TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Well, how's it going?

THERAPIST: Good, good, yea.

CLIENT: Are we talking about last Monday?

THERAPIST: What were we talking about?

CLIENT: We were talking about what was it talking about dreams. That's what we were talking about.

THERAPIST: Oh, that's it, yea, yea.

CLIENT: Yea. About my dream or whatever which was interesting. Yea, I thought our conversation was interesting. But I hadn't really thought much about it. But, I haven't really thought much about it all since our last appointment either. I kind of tucked it away a little bit. And I hadn't had any dreams since really at all which just makes it seem even weirder. Just it stands out in a long kind of span of time with no dreams. [0:01:04] And this one dream, it seems so kind of like topical and specific to something that was going on that day or something. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: I don't know. It was bizarre. But...

THERAPIST: Yea, right.

CLIENT: We've been talking about it, though. I mean, talking about what it might mean, kind of the themes in there and even before that, talking about going to sleep and the discomfort around going to sleep the discomfort around these kinds of things in my unconscious and everything. And I was just really taken by the idea that maybe even like, I think, talking about these things is valuable. Do you know what I mean? [0:02:01]

And I feel like I don't even think I have to say it. I feel like it seems like a long time talking for a long time. And I feel like talking about a lot of things and I've covered ground that I certainly would not have come to on my own. But the idea that even these discussions about sleep and stuff which I find really interesting. I find them I realize things about it that I didn't really know of before. Do you know what I mean? But that it's still just coming closer to knocking on the door of the unconscious or whatever. Do you know what I mean? And that's still not even in there yet.

I mean, I remember we were having a conversation about it. And you said something along the lines of, well, if everything that I'm saying about me and sleep is true. And it requires kind of getting into that and figuring out what is it that's going on that's making me so afraid of sleep. [0:03:09] I just remember thinking to myself like geez, maybe not you're not even there yet? I'm like do you know what I mean? (chuckling) But I did just briefly in my head I was just like, "Yea, really I'm still dancing I'm still kind of just floating around that and not getting into that?" You know what I mean?

And I don't know if I made too much of it. But it really stuck out. And I was like, if I'm not now, I don't know. Gee, like a year almost. You know what I mean? And I don't know. Maybe I made too much out of it. But it's like is it going back to these conversations I had about my dad and stuff or my family? You know what I mean? [0:04:00] What gets into that? You know what I mean? What we had that conversation about sleep and it was difficult and I talked about why I get upset about it.

See, we're having conversations about the effects of this thing that's still like a black box or something. That's my impression. Do you know what I mean? We were still not into that black box, so to speak. And I'm convinced that there is such a space. Do you know what I mean? That is beyond where we haven't spoken about it. Yea, but it just really struck me that, at first, maybe we haven't really gotten into those things. And then it struck me that I was probably pretty convinced that we hadn't. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea. [0:05:02]

CLIENT: And then I was just really, really taken aback by that you'd think in a year twice a week it would happen. You know what I mean? I guess it just made me want to be like I want to figure that out. Do you know what I mean? And it made it even and thinking about the time and how long it's been. And that maybe I haven't even done some of those things. I don't even know what I'm referring to when I say that. But it just it made it seem even more difficult or something.

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: I have no idea. I tell you I come in here and I don't even know what to talk about sometimes. I don't know if I should talk about my parents. It's like I have no I talk to you all day about the way these things bother me and make me do weird things and not sleep and check things. [0:06:07] Do you know what I mean? But I feel like I just do that forever. But it's not just going to lead to I don't know. Maybe we have. Maybe I'm making too much of it. I don't know.

THERAPIST: You're saying maybe we have...

CLIENT: Maybe we have gotten into those things there in my unconscious. I'm starting to poke and get into and start to approach some of these things that come up in sleep-land or dreamland or something. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: But...

THERAPIST: Yea, right, right, right.

CLIENT: Because I imagined remember the way you put it. It was just it was really helpful. It was like I think I probably spoke for 50 minutes without stopping about all my issues of sleep and the weird things it makes me do. What I'm uncomfortable with when I'm doing it. [0:07:00] But always had this antagonist relationship. And they you're just like, "I think you're required to figure out what is it that goes what are the things that are kind of happening in your unconscious when you fall asleep?" And I was like, God, this whole conversation has been on the other side of that. Why? Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea, I see what you're saying. Yea, yea. Yea, you can take what I said as a way. I mean, I guess there's just the way I put it was as if I think there might have been this the implication that we haven't really been getting into your unconscious.

CLIENT: Maybe. Maybe I made too much of it. Maybe I really harped on it. But in a way, I kind of like interpreted it. I threw my thinking about it over and over again afterwards.

THERAPIST: That's true.

CLIENT: As you as if you were almost like, "All right. Well, let's start talking about it then." You know what I mean? [0:08:00] "Well, let's start talking about these things then." You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: "Let's start talking about it. What goes on then as opposed to all the things that you do before sleep and after sleep. And the things you think about sleep when you're awake." You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: It's like let's go into it. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: And initially, I was just like, God, I thought that was what I was doing. Maybe I'm not though. I don't know. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Oh, I see. Yea, yea.

CLIENT: Maybe I'm just talking about the...

THERAPIST: That's interesting.

CLIENT: ...conscious manifestations of these unconscious things that are bothering me.

THERAPIST: I see, yea.

CLIENT: You know what I mean...

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: ...which are two different things.

THERAPIST: Yea, because if yea. Well, one thing I'm thinking about is that if you've talked to hear about this kind of sense of real uncertainty sometimes of, "Am I talking about the right thing?" You're wondering if you're talking about the right thing or not.

CLIENT: Yea, I have no idea. [0:08:59]

THERAPIST: Yea, and...

CLIENT: And I'll go after my parents.

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: I mean, that's what everyone thinks. But I mean, I don't know. Apart from that, me trying to read your reactions to the things saying I don't really have much.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea, yea. And so when I say something like that, I was thinking maybe you can kind of understand that as me saying, "Well, now you're on the right track." And...

CLIENT: Or no, I saw that as like, well, if these things bother you, let's start talking about these things that are bothering you. Not just the ways that these things the way that the bothering aspects of it manifest. Let's figure let's get to the root of it, right? You don't like to sleep because of these things are going on in your unconscious. Let's just not talk about all the things you do to voice them. [0:09:59] Let's talk about these things in your unconscious. And it just made me feel like, God, I've been on the outside of that. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea, I see what you're saying.

CLIENT: It's become very clear to me. And I've definitely increased my understanding of the fact that I don't like sleeping. And I avoid it and I don't do it a lot. And I should do it more. And it makes me feel uncomfortable and it always has. And do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: But it's a why there. You know what I mean? So...

THERAPIST: Yea, there's no why there.

CLIENT: There's no why. That's the case. I'm just I think I just painted you a really good picture of...

THERAPIST: What it is.

CLIENT: Yea, like my conscious sort of like awareness of you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: It's like so what so why and I couldn't tell you why or why this is. I have no idea. You know what I mean? [0:10:59] Or sometimes I'll have a dream like that one. I don't know if that's the kind of stuff is going on every night, though. I have no idea. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: It happens so rarely.

THERAPIST: Well, yea, yea, yea. Yea, I think there was answer a bit about it was almost like we sort of asked the question why last Thursday. And the answer like a certain kind of I was thinking about it. We can almost see it as an answer starting to come.

CLIENT: In what form? What was it?

THERAPIST: Well, I was thinking that I think you're right about the why. And it's a really ingenious way to put it that you've been talking about the what. You were talking about the description of what was going on. But having thought to maybe or even kind of occurred to you to ask the why.

CLIENT: I've been talking about it the ways that I avoid my methods of avoidance but never that which I'm avoiding. You know what I mean? [0:12:02]

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: I guess just something you said. The way you put it kind of drew that line for me. And I just didn't...

THERAPIST: Interesting, OK.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea. Yes, yes. (pause)

CLIENT: Yea, I don't know because I feel like for a while we were going on this long thread. And we're talking a lot about my dad and stuff. And I don't know. It just kind of stopped, I guess. I don't know. And yea, I don't know if that was the real (ph) road or something into this. I don't you know what I mean? And that's what I'm that's what I you know what I mean? I don't know.

And I can tell you about why I'm anxious and stuff like crazy. And I can do that until I'm blue in the face. But these are things that I'm really aware of. (chuckling) But [I don't know of what I'm] (ph) not aware of. [0:13:00] I think I almost can talk about this so much because I'm so comfortable talking about them because I think them so much in a weird way. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Maybe I feel like I'm getting you somewhere to a level of understanding that you're not happy with. I don't feel it's that significant for me.

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: I still have no idea why I'm upset sleeping. It doesn't really make sense to me. And I can say, look, all right, maybe it's because my parents got divorced. I don't even know what that means. You know what I mean? I don't see I don't understand the connection between those things. I'm tapped into wanting to go towards that conclusion. Like I've spoken about trying to tie things back to it. But it's I don't know. This it's like well, I almost kind of reach for that out of desperation or something.

THERAPIST: Right, right. Yea, a way to answer the question as opposed to and feeling like that's the answer. [0:14:04]

CLIENT: Yea. I mean, I want to know why I don't like to sleep. And like every and it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue for a lot of people. I was talking to someone the other day and they were like, "Oh yea, I went through this. I went to a sleep therapist." And I was just like, "That's really funny that you went to a sleep therapist." (chuckling) And I don't know. I just I didn't even know there were sleep therapists. And she was like, "Oh man, I could tell you this sleep therapist..." I think they I think I may have told them that I don't sleep a lot. And they're like, "Oh, this sleep therapist would really scare you by telling you things about what's going to happen if I only sleep six hours a night," right? And it was right after our conversation. I was I could probably scare your sleep therapist by telling them...

THERAPIST: (chuckling)

CLIENT: I don't even remember when I fall asleep at night. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: (chuckling)

CLIENT: Like but it's still just like I don't know. I want to know these things. And I want to change it. You know what I mean? [0:15:04] And I guess just sometimes I really like talking about things here. What I worry. I worry if I'm getting to it. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Well, and yea, you're and like it's been a year.

CLIENT: Yea, I don't see that in frustration for you. I'm not saying like I'm coming to you for a year. Where are my results? Like it's not I feel much can't be determined like that. But I'm not putting it that way. I just mean to say like if it's not going to come from a year in here, like what where is it going to come? You know what I mean? I don't know. Two years, maybe? I don't know. And it's more like a frustration with me than with anything. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: Why even come to psychotherapy twice a week for a year and not feel like I'm going to be able to sleep easier or something? [0:16:03]

THERAPIST: What does it mean to you that it's been a year? And you feel like yea, OK, we got to...

CLIENT: I feel like I just got here. I feel like we're still on the surface. That's not like I mean, I don't say that to slight you. But it's just kind of amazing to me. I think I honestly don't know how it could be anything other than that. Do you know what I mean? It's not like I don't think you're doing something right. It has nothing to do with that. It's just like I don't know how we couldn't be. And it just seems like the enormity of the whole thing just seems overwhelming. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea. Yea, that it's kind of like I mean, is that the enormity of it in that it seems to you like it's a big task we're undertaking. And maybe it's going to be it's going to take a large investment of time. [0:17:09]

CLIENT: Yea. And the root is just getting bigger. The deeper you go to try to get to the bottom of it. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And like my reaction to it is more in my realization that it really couldn't be any other way. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: I think you're right. I think it's early.

CLIENT: Yea?

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: I feel silly but Good Will Hunting, it was 15 sessions. Do you know what I mean? And he was cured. It's a joke. Do you know what I mean? But you think about these things. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: Well, I don't know. I would really like that. I would really love to have something happen here. And I cry. [0:18:00] And then it's over. And I love that. And I know that that's not real but on some level, I think, it's hard not to and I don't know. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yea, sure, of course, of course. Yea, I mean, who wouldn't want that?

CLIENT: I don't know. I guess.

THERAPIST: And in some way, it's I guess I was thinking the movie represents the possibility of it happening in that kind of timeframe.

CLIENT: Yea. And not even the timeframe but that there's a moment that you finally get this thing off of you.

THERAPIST: Get this thing off.

CLIENT: And then by the end of the movie, it was Will and it was all that shit. [0:19:02] Do you know what I mean? That there's a moment where that actually happens where Will takes his hat off or something. And then that goes one way and he goes another way. Do you know what I mean? Even more than the time, the idea of something like that. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea, a moment, a moment that yea.

CLIENT: The virus that you get out of your system or something. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: That there are these two different things that can be pulled apart or something.

THERAPIST: Yes, yea, a cure or something.

CLIENT: Yea, sure. Sure, a cure, a remedy. The whatever the sick is to neurotic whatever healthy would be to the converse of that or something. [0:20:02] Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: That's what you want.

THERAPIST: Yea, I mean, it's a I think it's like a really if I can speaking of health, I think it's a healthy thing the idea of a cure.

CLIENT: The idea of a cure.

THERAPIST: It's probably the thing that helps people keep coming I mean one of the reasons.

-

CLIENT: I mean, it makes me wonder like I've spoken to you about my checking. And how initially it something that was very it seemed very foreign to me. It was like this weird thing that I did. There was checking and there was me when I was younger. Now it's just like (inaudible at 0:21:06). There's no do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: I mean, notice like a cure or something that those are types the idea of being able to think of those two things differently. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Which two things differently?

CLIENT: That maybe I won't do that kind of stuff that there's actually a place where I can see where I end that stuff begins. And I can see that it's the residue of this event or something. And then I can I find it and then get myself away from it or do whatever I have to and then go on with my life. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: It's the formula that I just implicitly have come to think of. Maybe I guess it's what I'm trying to find the thing when I'm here. [0:22:01] And I suppose when I look back on it, that's what I've really been doing, right? I'll talk about something and I want to ask you about to trying to guess from your reaction. Like, "Am I right? Did I find that thing yet that thing that I can then deal with?" You know what I mean? That's what I've been doing, I think, in many ways with you. Is it my parents? Like, can you tell me that? And then I'll talk about it. Maybe that's not right. Maybe that's not it.

THERAPIST: Do you sense that I have hold on an answer or of a sense of...

CLIENT: I don't know. I know that I want you to have an answer in hopes that maybe I might get it out of you. [0:23:02] I imagine you having an answer. Not necessarily because I think you do. But because more I think because I would for it to be the case you have an answer such that there actually was one. If you have one, then there is one type of thing.

THERAPIST: Right, yea.

CLIENT: And I don't know. Maybe that's not maybe I'm looking for the wrong thing or something.

THERAPIST: No. I guess the way I hear it is it's kind of like the fantasy of a cure. It's a very healthy thing in some in my estimation that there's an idea that there's an answer out there. There's some kind of thing. And that becomes kind of an impetus for you to keep looking and wondering. [0:24:00]

Yea, it's located in me in some way or the idea might be that it's located in me. And I have it. But again, I think that's the kind of I got to say I think one thing I'm just thinking about is that I think you've been my fantasy is that you've been burdened by this stuff. And it's been a hard road with these the kind of the checking and the sleep and feeling like it's been taking a toll. It's taken its toll on you. It's a part of who you are. But man, you want it to be easier or you wanted some relief.

CLIENT: My mind, I think I want it to be over. That's the word that comes to my mind. [0:25:00] That's interesting, right? Because...

THERAPIST: Over.

CLIENT: It's over. When is this going to be over?

THERAPIST: It's going to be over.

CLIENT: Is it something that it was me and then this thing started that it's going to stop and I'm going to go on? Do you know what I mean? I think of it not like relief. In my mind it's like when is this going to be over? When is this going to I feel like it's supposed to end for some reason. I feel like that's almost like I have this implicit belief that these things that they will end. Do you know what I mean? That there is going to be something beyond this stuff. There was like a me before my parents split up or something. And then I get back to that whatever that is or something. [0:26:02] Do you know what I mean?

And I just think it's interesting. I'm just interested in thinking of it like that. It just sounds interesting when I say like, when is it going to be over? Like this is an episode. Do you know what I mean? It's the way I've always thought about it.

THERAPIST: Over.

CLIENT: Yea. When is this going to end? That this is a thing. Do you know what I mean? It's going to end when school gets over. It's going to end when I'm done with my (inaudible at 0:26:37) and when I move out from my parent's house. It's going to end when I'm financially independent. Do you know what I mean? Just constantly trying to create that point and make it believable that this stuff is not going to be here forever.

THERAPIST: Forever, yea.

CLIENT: It doesn't have to be here forever. [0:27:00] That I cannot be bothered or burdened by these things. (pause) I guess I don't know if that's like because I want it to be possible. And it's confusing to think about it because I don't even really feel like I want to try to solve it without before I kind of even figure out what it is. Do you know what I mean? I want to just feel unprepared with it. Do you know what I mean? Like a cold that you just you don't go to the doctor for. You just let it run its course. It doesn't do you you know?

THERAPIST: So if it kind of gets works out. Gets done when it needs to when it's out of your system. [0:28:04]

CLIENT: I mean, it's like when I don't like sometimes when I have weird symptoms or pains in my body and I think I'm going to die. I don't go to the doctor because I hope it will play up. But more so because I don't want my doctor to tell me the things that I'm worried about. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea. What would the doctor tell you? The doctor would tell you that you have something wrong?

CLIENT: That you're going to die.

THERAPIST: You're going to die?

CLIENT: Yea, that you're dying. That you have cancer.

THERAPIST: You have cancer, yea.

CLIENT: But you just want to you just want that pain to stop and the whole thing could just end. You just want whatever.

THERAPIST: The pain goes away, then the worry of it the risk of it being cancer of your doctor...

CLIENT: You don't have to think about it. And yea, and it's nothing. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea. [0:29:06] (pause)

CLIENT: I guess in that sense, I would love to be able to I mean, I don't know why always on some level to frame this around thoughts about my parents. I don't know. If even if it's me thinking to myself it's definitely not as simple as it's just my parents. Or it probably has a lot to do with my parents. Or my parents probably something to do with it or have everything to do with it. Or they're even when I'm trying to dismiss the idea that I should think about my experience with my parents, it's still always like the (inaudible at 0:30:04) is always my parents. Even if whether it's we talk about how much it is my parents or not my parents. Do you know what I mean? Which I just find interesting. Whenever I come in here I'm always worried if I should be talking about my parents or if I shouldn't be talking about my parents. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea. And that's the really the thing because the sense that there's a way that I might see like you're doing. You're talking about the thing that's going to get you closer to the answer?

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: OK, good. I see.

CLIENT: And I just think it's interesting that even that it's always in some way, I thought about my parents.

THERAPIST: Yea, right. It comes up as a thought about your parents, yea.

CLIENT: Even if it's me thinking it's not about them or it is about them. [0:31:02]

THERAPIST: Yea, and just ask or wonder would it be helpful for you to know if I thought there was an answer or if I had an answer? Or if I think you should be talking about one thing or another? That would you want is there a sense that I'm being cryptic about it? Or not even cryptic but that I that part of what happens here is you're supposed to guess or something like that? Is that...

CLIENT: I know I'm not supposed to. I know that you don't literally have like...

THERAPIST: OK. (inaudible at 0:31:42).

CLIENT: ...an answer in your mind.

THERAPIST: OK, yea. I'm just making sure.

CLIENT: I mean, that's like the (inaudible at 0:31:51) in the classroom. You know what I mean? Like a test or something. I'm trying to get the right answer or something. I don't genuinely think that. [0:32:00]

THERAPIST: Oh, OK. No, no. That's OK.

CLIENT: I mean, I think I superimpose these things on you.

THERAPIST: Yea, totally.

CLIENT: Because I'm really, really comfortable, right? Because that's what happened in Good Will Hunting. Will didn't talk about his parents through the whole movie. And then they talked about it for like 15 minutes. And it was over. Robin Williams knew it the whole time but he had to wait for him to come to him. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea, yea. (pause)

CLIENT: And so I can't tell like am I cautious around the topic because it's that important? Or do I just want there to be a topic like that? Do you know what I mean? Because it's easy or something. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Right, yea. [0:33:01] And so it's but you're struck by the fact that it's your the divorce that keeps coming to mind. Or the parents, yea.

CLIENT: Yea. It's always some it's always bounce off that or a reaction to that idea.

THERAPIST: Yea. Did or what did you is the fantasy ever that I'm thinking you're not you shouldn't be talking about your parents? Or is always more like...

CLIENT: Sometimes.

THERAPIST: You shouldn't.

CLIENT: Sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's the opposite.

THERAPIST: Yea. I was wondering if it was always like the sense that I really think you always should be talking about your parents but sometimes you don't. And then I'm like why aren't you talk but it could be entire instances where you are talking about your parents, I'm thinking you on the you should be talking something else.

CLIENT: Or it's like almost a why are you viewing this with so much importance? Like that. What's why I don't know. [0:34:02] (pause) And I don't know. (pause) I don't know. Like because I kind of like those appointments where I would just talk about and I guess I feel like I have to have something to talk about why I'm upset about it. That's what I feel like I need to be able to do if I'm going to go at that topic.

I need to be able to talk about it in a way that makes you like I feel very comfortable talking to you about this thing with my mom when she was taking the medicine. I feel a comfortable feeling because I was able to say there's this thing going on and it's making it's really bothering me. And I felt like just felt easier to talk about it. [0:35:00]

And there was like some there were like some times when I would come in, I would just kind of just talk just about things that I remember. And now it's very different from that. Do you know what I mean? There's some reason I just feel comfortable just talking about random memories about a photograph or something that would just come to me. And I feel like that was really valuable. I feel like I just happened for some reason I it would it just made sense to me at that time. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yea, yea.

CLIENT: I feel like it was very valuable when I came in here and talked about cigarettes with you for an hour. [0:36:00] (pause) I don't know. I feel worked up just even just going on about it.

THERAPIST: Well, yea. What are you noticing?

CLIENT: I just feel revved up.

THERAPIST: Yea?

CLIENT: Yea. (pause) I don't know.

THERAPIST: Can you say any more about it?

CLIENT: Well, my words are leaving before my thoughts or something. I don't know. I feel kind of anxious. I feel like yea, I don't know. I don't know. (pause) Because I don't feel powerful trying to have these conversations. I don't feel like in control. I don't feel I don't know. [0:37:05] I'm talking about what I want to be talking about. I don't even know what I want to be talking about. You know what I mean? I don't know. Do you feel like this is really valuable information like the conversation? I feel like this is just a big preface for something. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Well, even your question yea, your question even I think gets at something really important which is it just what just came to me what just came to mind to me was that in a way, I was thinking how by wondering what might be the thing to talk about it in a way kind of keeps you feeling maybe in a zone where you feel kind of paradoxically more comfortable. [0:38:15] As opposed to I think when you I was thinking how you right now you're like, "Am I talking about something that is going to get me somewhere?"

Or when you start to go into just what's coming to mind and feeling how would I put it? I was just struck by what you getting that you mention that you feeling revved up and anxious that in a way you were kind of going into more what you wanted to talk about. Or there would be there's the risk of going more into what you are going to talk what you want to talk about. In that that's a little more uncertain. [0:39:01]

Not first of all, not sure where you're going to go. Secondly, well, I think more not I was thinking maybe not sure where you want to go is the is maybe where I would want to add well, I was going to say since there's been something else. It reminds me of a dream where you reminds me of our conversations around dreaming. And in that I was thinking it might be more comfortable to be wondering where I'm at because of how kind of uncertain and kind of anxiety inducing it is to go I don't know where I'm going to go with it. Does that make sense?

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: I don't know what I I was thinking in a way I don't know what where's your mind going to go if you go, "I want to talk about this." [0:40:01] It's kind of like a dream. Like where's your mind going to go? Without you even really kind of knowing it if that makes sense.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: I was thinking in a way like that this sense of having what should be talked about is in a way kind of relieving in some way. It's kind of I was thinking it's kind of like comforting as opposed to it there's all this uncertainty about where your where you go if you don't have that if you just let yourself go or something.

CLIENT: Oh, completely.

THERAPIST: OK. That makes sense?

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: Yea, OK. Does that seem...

CLIENT: And very comfortable and be very relieved. It would be very calming, absolutely, for certain, definitely. [0:41:02] And it's just weird, right? I just think that the, what should be spoken about thing. It's interesting way...

THERAPIST: It's very deep.

CLIENT: ...to think about it. I'm so concerned about what I should and shouldn't be talking about (inaudible at 0:41:25). I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yea, but the concern, it seems to me, serves that purpose of kind of relieving an anxiety of instead of what happens if you feel you would just let your mind go somewhere.

CLIENT: Yea. No, I've spoken to you about that. I definitely see value in some of my anxieties.

THERAPIST: They're there for a reason.

CLIENT: I see them as being very yea, they're paradoxical because they're anxieties but they're comforting at the same yea, absolutely. [0:42:09] They're both of those things, absolutely. Comfort in where I think I'm getting to would be like anxious about the (inaudible at 0:42:23) or something. (inaudible at 0:42:29) so on and so forth. No, yea, yea, absolutely, yea. And it's inhibitory.

THERAPIST: Yea, just thinking about the idea of leaving things to chance.

CLIENT: Yea, it's not really it's not what I do, really. I don't chance things. [0:43:01] I assume the worst possible thing is going to happen and then I react to that. I assume the house is going to burn down. I don't chance it. And I do whatever you have to do.

THERAPIST: You assume the nightmare.

CLIENT: And it's literally like the thought processes.

THERAPIST: Yea, it keeps the risk of a nightmare happening. Of the nightmare the house burning, the car getting robbed, whatever.

CLIENT: I mean, those are daydreams.

THERAPIST: Yea, daydreams.

CLIENT: Which would happen definitely. Yea. (pause) Do you think I'm an anxious person? [0:44:01] I do.

THERAPIST: Yea, no I see what you're saying. I mean, I there...

CLIENT: I don't think I'm anxious in the way I think some other people are anxious. (inaudible at 0:44:09).

THERAPIST: Yea. I think yea, I would say there's a certain way that there's a lot of anxiety that is in you. And I think it's kind of it serves certain specific functions where there's a lot of ways that you're not anxious at all. Well, not anxious or whatever it is.

CLIENT: No, yea, yea. I know. I see what you're saying.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 0:44:36) anxious.

CLIENT: Yea, it's paradoxical. No, I see. I know exactly what you're saying. (pause) And I left here thinking like, God, I just had a long conversation with you about all this stuff. But and I had that feeling again of like why. [0:45:07] Because I feel concerned that I haven't gotten any closer than that. Maybe that's not about maybe that isn't actually the case but...

THERAPIST: You wonder if we've gotten any closer to the why. Or you've gotten any closer to the why.

CLIENT: Yea. If there's a box in the center of this room and I can just lift open the lid and figure out what's going on. For a year I've been circling around it with you. Just kind of just chatting with you about how the box makes me feel that there's a thing in that box. But not actually gone and opened it up or something. [0:46:04] Maybe that's not the case. Maybe I have. I don't know. But it's that I worry about it. I worry about a lot of things that aren't necessarily realistic. Something that maybe doesn't exactly happen but it seems to feel real. (pause)

THERAPIST: Yea. Well, I guess that the box just makes me think about kind of, well, maybe take your time around a box if you don't know what's inside of it. You don't know what will spring out. [0:47:00] (pause) Yea, I was thinking about a jack-in-the-box. (pause)

CLIENT: Do you think this is slow progress or because that's something that I think about. It's a way to phrase it.

THERAPIST: God, I don't even yea. No, that's a fair question. I'd never until first of all, because I just until you asked the question, I'd even thought about it as in terms of a process that's fast or slow between us. What do you know because something it's always the case. Sometimes I'll feel like, wow, this is really going fast with some individual or something. But I don't that's not something that kind of comes to mind when I think about us. Are we going fast or slow? As I reflect on it. [0:48:04] I don't know. Is it fast or slow?

CLIENT: I mean, saying it's not able to be approached from the angle or frame is an answer because...

THERAPIST: Yea. No, I think it can be. I almost just sort of my answer to that is just like it's the speed it is.

CLIENT: Well, that's helpful because sometimes I do, for moments, wonder if you're frustrated.

THERAPIST: Interesting, really?

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: Anything that I do that kind of gives you that...

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Anything in my demeanor or whatever?

CLIENT: Not really. It's probably just me getting frustrated about it. And I'm getting worried that you might be getting frustrated about it too.

THERAPIST: Well, keep your mind on that and if you notice it. [0:49:05] And if you have any thoughts on it.

CLIENT: I notice it now.

THERAPIST: You can like the feeling like I might be frustrated.

CLIENT: No, no. I feel me feeling frustrated.

THERAPIST: Oh OK, yea. Well, if you notice it in me, let me know, all right? There might be something that you're picking up on in me that I'm not aware of.

CLIENT: You mean just call it up?

THERAPIST: Yes. Say, "God, I just..." Or however you might do it, yea, yea.

CLIENT: I'm cool with it taking a long time. I enjoy this process.

THERAPIST: Yea, I guess that begs the question, what if it was slow or what if it was fast? But yea. And maybe the implication that if it's slow, would I want that to be slow? Or am I in a rush? Am I wanting you to kind of, let's move along? [0:50:01] Will you open the box already, Dan?

CLIENT: It's 6:16. Yea, right, yea. Well, this was helpful, though.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: This was helpful. This was good. This wasn't just this was getting somewhere. I can see that. And until Monday?

THERAPIST: Monday, yes.

CLIENT: Be safe this weekend.

THERAPIST: Yea, thank you.

CLIENT: In all this snow.

THERAPIST: You too.

CLIENT: Looking forward to it.

THERAPIST: You too, yea.

CLIENT: Yea, will do. Thanks.

THERAPIST: You don't have to drive much, do you?

CLIENT: No. I don't think I will have to at all.

THERAPIST: OK.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Yea, Monday.

CLIENT: Take care.

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