TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: 18.

CLIENT: To the 25th?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Right.

CLIENT: I’ll make just a quick note of that so I don’t forget. (pause) Note occupy. (pause) And let me just write you a check for last week too. You said—was it—you said $97?

THERAPIST: Yeah. $97.25.

CLIENT: $97.25. (pause)

THERAPIST: So, what were you—you and you had a missed class too? Last week, huh?

CLIENT: Yeah. I didn’t go in last week.

THERAPIST: Oh, boy.

CLIENT: I just felt—I don’t know. I just felt like shit. I just didn’t want to do anything. I just couldn’t get out of the house. Oh, man. I was just—yeah.

THERAPIST: How long did it take you to—

CLIENT: (pause) I stayed home most of the weekend. I just didn’t even really—I didn’t really do anything which felt kind of good. Yeah. [inaudible 00:01:12]. I apologize for that though.

THERAPIST: (pause) How have you—

CLIENT: I’ve been good. Yeah. I feel like my Fridays of all my poor health has been falling on Fridays. Is it the day today? 15? 16?

THERAPIST: 18th.

CLIENT: (pause) All right. (pause) Okay.

THERAPIST: Cool. Thank you. (pause) [00:02:08]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Just busy you know. So, this was the last full week of classes. And then I think we have classes until—we have no class on Monday. And then I think we just have classes Tuesday and Wednesday. And then I think we have finals. So, not actually bad that. We won’t actually be—I think if there was any week that would probably be the time that I’d be—it’ll be like during the reading period probably.

THERAPIST: Okay. That’s—oh, yeah. You do the reading period and then what do you hit?

CLIENT: I think we only have—I think we have like no class Friday and then we have no class Monday. And then the exam starts. So, it’s going to be like a long weekend. It’s not even like a proper reading period. Yeah. And then exams. And then I’ll be done. [00:03:06]

THERAPIST: Then you’ll be done. Yeah.

CLIENT: Laney is going to be going to Leon for a week.

THERAPIST: Leon, huh?

CLIENT: Yeah. She’s going to go see a friend of hers. So, she’ll be leaving on Wednesday. (pause) So, it’ll be me and the cat.

THERAPIST: You and the cat.

CLIENT: Me and the cat. And it falls on a good time actually. So, I’m pretty—I’ll be pretty busy studying and stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah. How does that seem to you that her being away?

CLIENT: I’m happy for her. I’m really happy for her. (pause) She works hard, you know? (pause) I often wish she had the opportunity to do more stuff like that. You know what I mean? So, it’s kind of weird saying it. But like I feel like sometimes because I’m in school and—it maybe makes me unable and by extension her kind of unable to do more kind of stuff like that too. You know what I mean? So, it makes me happy that she’s doing it. [00:04:12]

THERAPIST: She’s getting out and doing that. Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean she works a lot, you know? She just kind of goes to work and comes home. She doesn’t get a lot of time to do things for herself. And it makes me genuinely happy. Like there’s no jealousy or anything like—I’m just genuinely happy that she’s going to get to do something fun. And I’m also happy that she’s not going to be around while I have to do my studying because it’ll just make things easier.

THERAPIST: Well, yeah. I was thinking about that.

CLIENT: (crosstalk 00:04:40) focus on the studies and stuff.

THERAPIST: Well, yeah. And it seems to like some of the stuff we’ve been talking about with like how you being in school and like how—you know, how intense an experience it can be and then how it can lead to, like, the occasional feeling like, “God, I need to be—I need to—it’d be great to have some alone time.” But wondering about this, like, kind of this psychic hops, like, it takes on her. On, you know—what’s it doing to Laney? What’s it doing to Laney to be in a relationship with a guy who’s in school occupied with stuff? And occasionally wants to have time to himself to—you know, or might want or might need it.

CLIENT: There’s not even enough time for myself. I guess when I hear it that it doesn’t even—I mean it’s just kind of school. I mean (crosstalk 00:05:30). I don’t know. I guess when I just hear it that way. Like—

THERAPIST: Don’t cast me as that guy.

CLIENT: Yeah. Sort of. I guess. I mean I guess I—

THERAPIST: I hear you. I mean like that is the spirit in which I meant it but yeah. Hear the other side. Don’t cast me as that guy, right?

CLIENT: Right. Yeah. (pause) Yeah. So, that—there’ll be a bit of a relief in terms of the tension. It will be nice. That will be nice. It’s her birthday. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. I just thought of that. I’m not even doing any work today. We’re going to just—we’re going to just hang out and maybe go for a little shop and get some stuff for her for her trip and everything. So, that will be nice.

THERAPIST: So, she leaves for—when is she leaving?

CLIENT: Wednesday night.

THERAPIST: Wednesday night.

CLIENT: She planned the trip awhile ago. (pause) It’ll be her first kind of trip going by herself overseas, so she’s awfully nervous. But she’s very excited.

THERAPIST: Does she know any French?

CLIENT: She doesn’t know any French. She has a very good friend from China who studied abroad in Providence. And she met her. They were both studying in Providence. And her friend left Providence and is now living in Leon. So, she’s going to—she’s going to go stay with her. She’ll have someone in the city who speaks French and a place to stay for free, so.

THERAPIST: That’s great.

CLIENT: Yeah. It’ll be good. It’ll be good. It’ll be good.

THERAPIST: How old is she again?

CLIENT: 24.

THERAPIST: 24. Okay. Yeah. So, first trip overseas more or less by herself. Yeah. Okay.

CLIENT: (pause) It’ll be good. It’ll be good. (pause) Yeah. And I’ll be doing finals. Just eager to get done with them. I don’t feel that nervous about them. I feel a little nervous about them. Not really that nervous I don’t think. I was thinking about it on the way here. I guess—because I having this—it just kind of popped into my head randomly. But I was speaking with Kaley (ph) a week or two ago and we hadn’t had a lot of opportunities to kind of just talk about stuff since I got into school. I was just telling her about it. [00:07:59] (pause)

And I’m trying to remember the way that I put it to her because it kind of—when I said it out loud, I kind of thought to myself, “Oh, wow. I never really thought of it that way.” But yeah. I told her I had really good professors. I think they’re all really great. I’m not close with any of them. I don’t have a close relationship with any of them. And, okay. I remember now. We were talking about the—just the adjustment. You know, like—that I felt like I was kind of in a bit more of a flow or a bit more comfortable in school. And initially there was kind of some stuff that I had to try to get used to. And one of the things was, like, talking about my relationships with my professors that I was very used to the fact that when I was in undergrad I was very close with my professors. That was a huge part of the experience.

And try to get used to that in school. And that’s—I think they’re all very nice professors. They’re very nice people, but I’m not very close with any of them. And that was a little bit difficult at first, but I’m kind of more comfortable with that now. And I think I also explained to her that I don’t feel a need for them to want to really, really, really like me. On the one hand. And I’ve also kind of come to the conclusion that I don’t really even know that I would want a close relationship with some of them, you know. I don’t even know that I would want to become close with any of them. (pause) It seemed like kind of a big deal when I said it out loud. In my head, I was like, “Oh, wow. That’s kind of interesting.”

THERAPIST: What did you hear? Yeah. What did you hear in it?

CLIENT: Well, I mean I guess I—it just made me realize that I—early in the semester I think I just kind of wanted—early in my first semester I just wanted to have just kind of, like, a really close relationship with some of my professors even though I didn’t really consider the fact that I don’t really think I particularly like some of them, you know?

THERAPIST: I got you.

CLIENT: And I was like, “Oh, man. (inaudible 00:10:16) just seemed kind of like really—I guess I’m just thinking about it, you know. When I can say that I’m kind of relaxed going into finals. Just kind of thinking about just kind of the general kind of dynamics there and everything. I mean it just seemed really interesting when I said it to Kaley (ph). It seemed that—like the first time I’d really considered it that way. I felt—you know, there was something that I kind of stumbled upon, but I felt kind of good thinking that way. And on the way here, I was just kind of thinking about it again. Like I think that one of the things that I’ve learned in school up to this point at least is—not learn but I’ve developed a (pause)—an ability to just not really care what my professors think about me too much. You know what I mean? [00:11:15]

THERAPIST: No. I get the spirit of it. Yeah. Yes.

CLIENT: I guess it just sounds so simple. But it—

THERAPIST: No. No. No. I mean—well, what I sensed is that, like, that it was not just—for you, I never got the impression that being liked by the—carried the connotation of wanting to be—wanting to have some state of, like—that you were really—you really enjoyed being—because you enjoyed being liked by them as much as it felt like a responsibility. Almost like I need this person to like me or I’m not going to feel right about it, you know? As opposed to being like—wanting to be the good—a good student for its own sake or liked for its own sake. It had much more to do with something about I got to be on the right side of this. I had the feeling at least that—(pause) [00:12:12]

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It wasn’t connected to some—it was very just like upholstery almost. It didn’t—it—

THERAPIST: It wasn’t about I like to be the best and I really strive for to be—a number one in the class. And that’s the—you know? Like some people might have motives to do that, but I didn’t seem to sense that was it for you. It had—it sounds like it had more to do with (pause) something about being on the right side of things. Or—well, I don’t know. I don’t know how you put it. (crosstalk 00:12:48).

CLIENT: I don’t really know how I would put it. I mean I guess it—I think at the—it might have just been (pause) feeling like I wasn’t good—almost more kind of like the—I don’t know if this makes sense. But (pause) maybe more like—feeling like I wasn’t in a position where I like didn’t care if they liked me or not or something. It was almost more uncomfortable at that—that way approach than the (inaudible 00:13:17). Yeah. I don’t really know. But I mean, again, today I was thinking about it when I was coming here just because of my (inaudible 00:13:22) professor this semester is—he’s—he can just be (chuckles) like a real hassle sometimes. And that’s just the way he is. And he’s not really unique by way of professors in that sense.

THERAPIST: Yeah. They’re not there for their sunny disposition.

CLIENT: No. I mean particularly this one. He’s like on his last semester. He’s about to retire. He’s on his way out. He’s (pause)—yeah. He’s not the most sensitive of professors. But (pause) I don’t know. I guess it just kind of occurred to me when I was walking over here that (pause)—I genuinely just really don’t care I guess. Like particularly like my professor, I guess. Because like when I came into school and I was like trying to figure out like who was going to be like, you know, my Kaley (ph) here. Who’s going to be like the professor that like, you know, I—who is like my mentor? And that I can recreate that dynamic with. You know what I mean?

Because it was just kind of what I do really well. I kind of thought about maybe my professor because that’s what I want to do for work. I looked at his publications. He seems really interesting. He seems—you know he has his history as a public defender. And I think overall he’s a very kind of principled person. (pause) Initially, I thought that’s kind of what I was hoping maybe would happen. But (pause) yeah. [00:15:05]

I guess I don’t really—I just seem to have totally (pause) kind of just lost that feeling of urgency, you know? I (pause) just genuinely don’t really care what he thinks about me, you know? (pause) Yeah. And I guess that just feels like a very different type of thing for me to do. You know what I mean? Just totally new to me, I guess, you know? It’s (pause)—yeah. [00:16:00]

THERAPIST: Well, let’s be—is it a fairly—do you notice it as a fairly large relief? Or is it not really like the—

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I—yeah. I mean it—yeah. Just to be clear. And all of this is I think—yeah. I really believe in and feel really relaxing type of thing, you know. I think it (pause)—yeah. I think it contributes to maybe me being kind of surprisingly relaxed like going into something like finals. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That meaning of, like, finals like—you know, I remember how much, you know, your final thesis for, you know, college was so—it wasn’t just the work you were working on. It was so much that it was intertwined with Kaley (ph). And, you know? [00:17:03]

CLIENT: Absolutely. And then that’s exactly it. Like that’s exactly what I’m kind of putting it up next to, you know? Because in a way like this is quantitatively and probably qualitatively a bit more demanding even. You know what I mean? It just seems odd to me that—I guess you’d think that corresponding with it—I would be even more kind of a nervous wreck going into it, you know? But I’m not. And (pause) it seems kind of—it seems like an obvious conclusion that it probably is something to do with that, you know?

THERAPIST: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: That I don’t really care. (pause) Yeah. It makes me feel more like a (pause)—when I said it—when I told Kaley (ph) that and I was kind of like surprised by the fact that I felt like that’s kind of where I found myself now. The way she put it was (pause)—she said she thought I was like coming into myself. [00:18:13]

THERAPIST: How did that sound? What did it sound like to you?

CLIENT: (pause) I mean it’s like the type of thing if anyone else said it to me it would have felt very paternalistic. But it didn’t from Kaley (ph). Particularly because I think with Kaley I’m still in that mindset. And like if she thinks I’m going into myself then it’s like really great. You know what I mean? (laughter) (pause) But (pause) it made me feel good I think because it made me—I said it out loud. I (pause) initially, what came to my mind was like exactly what I think always kind of worries about doing it. I guess just approaching things like that was—if that meant—like if that was a bad thing to do. To not really care what people would—you know? Like if that’s just not—if that’s selfish or something. If that’s not being considerate to not really care what people think about me. You know what I mean? It was interesting to hear her say that. I was like—it was really reaffirming because I guess it was well timed in that sense, I guess. [00:19:28]

THERAPIST: No. It’s funny because as you’ve been putting it (pause) there’s like a—the way you’ve been talking about it is I don’t care about what other people think. I was thinking that I was wondering how—what the feeling behind it is too. That’s to say that like I was wondering if there’s almost a way you talk about it as if you feel—does it at all feel to you like that means you’re being dismissive or something? Or in the sense oh I don’t care what they think? You know how people have that kind of way of saying it.

CLIENT: Well, yeah. And, you know, saying it a loud and hearing it like I don’t care what they think—like I—in a way I feel like that is totally the wrong way to put it or something which is something that comes to my mind. But yeah. It’s like that approach in itself—like what if I took that approach with Laney? That would be horrible. Like that would—you—how—I couldn’t take that—you know what I mean? We couldn’t be together if I didn’t care what she—you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: It’s obviously complicated.

CLIENT: It’s obviously not the right approach to take, you know, in situations like that, right? Like with your friends. Like you’d never want to realize that that’s actually like your (pause), you know—your way of doing of things, you know? [00:21:11]

THERAPIST: I got it.

CLIENT: Like if I realized that a friend of mine actually didn’t really care what I thought I would be, “Oh, wow.” You know what I mean? “We’re not as close as I thought.” You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. And exactly like it’s called—well, exactly what does that mean? Does that—it’s almost as if you’re sort of saying it carries a kind of a kind of a meaning of it meaning that it’s very impersonal then if you don’t care what they think.

CLIENT: It hurt—it would be like hurtful. It would be—you know what I mean? To someone that I’m close with. And I mean I guess like in my mind, I guess I can sort of see maybe where my mind goes with it. Like it seems logical that that would be hurtful, you know, towards somebody else too. You know what I mean? Or at least not— [00:21:56]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. And then it can kind of feel like am I being—you know, like does this mean I’m dismissive? Does this mean I’m—it’s an impersonal kind of not caring what they think? What does that stand for? What kind of attitude does that stand for? What’s funny is that I didn’t see—at least with the school professors, I heard you saying it in the tone of like I don’t care in my mind what they think of me in a particular way. I didn’t hear it as like that means I don’t care what their minds are like or what they—if they have an impression of my work or not. I’m sure it’s—in fact, I imagine you do. Like there is still a part of you that goes, “Well, I want to know what the grade is. These are the professors. I want to—they might have something to say about my work.” What I’m sensing though, it’s like it’s not them kind of—them being a voice in your head that’s kind of like an important facet of why you’re doing the work you’re doing. I mean it’s a hard way to— [00:23:20]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I mean the way that it was with Kaley (ph), right? It was almost always this kind of like weird fusion between the two. You know what I mean? Where (pause) there was no kind of like real meaningful extension between the two of us. And then, yeah. Absolutely. In that sense. You know what? One difference definitely feels that I feel there is something beyond my experience with these professors. You know, what do I want to do which the idea of kind of like a stepping stone. They are not the—they’re not the end of the line here or something, you know. But I mean also— [00:24:06]

THERAPIST: That’s right. That’s right.

CLIENT: It was nothing. There was no other—like the only thing I was ever trying to accomplish I felt like with my thesis was (pause) to write a thesis for my undergrad. I knew that that was like a really new thing for her. You know, that she did not have (inaudible) do that. And I wanted to be special to her. I mean it was very evident to me. You know, like it wasn’t to do it and then to use it as like a stepping stone to get to grad school. I mean there’s no anything about that. You know what I mean? But I mean like the other thing too is like I felt like there was—just that sense of doom of like failure that came. Like for some reason like in my mind, it was very evident to me that it was like—there was like nothing worse in the world than not accomplishing that. Nothing. Like nothing was going to be worse. The sacrifice. You know what I mean? In my head, it seemed that kind of like important. And that type of—that’s not the dynamic here, you know? (pause) Which obviously feels (chuckles) kind of nice, you know? [00:25:22]

THERAPIST: Yeah. You know that—and one thing I’m thinking, Geoffrey, is like how much—God. You know your mother comes to mind to me in situations like this around your feelings of—is she being—how is she an issue being thought of enough? The kind of the carefulness with which you kind of really—you’ve taken with her and the—in contrast with how you—I think you saw your dad who seemed to quote—you know, not going care what she thinks—which led to all this kind of real—a real sense of—a real feeling of like hurt and almost in the description a sense of like a kind of psychological abandonment. And (pause), you know, so—I mean just to say that all this stuff is so— [00:26:30]

CLIENT: I see that. You know, I see that distinction.

THERAPIST: It’s so complicated.

CLIENT: But in a way I feel like I am doing something akin to that approach (crosstalk 00:26:43) with my dad with my professors. And I guess the things that come to mind is like I know that could be hurtful in some situations. I think. (pause) I know I don’t want to do that, but I’m doing it. It actually feels kind of good which is a little like terrifying. And it’s like—let’s assume then that there’s that—it actually can be something that isn’t—maybe it’s not per se an evil thing to do. But how do you draw those lines? You know what I mean? How do I know? You never take it up with Kaley (ph) obviously, you know. And I guess like when I said it out loud to her, I was like, “Oh, God. I hope,”—when I said it out loud, I was thinking in my head like, “Oh, wow. I feel like for a long time I actually didn’t even want to let you know I was capable of not caring what professors thought of me,” or something. You know what I mean? So, I mean that’s—I don’t know. I guess it’s like—

THERAPIST: It must have been a relief then to hear her say you’re coming into your own. [00:28:02]

CLIENT: In a way, yeah.

THERAPIST: As opposed to interpreting it along the lines of, “Well, what does that mean? You don’t care about what anybody thinks?”

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean that’s exactly why I feel like she made a comment about—I was like—it was actually really well timed because it—like it immediately kind of reacted to what I think would have left me feeling really a little more comfortable afterwards. But (pause) yeah. No. I think that that has a lot to do with it, you know? (pause)

THERAPIST: It would be some—me being careful with my mom? [00:29:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. I feel like I’m very careful with her. I feel like I’m kind of hurtful to her.

THERAPIST: (pause) Yeah. What do you think?

CLIENT: I feel I’m not a great kid to her. (pause) You know? I don’t feel like I’m like good. I don’t feel like I’m a good family member to my family name. I feel like (pause)—I feel like they probably look at me the way that I look at my dad as not really—you know caring about being connected with them or something. Or, you know. I think it hurts my mom that I don’t call my grandparents and stuff, you know? (pause) So, I guess (pause) just for the—I feel like I’m not—I guess this is not the way I would have thought of it, you know? [00:30:03]

THERAPIST: Yeah. No. I see what you’re saying.

CLIENT: I feel like I’m not careful enough or something. I’m not attendant enough I guess to other people’s feelings in my family, you know? (pause) Or at least that’s—

THERAPIST: That’s what you (crosstalk 00:30:17).

CLIENT: that’s how I’ve come to—came from, you know? (pause) Like I feel like it hurts my mom that I don’t stay more in touch with my grandparents. I think that’s what does.

THERAPIST: (pause) You don’t like feel the hurt like—or you’re sort of saying you get—you might feel as if she’s thinking—you don’t care what—[00:31:00]

CLIENT: Well, I mean I guess it’s like—so, if—you know it’s interesting. Like oh wow. Like I—maybe I’m aware of like this—you know for her to say like my dad kind of some hurtful to my mom or something. I don’t want to be like that, you know? I guess it just it gets me thinking I would like to direct that like hyper concern for other people’s feelings, you know? Not towards someone like Kaley, but towards my mom. She’s actually the one who, you know, is the victim of that stuff, you know? And (pause) sometimes I feel like I don’t really do that, you know? (pause) Does that make sense?

THERAPIST: It does. It does.

CLIENT: It seems just more logical like really bothered by the fact that feel like my dad is really horrible to my mom. It’s like I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. And then the meaning around not calling your grandparents or something can have this kind of—can lead to a kind of a construction of it or of the mean being, you know—you’re not doing what made people feel better or feel good. You’re ignoring it or something like that. Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I mean and—I’m not (pause)—I’m not making decisions about how I relate with my family. Like in New Hampshire (ph), for example, based upon me considering how it makes my mom feel.

THERAPIST: Yes. I get the idea.

CLIENT: I don’t—

THERAPIST: You don’t care what they think.

CLIENT: (crosstalk 00:32:46). I don’t really seem to know exactly maybe what it is that’s driving that. Why I feel uncomfortable there? But I can you is it’s not—I’m not making those decisions based upon like how does my mom feel? What would make her feel better? I’m going to do—you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: That’s abundantly evident to me.

THERAPIST: Does it weigh on you in some way that you don’t?

CLIENT: Oh, absolutely.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean I guess that’s what I was getting at. I guess I was getting at that element of it that the effect—you have to be—I—like the careful with your mother kind of thing it means that you’re—you’re thinking about the impact. You—there’s like both a caring what she’s thinking and trying not to care what she thinks.

CLIENT: Yeah. I’m very attune to it.

THERAPIST: Yes. That’s—

CLIENT: That may be a better way to put it.

THERAPIST: Cognizant.

CLIENT: Yeah. Of how those forces operate in that field.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And it also seems to me like it—and that it’s also a bit (pause)—almost like it’s—the way you described it you can feel quite oppressive. (pause) You know?

CLIENT: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean it’s (pause)—yeah. It’s (pause)—I—yeah. It seems like there are a series of options there in terms of like (inaudible 00:34:10) with my mom and my family name and stuff. That I kind of like walked into and I’ve been determined by other things. And I have very little ability to kind of like actually (pause) determine. You know what I mean? Like I—you know?

THERAPIST: Yes. Yes. It’s like the book is already written for you. You’re either the good guy or the bad guy. (laughter)

CLIENT: I think I put it that—maybe you said that a long time ago. I was like, you know, I’d better, you know, be my dad.

THERAPIST: That’s right. That’s right. That’s right.

CLIENT: (pause) And, yeah. I—or at least, I guess insofar as I view it through my mom’s experience. You know what I mean? And those are (pause)—that’s—I feel like that’s kind of looking an oppressive options anyway. [00:35:02]

THERAPIST: Yeah. And it’s also—because it’s also like led to you—being your meaning of it too in some way. That you’re both, you know, feel like really (pause) constricted by, but also (pause)—or constricted within—restricted to. That kind of set of meanings about it.

CLIENT: Well, yeah. It’s interesting, right? You know, I’m just thinking about it. Like it’s funny because what I was saying earlier was—wow. Like it seems to me like the most kind of respectable, moral, genuine, nice, selfless way of doing things is just to be completely kind of—is to be the most possible concerned with other people’s feelings and to make your decisions based upon that. And, you know, the nasty people or the nicest people do that to the greatest extent possible or something. (pause) And I think that that is good. You know what I mean? And (pause)—and I think about my mom. That’s actually like that’s precisely what frustrates me in a way. You know, the ability to be able to (pause)—to be able to kind of like experience any of that stuff side of that kind of— [00:36:26]

THERAPIST: Wait. Say that last part. What?

CLIENT: Like that whole sphere. Just like my mom and my family, this and that, like it is impossible to kind of even take one step into there without it being either (pause)—without viewing it through my mom’s kind of like interest and stake.

THERAPIST: I got it.

CLIENT: You know, it’s like the strings. Anywhere you move is kind of pulling on something. You know what I mean? (pause) You know the inability to have any approach towards that. And that’s—yeah. It’s oppressive. Yeah. You can just kind of—it’s like you can just throw the yoke off. There seems no other possibility there. (pause) So, I guess that would be one sphere of my life where I feel like I do do what I’m doing with my professors. Insofar as I feel like I’m perceived that way. You know what I mean? Like it’s not the same area of relief or anything. But— [00:37:39]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Because what I’m hearing about the school experience is that I don’t hear you feeling very—you know, like it feels like it’s—it means—it’s got that meaning of uh-uh. Well, I’m just one of these people that don’t care. It’s more that it sounds to me like that’s just something that you’re free of worrying about. Maybe I’m wrong. But I didn’t get the impression that you felt kind of, you know, that there was an element or dimension of guilt associated with it. But—

CLIENT: Well, it’s weird because that’s—I feel like that’s the (pause)—I feel like those are the like—at least among my family name and stuff. Those are the dominant feelings. You know what I mean? Like that’s (pause)—those are the kind of key words that—the buzz words so to speak. Yeah.

THERAPIST: (pause) Well, in thinking about it also in terms of, you know, Kaley’s (ph) comment about it coming into your own and thinking about it in terms of you making the school experience be for you. And that there’s a little—it’s almost like the impression I get is that you feel more freedom to have this be your work and your—and it not be about (pause)—not be an experience that has a lot of meaning around like well, how are people, you know—how am I thought of? And how much am I thinking of how people—of how much people are thinking of my work?

CLIENT: My sense—my value—my sense of goodness, my—the quality of who I am does not seem to like rise and fall with how perfect I am in school. Which is more—feels different, you know?

THERAPIST: And yet I feel like you’re clearly taking it very seriously. You’re (laughter)—it’s not like there’s been a—maybe there’s—maybe you wouldn’t drive yourself—maybe you’d be driving yourself harder. I don’t know. But—[00:40:09]

CLIENT: No. I do take it—I take it very seriously. Yeah.

THERAPIST: So, you take it very seriously nonetheless. It’s still something that’s yours and it’s serious. And on some level it does matter what they think at least in as much as what the grades are or what—how they see your work.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Precisely. Yeah. (pause) Yeah.

THERAPIST: (pause) You know, very different than a defensive, “Well, I don’t even care what they think. I, you know—this isn’t,”—I mean that’s a whole different (laughter) kettle of fish.

CLIENT: I think the way I put it to Kaley (ph) was I don’t need them to love me, you know? Like that’s what I was—that’s what I was going after with Kaley (ph), you know? I don’t need them to love me. You know, just like I don’t need, you know, a lot of people to love me. You know what I mean? (pause) That’s—yeah. That’s a very relaxing set of dynamics. You can contrast that with like Kaley [ph]. You can contrast where we’re talking about like with my family name. There seems a lot more room for (pause)—yeah. [00:41:19]

THERAPIST: Well, yeah. Right. Right. Yep. (pause) Yeah. And it can—maybe one of the big contrasts now for you between school and like say your family or Laney for that matter or Kaley (ph) is the element of love. (chuckles) You know? If I love them, does that—then, you know, is it necessary to be—you know, thinking along those lines.

CLIENT: Well, that seems to me the right avenue. That’s enough. I mean it’s like it probably almost seems more like who is it okay to not love? Not even come to love yet. You know what I mean? That seems to be more of like the question. At least when I think about it, you know? Does that make sense? [00:42:06]

THERAPIST: Yep. Yeah. Is it okay not to worry about the professor love in the end is the thing? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: I think it is okay. (pause) Because I don’t really love her. I don’t really love them at all. A lot of them. And a lot of them are kind of just crappy people to be honest. Yeah. People that I would not be interested in talking to very much (inaudible 00:42:36). (pause) That’s all.

THERAPIST: It’s what you do while—then it’s a lot more.

CLIENT: Yeah. And that like—that’s, I guess, like that’s something that I didn’t really consider I guess normally. Before when I went into school, you know? (pause) Yeah. And I’m not—that was like—that was like I always talking to Kaley (ph). I felt like if I totally like—if I totally just messed on a thesis then she wouldn’t—like particularly close to graduation, I think I said a lot of times like I was worried it would mean we wouldn’t be friends anymore, you know? It was (crosstalk 00:43:18)—I thought she wouldn’t stop—it was really important, you know? It was kind of what I associated with it. (inaudible 00:43:26)—it was so comforting to me when we kind of stayed friends, you know? (pause) It makes it a lot easier to do the reading and stuff and just kind of—you know.

THERAPIST: Is that right? (crosstalk 00:43:46)

CLIENT: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

THERAPIST: I bet. I bet. (pause) When that’s not part of the consideration of the—of what you have to consider of what you feel compelled to do.

CLIENT: Yeah. There’s also high stakes riding on it.

THERAPIST: I bet.

CLIENT: You know you can keep that energy for (inaudible 00:44:09).

THERAPIST: (pause) What’s that? What are those the other places?

CLIENT: Laney and the cat.

THERAPIST: (laughter) Laney and the cat.

CLIENT: When I come home. I guess it’s drawing that kind of distinction, I guess, a little bit. Like we were talking about a while ago too, you know?

THERAPIST: What’s that? Family? Yeah.

CLIENT: Home, work, and school distinction thing, you know?

THERAPIST: The love relationships. Yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: I think that’s time.

THERAPIST: Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. It’ll be, I guess, two weeks then.

CLIENT: So, two weeks.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: (pause) It’ll stay there for until tomorrow. And then—

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