in a sensible way, whether or not they specifically agreed, they would understand where I was coming from. I was very... (PAUSE) I guess the... (PAUSE) I’m using the language that my, that Dr. Manomet (ph) used in Cleveland. I know that Paul was kind and that he would want to have a relationship based off of kindness and that... [00:12:05]

And you didn’t react in the appropriate way, that it would, that it wasn’t, maybe I would put things wrong, whatever, but it wasn’t me. I wasn’t afraid of that. (PAUSE) (SIGH) (PAUSE) I was sort of thinking, turning those things over in my mind during the past week when that’s pretty much what happened (inaudible). Karl had a conversation with Paul and I did definitely encourage that because, first of all, as I said, I do rely on him. I feel like I can rely on his judgment. [00:13:07]

So I had... I had a strong suspicion he didn’t know anything about what was going on, which turned out to be correct. (PAUSE) Kathleen hadn’t been telling him things and... (PAUSE) Their relationship is not by business but I have... I was fairly certain he wouldn’t know how things were going because I had noticed in the past that he didn’t know what was going on. (PAUSE) And... (PAUSE) From what Karl said to me, it sounded like Paul was... (PAUSE) [00:14:11]

It sounded like he was shocked about Kathleen calling my mother and tried to get her to interfere. (PAUSE) I have no idea where that will go. But the... (PAUSE) The consequence was that he (PAUSE) he does seem to have... He asked Karl to stay in touch with him personally because they could have their channels of communication because he wants to know what’s going on. It’s just sort of (inaudible)... (PAUSE) I mean, to me... Well, I mean, it’ll probably... It’s what I’ve been asking Karl to do. “Can you please talk to your dad because it’s easier to talk with him. (LAUGHTER) He’s more normal.” In a way, it was just... It was just two... (PAUSE) It was so strange to me with the ideas of marriage and understanding that I have that that would be necessary for him to say was very odd. You know, it just...

THERAPIST: I’m sorry. It was necessary for who to say? [00:16:09]

CLIENT: For Paul to say.

THERAPIST: Paul.

CLIENT: That it was necessary for Paul to ask his son to speak with him with... I mean, I think it’ll be great and helpful. But it just seems so very odd to me. (PAUSE) (inaudible) (PAUSE) in terms of the... He said (inaudible) sent me some... (PAUSE) Unnecessary but very kind to send me some beautiful stationery which he had consulted with Karl about and an old book that he had. [00:17:09]

And... (PAUSE) I could see that it was his handwriting throughout on the card and the package. But (PAUSE) it was... (PAUSE) [00:18:00]

I don’t even really know. I feel like I’m sort of turning around near something. But it’s... (PAUSE) I think it’s sort of related, I guess, to these ideas of... I’m thinking of something that’s sort of faded into these ideas of conventions and pressures. (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: The description of what you’re telling me, the characterization of nice from your last therapist reminds me of almost sort of a performance in a sense, kind of saying something more intrinsic to your character. Niceness is kind of performative (ph). [00:19:07]

CLIENT: Yes. Yeah. I think that’s definitely the... There’s something... It’s all vocabulary. My mother would say being nice is being phony. There’s this... That can be a bit harsh I think on some cases... But I think niceness taken to a sort of extreme. There’s a lack of something genuine, that it’s not, not authentic. I was... (PAUSE) [00:20:00]

There’s the... (PAUSE) I think it does come down to this society thing that, yes, you perform for society. But... And oftentimes, we can have, on a daily basis can have an eye on, “Well, what will they think? I better make sure I do it this way because that’s what people do.” (PAUSE) I guess, to a certain extent, we have certain types of rules because that’s necessary to the smooth workings on society. You know, if you authentically wish to have something that’s in a store but you can’t afford it, you can’t just go and shoplift it. But it’s not... But there’s a vast difference between that and... (PAUSE) [00:21:01]

(PAUSE) Well... (PAUSE) Repressing personality and character and... (PAUSE) And I think what interested me with about what I was speaking with Leah was that I do feel this pressure to be nice to keep things smooth, to follow conventions when I’m with Kathleen. But I can have a, have conversation and workings with Paul which are utterly free from performance. There’s no... (PAUSE) [00:22:11]

There’s no artifice in it. You know, that’s one of the first things I remember when I went, from before Karl and I were married, going to visit his family for the first time was that (PAUSE) when Paul picked us up from the airport, he was... (PAUSE) We stopped to pick up John (ph), the youngest brother who was bringing a box of handmade (inaudible at 00:22:55) from the rabbi at the synagogue and he told his dad that the rabbi had sent some because he wanted to make sure there was enough for the big family and the big seders they have. [00:23:09]

And Paul just stopped in the car and put his head in his hand for a minute and thought about it and said, “He is such a kind man.” And I think it was the... What struck me was that he used that word kind. And it was the stopping to think is very characteristic of Karl. (PAUSE) It was just the... It was very... You could tell that it was really a heartfelt emotion. He wasn’t afraid to express it. (PAUSE) [00:23:57]

And... (PAUSE) And I was wondering as I was thinking about that (PAUSE) or as I now think abou that, it strikes me that... (PAUSE) I’ve seen more than one of those moment from Paul and I definitely see some in Karl as well. That’s something that definitely got passed down. But I don’t see these moments of (PAUSE) heartfelt openness, genuine feeling in Kathleen. And... (PAUSE) [00:25:00]

These moments of just reflecting on somebody’s kindness. She seems quite uncomfortable with it when I mention that somebody is... She mentions like, you know, Aunt Anne or something... “Oh, she’s such a lovely woman. She’s just very, very nice, a really wonderful person.” She just hurries past that. “Yes, yes, absolutely,” and drives on. And I wonder whether part of the (PAUSE) part of the difficulty of, for me to be non-artificial or sort of grapple with the how do I behave then is because I... (PAUSE) [00:26:21]

Because I keep stopping to look for, you know... (PAUSE) Basically it’s so easy for me with those moments of heartfelt authenticity. I can trust that. I can rely on that. (PAUSE) But getting past the (PAUSE) strict conventionality... [00:27:11]

If I respond to the strict conventionality, it tends to be, I guess, with the more conventionality, more niceness. (PAUSE) And it’s very... I’m finding it difficult to be authentic myself in the face of (PAUSE) in the face of such a kind of artificial structure. (PAUSE) I guess that’s sort of the, something I’ve been sort of fumbling with a bit. [00:28:09]

You know, I was writing a thank you note to the, for the stationary and... (PAUSE) One of the things that struck me was that it was so very easy.

THERAPIST: Did you use the stationery to write the thank you note?

CLIENT: Of course. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: I had to ask that. It’s kind of cute.

CLIENT: Yeah. (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE) I have a stash but it seemed appropriate. (PAUSE) [00:28:59]

It was so very easy to write. I mean (PAUSE) I’m pretty good at that sort of thing at the best of times. But it’s... And at the worst of times. But I’ve found that thank you notes in general can be pretty difficult things to make sound fresh. “Thank you very much for the lovely...” You know, it... But it was... (PAUSE) But it’s difficult when you’re doing it again sort of conventionally. You know, it’s your wedding and people give you presents and you don’t, you don’t remember who or what. You have a list you’re looking at. (PAUSE) [00:30:01]

(inaudible) can be difficult to do because you start to be nervous because (inaudible). If it’s a matter of... It was just so generous for him to be concerned about how I felt and thinking about what would make me happy and to say, “Well, brilliant idea. Why don’t I consult Karl and find something and then...” (PAUSE) It’s so (PAUSE) easy to respond with genuine gratitude. And when you feel genuine gratitude, it can be a lot easier to write it. (PAUSE) [00:31:00]

(PAUSE) As opposed to, you know... (PAUSE) I was writing to Alan (ph) and Isaac (ph) to thank them and it was sort of... (PAUSE) I thanked them and then wrote about other things. “Thank you and now here’s what’s going on.” (PAUSE) It’s... (PAUSE) You figure out a smooth transition to, “And here’s the rest of life,” because it’s harder to dwell on what’s not really... (PAUSE) [00:32:11]

I mean, there’s nothing quite substantial there. (PAUSE) [00:33:00]

(PAUSE) One of the things that’s interesting is that I think about... (PAUSE) When I think about sort of the, most of the major players in my life, it’s... (PAUSE) I mean, we certainly all move within the bounds of these conventions and civilities to an extent. It’s... [00:34:01]

(PAUSE) We all have rules of politeness and civility and (PAUSE) how to speak and behave. (PAUSE) And, you know, there’s certainly nothing that... (PAUSE) And yet... (PAUSE) Even though all of us follow these rules of politeness and behavior, there’s still something that can be shocking about basically the trio, Isaac, Kathleen, and Laura, to me, to Karl, to another sister for example that certain things in there that are just, I guess, breaches of these sorts of conventions of what I’ve found myself thinking of saying actual politeness. (PAUSE) And I wonder if that’s where the, that, you know, kindness comes in. [00:35:57]

Because they’re certainly... They’re so very polished, so very (PAUSE) you know... (PAUSE) I guess in (inaudible at 00:36:15) than I am. I don’t (PAUSE) just, you know... (PAUSE) I think there’s probably a reason that they get me sweaters and cardigans and things (LAUGHTER) because my wardrobe isn’t that nice or fancy or anything. But... (PAUSE) [00:37:00]

(PAUSE) But there are certain types of... (PAUSE) And, you know, there’s the other types of conventions, the ones that are sort of binding me, binding us. I don’t want to talk too much about Karl’s mother because it’s Karl’s mother and I don’t want to, you know, offend or, you know... It’s unfair to him to talk about his mother behind his back. So I don’t want to talk to Gary (ph) or Gary doesn’t want to talk to me because it’s just... It’s... (PAUSE) You know, isn’t that gossip? Isn’t that unkind? [00:37:59]

(PAUSE) And yet, of course, when we do talk, do we ever say anything that is unfair by... (PAUSE) When we did get to talk, we certainly never said anything that is unfair about a person who we actually care about who is Karl. I think that part of the restrictedness there is that (inaudible at 00:38:37) that it’s Karl and we all love Karl and yet we don’t really feel any affection for his mother and we should because it’s Karl. And there’s another set of sort of guidelines or restrictions in a way that is something that feels a bit uncomfortable in the way that my family would operate. [00:39:15]

(PAUSE) And it’s very interesting, these kinds of many layers of... (PAUSE) All of the vocabulary, the vocabulary of a course I’m teaching is getting to me what professor would call normative behavior, I think. [00:40:01]

(PAUSE) I am one of these... (PAUSE) What’s okay to do? (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Well, I was thinking it’s a counterpoint to thinking about. As I’ve described her and kind of a colloquial way, crazy... Normative and conventional is sort of the opposite of that. In some respects, although it depends on how you define all these terms...

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) It’s funny. I mean, of course, you would never... (PAUSE) Yeah. If somebody walked into your house and picked up a china plate off your table because you had, you know, you invited them to dinner and you set out the nice china, and they took the plate and smashed it down onto the table so that it shattered into fragments... [00:41:11]

It’s this shattering of expectations and you expect somebody when you come over to your house to have fun and say, “Oh, it’s so nice to see you.” And you sit down and you converse and you run in a certain course. Nobody just walks over and deliberately smashes something. That total breach of expectations and you’d think that was crazy. (PAUSE) And I think one of the things that can be particularly startling with Kathleen in particular to me, also with Patricia but, and I’m sure with Laura... [00:42:19]

But it strikes me with Kathleen in particular. It can be these... That somebody who walks in takes off her shoes and looks around and says, “Oh, it’s lovely to see you and beautiful,” and then does something that’s sort of the equivalent of taking one of your nice china plates and smashing it in. It’s not that overt. But... (PAUSE) But it does that sort of thing and then sit down and make conversation about the weather. (PAUSE) [00:43:00]

(PAUSE) And I think that... (PAUSE) Things come in as that... And you have... How... And, you know, my set of rules of behavior where I’ve been brought up to live, sort of the way that I am, I was raised to deal with things, I don’t really have... (PAUSE) I don’t really have a built in response for dealing with that kind of (PAUSE) that kind of thing. [00:44:05]

I don’t have a... (PAUSE) I think that’s part of the reason that I have, when I’ve spoken about things before, I’ve said that (PAUSE) my instinct is to deal as I would with a child sometimes because with children you expect these sorts of shatterings of behavior because they haven’t learned. They don’t know. They don’t have that. And there is... And because I am somebody who has learned to deal with children and is very good with children, with a child I can sort of... (PAUSE) I was looking after a kid once who wanted another kid’s truck and smiling the whole time, just (inaudible) and socks him in the face. And then he took the truck. [00:45:01]

(PAUSE) First thing, he was... My first thought was, “Wow. (LAUGHTER) That was unexpected. I didn’t see that coming.” Then I thought, “He really had no concept of what he had done was wrong.” It just wasn’t in his... He was a slightly odd child. He had no idea that what he had done was wrong. (inaudible at 00:45:29) do nothing and not that I think that shouting is the usual best line of defense anyway. But he had to understand that what he had done was wrong before you could just sit him in time out or something like that. (PAUSE) Yeah.

THERAPIST: Tammy (ph), we’re going to need to stop for today. I was thinking what is the adult equivalent of a time out? But I will see you next Tuesday. Okay?

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay. Take care. [00:46:01]

(PAUSE)

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