TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi. I’ll be with you in just another minute. Hi, come on in. Hi. [00:02:32]

CLIENT: Hi. So, I was obviously away for the first few days of Passover. We went to Cleveland, which was very nice. I haven’t yeah, so I haven’t been there in a whole year and the last time I was there was actually for a conference, it wasn’t… So it was just a few days and I didn’t get to see as much of people. Of course, this time, since it was for a holiday, I also didn’t get to see everybody I really wanted to, but we were able to we were able to spend about a week there, which was very nice. We spent a lot of time working still, we’re grad students, but it was a longer time. Genevieve really enjoyed it too, which was nice. She had a lot of space to move around and she was happy, so. Just, it was very nice. [00:03:54]

We arrived home and we knew that our upstairs neighbors had been the neighbor who used to live upstairs, Marsha, she actually sold her place and has moved to a bigger home. We’re very happy for her and very sorry for us, because we really enjoyed having her as a neighbor. And the new owner had decided to have some bathroom renovations, and he’s been talking to us about it, because they both like to the contractors would need access to our bathroom, to make some so that they could run a pipe through. Tim got that and approved it, so obviously kept in touch with us and told us what was going to be happening. In the end, they were going to need to have access while we were going to be in Cleveland, which didn’t really please us, but they were going to need access to our downstairs neighbors, Ted and Joanne, at the same time, and Ted and Joanne do have a key to our place. We’ve known them for a while now and since they were our understanding was that they were going to be doing the same things in either apartment. We said to communicate with Ted and Joanne and if anything was wait until we arrived home, we can get through them. Or, if anything, there was going to be an expansion or anything, to the plan. Yesterday, I walk in and not only is there the hole in the ceiling, which is actually about a third of the bathroom ceiling, but our bedroom furniture is reorganized so that there could be a hole in our bedroom wall, apparently. So, that was a little bit of a surprise. [00:06:30]

So we sent fortunately, we came in before the plumbers had left, because we had I had sent an e-mail about when we were going to be back, to the people, to just make sure that they’re not in our apartment when we came back, because we would be arriving back and we would probably be cranky and whatnot, so we can go to bed. Basically, we didn’t want people to be in our house when we arrived back from the trip. Fortunately, that information had not been communicated because otherwise, well, that information hadn’t been communicated, so they were there and we were able to tell them to basically clear things up and to move our furniture back; otherwise, we would have had it was such a huge mess, it wouldn’t have been livable through the night before they came back. Well, then spending some a certain amount of time until I have a fit. [00:08:00]

Basically, our downstairs neighbors, they decided they didn’t need to actually do anything downstairs, so our downstairs neighbors thought that nothing was really going to be going on in our place. And our upstairs neighbor said basically he doesn’t know anything about what’s been going on. He isn’t moving in until the renovations are complete, so he didn’t know what was going on, and the contractor didn’t feel the need to tell him this and he’s very upset with the contractor. Now, the plumbers are just doing the work the contractor told them to, but the contractor says that the plumbers have been going far beyond the work that they while they were on the job, sort of did what they thought was necessary without clearing it with him. And so (pause) who knows? (laughs) How ever it happened, it happened. It was rather unpleasant yesterday and they’re still… Karl encouraged them very firmly, to finish up what they need to do in our place today and be done with it, because the last few days (inaudible). [00:09:40]

I actually don’t think that we have any paint. There are two very, very small ends of paint for that we are not sure which one is the color for the bedroom. It looks like they were probably samples that were gotten when they were choosing a color, because they’re fairly similar, and we don’t know which one is the actual one, and I don’t think there’s enough of either one to, when they patch up the bedroom, to do it. So, I don’t actually like the color in the bedroom anyway, so I wouldn’t want to maybe we can get a new bedroom color out of this. That was just a slightly stressful homecoming. I don’t deal particularly well with mess and noise. At the best of times, it feels like it’s just sort of -

THERAPIST: Intruded upon. [00:10:52]

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. It’s completely intrusive, it was totally unacceptable and I was looking around and Karl was saying oh, we should have locked our bedroom door, and I’m thinking, why would we have to lock our bedroom door normally, when we leave? Why would we even think about that? (pause) What I’m wondering, thinking back, is whether this is the sort of situation where we really ought to have said, no you’re just not going to be able to do anything involving our apartment until we’re back, or is it a situation where obviously, it’s hindsight, or is it a situation where it’s just while we were hoping that it would mean that it was… What we were hoping at the time was that it would mean that whatever small mess, it will just be over and done with by the time we came back and I was thinking of Genevieve, that she does not like that sort of noise any more than I do. It would be just better to have it going on when we’re gone, over with and done. I know the next time I would be more careful, but we certainly thought we were informed about what was going on. It’s done and we’ve definitely made ourselves very clear about what’s appropriate with this sort of thing. I haven’t heard back from the contractor about what he’s going to be doing, but we… (pause) [00:13:44]

The neighbor upstairs has never really dealt with construction work or renovations of any kind before, I get that impression very strongly. And I don’t think he knows that it’s really better to stay more on top of things, talk frequently, come over and see what’s going on, especially if it’s involving somebody else’s place. So I think this is probably something of a learning curve for him as well. It’s definitely for us. (pause) [00:15:01]

It’s just been upward work, right up it feels like it’s been. It was right up until we left, it was very, I was working particularly hard to try to get as much of my work done as possible before we left. We had to clean our place for Passover of course and then on the morning that we were going to the airport, Karl got a call from the FBI, because his friend was getting needed security clearance for a job and listed him as a reference, and the FBI agent needed to come over to interview Karl about his friend, but that’s a problem. Sorry, I’m going to be leaving for a week. Karl said he seemed very annoyed, said well, I guess I’m just going to have to come over right away. (laughs) That was about ten and we had to get into a cab at one to get to the airport, and still hadn’t finished with our cleaning and hadn’t packed. I think that so, I mean obviously, we got through it all and got there and minus only a number of things, but we were going to my parents’ house, they have stuff. So it was just it feels like we left and came back into chaos, I think is what I’ve been feeling. [00:17:28]

THERAPIST: And people taking liberties with your time and your space.

CLIENT: Right. (pause) And of course, that tends to hit me right in the right in the, um… (pause) Like I’ve just been looking around with sort of feeling half crazed today and yesterday, shrieking things like, “They’re touching my stuff!” (gasps)

THERAPIST: Meaning present tense? [00:18:37]

CLIENT: Yeah, the workers. (pause) They aren’t out just yet. Karl walked over with them here, so that we could actually talk about what was going on, and we were deciding that we just are going to have to be out today because we’re going into Shabbat. The men just have to coordinate a time with us for when they’re going to fix things up and figure out how to fix things up. So it’s again, we aren’t really sure that the state of the bedroom, that’s not something we’ve obviously thought about before, so. (pause) [00:19:58]

It’s funny, I’m not I don’t think of myself as being a particularly materialistic person, the sort of person who wants things or needs to get. I don’t mind much about (pause) I don’t really hanker after stuff and it’s not the sort of thing that goes to make me happy, but I was noticing when I went home, how I am very attached to certain things. I do get attached to places, attached to certain things. I guess I have a sort of conservative streak in some ways and I have things gain value with me over time. I loved going back to see my room, to see my books, my dolls. You know, I haven’t played with my porcelain dolls for a long time, but my dolls and doll sets are things that, it made me so happy to see them again. Bring my books over. Each time I go, I bring more books over with me. Of course, my mother would love to see my room cleaned out, but and I do more of that each time I go over also but… But there is something that feels extremely secure about that old bedroom of mine. It’s the first one I had that we moved a number of times, which (inaudible) another house in Cleveland before my heart settled there. This is the first one I had that I got a chance to sort of make into mine, make a nest for myself, make choices about it. I helped my dad with painting it and putting up the border and making the bookcases, choosing the furniture. And I find a certain kind of security in that space and I loved making my parents got a crib and put it in there, and I loved putting Genevieve to bed in that little crib. It felt very lovely. There is something about the contrast between that and coming back into crazy house, that just it’s such a violent kind of a contrast.

[PAUSE: 00:23:49 to 00:24:32]

It’s also interesting to think about I was just thinking about, as I was talking about making that bedroom and comparing that bedroom in Cleveland, how when Karl and I bought this house, this apartment, we looked around and made certain choices about which rooms really needed a certain amount of work. When Genevieve came, we spent a certain amount of time in preparing her room for her and we spent some time, some time and money, improving the dining room. And there was another room which needed a certain amount, but it’s funny, we never did think about doing anything to make the bedroom a nice space. I don’t know whether it’s a change between childhood, where your bedroom is your little space because the house is your parents’ and for me, I always spent so much time alone in that room doing my reading and so on, that that needed to be my safe space. And whether it’s growing up and the whole apartment is ours and the one room we never really thought about making it be nicer really. We sort of vaguely threw out ideas about it. Maybe we could put a picture on the wall, but not improving the furniture or repainting it from a color that both of us hate, until somebody else came and cut a hole in the wall (laughs) that sort of thought oh, maybe that could be, just the least they could do is repaint it in a color that we actually like, since we don’t have any of that color to patch it up. [00:26:55]

It’s kind of a funny thing, to think about that attachment to… How I, thinking about myself, and how I’ve got that type of I form these strong attachments and I also tend to feel very strongly when something comes in, when something sort of breaks up that security or peace.

THERAPIST: And the sense of feeling violated. [00:28:17]

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: Which is how you came to therapy, with the story about neighbors who were looking in on you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And watching you.

CLIENT: I’ve been thinking about that these past two days. I remember how one of the things that I said then was how even, when I was undressing in my bedroom, I felt like I was, you know, just totally out of sight, but I felt an embarrassment that somebody might be looking at me. Then in the bathroom, I felt sort of insecure, I think, and I don’t remember exactly what I said, but I remember feeling that (pause) and in a way it sort of feels like an extension of that. (pause) That I have the you know, when you realize that had you not realized that, that my house is not your house basically, that this is that if you want to do something in here you ask first. You don’t perceive beyond what we’ve discussed. [00:31:01]

On the one hand, I probably should have asked Ted and Joanne to keep an eye on what was going on more closely, but at the same time, we had certainly been told that basically what was going to be happening in one place would be happening in the other. So, it seemed pretty… (pause) Whatever did happen, you know, it’s nothing that we can’t take care of in terms of our actual apartment and getting things back in order and all of that. I’m perfectly sure that our neighbor is going to make sure that all of that gets fixed up. But it’s that sense of (pause) that jarring feeling that something that you don’t think could happen, or at least that you don’t think could happen in a home space, that it could happen. That feeling that my bedroom at home is unchangeable and unchanging, there’s just no way that in Cleveland, that it could be altered except of course, you know, there’s that doesn’t bother me, but it sort of feels like it’s a continuation or, you know, it feels appropriate, but there is that if my parents hauled off and painted it pink, I would be so shocked, you know, that how could that but of course, even though it is their space. (pause) [00:34:31]

And, even in my parents’ house, the summer that Genevieve was born, there was that terrible flooding in Cleveland and our basement was sort of destroyed, and they’ve had to get it gradually getting it redone. In that process, my mom lost a huge number of the children’s books that she used to work with and saved, and had been saving down there, and they were destroyed. Not to mention my father’s old books as well, oh, and some major appliances that were down there, but I guess I just think about the books first. But, you know, the idea that it wasn’t neighbors, it was nature and that happens, but I think there’s a sense that that I certainly was shocked just feeling that this shouldn’t happen. It happened other places, other things, but um… (pause) Even there, I had sure, it was destructive, it happened and was lots of things I was attached to, books I was attached to disappeared. It’s that feeling that it was impartial I guess, it was nature, that happens.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [00:36:49]

CLIENT: There’s nothing you can do about that. What makes I tend to have a feeling, the sort of thinks that’s sort of shouldn’t they know better? And… (pause) That’s where the I think that’s where it’s people, human beings, that I… (pause) [00:37:57]

I think that as soon as it’s people, it starts to feel personal about it. I know perfectly well that it wasn’t. You know, there are people who are looking at the pipes in the walls. They weren’t looking and saying oh, well, you know, I’m going to target you. But there’s a feeling where well, for heaven sakes, I could have been downstairs and they would have been around and it could have been discussed and come to a halt, but (breathes in) I guess it was, it just, it could take off in that way, and that’s where the sort of… (pause) It’s harder to feel personally attacked by a rainstorm. [00:40:00]

THERAPIST: Is that what it feels like with Kathleen?

CLIENT: A personal attack?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause)

CLIENT: Sometimes. Not always but sometimes it does feel like sometimes it feels so difficult to communicate when it feels impersonal, like there isn’t anybody there. But sometimes it does feel certainly, when she when she was speaking to my mother, it definitely felt that way. At one point she asked Karl about my mental health and she asked him whether I have any whether I get depressed. That definitely. That certainly was such a personal question that it felt, that certain question, invasive question, that it felt very personal, very judgmental. No, it wasn’t, I don’t know it was I asked Karl whether he thought that it was out of personal concern or whether it was or whether he knew what her feels about mental health were. He said he didn’t know. But I certainly felt extremely, very much like it was a personal judgment or an attack of some kind. [00:42:29]

I occasionally feel I’m being singled I often feel, when I’m there, that I’m being singled out. (pause) And that definitely feels that sort of act of being singled out can make me feel like I’m separated, so anything that happens is sort of directed. (pause) It’s not quite the same sense of personal attack as say with the people next door, when the woman next door were looking in at us over last summer, and various other things, kind of yelled at me in the streets. That definitely felt like a personal attack, because there are three levels in the building and we’re the ones they were choosing to sort of peer through the windows and attack us in this way. (pause) There was a point over the winter when they were shining lasers through our we keep the blinds down now, for obvious reasons. They were shining lasers through, laser pointers through it. At that point we called the police, to talk about that, talk on the record. So that does feel sort of… (pause) [00:46:03]

I think the construction one, it’s easier to sort of create a bit of a to make more of a distinction between us and it, because you can see, there’s this visible, tangible work and you can see how they are just, you know, trying to do the job. But I think there it’s more of a case of, the feeling I have when I look at it, okay, but is our space not worth considering, are we not worth considering as you do this?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. We’re going to need to leave it at that for today.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: So, I will see you next Thursday. We have, right, we switched.

CLIENT: Did we move them again?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think so, let me double check. I just want to make sure, because we switched next Tuesday. Okay, that’s the 24th. Yeah, I have you at 11:00 a.m. I look forward to seeing you then, take care. Have a good last few days of Passover. [00:47:51]

CLIENT: Yes, thank you.

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