TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: All right. The other I have to do is put this in airplane mode. All right.

CLIENT: How's it going?

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: Tired today. (inaudible at 0:00:20). So I don't know if I spoke with you about it. But actually gave my notice at work the other day. You know, I wouldn't have because it was last Friday.

THERAPIST: But you were talking about on Thursday because they had suggested that they'd be offering you a position on the floor. So you gave notice?

CLIENT: Yea. I gave it. I just spoke to my boss about it. And I don't know. It was just surprising. It went really well. And yea, I don't know. I was really nervous doing it. [0:01:01] I was like I was kind of shaky leading up to the conversation. And I almost didn't even do it. I was like I was so afraid to leave. And I almost said I'll do it some other time something. But then I just kind of got myself prepared for it and just went and did it.

And then it was just really funny how well it received. And it was just interesting just reflect on it and think about the terrifying scenarios that I expected when I come out of it. And just how well it ended up being received. It was funny in that sense.

THERAPIST: The difference between kind of the fantasy and what happened.

CLIENT: Yea. It was interesting. But it felt really, really great to do it. [0:02:00] And to just kind of not have something disastrous come of it. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: Yea. I mean, I just talked to them about it and just said, "I got offered another position. And I'm going to need to take it." And it was just like, "All right. That's fine. I know it's like that's how things work in this industry." And they left me standing there. I was ready for this really hostile response or something. And it had nothing to do with all these (inaudible at 0:02:41) that I had come up with in my head for these kind of responses from them. Yea, I don't know. But it felt really good. I don't know. It felt really kind of empowered and accomplished afterwards.

THERAPIST: Good. Accomplished too, huh?

CLIENT: Yea. I mean, at least for me. [0:03:02] Maybe only because I built it up to be this huge obstacle in my head. But I felt like I had done something...

THERAPIST: Yea, no, right.

CLIENT: ...that was really hard to do.

THERAPIST: And was empowered to do.

CLIENT: Yea. I don't know. And I thought it would be really weird coming to work afterwards. You know what I mean? But it wasn't. And I realized I guess it's just kind of what people do. People do this kind of stuff. And I don't know. It's just that it has been a huge weight off of my shoulders. And it just felt really good. It's been nice.

And then I even told them that I could do two weeks. And I'd like to stop right now if I could. And I could start this new thing immediately. [0:04:00] And I said I could do two weeks. And they ended up just saying, "Oh, we'll have you do one week and then we can figure it out after that." And it was just ideal. Honestly, it was really nice.

THERAPIST: Yea, you weren't it wasn't like you needing to work another two weeks anyway.

CLIENT: Yea. Like I and that's the etiquette. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea, right. That was just...

CLIENT: I'm more than willing to do that even though I didn't want to. But yea, I don't know. There was just I had this impression of this trap over me. That I was going to have to fight tooth and nail to get out of. And there were going to be feelings that were going to have to be heard for me to do it and stuff. But there's just been this seamless exit from it. And it's just been really weird to see it play out like that. You know what I mean? Does that make sense?

THERAPIST: Yea. It does.

CLIENT: I don't know. It feels good. [0:05:00] It definitely feels good.

THERAPIST: Yea. I know to have the I mean, what you did was you really did I mean, it is an accomplishment in the sense of like you also like just were negotiating this kind of both the just the you know you wanted to leave. You wanted to get out of there. And also you cared about them. Making sure that they had that they'd be OK and everything like that. And that you didn't that you handling both sides of that with them and they were kind of receptive to it. I mean, the like they were kind of open. And well, obviously it sounds like they it was just like, "OK. Of course." And then and didn't alter this kind of mentality about who you were or...

CLIENT: Yea. I don't know. [0:06:02] And it just it I could just like in my head very easily kind of infer from that. And carry that principle into thinking about different areas of my life. Like where I would be able to be more kind of like assertive of things that I would change. And just even from that little teeny experience, I can already imagine different things kind of working more productively. From other conversations would be the same like this is. And this is what I need in this situation or something. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: This is not something that I've been comfortable with...

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: ...in other ways.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And in that sense, it's just been great. It's like from that experience just looking out at other things. So many other scenarios just seem so much more surmountable and whatnot which seems kind of silly like when I talk about it with someone like with just other people. [0:07:01] I mean, like, "Oh, it went well. And it was fantastic." I mean, I feel like a lot of people are like, "Yea. I mean, you can do that." You know what I mean? [0:07:11] People do that stuff a lot. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Right, right. But no, it has a lot of significance. And in particular, it's like one area that you've been trying that it's been a struggle to work out for yourself. What can I do for myself and how will that kind of impact how I feel about myself in that position? How do you see yourself in that position? How will the world respond to it? How people respond to that?

CLIENT: Yea. I mean, I just really thought that once I'd like brought what I need into the situation. It was immediately conflicted with what they needed. And like someone was going to come out. Like something was going to give at that moment that there was a space there for both of those things. And it was just surprising to see that kind of work out. [0:08:07] But it felt good.

THERAPIST: Yea, the option. It's been a relief too.

CLIENT: Yea, no, definitely, definitely. And it feels a lot less of a kind of I don't know just kind of trap thing over me. And I feel kind of I don't know proud of myself even in a way that would be hard to kind of explain to someone else, I guess. But yea, I don't know. It's put me in a good mood, I guess, the last couple of days.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: And yea. But I look forward to kind of like we were talking about using this as an opportunity to kind of renegotiate different things in my life, in my schedule and everything. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I hope that so many of those other things they won't be so (inaudible at 0:09:13) and stuff. It seemed like just the inevitable consequences of this crappy situation that I kind of saw myself as unable to escape from. You know what I mean? For all the difficulties that I imagined. You know what I mean? That would have made it impossible for me to exert some control over some of these things. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Oh, are you saying like the way it felt? I mean, we're one of the things that stood out to me about our discussion on Thursday was that you're sort of saying like, "I have this feeling like the sleep stuff is going to be is like immutable."

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: It's not going to...

CLIENT: Well, because it was kind of and on some level because it was just tied into this complex of these things that I wasn't able to kind of exert any control over or something. [0:10:11]

THERAPIST: Oh, OK.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I just I don't know. Coming out of that interaction at work and feeling like I was so able to kind of exert some control over one little part of my life. I can already just kind of feel these ripple effects. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea, interesting, yea, yea. Well, I think that maybe in that real tangible way, there's the whole issue of how much you've been doing and it affecting your sleep just in general.

CLIENT: Yea, even though I'm not on a very concerned with that.

THERAPIST: On a very concrete level, yea.

CLIENT: But yea. Even kind of just helping me think and helping me realize that sometimes that impression that I have of something being impossible to kind of work with... [0:11:02]

THERAPIST: Oh, OK, right.

CLIENT: ...and negotiate.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: It's like all right. Maybe that's not as cut and dried as I convinced myself in some ways. And in that sense it just feels kind of exciting to try to use this as an opportunity to make some sense of that stuff. Trying to like the smoking part. Get into some more proper attitudes and behavior. Stop smoking which I just where just I don't know why but things that I've been thinking so much about lately. Big time.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 0:11:58).

CLIENT: I don't know. They've just been.

THERAPIST: Changing these habits that kind of been...

CLIENT: Yea. I mean, it's just like I've told you for years they've just been things that I felt like I had to do. They just they were. It wasn't up for discussion. You know what I mean? They were just kind of like survival tactics or something. It just in the same that I just knew I had to breathe every day. These are just things that I had to do. That they were just completely secondary to more pressing issues that had to be dealt with that were on the agenda. You know what I mean? They're not the priority.

There's these other kind of issues that just required my attention that were more important that were more time sensitive maybe like even things like when I was in school or something. You know what I mean? Those are things that required all of my kind of mental energy. [0:13:00] And these other things like not sleeping and eating well, smoking, not exercising these are the things that were kind of resultant of these bigger issues.

But I guess I feel sort of I mean, a little bit of a transitioning period, right? Like there's the potential for law school in the future which imagine it could recreate a lot of those very kind of anxious reasons for being concerned and these really kind of pressing things going on. But right now I'm in this interim where there's not really much more. There's just kind of getting through the week. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And in that sense like and I know we spoke about this all of these behaviors that I have seem kind of it's a lot more difficult to kind of put them behind this pressing and super important, immediate goal. [0:14:09] You know what I mean? For example, there was my thesis. And that's sort of like a real purpose.

THERAPIST: Yea. But this stuff ain't going anywhere. I got to focus on my thesis.

CLIENT: Yea. And I had this thing that I could point to. And that I could throw everything behind. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And I don't really have that right now. And I guess it just literally makes it more difficult to do these things like in smoking or something. Every time I got to have a cigarette. I'm like well, what is this in the service of right now? You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Because it was like all like every it was always very clear to me. [0:14:59] Even when I was freaking out and looking for work. It was like this is really important that I find work. Nothing is more pressing than that right now. And it just made sense. And it was stressful. You know what I mean? That's why I was kind of couldn't sleep because that's what I was freaking out about. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: I got to smoke because I got to just calm down so I can try to do this. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea, yea.

CLIENT: But then when I have things like what happened at the other day at work, it's like I'm actually able to control some of these things a little bit more. You know what I mean? They're not exercising this sort of control over me to the extent that all of these behaviors are sort of systemic from it. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And it's just such a completely different way to just think about doing anything. You know what I mean? [0:16:02] But yea, it makes you want to think about trying to not doing some of these things anymore.

THERAPIST: I see, yea.

CLIENT: Yea, it's just a very different way of thinking about me and how I view everything.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Yea, I don't know. It yea, I don't know. It just it feels like in some way that will ripple out to the far corners of my personality and stuff. [0:17:00] And on one hand, it feels good. But then on the other hand, it's like we spoke about the other night. Like that it makes a decision about not smoking. For me to be able to do that, it would require addressing so many other things. You know what I mean?

On the same token, like just me trying to think about sleeping better like we spoke about would require taking into account so many other things. You know what I mean? For me to sleep for me to get on a different sleep schedule would require me to do everything during the day so much differently. For me not to be smoking would require me to just do everything in a different pattern of behavior even when I'm not smoking. You know what I mean? It would be just so much more than just that moment where I've done if I decide to light up a cigarette or something. [0:18:05] You know what I mean? Does that make any sense to you?

THERAPIST: Well, I was thinking, is it just kind of embedded in the fabric of your life? It's not just giving up that momentary thing. It's that your does it feel like a lot of your life kind of like in some ways maybe not even in a major way but some ways it is constructed around not even around the smoking or your sleep schedule but it just if you take that piece out, then everything else kind of changes? Is that what...

CLIENT: But it's like even when I'm not having a cigarette, I'm like right now, I'm not smoking. But I'm behaving in a way that presumes that I'm going to be having a cigarette in 30 minutes. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea, how so? What do you notice? [0:19:00]

CLIENT: I don't know. I welcome it and make room for things that are stressful and accept them. With a complete understanding that it's cool. I'm going to get to have a cigarette.

THERAPIST: I got it. I got it.

CLIENT: And that's like and in that sense, it's like in a way I'm like smoking is operating even in moments when I'm not actually doing it. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Right. So what the smoking is kind of like this it's like a it's knowing that you have an emotional regulator.

CLIENT: No, completely, completely. It's I quantify it. There's like a little pocket of stress that a cigarette can account for or something. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: And that's a way that I carry out my entire day.

THERAPIST: OK. I got it.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? [0:20:00]

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: And yea, I don't know. And it just becomes even more apparent to me when I decide not to like when I try to think about not having a cigarette sometimes. I can start to feel those things starting to pile up or something.

THERAPIST: Right. I guess, to me, it almost begs the question, for right now are you aware of any kind of stress that you knowing later you're going to want to kind of hit? Get taken down a notch by the smoking that you're aware of. (pause) [0:21:01]

CLIENT: Yea. I mean, I just wasn't aware of stress because I don't really know of what. But (pause) yea. I don't even know. I remember after our appointment last time, we had this talk about me and we spoke about sleep, right? And I even had a conversation about I have very I get the impression that I have very uncomfortable experiences when I'm sleeping, right? We had that really, really long conversation. And this is just what came into my head when I was thinking about that. [0:22:04] And that night and we even spoke with the fact that I don't remember my dreams a lot. That a lot of the times it's just waking up with this just ominous feeling.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: That some unpleasant kind of things are happening when I was sleeping or something. And it didn't even require me having a very clear sort of detailed image of what it was. And it was really bizarre. That night I went home and I had an incredibly unpleasant dream about being here. Even like it's explicitly about this experience. And it was just like it was horrible. [0:22:59]

THERAPIST: But you remember it.

CLIENT: I remembered it so explicitly. There's not a detail of it that couldn't recall in a very unusual way. And I thought about it a lot. I don't even really want to talk about it, to be honest.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Yea. I haven't spoken about it with anybody. It was really, really weird. And it freaks me out that my mind even has the ability to handle it. It was with you and me in a therapy session. And you just being wildly inappropriate in certain ways which is weird that there was even the material for that in my mind. (chuckling) You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea. Can you say can tell me what the wildly what was wildly inappropriate? [0:24:00]

CLIENT: Like you being sexually inappropriate with me.

THERAPIST: Anything specific you remember?

CLIENT: It didn't even really go into that but it got close enough to it that like you making a like a sexual advantage on me or something. And I mean it was a nightmare. It was horrible.

THERAPIST: A sexual advance of some sort onto you.

CLIENT: Yea. Even talking about it freaks me out sharing that with you. But it was just like we had that conversation. We were talking about something very specific and I went home and I had this dream. And I woke up. And I was just like, "Wow. That's that was horrible." And I was just like, do I want to go back to sleep again. (chuckling) [0:25:00]

THERAPIST: That's the thing that I think we were getting at on Thursday.

CLIENT: And it was like it was weird. It's almost like it took the principle we were talking about. It was like I'm going to do this to a tee. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: And it was just like because even I left leaving and being like maybe it's not as bad as I was talking about it or something. Maybe I was speaking about it in overly dramatic terms when I was here or something. And then I went to bed and I had this dream that basically cast away any doubts of that. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Right. There's a I was thinking that in one way there's reason why you find sleep so filled with all this kind of trepidation and kind of concern. [0:26:00] And then also I guess why one reason why I imagine there's an unconscious kind of thing going where you would forget your dreams. But I think us talking about it must have kind of opened the space for you to remember something very kind of unsettling and upsetting. But it allowed you to go somehow, it allowed you to go there.

CLIENT: Yea, it definitely I mean, it would be impossible for me not to feel pretty strongly that there was some clear thing between that. I mean, I've very rarely remember my dreams at all. And I very rarely talk about my feelings about sleep. And in fact, most of the things of being with each other like that. Yea, I don't know. [0:26:59] It was just...

THERAPIST: Yea, it was a very unsettling. You were unsettled by it.

CLIENT: Oh, yea. It was yea, yea. It was really nasty and it left me feeling horrible thinking about it. And it made me not want to talk about it more and thoughts that it was going to do more of that or something. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: That it would do more that what? Oh, you're probably feeling like...

CLIENT: That I'm assuming that in some way that with me having that dream was connected to our having that long conversation about me sleeping and dreaming.

THERAPIST: Right, right.

CLIENT: And it was almost like something in my head being like don't go there. Or keep...

THERAPIST: Exactly, yes. Yes, yea.

CLIENT: ...doing that or something. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: And I thought about it all day the next day. [0:28:03]

THERAPIST: Which part did you think about? What did you think about the next day?

CLIENT: I was just thinking about the dream. I was thinking about why that happened. It was just looming over my thoughts.

THERAPIST: Do you have any thoughts about it?

CLIENT: (inaudible at 0:28:20) thought about that. I kept like I kind of convinced myself I wasn't going to talk about that with you. I you know what I mean? I don't know.

THERAPIST: And do you have any thoughts about the dream? Do you have any kind of associations or thoughts?

CLIENT: It has seems to have no parallels with anything else that I've ever really thought in terms of patterns or themes or something apart from just the possible kind of overlap between what we were talking about. But the thing that really freaked me out about it was why like what residue or something was that hinging upon? [0:29:08] You know what I mean? Why that was even a plot that got trashed in my head? And that's what made me really uncomfortable to think about it or even share with you or something. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Right. Kind of like what's in there? What's in your mind?

CLIENT: Yea. It was really weird.

THERAPIST: Yea, right.

CLIENT: And uncomfortable.

THERAPIST: Well, I was thinking, too and then some way also you the feeling that you might have about telling me this and as me as the perpetrator in the dream as well. Not a it's not being about, "Hey, I had this stuff in my head that I dreamt about. What does that mean?" But also that, "Here I am the guy that's the kind of the perpetrator in the dream."

CLIENT: Yea. You were very clearly the bad guy.

THERAPIST: I was the bad guy, yea.

CLIENT: Big time.

THERAPIST: Big time, huh?

CLIENT: Yea. No, yea, there was no ambiguity with that one when I was (inaudible at 0:30:09).

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: It was really bizarre.

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: It was really bizarre.

THERAPIST: Yea, it's funny because I was actually thinking about our conversation on Thursday afterwards. And I just reflected upon that what with all our behavior around sleep seemed to mean that, to me, is something that we've kind of touched on before and talked about. But this kind of real unsettling sense of not knowing what is what you're going to find in your dreams. What you're going to find in your unconscious. [0:31:06]

And as you say, you crack the door. You crack I mean, I think in some ways very important for you to be able to crack that door after our conversation on Thursday. And that's sort of saying, "Yea, there's some there was a reason for me to be trepidatious about going in there." But then you did. You did and you aren't being able to talk about it. That's just not worth it.

CLIENT: Yea. No, yea, definitely. I can definitely see that.

THERAPIST: But none the less yea. There's the I mean, that's gets away from the really disturbing quality of the dream that you're left with.

CLIENT: I mean, and then just I remember thinking to myself afterwards as I was at least smoking a cigarette or something. I remember thinking to myself that was really unpleasant. [0:32:02] And I think I was aware of it, what you were saying. This seems like a process of me sort of I'm engaging or something with these things that make it uncomfortable for me to go to sleep or whatever which could be like a metaphor for just my unconscious in general.

But I remember thinking to myself I don't care if I would take the night before where I just kind of woke up feeling weird and not really knowing what about maybe. I could see the potential the therapeutic benefit of moving towards it but I was just like, God, I'll take that though. Like that's...

THERAPIST: Right. That's all well and good until you're in the thick of it.

CLIENT: Yea, and I'd gladly have a life of nights like the night before. And I had convinced myself I wasn't going to talk to you about it. I was just kind of forget that. [0:33:01] Not poke at it or something. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea, I know, yea, yea. Glad you were able to be able to share it.

CLIENT: Yea, I'm glad that I did too.

THERAPIST: It's pretty important that you did.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: I mean in terms of the whole process important, of course, to share. Being able to share what's inside your mind and everything. But that again, I think it's somehow you developing that fascinating (ph) kind of like crack open that door a bit more in here. What's going on inside? What's going on inside?

CLIENT: I guess it's like, what is that even you can go crack it open. And what do you even do with that then? [0:34:01] That doesn't it seems yea, I don't know. I guess it doesn't even seem like something worth engaging with. It's like sure, crack it open and then maybe we like this dream or something. But it just seems like purely vile or something.

THERAPIST: Vile, right.

CLIENT: I see a little like...

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: ...productivity or something. I don't know. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Well, yea. I was thinking in some way it might be hard to kind of when you have a dream like that it can be hard to kind of like talk about it or think about it. In terms of the metaphor or the symbolic kind of when it's also there's this element because there's this element of it. The visceral of the bodily I mean, like a visceral kind of feeling too. [0:35:00] It's not just abstract metaphors we're talking about. You got contact with a lot of feeling too in yourself.

CLIENT: Yea. But what I thought about it was what it seems to have a potential to do is poison this. Like the thing that like maybe cracked that door open. It just seems significant to me that if that dream was real, this wouldn't be like the thing that let me crack the door open, the reaction to it would be like attacking my comfort with the very process that let me start looking into that door or something. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea. You mean if there was an actual concrete sexual transgression on my part did actually happen. [0:36:03]

CLIENT: Like if that dream actually happened...

THERAPIST: If it actually happened...

CLIENT: ...I'd never see you again. I wouldn't want to. I would hate you. You know what I mean? And in that sense, it's like yea, whatever requires investigation or something or whatever things in the unconscious were there. Like were almost pushing me away in that sense or something. You know what I mean? I don't know. Does that make sense to you?

THERAPIST: I don't the last part. Say more about that. You're sort of saying if it really happened, it would ruin this and then what? It's sort of like to look at...

CLIENT: Well, say like me being here. If there is having that conversation, like it opened up the possibly of me thinking about some of these things in my unconscious or something, right?

THERAPIST: Yea. [0:37:04]

CLIENT: It gave me a little bit of ability to start like you said cracking that door open. And then once it got cracked open, the first thing I saw was something that if it was true, would it make me hate then the very thing that allowed me to crack that door open a tiny bit?

THERAPIST: Oh, yea, yea, right.

CLIENT: And made me being here. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: I see. Yea, I got it, yea, yea, yea.

CLIENT: And then that just seemed weird to me.

THERAPIST: Right, yea, yea.

CLIENT: I don't know if that makes sense.

THERAPIST: I think yea. I think I get it. I think I get it. Well, one thing that the dream seems to mean to me is I mean, that's obviously you got a lot of layers to it then. [0:38:00] That can be and will sure have some relevancy to the dream. But it seems to me one thing is that this is not a solo endeavor to get into your mind into what's inside of you. It's we're doing this together.

And really I mean you talk about dreams being really powerful inside. Not no we don't have any control over the dream. And having just thinking about you going into that looking into that a bit brings up all sorts of questions about I think about well, who's going to about it I mean, I was thinking about a trust in me. About a question about me and who I am into be going into all this with you going into your brain going into something very, very intimate about you. [0:39:10] Very, very personal. Very close.

And it seems to me that the dream on one level seems to suggest a concern about what kind of lines we have between us. Where just how close I get. How far away I am. What how are we going to manage looking at what's inside of you together in some way? And obviously one concern being am I going to go over the line in some way? What about it? Am I going to cross some sort of boundary and invade your space? And contaminate what's between us? Contaminate something that's good. Spoil something.

CLIENT: Yea. I mean, because in the dream what I really left with was what made it really terrifying was the very clear shot that I had between an apparent unexamined trust for you. [0:40:11] And then what you ended up doing. That's what made it so it wasn't just some random dude.

THERAPIST: Right. Yes, yes, yes.

CLIENT: And there was the fact that I was so shocked because it was you. And I had sort of thrown suspicions that I didn't I was completely kind of or my guard was down or something. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: That's what made so ...

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: ...scandalous or whatever. I don't know.

THERAPIST: And in some ways that's precisely what you did in having the dream and remembering the dream was letting your guard down quite a bit based on what we were talking about. That I was saying to you let's get into this. Let's get into this together. And I think it reminds me a bit of and maybe slightly different in terms of the content of it but what if you were to share with me your political opinions? [0:41:11] What would and would it have to run the risk contaminating something good between us? Anyway...

CLIENT: Boundaries.

THERAPIST: Boundaries and yea, yea, boundaries, yea.

CLIENT: No, definitely. I see what you're saying. Yea, even when you could think about this and having some implications.

THERAPIST: Yes. Oh yea.

CLIENT: And who knows. I don't know. Just going even off of that. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Absolutely. The (inaudible at 0:41:58). Yes, questions about boundaries and safety and all of that stuff.

CLIENT: Yea, who knows? Maybe. All I know is that it was just that there was it was just miserable.

THERAPIST: Let me ask you something else because it just now dawns on me. I was wondering, too, if the dream kind of picks up on anything that you might have been feeling on Thursday regarding kind of my I was wondering if it felt like I was solicitous for your dreams, in a way. I was wondering if there was a way I was like, "Hey Geoffrey, let's get into your dream. Let's talk about what goes on when you're asleep," that kind of could have also like I think about that level of it, too.

CLIENT: Kind of like you mean evasive with your inquiries or something?

THERAPIST: Yea. Particularly I mean God, you know, just add another layer to it around the around your bed. Or what happens in your bed. [0:43:01] If there's any kind of feeling like...

CLIENT: I mean, I that wasn't my impression of it. I mean, a very it seemed very much to me like something I was offering up. That was the impression that I left with that I was trying to throw that into this conversation. I don't know.

I never feel as if you are being very poking and prodding very much. Like I said in the past of even like kind of like asked you to do more than it was. You know what I mean? Be more pick things out that you think are significant or something. Because I didn't really leave feeling that at all which is almost like another drastic like just like the contrast between the trust and stuff that I had with you. [0:44:14] That was almost like another kind of binary between these two things in the dream. Do you know what I mean?

This because I feel you've sort of not removed but yea, sort of kind of removed approach in a way or something. I don't know. Do you know what I mean? You're not I don't feel like are you are at all evasive. I feel that you are very willing to kind of let me take however much time it takes you to kind of get to something that I want to talk about. Or do you know what I mean? [0:45:01]

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: And even like my and that's something that I'm very kind of aware of in my impression of you. And that was even something too that was contrasted so strongly with in that. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea, yea.

CLIENT: And it was weird. It was just it was nasty. It just seemed it just freaked me out about the ability for something to scheme and conspire in my head in just nasty ways.

THERAPIST: Nasty.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean? (pause)

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: I mean, and I don't know.

THERAPIST: And what were you going to say?

CLIENT: That's really there's this line in one of Freud's sayings where he's talking about with wish fulfillment there. And he was saying that he was giving all these examples of how even like things that don't seem like wishes end up being expressions of of wish fulfillment. [0:46:12]

And there's one verse and say you had this dream of something that was just so obviously not what you would have wished for like if he died or something. That's something clearly would not have been something that he would have wished for. And Freud was like, "Well, this is very clearly an example of it because what your brain did was devise a wish for something that you actually wouldn't have wanted. And the wish that would have been fulfilled was that I would have been proved wrong in trying to convince you." And I was thinking of something on that level...

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: ...of what was what was going on in my head. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea. No, I can see that, yea.

CLIENT: On this really higher level (inaudible at 0:46:50) stuff.

THERAPIST: Like Freud took it to this other wish that was being fulfilled by yea.

CLIENT: Just multiple levels of whatever.

THERAPIST: Yea, right. It was that his it would prove Freud's theory wrong.

CLIENT: Because yea, because the assumption was that the patient wanted it to be wrong. That he's trying to disprove them. So then maybe I just thought it was a little hilarious.

THERAPIST: Yea, I remember that, yea.

CLIENT: But anyways.

THERAPIST: Yea, right. Yes, so I'm thinking about at that level of something of wish fulfillment in some way. And wondering on what level is it?

CLIENT: Even just the ability for things that many degrees removed. And operating on some intentional weird level that I'm not aware or something was just unsettling. But...

THERAPIST: All right, yea, yea, Thursday.

CLIENT: Thursday. Great, thanks so much.

THERAPIST: Yea, you're welcome.

CLIENT: And you gave that thing, right? (inaudible at 0:47:46).

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: All right, great, all right, thank you.

THERAPIST: OK. See you.

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