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THERAPIST: Hi. Come on in. (PAUSE)

CLIENT: It’s been a little bit of a (inaudible at 00:03:53) and so sort of fell back into work which is... (PAUSE) (inaudible at 00:04:09) catching up on a backlog of marketing. [00:04:11]

But... (PAUSE) For the last two days of Passover, we had Karl’s (ph) brother Aaron (ph) the second to youngest one visiting. And... (PAUSE) And, at the same time, I’ve been dealing with the construction issues. But it looks like that’s going to come to an end. When we got back, we were pretty firm that they needed to quicken things up a little bit, get things back into shape. We had our consultants, a few people making sure that the repairs to what they did were done properly and it looks like everything is going to come to a pretty smooth end there fairly soon. [00:05:07]

(PAUSE) And it was really nice to have Aaron visit. I’ve always been very fond of Aaron but, I mean, this last year, it’s been sort of like there was just a... (PAUSE) I mean, he was always very mature for as long as I’ve known him. I can sort of imagine that he must have been quite... Karl says that he was very serious sort of a kid. (PAUSE) I just sort of feel like... He’s heading to university in the fall and... (PAUSE) [00:06:00]

(PAUSE) I was sort of contrasting him with when... We’ve had Cadence (ph) visit... I also very much enjoy having him. But Cadence is very... (PAUSE) He’s very active, very social, very... He’ll always come to... (PAUSE) He has to have plans and just a very sort of vibrant kind of a person to have around. Because Aaron’s sort of... I guess, in a way, he reminds me of myself when I was, well, as I am now but also when... When I look back... (PAUSE) [00:07:00]

(PAUSE) You know, he packs as though he’s really afraid he’s going to a place that doesn’t have any books at all. So he’s going to... Maybe a plane will get stranded somewhere and there won’t be any books until... He’ll be stranded there for a month and he must make sure he doesn’t run out of reading material. Really just... (PAUSE) ...very much... (PAUSE) And, you know, everything from Kafka to... (PAUSE) Well, he sort of fell in love with a book that Karl had here of very old essays and plays. Karl and I giggle over sometimes. (PAUSE) [00:08:00]

It was kind of... It was very relaxing. (PAUSE) What I felt was that it was really nice to have... Because I’ve sort of... (PAUSE) I’ve always been fond of Aaron but... (PAUSE) ...when there are so many people around, it can be a little hard for somebody like me to get to... (PAUSE) ...to get to know individuals, I think. I’m not the sort of person who can just make friends with somebody in a crowd. (PAUSE) (SIGH) And I... (PAUSE) And I really felt like by the time that Aaron left, we made friends, not just he was a brother in law whom I liked and felt, you know, sort of brother in law-ly affection for but sort of made friends with him in his own rite which was... [00:09:15]

He definitely made friends with Genevieve (ph). It was very pleasant. (PAUSE) Also, it was very... (PAUSE) After he left we... (PAUSE) [00:10:03]

Somewhere in there... I don’t remember. Everything’s been sort of scattered. But somewhere in there, Karl had this kind of... (PAUSE) Laura (ph) sort of out of the blue decided to get in touch with Karl. (inaudible at 00:10:23). On the one hand, he has Aaron who is so... (PAUSE) ...where everything is so very amicable. And, on the other hand, there’s Laura where having her contact Karl is something that feels out of the blue and sudden. And why would she want to talk to Karl now when she hasn’t for the past couple months? It’s... (SIGH) (PAUSE) It’s slightly distasteful comparison to me. But (inaudible at 00:10:57) felt like to us both but certainly to me. [00:11:01]

It was a sudden alteration. She’s been having increasing difficulties with her job. (PAUSE) And she’s looking into applying to law school. I have my own views on that. But nevermind. I don’t think it will make much of a difference for her because I think the problem... Her job is... I think she needs to think about what she wants not how she approaches her occupations. (PAUSE) [00:11:57]

And she’s very unhappy about it all and wanted to talk to Karl about it and in particular she’s thinking about visiting the law school. So she wanted to... She was just thinking about making a day trip sometime in the last week of April, the beginning of May and wanted to see about whether she could come for lunch or dinner for one of those days. And Karl and I looked at, had a terribly hectic week but... Kathleen (ph) and Paul (ph) are coming for that weekend, May 2nd to May 4th. But I proposed that if she could make it on the Thursday, we could have lunch together. She could come over for lunch since dinner will be less fun for her since Genevieve will be asleep. [00:13:09]

And... (PAUSE) So then sent off that e-mail and then Kathleen wrote to say that... (SIGH) (PAUSE) Laura is going to have a very busy day. It’s too far from the law school to come for lunch and couldn’t she stay the night and she knows that we have a very comfortable guest room because Aaron said so. And as Laura’s brother, couldn’t Karl invite his sister to stay the night? That was this morning. [00:13:59]

And... (PAUSE) He got that e-mail and drafted his reply before I got up. He was up earlier because Genevieve was up earlier and she was rather difficult last night. (LAUGHTER) So I used the occasion to get that (inaudible at 00:14:27). It was... (PAUSE) It’s very difficult to describe the... When I came out of the bedroom, I saw that Genevieve was playing very happily on the floor. She’s been crawling and that’s... She was playing very happily, was sort of very picture baby contentment. She had a measuring cup. Of course there were lots of baby toys around but she had a measuring cup because that’s much more interesting than any of the toys that are designed for babies. [00:15:15]

And there was Karl sort of... (PAUSE) ...hunched over the laptop looking at the sort of drawn tired intent, didn’t look up when I came in, just really... I knew... When I saw that he looked like that, I knew that he must have gotten some e-mail. I didn’t know whether it was Laura or Kathleen. But I knew it was one of them. I knew that we must have transgressed some line with the way that we were organizing... Before I saw any... I didn’t know what we had done wrong. But I knew we had done something wrong. [00:16:01]

I knew it last night that whatever we were writing to Laura would be wrong, whatever we were... There would have to be something because that’s just what it’s come to be like. Whatever we’re doing when it’s coordinating, we must be, there’s some barrier that we’re transgressing. (PAUSE) And I knew that Karl was really, really profoundly upset. Somehow he had just sort of hit ten on his inner scale. And the reply that he wrote was, for him, extremely strong. It was, “Laura is an adult. She’s responsible. She can coordinate with us. She is coordinating with us. I find it very difficult when you come in and speak for Laura or anybody like this. It’s happened a few times too often recently and it makes things extremely difficult for me.” [00:17:11]

I’m paraphrasing but this is... (PAUSE) He said... (PAUSE) It was... (PAUSE) He relaxed a good deal after he sent it. But I really felt just so... (PAUSE) [00:18:00]

(PAUSE) On the one hand, sort of pleased and proud that he had said what he thought was the decision for us. On the other hand, just... (SIGH) (PAUSE) In a way, you know, I... I felt like I’ve... I’ve been sort of waiting in a way for the... By this time, I’m usually feeling intense anxiety over this sort of thing and I’m not right now. I’m not feeling it. (PAUSE) But... (PAUSE) I’m more feeling... [00:19:01]

(PAUSE) Really, really sorry for Karl... (PAUSE) Kathleen replied quite quickly two e-mails. One... (PAUSE) ...saying basically, “But Laura didn’t tell you and it would be... And you’re her brother and you should do it.” And then the other one she... “Of course I’ll stay out of your business.” And then, “I don’t want to impose on you but it would be very convenient for Laura if she could stay the night,” and CCed Laura. [00:20:03]

It was really like looking at two... When Karl saw it, he actually burst out laughing. It was just too funny to him, you know, this... (PAUSE) There was something so, you know, black and white but no resemblance between... (LAUGHTER) But I have to butt in because Laura’s not doing. Laura didn’t say it. So I’m here and I have to do it. I have to get in on it. It’s like, “Of course I won’t. But I’m doing it anyway and here’s Laura to talk about it and she wants to stay.” (PAUSE) “You’re doing it all wrong and I’m going to do. Of course do whatever you want sweetie. But here’s what you should do.” [00:21:01]

(PAUSE) And again, normally at that point I’m sort of feeling a little bit shaky and unnerved. But, you know, I... I felt annoyed and I do still and I do feel sort of, maybe a little bit jumpy when it comes to mind. (PAUSE) But mostly, I’ve sort of... (PAUSE) I can see the funny side of it. [00:22:03]

I... (PAUSE) ...felt more frustrated and, “This again.” (PAUSE) Less... (PAUSE) When I went to the lab, I was able to focus on my marking (ph). I wasn’t constantly sort of switching off and thinking, “Well, what do we do.” I sort thought she should just say (inaudible at 00:22:51). (PAUSE) [00:23:00]

(PAUSE) I think the difference is that, in part, I’ve... (PAUSE) ...feeling... I’m less taking it personally, more recognizing that in this case it has, as far as I’m concerned, nothing to do with me. I feel really sorry that it’s directed at Karl and on his shoulders and it’s something he has to think about on top of everything else. (PAUSE) He has enough on his plate these days as well as I do. (PAUSE) [00:24:00]

(PAUSE) But anyway, when Aaron was here, he told us that he had been thinking about... I forget whether it was going to Congress or Senate. Whatever. I don’t know. Some political thing. [00:25:05]

And he had just been wandering around trying to look at it, speaking to people occasionally. He’s interested in politics. He likes to watch these... He had the day off, he wanted to explore a few places. Apparently, that’s what the seventeen year old boy did on his days off. He said one of the things he noticed... He felt like there was a disproportionate number of very tall men and of very short or much shorter women. And he was wondering, sort of the... He said there’s no way obviously to do the... In his way of speaking, he’s more like (inaudible at 00:25:57). He goes, “I don’t have any way of course of doing a really rigorous assessment of this but...” [00:26:03]

He sort of conjectured that maybe people feel that when it’s a much taller man, he carries more authority and when it’s... But if it’s a taller woman, then, he said he thinks that it’s possible that men in particular find them too intimidating, sort of stepping out of role. Whereas a shorter woman expresses herself more (inaudible at 00:26:37) and clearly can be listened to with more respect. Which... We were all giggling. (PAUSE) I sort of said, you know, speaking before I was thinking I guess, but... I said, “But your mom and grandmother are both very short. And I find them scary.” [00:27:07]

He said, “Well, that’s true.” (LAUGHTER) He said, “I guess, personally, I’ve lived with them and grown up with them too long. But they are pretty scary.” And... (PAUSE) Then I went off to say that I don’t know whether... Marilyn (ph), my supervisor, is very tall and certainly very striking. (PAUSE) But I was... (PAUSE) Yeah. It was just one of those... It was a... It was such an interesting moment. [00:28:01]

I asked Karl afterwards whether he felt the same way. It’s interesting that sort of Aaron gets... He doesn’t... He said he grew up with it and didn’t feel it in that, in a personal way, kind of personal fear that he could sort of recognize. (PAUSE) (SIGH) (PAUSE) Karl said he didn’t feel that. He said he could see how it was for me but he doesn’t feel it for himself. (PAUSE) But, again, the interesting thing is that in this particular case I haven’t been feeling afraid of I guess her personal consequences in a way that... I don’t know what personal consequences I was afraid of. [00:29:09]

But... (PAUSE) Maybe afraid that... (PAUSE) ...Kathleen would succeed and sort of install Laura for the night even if that wasn’t something that was desirable for anybody. I’m not sure what but I was... (PAUSE) But I haven’t been... That’s not something that’s been coming out in this particular situation, this case, this time. (PAUSE) [00:30:00]

(PAUSE) Though I am feeling a lot of sort of curiosity. Where did this come from? How did this happen? Was Kathleen... I guess Kathleen must have been talking to Laura about Laura’s travel plans. Were they making... But then why wouldn’t Laura... She’s capable of phoning up Karl or sending an e-mail. Did she do it... Did she ask Laura before... I don’t know what... What’s with this? (LAUGHTER) Where is this coming from? It’s kind of... (PAUSE) ...odd and annoying, slightly bizarre. (PAUSE) [00:31:00]

It sort of reminds me when we were sort of, when Karl and I were trying to sort of untangle how on earth that bogus engagement story ended up on the... (PAUSE) ...the website. (PAUSE) Just sort of showed up there and at first Karl thought that it must have been Kathleen wrote it. It was Laura and then Laura said that it was this other person. (PAUSE) [00:32:00]

(PAUSE) It always amazes me. It’s such an absolutely phenomenal contrast between the... (PAUSE) ...ease of communication and the chattiness and figuring things out with Aaron and the awkwardness of... It was absolutely impossible and inevitable that we should get through planning a visit with Laura without something coming up. (PAUSE) [00:33:00]

(PAUSE) In a way... The thought that came, sort of darted through my mind... It’s like they’re not in the same family. Of course, it’s an odd thing. Lots of families have many widely different characters. But it’s that... (PAUSE) It’s that distinction that’s struck me before so many times, this sort of sharp gender line distinction (LAUGHTER) between the... (PAUSE) ...Patricia (ph) and Kathleen and Laura and all of the boys. [00:34:03]

(PAUSE) There might... (PAUSE) (inaudible at 00:34:31) Well, what’s the matter with you that you’re okay with the boys but not with the girls? Is there something going on? (PAUSE) You know, it’s like I couldn’t make my way to feeling bad about myself along one route so I had to choose another one. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Well, it is curious that the boys... I mean, you’re talking about sort of blaming yourself for that. But it does seem curious, maybe understandable, that the boys in Karl’s family fare better than the girls or girl. Does he have another sister? [00:35:07]

CLIENT: No. Just Laura. (PAUSE) Yeah. You know, when I think about it... Well, let’s see. She is the only girl and... (PAUSE) I think she has been singled out. I don’t know that singling out is necessarily good for anybody really. (PAUSE) It does sort of seem like there is some kind of, I don’t know, matriarchal structure in there or... (PAUSE) [00:36:05]

(PAUSE) Patricia sort of is a very dominant figure and then... (PAUSE) Kathleen and the... I don’t think it’s very good when... The kind of rhetoric that Kathleen will throw around about Laura (inaudible at 00:36:35). You know, she always refer to her for fashion sense. Again, I think that kind of singling out, there is a lot of it. I look at the behavior and it does seem more understandable, as you say. (PAUSE) [00:37:09]

(PAUSE) It’s funny. The boys even look like Paul (ph). (PAUSE) [00:38:00]

Yeah. I... I think part of what’s... (PAUSE) I think. I know that part of what’s going on in Karl’s mind right now that... (PAUSE) We haven’t really made any summer plans of any kind. I know that he’s been hoping that we’ll work things out and be able to make a visit to DC. (PAUSE) And... Because after Thanksgiving and after Israel, I just... (PAUSE) I know that I don’t feel capable right now... Or I haven’t really thought about how I feel right now. But I certainly wasn’t at that point feeling capable of going back to that house. It just wasn’t... [00:39:11]

It just was not a possibility. (PAUSE) And he agreed with me that we needed to make sure, before we went back we needed to make sure that both of us felt comfortable, making sure we were strong enough in ourselves, comfortable in ourselves with the situation to make a visit there. (PAUSE) And I think we’ve been having the feeling, I’ve been having the feeling that we’d been having some progress. And I think that when the situation broke out this morning, he just sort of saw it sort of tumbling over. (PAUSE) [00:40:00]

(PAUSE) I’m not sure I feel the same way to the same extent. I certainly felt, agreed that, you know, obviously if there had been any signs of better communication or working things out in an appropriate way... To Kathleen, well, all of the things he had said clearly hadn’t made a significant impression because she’s doing the same thing. But I think that I hadn’t really expected that anything, that that would change. I think that I sort of finally reached a point, have reached a point that I’m seeing that if there’s going to be change, it’s going to be my ability, our ability to cope with it. And the fact that I’m not sort of shaking (LAUGHTER) with the anxiety over, that I used to feel over this sort of thing means that... [00:41:15]

Well, I’m still not sure that I want to go back yet. But... (PAUSE) I think I’d be, I would be better equipped now than I was in November. And maybe in a little while, I’ll be, in the future better equipped again. (PAUSE) But then I don’t have that same feeling, that kind of painful feeling that... It’s not my mother who’s acting inappropriate. I don’t have to come to terms with those feelings that happen that I get, seeing with Karl. [00:42:09]

(PAUSE) I just feel like I have one small victory anyway. Aaron had been telling us before Genevieve was born how he wanted to be called Uncle Aaron. [00:43:15]

And when they call came up when Genevieve was born, Kathleen was clearly not taken with it when Karl asked Aaron if Uncle Aaron wanted to hold Genevieve. She’s (inaudible at 00:43:35) nicknames, certainly not among her children. It’s not, I don’t know, not dignified or something. So, for a while, he was Uncle Aaron. (PAUSE) I know when he was over, Karl asked him, “So do you want to be Uncle Aaron or do you want to be Uncle Aaron?” He said, “I wanted to be Uncle Aaron.” (LAUGHTER) And so he has now been established as Uncle Aaron. [00:44:05]

Just... (PAUSE) It’s sort of a tiny little thing but... (PAUSE) It made me feel quite warm. (PAUSE) I don’t know. Something about it felt so familiar. I like to watch Genevieve crawling around on Uncle Aaron’s lap. It sounded more comfortable, felt more comfortable. (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: And, on that note, we’re going to need to stop for today. I was going to ask you. Is there... Twelve fifty next week is totally fine on Tuesday. I’m wondering if you have the time if you would have twelve o’clock available. If you do, that would be great. If not, 12:50 is fine.

CLIENT: That’s on Tuesday?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Yes. Twelve o’clock is...

THERAPIST: Does it work?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: As long as it’s not inconvenient for you.

CLIENT: It’s fine. I think it might even been a little bit easier for Karl who has a meeting in the afternoon.

THERAPIST: Okay. Yeah. Sometimes I know you prefer the earlier times anyway. So I figured I’d ask. Okay very good.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: So I’ll see you on the 29th on Tuesday at twelve. Okay great. Take care. (PAUSE)

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