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(No audio until 00:10:48)

THERAPIST: Hi! Come on in! I just got your mess , I had to get your message.

CLIENT: So sorry. I didn’t, you know, I checked the time before I left the house and it’s just, catching up on a backlog of e-mails and... (chuckles) It just sort of escaped me. Sorry about that.

(pause) (inaudible) (pause) So I guess I’m really playing catch-up with this. It was just so, it’s been so densely packed, really. I did finally finish that massive load of marking (ph) that had gotten backed up because of Passover. Then Laura (sp) arrived, and after Laura left, then we were, we had Kathleen and Paul coming. So, it was... just pretty packed. [00:12:15]

(pause) So, it went overall fairly well, I think. It was, in a way, good that Laura came before Kathleen and Paul did, but you know on the one hand, it was, it made for sort of double stress, expecting more people. But in another way... I’m a little bit less... It was sort of, well, it kind of a tester for me. Like, part of the thing that I’d been worried about was... If something touches me and kind of touches the wrong part of my emotions, but gets me irritated... how... how in control of myself am I? I was worried in a way about my... about my behavior. And... I’m not entirely sure why exactly, why I thought that I would be... any less well behaved than I normally am. But... but it was something that worried me. [00:14:09]

And... I think it was just as well that I had a chance to see, with Laura first, that there wasn’t really anything to be afraid of. (pause) It was also that, you know, I... I was concerned also, of course, about Laura’s behavior. You know, she has this tendency to get very dramatic, and what was she going to be like? She was perfect. She was really quite fine. She... (pause) So I mean, Karl said that he finds that when he’s one on one with Laura, she tends to be nicer (chuckles) and... And he was totally right; she was. She was much... much more genuine, I think, than I’ve seen her before, at least it felt that way. I didn’t feel like she was putting on a show.

(pause 00:15:34 to 00:15:56)

She was more... being on our turf, she was certainly much more... easy-going with me, with Genevieve (sp), with... This pushiness (ph), test, it felt like, you know, she was testing us all the time. She didn’t do that, so that was, she... The thing that I oftentimes really don’t quite like about Laura is that she has a tendency to sort of put down Karl... and... she only got anywhere near that once or twice this time. [00:16:57]

Once when... Karl was sort of checking that she knew the directions to where she was going next, at some point, and... and so that’s something else, it was a little bit silly. That’s between them. It’s sibling stuff, but, you know, (chuckles) I just don’t really like to hear it. And if Karl doesn’t... if Karl doesn’t notice or care, then... but... She’s, generally speaking, most of the things that she, that normally sort of get to me with Laura... weren’t really there so much. I don’t know whether it was because she sort of felt like she was playing hooky from work and so then... A sort of stolen vacation for a day or what, but there was something that kind of relaxed her and... (inaudible) this is what he said about when she’s... He didn’t really say when she’s not, when she’s on her own, he also said when she’s not with Adino (ph), with his cousin. [00:18:43]

It’s true that oftentimes when we do see her, it’s with someone or other of her friends. It’s this, that kind of... “girls in a group” effect. Sometimes, and probably sort of harking back to school, to high school, that sort of clique-ishness of who’s on the inside and who is on the outside. (pause) Whatever it was, she, it was relatively, it was quite pleasant and... I was really particularly glad for Karl’s sake, that he felt like, he had gotten back on good terms with her like, just... It definitely really relaxed him, to be on better terms with Laura, which was great. [00:19:55]

For me, as I said, the effect was mostly that it then felt more... selfish or that I was, that I’d been able to... that I wasn’t so afraid, that I would have been able to sort of, basically trust myself. It’s interesting, it reminded me of something my Mom once said, more than once. She said that every time that she would be worried about something with me, she’d learn afterwards that she really should have just trusted me, that she, that it was fine, that I had a tendency to sort of work things out on my own. She never, she wouldn’t necessarily see the work in progress, but it always came out fine. And... It just popped into my head right now, maybe I sort of imbibed the worry without imbibing the trust. [00:21:08]

THERAPIST: It’s interesting.

CLIENT: Anyway... I’m not going to pretend that it was a completely pleasant visit with Kathleen and Paul. (chuckles) I was really glad that Paul came... but... For me, where I’ve (inaudible) it was very much the same, that kind of, I, I didn’t... always like what was going on, or I didn’t always feel comfortable. There were the awkwardnesses, of course. But I was... the thing was, I was well able to sort of... stand on the outside of it, in a way. Watch, realize that... it was almost like, “Hey look, Tammy! You’re having the most perfectly normal conversation right now! If Kathleen’s not engaging with that, that’s okay; that’s Kathleen, but you’re having a perfectly... normal conversation (inaudible). “

(pause 00:22:39 to 00:23:00)

There are plenty of (ph), I mean, I spoke with both of my parents at various points before this, and sort of in different ways, suggested just keeping my sense of humor in order, basically. (pause) And I think our setting was mostly that, if you can... keep things in perspective, then there really was, oftentimes, sort of a... an absurd or sometimes funny side of things. To me, sometimes the absurd and the funny go hand in hand.

It’s like, there was this moment when... we were talking about the garden and what we’re thinking, in terms of gardening. Karl was, or one of us, was mentioning that the forsythia was staying in bloom for quite a long time and making quite a fantastic display. Kathleen asked whether she told me the story about Karl and the forsythia. Didn’t think she had, so she, said how they, when Karl was little they... outside and pointed out the forsythia. Karl said, “It’s not forsythia, it’s twosythia,” because there was two sythia bush , two forsythia bushes. I laughed and... “Oh, the young! So literal-minded,” or something like that. [00:24:41]

So then, “No, it’s because at that age, even though he was so young, he could already count.” It was like, sort of... There is a correct way to understand this, and that’s the one (chuckling) that shows (inaudible), shows off the intellect (inaudible). “Yes, yes, (chuckles) Kathleen. It’s very impressive that Karl (at whatever age he was; I didn’t ask), could already count to two.” Like... It is funny. You’ve got to laugh at it.

(pause) It was sort of that... that, you know, it’s... sad, because it’s the same sort of thing. It means that all of the kids have been, when, that Aaron had to prepare now if, in case he wants to get, apply for a Rhodes Scholarship. It’s this sort of like... why, when Laura was here, she... really almost cracked when we told her that... that Piya (sp) and Christian were both getting, going into PhD programs. I guess she... doesn’t really know what she wants to do, and she’s, whatever. She... I thought for a minute she was going to break down in tears, she looked so... you know... forcing (chuckles) herself into this kind of... fake smile of how impressive it was that they’re doing this and... You know, on the one hand it’s sad for that. On the other hand, it’s like, almost a caricature of herself. [00:26:54]

(pause) And there were other moments, too. Like, they came with sort of this bag of things for Genevieve: toys and books and... It was a practically miserable desperation of... if we, I don’t know, if we give enough things, then a nine-month-old baby, that she’ll like us. It’s, that... watching Kathleen try to engage with Genevieve was... I mean, not painful from the, for me, that’s, that I’ve been describing last week. Not that type of painful that I’ve been so afraid of feeling. It was somehow, that didn’t really enter into it for me, in the event. It was... like, when she was (inaudible), sort of reading the instructions on the toys for how a child of Genevieve’s age should play with the toy. Then Genevieve, being an individual human being, of course, and one who cannot read (chuckles) the instructions on the toy box, had no clue what she was supposed to be doing. So she was playing the way that she plays with toys, which for her right now is, “Is there a label? There is a label! I want to suck on the label!” [00:28:59]

(pause) Sort of watching the attempt to interact with her was so... (pause) I don’t know how she had six children! Like, she doesn’t know how to play with kids, with babies! It’s so not, it really doesn’t come naturally. (pause) I just keep coming back to when (ph) told my mom, “You just sort of...” (inaudible) was basically, just... talking with Genevieve pretty much until she, you know... sort of just sat there on the floor and let Genevieve crawl over and (inaudible). “Oh, is that a tasty label? You know, you’re a pretty cute baby. I have to say, you’re a pretty cute baby,” and then just sort of... letting Genevieve check her out. You know, “I’ll let...,” she let Genevieve lead. She let Genevieve lead. [00:30:33]

(pause) Or remembered things like, “Oh, I remember you kids loved playing with the measuring cups. I don’t know why they liked them more than all of the toys, but they loved the measuring cups. Here... does Genevieve like measuring cups yet?” Which, yes, she does. (pause) Genevieve didn’t... and it’s like, Kathleen had no clue how to let Genevieve lead (which I guess, when you think about it, is pretty much the same thing, now that her kids are older). (pause) She was, in a way it was... made me feel, you know, sad, sorry. There was something kind of pathetic in the sight. Not pathetic in the (inaudible) sort of pathos. [00:31:45]

(pause) On the other hand, it... was helpful to me, in a way. I knew that... I mean, there was that... I think I, it somehow gotten in that I, that maybe if they weren’t hitting it off, it was my responsibility. I had, I guess, had taken, you know, Laura’s remarks and well, sort of accusations, and Kathleen’s remarks too much to heart. And this had sort of sitting back and just observing, while I was talking with everyone, visiting and watching. It was... it was so definitely clear that there was no way that this was coming from me. (therapist responds) It was just... I was just there, sort of watching and making sure that... that everything was, you know, I was just there. If Genevieve wanted to crawl over me, then she could, but I was just, I was just there and, letting them visit. I wasn’t... (pause) It was a kind of, it was a confirmation to me, I think, that there was no way that any of this had come out of my work, or my responsibility and... and it sort of let me, at that part, move on, I guess. [00:34:12]

THERAPIST: That’s really good. It’s a big deal.

CLIENT: (pause) I was going to say that there weren’t things that still, you know... There, that bag of gifts in a way, it looked kind of, it did get to me, because it sort of... (pause) There, I think it’s getting back to that, what I was talking about, when it came to my birthday present. I mean, these are more appropriate presents. They, Paul had chosen them and they were, you know, sensible things. But... (pause) there was still that feeling of excess that had kind of, that has kind of tended to overpower me before now. (sighs) I’m still not really sure what to... what to make of that, what exactly about it makes me... feel uncomfortable.

(pause 00:35:57 to 00:36:22)

The one moment that really, really... The thing, Kathleen tended, got more and more awkward and irritable through the weekend. I’m not sure exactly why, but that was just sort of the, you know, it did tend to sort of... get worse. The...at the beginning of it, there was... when Genevieve was just sort of crawling around and sort of figuring out who, what was going on, what was the lay of the land here; now there were two new people. I was sitting, and sort of calling to her to come and... Looked at her and then turned around towards me. She said to me, in this kind of false high voice, “All right! Go to mommy! That’s the right choice!” And it was... it was very, very awkward, but (chuckles) (inaudible) shot me this kind of apprehensive look of, “How are you going to take this?” If anything, it could, would have... I know Kathleen, I know where it’s coming from now. It sort of... [00:37:57]

THERAPIST: She’s so competitive! (client affirms) She’s so competitive. She sort of felt undermined by Genevieve, for choosing, for not choosing her.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, it wasn’t even like, one second after that, after she just sort of checked with Mommy, “Everybody here is all right, it’s all safe.” Can you imagine? Just love me right away, and went after something else. She has a nine-month-old baby’s attention span, but it’s just that kind of, that was very constant.

Then by Sunday, she... Genevieve had sort of crawled over to Paul, who naturally... (inaudible) bent over to let her, and she started to whimper, because it was a little bit too close, sort of the warning whimper. He backed off, was very patient with her. But Kathleen, who I think had been hoping to get a picture or something, was just, burst out in this irritable way, “It’s all right!” As though, “What is a nine-month-old baby going to do with that?” Like, she just, that’s... I didn’t get, you know, I was sort of... annoyed by the first remark. Like, “Why do you have to go into that again? Like, why do we have to always be back there?” That one was the one that got me angry. [00:39:34]

(pause) That one was the one that, no matter how often she says, “You should just leave her with us for a week and go off on vacation,” I never ever would trust her. That’s how you speak to my kid when she’s a baby, who doesn’t know anything yet, like... And she does. I think that she knew perfectly well that these were people who didn’t know how to handle babies as well as some of the other people she meets. Like, she’s got survival instincts at least.

THERAPIST: There is a real aggression to how Kathleen approaches people. It’s hard, it’s scary enough as an adult to deal with it, but as a baby, it’s absolutely overwhelming.

CLIENT: Yeah. She kept her distance, because... I mean, she’s... I watch Genevieve every day. She’s not stupid. (pause) I mean, this is a baby who knows exactly how close to go to the cat. As much as she’s fascinated by Fluffy (sp), adores Fluffy, she never ever pushes it, which has been absolutely mind-blowing to me, that she’s that little and she already knows that you can reach out to the cat, but don’t grab? [00:41:06]

(pause) (sighs) That, that one was just... that was... when I was feeling pretty on top of things for the, for the (inaudible), pretty... aware. Karl was aware, I was aware that it was, she was being awkward, unpleasant, she was not happy that she hadn’t had control, I think, over how the visit was arranged. That she was having to do things in a way that was suitable for us. But I was feeling... that sense of... being on top of it, being kind of, being in control. Feeling like my preparation had sort of paid off, feeling like... Feeling (chuckles) like, coming here had been a really, really good investment. That... when I sort of said to myself, “That’s, this is enough. This visit has gone on long enough.” [00:42:31]

(pause) I think Karl got the message, too, because... when I went to put Genevieve for a nap, when I came back, they were getting ready to leave. So... Karl had... had obviously... helped there. But that one, I’m, it still makes me kind of, I’m still feeling, when I remember it, just the... (pause) “You don’t speak to my baby like that,” is the way I, that’s how the, sort of the anger feels in words. She was being a perfectly normal, natural baby. She wasn’t giving the “I don’t like you vibe.” She was giving the warning whimper of “I’m not ready yet.” I know what that (chuckles) means, and it’s fine. [00:43:54]

THERAPIST: You know what it means, because you know your baby. You know when you give the warning whimper, too. (client affirms) (pause) You can identify with what Genevieve was doing at that moment vis-a-vis Kathleen.

CLIENT: Exactly. Exactly right. (pause) There was a funny thing. There was another time when... Kathleen said they’d been having mice, so she asked me about advice in getting a cat to deal with the mouse problem, was there a type of cat I could recommend. And... I don’t for a minute believe that they would get a cat. Her brother is allergic to cats and they like to have them stay there. [00:45:01]

But, I don’t, so I don’t really know what’s up, but I... Well, I mean, I said what I thought, which is “That’s a bad reason to get a cat,” basically. Yes, I know that, you know, the, there was the little voice in my head that was reminding me that, “Tammy, all of that animal’s rights stuff is very liberal and they’re not very liberal.” But, whatever; I am. It’s just...

I was describing, that if you get a cat, it’s a living creature. Shelters are full of cats that people get, because they think a kitten is cute or have a mouse problem. They get a cat to deal with the mouse problem, the cat doesn’t deal with the mouse problem, because the cat doesn’t do that; it’s not that type of cat. They will not feed a cat, so the cat will hunt the mice. If the cat doesn’t have that... (inaudible) too domesticated, or something and ends up in the shelter, being kind of badly neglected. So... I was describing how we got, went about getting Fluffy. The memories that sort of popped to mind was, “You got Fluffy, Fluffy... Fluffy really doesn’t... Like, gets overpowered by other female cats coming in her space.” It just (chuckles) sort of struck me... I don’t know. It was just a funny little thing. [00:45:05]

THERAPIST: That is interesting! Tammy, we’re going need to, nothing to apologize for, we’re going to need to stop. Thank you for your flexibility, and I will see you next Tuesday, then. (client affirms) Okay? Okay, take care!

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