TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in. I’m just going to grab a little water. [00:01:51]

(inaudible at 2:25)

CLIENT: I was thinking over on the way here, did I—started off, I was thinking that my mom had just given me a call. That’s the thing that I had to keep forgetting to say (ph). Passover is coming up and so the next two Tuesdays are—fall on the holiday itself. [00:03:00]

THERAPIST: Mhm. The first two, last two days, is that it?

CLIENT: Exactly, yeah.

THERAPIST: Do you want me to take a look now at the schedule?

CLIENT: Sure, sure. I’ve been meaning to say that for weeks but I keep forgetting.

THERAPIST: And it’s Monday/Tuesday or Tuesday/Wednesday?

CLIENT: It’s Tuesday/Wednesday and then Monday/Tuesday.

THERAPIST: So next week is the 14th. Yeah, so it’s Tuesday/Wednesday of next week.

CLIENT: Right, so the 15th and 16th of next week, and then I think the 21st and the 22nd.

THERAPIST: What about, I could do something on Thursday, the 17th.

CLIENT: I am going to be—we’re actually going to Cleveland for Passover, so we’re flying back on the Thursday.

THERAPIST: Okay, I might be able to do something in the early afternoon on Friday. Would that work for you, or is that—

CLIENT: Yeah, tentatively put in that something on that Friday, and then I’ll just check and make sure that Karl can cover for me (ph), basically. [00:04:12]

THERAPIST: Okay, if we did it on Friday, I could do 1.

CLIENT: Yeah, so let’s put that in, and I’ll just confirm when I go home.

THERAPIST: Okay. Do you want to look at the following week, as well?

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: Alright, so it’s Monday/Tuesday. I have something Wednesday morning. Wednesday mornings aren’t good for you.

CLIENT: Yeah, I’m going to be teaching then.

THERAPIST: I actually have something on Thursday morning. I need to double check, but I think I can do an 11 o’clock on Thursday. Is that something you could do, on the 24th?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Okay, I’ll put it in. [00:05:03]

Okay, great. Go ahead and make sure (ph).

CLIENT: I’ll just confirm that via e-mail.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah, it came about (ph) because my mother called me about coming to visit and somebody who wanted to see a friend of hers, who wanted to come over there. She was just calling to check about whether it’s possible, and times. She noticed I will also be seeing some friends while I’m there. She wanted to basically confirm with me that these things would work. So while I was taking her call, I had at the back of my mind that this is one of those distinctions between how things operate with me and my mother when we’re going to Cleveland, and with Karl and Kathleen involved (ph) when we’re going to Virginia [00:06:26]

(pause, noise in background) I actually remembered at the beginning of the session to put that on silent. Sorry, my ringtone, I changed it to Genevieve (laughing).

THERAPIST: Like, is that a baby monitor?

CLIENT: (laughing) No, that’s, uh, yeah. When she started babbling, she was just babbling all the time. And I recorded it. Apparently I am very, very (inaudible at 7:03 due to laughter). But it was (pause), it just was something that struck me as being a difference, and (pause) almost to the point of making it feel different when I was mentioning it to Karl. That I had gotten the phone call, and not that it was—not that I minded it, it made me (pause)—I was just conscious of the comparison in my own mind, of what I was telling him. [00:07:56]

It struck me a little bit more because I (pause)—earlier in the week, I’d gotten two moments when (pause) I was struck by a change in Karl since we’ve started this process as well. First was Kathleen’s birthday, and so he was Skyping with her. And he had mentioned over the course of their conversation that we had friends who had just had a baby in the area. And that we went to their house for the bris on Friday. And he mentioned this, and Kathleen’s response was, I thought, such (chuckling) ambivalence (ph). Oh good, you have some advice that you can give them (ph). And, I was just frantically trying to finish an e-mail to send to my students. Thinking, ah, it’s good that I’m not on the screen right now, because I’m sure a look of pain just crossed my face. [00:09:30]

Karl’s response was very calm, but, he said, “I don’t think they need any of our advice. They’re perfectly competent on their own.” Something to that effect. It just—I had to start listening, it was very—I thought his voice and his words both sounded much more self-assured, much more confident. He has in the past, when little things come up, that he’s uneasy with, or that I know run against his grain. He just was speaking more firmly than a few days later, when he wanted to get his bike tuned up in the spring, and there were going to be additional costs with it. He was wondering if it just made more sense for him to buy a new bike instead of that. And so, he wanted to speak with his brother John, who works at a bike shop about it. Called him, and John was out, and asked Sandy (ph) to pass along a message. And she came up with one of her plans. Since Aaron was coming to visit, he should send the bike with Aaron. John can fix it up and replace the new parts, and get it back to us. It’s hard to think about, just sort of... (laughing). [00:11:32]

Why would it need to be done in Virginia? Why would it need to be done in the family? What’s the necessity for putting a lot of extra people and a lot of extra effort, and probably no savings? But, it would be done that way. And, I just cut in and said, “No, we’re not going to do that. Just please pass on my message to John, so I can speak with John about it.” Again, it was that (pause) firmness or assurance that was in there, that—(pause) authority, I’d say. Took on an ownership of this situation. I know what we’re doing here, and this is what I—I have a plan, and I know what I’m looking at. I know what makes sense to me, and I don’t—I’ve got this. [00:13:02]

One of the things that it drove (pause), it drove home to me this feeling I’ve had a couple of times, that hadn’t really quite come through, I guess. That (pause) it’s not just me. I’ve had a few moments where it’s come through. One was when I was speaking with my mother, and we’ve all been sort of feeling this way, and it’s fine, relax. You’re not crazy. We’ve all felt this. That wasn’t pleasant, but it was reassuring. The sense of not being alone. I had it with Karl before, I guess, when I was feeling so (pause) sorry for him for not having the sympathy that he didn’t have the certain experience, a certain glum (ph) relationships that I’ve had, that I don’t think he’s had in the same way. Or certain relationships that could have been tied to a certain type of warmth he never did (ph). [00:15:12]

And I think here, I was noticing that even though that’s what I’m driving towards, that kind of authority and confidence, it’s with a sense that (pause), I don’t know that we were working through it. We’ve been working together, and both been talking. We’ve both been thinking, and brainstorming, and exploring. I guess because I can only work on myself. It’s up to Karl to work on Karl. It’s up to me to work on me. We are married together, but you can’t change somebody else. It was just a moment of recognizing that. We both have—I’m not the only one who has this goal, and that he’s been, the way to put it is that he’s been working, too. He’s been making progress as well. [00:16:39]

It came up for me, when I was sitting (ph), I just—it made me feel more relaxed, when I was hearing this. When I was feeling, Oh God, again? Do we have to deal with this? And then, it was just, oh, sorry, Karl’s got it. He’s on this, it’s fine (pause). I feel like I could always rely on Karl as a partner, to work with. I trust him, I love him. We work on things together. Throughout all this, he’s never fought back or been upset that maybe things (ph) with me, but it was (pause). [00:18:30]

It’s kind of a testimony to the friend of (ph) (pause). It’s a testimony to his investment in us, and his work. But it also just—(pause) I think that I can go and do what I need to do, and Karl will go and do what he needs to do. And I can rely on that, that that will work out. [00:20:10]

(pause) I guess it just means that too many instances (ph), one of those little signs of, okay, forward motion. It was definitely a relief to feel that—to sort of have evidence that I’m not working all alone. That, sometimes I can feel like, when just focusing inward like that, that it’s—it feels a little bit like heavy work. Those reminders of what a partnership really means, shows even if I am, I know that I’m the one who can do this part of the work. [00:22:04]

Together that kind of foundation can make it easier on this part, I guess. (pause) Of course, there’s still this corner of me that felt, I guess, a little bit apologetic this morning. I was like, oh my mom’s being nice. My mom’s doing that thing, which is sort of appropriate considering this might have consequences for me, and she should talk to me about it. Sorry about that (laughing). Still that (pause) part of me, but—

THERAPIST: Sorry about what? [00:23:26]

CLIENT: Almost sorry that (pause) my mom is doing exactly that action that we’ve been trying to get Kathleen to do. That my mother’s been considerate enough to say Christina wants to come over and see us, and she’d like to see you, too, but I know that you have friends coming who are coming over, and I don’t want to step on your plans. So can we coordinate that? And is it okay with you if they come? [00:24:15]

THERAPIST: But why are you sorry for that?

CLIENT: It’s funny, there’s a kind of consciousness that—(pause) this is the—Karl and I both consider this the appropriate route. And to me (ph) it almost felt like in mentioning it, I’d be sort of flaunting, almost? But this is what we want to have happen, and this is what we think is right. And look, my mom does it. Which is, I think that’s one of those things that I know comes from in me. I sometimes have these moments when I have a difficulty, almost, in distinguishing what’s in me and what’s sort of outside. [00:26:12]

Moments when I think, do I not want to this because I actually don’t want to do it? Or because I’m reacting against something that Kathleen has proposed, or something like that. Has it gotten to me so much that I just don’t want—that it’s become a sort of negative association, or a bad memory, or something like that? And I have had moments, mostly when I’m tired, like that. I know that I have had moments where I love French, I grew up with French, my parents put us in French immersion from the time we were in kindergarten. My friends (ph) are in a bilingual province, and I love it. And I love French songs. But the emphasis that Kathleen has put on that has sometimes made me almost want to—there are a lot of French songs that I really love, and I’ve almost sometimes wanted to stop singing a song if Kathleen sort of creeps into my mind while I’m singing to Genevieve in French. I’ll sort of want to stop it, you know? All her plans, and her pushiness, that Genevieve would have to be some kind of genius baby. Sort of make me want to stop doing something that, by nature, I would love to do. And, I get that moment (ph) where I sort of, that I described before. I get this kind of confusion. Well, am I doing this because I want to, or I don’t—well, let’s do that. Just that confusion about what exactly is my motivation here. [00:28:41]

(pause) Sorry, I forgot the train of where I was coming from. (pause) I think that I was sort of (pause), I guess it’s kind of a similar type of confusion, where it felt like (pause) well, of course I need to tell Karl what’s going on. And Karl himself remarked that he thinks that he would be fine with seeing these friends of his parents in Virginia And perhaps some of the people are people he would really like to see, but only if he really wants to see them, if they see him in advance (ph). Only if it’s coordinated in advance, so it’s not happening at an inconvenient time, like when Genevieve needs to be going to bed, and preparing to leave. At the same time, it’s that, you know, Tammy, you should really be more sensitive. You don’t want to make Karl feel bad. He’s got enough of how this is going. It’s that same kind of, sort of, questioning of the motivation. That sort of, what we’ve been talking about these past couple of sessions. If you really looked into yourself, would you really like what you see, if you looked at who you are, Tammy? [00:31:06]

THERAPIST: Would you?

CLIENT: I think it’s probably okay (laughing). I think it’s (pause), I’d probably see somebody who has very strong attachments to family and friends. Very strong attachments in general, also to places, and fairly shy. Kind of dorky. But (pause), lots of, sort of, at home interests. A very domestic person. [00:32:27]

(pause) That sounds okay to me. More wool (ph) than the average person owns, probably. (pause) I don’t think there’s anything really all that awful. (pause) I was going to say, a while ago, I don’t remember exactly when. A while ago, it must have been before the course began, or I wouldn’t have had time. I was looking at C.S. Lewis’s letters again. This was one of the books of his own that he liked the least. The Letters are a series of letters, who was sort of an upper-ranking demon in hell to his nephew, who is starting out as a tempter, describing how he has to work in snagging the soul of the person he’s tempting, to secure it for hell. And it’s interesting in the understanding of how C.S. Lewis understands some of the potential downfalls of the human mind. [00:35:00]

One of the things he notes is that there can be—one of the means that he comes up with for his nephew is to get the—he refers to him as the patient—to focus on his failings. To magnify them, to sort of say that it can multiply, it can sort of snowball. I was prideful of about this, whether my focus and worry, and sort of mull (ph) over it, can magnify itself. Of course, you know, he’s relating it back to the Catholic doctrine of the deadly sins. He had even classified that as a type of pride. I am so aware of my own sinfulness, but what struck me in there was that it was a, kind of, he described it as, because he was looking at it from the demon’s perspective, describing it as a kind of torture he could inflict, which would then be pleasurable to the demon in C.S. Lewis’s imagination. Sort of focusing in on that, causing the mind to revolve on this excess of turning the ordinary incidents or glasses (ph) become evil through being looked at in an evil way. [00:37:34]

It struck me as just being a very—it rang with me, I guess, because to me it felt like a very true description of what happens when you do end up anxiously analyzing your every motivation. Was that insensitive? Was that prideful? Was that? Sort of involved in that wonder (ph). There is that kind of element of self-torture that’s in there. [00:38:33]

It would almost be nice, sometimes, I think to be able to pass that off as, well, oh there’s this malignant outside force which is doing it, and I just have to kick it out. (pause) It’s one of those things, though, that I can tell, I can see. (pause) That’s something that I know is shared, or perhaps imitated from Leah. That’s exactly her type of—I have a sharp (ph) with mommy? Then that means I am a terrible daughter. I don’t get that to the same extent. Definitely not with the relationship with my parents. [00:40:40]

(phone ringing in background, so certain words inaudible) You know, with my parents, I’m just (inaudible at 00:40:53), it’s not something that Leah definitely has that with daddy. I’m much more liable to have that with her.

THERAPIST: With Leah?

CLIENT: Yeah. Maybe when they’re not quite the same, I’d be more likely (ph) to be frustrated or something, or concerned about. I can definitely end up being concerned about things with Leah. I mentioned how my mother remarked that from the time we were little, she’d say I was very protective of her. I’m not quite sure what that meant when we were little. [00:41:56]

(pause) But there’s definitely some good old lessons (ph) that she knew what was right and I would (pause) try to fall in with that, fall in line with that. [00:42:35]

(pause) How it came to be that there would be this presence of focusing on or magnifying these types of self-doubt or negative ideas of my own actions or motivations, or you know, whatever. What track that took, I’m not sure. [00:43:33]

Academically, it would definitely be—and sorry, I recognize that academically that’s the easiest place to see it, and Leah looking back. By (ph) and school. [00:44:19]

THERAPIST: Tammy, I know you’re kind of thinking about something, we’re going to unfortunately need to stop for today. Just e-mail at some point to confirm about next Friday. I hope you have a good trip to Cleveland and (crosstalk at 00:44:40).

CLIENT: Thank you very much.

THERAPIST: Okay, take care.

END TRANSCRIPT