TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: I'm also just at the last step of my law school applications which will conclude with a nice, you know, $300 to $400 set of fees.

THERAPIST: What? Application fees and everything? Transcripts?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. You have to do everything. You know anything about applying to law schools?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: I suppose it has something to do with the fact that so many people have successfully cheated and scammed their way in to schools. There's a central body called the Law School Admission Counsel. They administer the LSAC. I think every single bar accredited law school across the country does their admissions through them. So, I won't send anything to the school's I'm applying to. You put your application together through this central body called LSAC and then you notify them who you want to send your application to and they send it off. But, because it goes through them, they charge these abhorrent fees. It's like $160 for the LSAC. $180 to make an account and then like almost $100 for every single school.

THERAPIST: Every single school?

CLIENT: Just about. Because then you have the school's admission fee for every single admission, So, like Northeastern will charge a fee as all schools do and then LSAC will tack another $30 or so, or $25 just to send it out to them. So, I mean, it's just, it's amazing how much money it comes out to. It's astonishing. So, all that being said, I just need to get that stuff paid up and if it's okay, if that's okay with you?

THERAPIST: Yeah, sure. Absolutely. [00:01:44]

CLIENT: Alright. Cool. Then I will do that.

THERAPIST: Okay. Yeah.

CLIENT: You alright with the storm? Everything okay? I feel like that's the only thing I can think about these days.

THERAPIST: Yeah, no everything is...

CLIENT: Did you lose power?

THERAPIST: I did not lose power.

CLIENT: That's good.

THERAPIST: I did not lose power. Yeah, I mean, you know, it was a pain in the neck, but other than that, that's pretty much it. How about you?

CLIENT: It wasn't too bad. We lost power.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah. On Friday night, we lost power right around like 10:30 to 11:00.

THERAPIST: Oh, I didn't hear about that.

CLIENT: We got power back really fast though. We got it back at like probably like 10:00 the next morning. I think there were some folks; there were places I could see that didn't have power until about Sunday afternoon. We were pretty lucky. We were fine. We were good. [00:02:45]

You know, I was thinking about our conversation last time though and I was kind doing what I typically do. I was walking up here and it's such a thing of habit now. I feel like even if I was just in the Square and I wasn't coming to this appointment, but if I walked any part of the route from here to or from the bus to here, just going by like a certain shop and stuff I would start thinking to myself about what am I going to talk to about Kevin today. Like it's just that, I think just it's interesting. When I was doing that, I was thinking about our last conversation a little bit. I just kind of thought to myself. I was thinking to myself, and I think because we spoke about it a little bit last time, how much I really enjoyed some of the conversations when we were just talking like about my like dad and my family and stuff and for some reason we kind of got off that. [00:03:50]

There were a couple, I think there was like a month where we were kind of on that topic, more or less, consistently and then for some reason we stopped or I stopped. I was thinking about how much I really enjoyed those conversations and I was almost thinking about it like it was like an opportunity I had that I lost or something. For some reason, like I remember I've said to you, for some reason, maybe just if conversations just kind of find themselves there, I find myself feeling uniquely comfortable and able to talk about it. Do you know what I mean? Like, for some reason for that month, I just felt...

THERAPIST: It was okay to talk about.

CLIENT: Yeah. It was okay or something. It just, whatever makes it typically difficult to think about talking about it wasn't there.

THERAPIST: Oh. I see. Okay.

CLIENT: I don't know really exactly what, what it was. When I was walking here, I kind of thought to myself like oh, like that, that was great when that was happening.

THERAPIST: Oh. I see.

CLIENT: As if like, as if there was like legitimately something different about that time. As if there was some circumstance that was like significantly different or something. I almost had like a nostalgic thought about it for a moment. It was very brief, but it was just interesting to me. [00:05:30]

THERAPIST: But it was a good time?

CLIENT: Yeah. And I just started thinking to myself like oh god, like it was really nice when I could just come in here and just talk about that stuff. I liked the conversations and I even remember it was right around when, it was right around the time that one of the conversations about money was coming up. I think I had to maybe it was when the health insurance said they were going to stop doing two times a week. I remember thinking to myself like that really sucks that that's happening right now because I feel like this is like so good. Like, the momentum. You know what I mean? And then when I was sitting out there in the waiting room, I was just like, you know, I just, I guess when I was, I was sitting in the waiting room and I was thinking about the way I was thinking about it. I was reflecting on like this weird feeling I had like that was out of reach now or something. You know what I mean? I guess I just kind of thought to myself maybe we should just start talking about it again, just because I want to. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And for some reason when I was thinking about it out there, I was able to just kind of hop over whatever little barrier seemed to be there and me just being interested and wanting to talk about it just seemed like enough. I don't know if this makes any sense to you. [00:07:10]

THERAPIST: Well, it makes me think that in some way the insurance, the second meeting being in peril, what that all meant to you might have been, might have had an impact on you. It might have had an impact about what was happening here.

CLIENT: It made me, it made me imagine like, oh, maybe I'm going to start doing this less and getting to where we were at. I just remember explicitly thinking that's too bad because these are some of like the most enjoyable conversations I've been having after, you know, a year or whatever. I was like that would be really a shame if right when we get to this point it had to kind of back up a little bit, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: But, I don't know. I was sitting out there and I don't know I kind of laughed. I was just like couldn't we just start? For some reason, me just thinking to myself that's something that I want to talk about just seemed like enough in a way.

THERAPIST: To get over that barrier. That whatever it was that it meant to you. [00:08:20]

CLIENT: Yeah. It seems really simple, right, but it felt very different for me. It felt very, very different. I guess that's the only way I can put it. The fact that I just kind of wanted to go there just seemed like enough or whatever. So, I guess that's just what I want to do.

THERAPIST: Yeah. To talk about your dad? Have a conversation like we had?

CLIENT: Yeah and talk about my, talk about my experience with my family. For some reason right now I feel comfortable. I'm not concerned about like whether or not it's the appropriate thing to be talking about. The way like last appointment I feel like all I spoke about when I was here, like I have many times, was how anxious I get sometimes when I kind of point in that direction.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yes. Yeah. [00:09:25]

CLIENT: But I guess right now I just feel comfortable saying it's just something I want to, I want to do. In a way, I can say I almost don't even care. I'm not really that concerned, relatively speaking, with whether or not you think that's. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't know. Maybe. I realized our last conversation was really helpful in that sense. You really helped me kind of get my hands on some of these things.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: Which is funny, because like I said to you, by the end of it, I felt like I imagined you thinking like oh, maybe this is just a waste of time or something, you know?

THERAPIST: That's how you were feeling?

CLIENT: Sort of. A little bit. I mean, yeah. Kind of. Like, how I explained to you like sort of just like oh, why don't we just get in to it instead of just talking about how nervous kind of this topic makes you or something? You know what I mean? It makes me wonder maybe that was actually kind of productive given where I am at right now. I prefer to think there's some relationship between the two. [00:10:40]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I would say yeah. I would say so, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. I guess I'd like to just, I think one thing that we talked about a long time ago, and I think we might have brought it up at like the end of an appointment and maybe never really dug in to it. One thing that stands out to me about those conversations was like that conversation I had with you about that photograph of my dad that my mom took where he was standing next to his father. Do you remember this?

THERAPIST: Yes. Sure.

CLIENT: Yeah. Where he... Yeah. I guess, just to explain it again, my mom was just saying that, when you look. I mean my mom, like I told you, she has like an encyclopedia of pictures. It's incredible how many photographs she took with this kind of hand held like film camera back in the day.

THERAPIST: Was it a Polaroid? [00:12:00]

CLIENT: No. I mean I guess hand held, obviously. I think of like cameras on phones now and stuff. No, it was like a film one. You know what I mean? I just think to myself how much money she must have spent developing all that film which seems so passé. Like, you know, those big kind of photo albums?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: You know, they're like this big and have like six pictures on a page?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: She has like 15 to 20 of them full. Overflowing. She has multiple pictures in each slot. You know, yeah, she was crazy with taking pictures. Like, I told you, it has the interesting effect given that she's the only one who is really, really adamant about always taking photographs that she's almost in none of them because she was taking every single one of them.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: What you notice when you start to look through them a little bit is a lot of pictures of my dad, which is interesting too. You know, not so many of her with him. Then, you know, then there was this one picture when my grandparents came when I was very, very young. My dad was standing next to his father and they looked so, they looked like two, like, prepubescent adolescent boys who are sitting next to each other and like don't want to get too close to each other and don't want to show any intimacy with each other. Their arms are like tightly crossed. They're standing next to each other. There's like a comfortable, you know, 6 inches in between them. You could have split the picture in half and it would have looked like one of them was posing by themself. [00:13:50]

You know, my mom was saying I always used to try to get them to put their arms around each other. She was very, she was very controlling when like posing for pictures. She would always move people around. You know, so, like, I can imagine this huge probability she said put your arms around each other and they probably just got tighter, you know, away from each other and just wouldn't.

THERAPIST: Protest.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean neither of them looked like they were waiting for the other one to do it or something. Like, they just looked like, I don't know. I'd love to find the picture and show it to you some time. I would really love to just so you can even see a picture of my dad. Yeah. I think I told you it was like a very, it was like a weird kind of vulnerability that you can even see in my dad that I don't see in him very much today. [00:15:00]

It really stood out to me, even more with age, when I came to realize how often my friends would pick up on how kind of touchy my dad was with me and how affectionate he was. How often, how much he would put his arm around me. You know, exactly the way my mom couldn't get him to do with his dad. A lot of people have said, have mentioned that to me after seeing me and my dad together. They would say things like, you know, wow, your dad really loves you. It's so evident just seeing him around you. Like, he hugs you and stuff.

THERAPIST: And for you?

CLIENT: I remember when people would say that to me. I would think initially I would be like yeah, my dad does do that a lot. You know, more so when other people are around, but, you know, after someone would say that to me I would think to myself yeah, you're right, he does do that. And I guess I just sort of assumed like my dad does, he really does love me a lot. [00:16:30]

But it never... I don't know. I always felt like they were attaching some importance to it that I didn't necessarily. They would draw the conclusion, my god, he really, really loves you. And completely separate from the question of whether or not I thought my dad really loved me, it just didn't seem, like if I had made a list of the reasons why my dad really loves me, I could probably do so, but that would never be on it. You know what I mean? It always seemed to me more a reflection of their own experience with their parents. You know?

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Because it was only a few people too. This is like a rule without exception that it was always people who I know who had very, very distant and trying relationships with their fathers and I pick up on it. So, I always kind of imagined that it was them kind of reacting to that a little bit.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. And in some way didn't the physical affection he showed you didn't really match their, the way that you felt about it or took it in did not match their kind of narrative that were, they're telling? [00:17:40]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. And particularly because I would even think to myself sometimes like, yeah, but I would never say this because I didn't really know what to make of it. No one does that. You know? I didn't really know. I kind of would think that. It always kind of shocked me to the point where people would say it and I would just be like oh, yeah. Yeah. I guess so. It's really weird. And I think because I'm so aware too that the people saying it were people who had like really, really unfortunate relationships with their dads. Like, just nasty, nasty. You know, like, in court. Just horrible. You know, situations when it comes to parents. In a way I think it kind of reinforced in me hearing those people say it that like, that wasn't my experience. You know, I talked to you about how much I would kind of frame my interpretation of what happened with my family based upon this image I had of like all my friends. Like, they went through divorce. And when I would even hear some of them say to me like oh, wow, looks great when you're with your parents, I can see how it would play in to that.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yes. [00:19:00]

CLIENT: I always kind of uneasily accepted it because I just didn't. I don't know. I never really investigated it. I definitely began to notice more and more the way that like when other people were around, my dad would be very, very, kind of affectionate and then I would notice even more when people weren't around how kind of almost like the way that he would be with his dad, almost. Like, there would be like a little barrier between us. Physically and emotionally. You know what I mean? Just kind of in general. So, it kind of even magnified that a little bit.

THERAPIST: The contrast between the public and private?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Right. [00:20:00]

CLIENT: You know, there's even times I can remember thinking to myself like when I would go up to my dad's for a weekend. I never really thought this through, but I always kind of just was a little happier if there was going to be someone else around. Typically, like one of his girlfriends. You know? And I think particularly because I knew that in those situations there would, you know, maybe less than wanting that like kind of super affectionate kind of approach that he would take to me when other people were around. I think even more than that, I knew that it wouldn't be kind of just like when it was me and him. You know what I mean? I would, I came to like almost suggest to my dad like oh, isn't someone else coming over to hang out with us when I come up or something? You know? [00:21:00]

THERAPIST: That was something that existed there when the two of you were private that was uneasy?

CLIENT: Yeah. Just uncomfortable.

THERAPIST: Uncomfortable?

CLIENT: Awkward could be a good way to put it.

THERAPIST: Awkward. Yeah.

CLIENT: A little tense even.

THERAPIST: So, it did have some of those elements of the photograph in some way?

CLIENT: I suppose in a weird way. Yeah. No, I mean yeah. Yeah, definitely. Whatever was going on in that little space between my dad and his grandpa, something along those lines.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. That something altered when there would be a third party there.

CLIENT: Yeah. Oh yeah. There was always a woman too. There was always a woman. I always imagined that it was my dad trying to display to the people around him that he was a good dad. Even when he would do stuff like that, you know, he would kind of put his arms around me, he would always be looking at the other person. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Not looking at you?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: How would you feel about it? I'm kind of curious how would you feel about the physical affection when he would actually, you know, hug you, touch you? What would it, what would it be like for you? [00:22:40]

CLIENT: That's funny just because before people, so few people would ever make comments about it, but they really stuck out. Before they did I just, it just didn't. I had no awareness of it. It was like a thing and I never paid attention to it. I became more attentive to it afterwards and then, I don't know. I felt kind of in vandalizing. I don't know the kind of thing you'd blush about a little bit, I guess.

THERAPIST: What would he do? How would he show affection to you?

CLIENT: He would be talking. He'd be asking me what's going on and I would say stuff about school and he would just kind of do like the rubbing my back. I mean things like, things just so innocuous to have someone else just sitting there. They probably wouldn't, I mean I guess in some instances they did.

THERAPIST: Obviously they noticed, right? [00:24:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean some people did I guess, but. Things that wouldn't be wholly uncommon to occur, you know, for a father and a son, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know.

THERAPIST: You found it somewhat infantilizing.

CLIENT: I mean in a way. In kind of a, I know that word seems to denote like something that's like frustrating you don't like to feel infantilized, typically, I don't think and in a way it was that. You know. I don't know. I suppose I kind of, you know, I suppose I liked it in some ways too. Right? I mean why wouldn't someone like that? You know? Like feel loved and, you know? I think it's not, it's not a bad thing at the end of the day. You know?

THERAPIST: You know you liked it in some ways.

CLIENT: I suppose, yeah. I suppose it felt good. Yeah. But, I guess it was always kind of a conditional good. In so far as when he would start to do it, I would, you know, he would do it and I, at the time I would increasingly not be able to think about the fact that he's only doing this like in certain situations. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:25:30]

CLIENT: So, it would feel good, but in the back of my mind, I would have like, and I was just skeptical that there was something.

THERAPIST: Sure. Sure. You noticed it.

CLIENT: Yeah. It was. It was, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. How could you not?

CLIENT: It wasn't like an absolute. You know. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, it's just bizarre in that way, I guess.

THERAPIST: I wondered if it, did it feel, you know, even though it was, he was different, he was different when the two of you were together alone did it, and there's the kind of the question was he doing it as kind of a show of kind of affection to other people? But did it feel genuine to you? Did it feel authentic? What did it feel like? [00:26:35]

CLIENT: Genuine? Authentic? I mean I guess it would be hard for me to answer. I guess, I mean, I've said to you, I never, I've never genuinely felt concerned that my dad didn't love me or that he didn't want me around for some reason. That I was, I never felt that I was a burden on him the way I think like the Hollywood image of like the dad who is pissed that he has to pay child support. You know, I mean? I never felt that. I always felt loved by him in some way. I don't even really know what I mean when I say that word. I guess I more than meaning something specific, I guess I just, I never felt that other thing. Like the dad who is just pissed that he has to have his kid for the weekend or something. [00:27:40]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I never felt that. So, in that sense, it felt genuine. I didn't feel like it was a lie on that level.

THERAPIST: Got it. Okay. Yeah. That's what I was kind of getting to.

CLIENT: But what didn't feel genuine was the fact that I knew it wouldn't happen when someone else wasn't around. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That was the limit.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: The more I thought about it, the more that, you know, the more that's all I could think about in those instances.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I see.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Well, at the very, at the very least, it must have raised questions about what happened. What is happening between us when we're alone? Definitely you notice like a difference in the two of you, between the two of you, that existed.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean it's, I mean it's not even something I would speculate. I mean it's just, it's just, it's very obvious.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:28:45]

CLIENT: That when we're alone it's...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I think if he were being honest, he would probably. You know, I don't think it escapes him either.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I think we even spoke about it. I think we even, you know, possibly a while ago. That this...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: At least for me that, you know, when it's just he and I, like this, you know, there's this there's no other third person here trying to overrun. There's no kind of thing for us both to be looking at. You know, as opposed to looking at each other. At least for me, there's my frustration with him. You know? And that's, that's just sort of like floating kind of in between and it, it gets picked up on. Whether it's him picking up on it or me picking up on it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But at least for me, I would say that it's definitely more salient. [00:30:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

LIENT: The reason I liked having other people around, it was very evident to me and it still is. That it's, it's, it's the reason I like it is because it makes things easier. It's not that I like the other person, but it's always because it's avoiding something. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. No. It changes the, it goes from a dyad to the triad, you know, if you, if you want to put it one way in terms from a just a, you know, yeah, a dyadic unit or something to now it's a whole different kind of set up with three or more or whatever with a third party. Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, when I guess it's just me and him there's just an elephant in the room.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: It's, it's not entirely conscious. It's not sometimes you only know it's there because you feel the uneasiness of it more than you know even what it is, but.

THERAPIST: Yeah, in some way too that it wasn't spoken about. Not that it, it had to be, but it was, it was something that maybe was, well, I don't know if unconscious is the right word, but it was something implicit about the relationship that wasn't, it wasn't stated or declared or sort of clarified. [00:31:35]

CLIENT: Yeah. It was almost phenomenally conscious.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Right. Right. I know.

CLIENT: You know. It was almost like extra conscious. You know how conscious is. Yeah. Like on the tip of, it's like on the tip of my tongue or something.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. I suppose that's what makes me really frustrated when I'm with him sometimes.

THERAPIST: What do you notice?

CLIENT: It's frustrating. Again, when I was with him last time, you know, him being like, I mean not only the conversation with my mom. Like, he's not calling my mom back. You know? Something as simple as that. I want to, you know, I want to lash out at him about that. Particularly when, you know, because when we're alone we have these kind of just routine talking points that we just go through. You know, how's your mom? How's your grandparents? How's so and so? You know what I mean? How's school? How's work? You know. And, you know, even like when he would say things, you know, about, you know, my grandparents or saying, you know, it's important for you to stay in touch with them and stuff. Which always comes out, but I think just because it's like a routine thing for us to touch on.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. It made my, it made my blood boil.

THERAPIST: Yes. Yes. [00:33:15]

CLIENT: You know, because I've got this thing in my head that's like, you know, I'm angry. I'm angry enough that you're not getting back in touch with mom, but like it brings it to a different level when I have to hear you try to dictate to me how to like keep in touch with my family and stuff. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. There's that tension.

CLIENT: Yeah, that makes it phenomenally, you know, but it, that can't be said for some reason. You know? You can't go there. You know? It just is, you just can't do it. You know?

THERAPIST: What do you mean when you say you can't, you can't go there. What do you mean?

CLIENT: You just, you just, I don't know. I'll just like what comes in to my head you don't, you just can't do it.

THERAPIST: It can't be spoken then?

CLIENT: It's...

THERAPIST: Don't go there. Don't go there.

CLIENT: You just don't. You don't do it. It's not. I don't know. I believe we spoke about it and we hypothesized reasons why maybe I've a long time ago had kind of lines drawn around what you talk about and what you don't. I don't know why it is that way, but it's just, you know. With a little certainty that's like as clear as you don't put your hand on a stove. Like, you don't. You don't, you just don't do it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's not contestable. It's not even, it's not even like you don't do it unless you really have to. It's just like, it's not even in that realm.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Putting your hand on a hot stove.

CLIENT: You just don't do that. Your body won't let you do that. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: It's counter intuitive? [00:35:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. You would spill a bunch of water on you to avoid doing it. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You would take some other hit to avoid doing it, because it's that important to avoid.

THERAPIST: Well, yeah. And I mean I guess just to say maybe in the, in the context of your relationship with your father it wasn't a good idea to talk about it with. You know, in some way that it was like putting your hand on a hot stove. It aroused a lot of his, something inside of him whether it was anger or frustration or something that he would be feeling in response to it. Almost a way then for you to not, to not bring it up to him in some ways a way to kind of keep him in check. Kind of keep him from the heat going on the stove. Keep the stove cool and off. Cool. Everything's cool. [00:36:08]

CLIENT: Yeah. In my mind, like when I'm sitting there with my dad, I go up on Friday and leave on Saturday. Someone's hanging out with us on Friday night for dinner and then it's Saturday and it's just me and my dad waking up and having breakfast. Like, that's when this is happening what I'm explaining to you. It's like over breakfast on Saturday. I know I'm leaving Saturday night and in my mind it's like, you know, it's like holding your breath until 5:00 and then you can leave. Like, that's, that's what you do.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That's what I do. That's what is, that's what is done. You know?

THERAPIST: Manage it yourself. Yeah. Manage it yourself. That's the simmering kind of feeling.

CLIENT: Yeah. Doing the thing that you really don't have to do when you're there. Holding your breath. You know. It's getting through. Getting through this trip or something.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And that's, and you know it's not going to, and you know once you leave it's going to be a relief and, you know, I guess in that sense without ever really thinking about it, I always knew I was, that there was some like emotional tax that came with being at my dad's house without ever really investigating it. I kind of knew that. And I would kind of schedule it and he would try to like plan leaving at a time that he thought was like feasible. You know what I mean?'

THERAPIST: Yes. [00:37:40]

CLIENT: Or if I had someone else there, maybe I could spend a little longer. You know what I mean? But, I always kind of approached it from that perspective. Even before I really even thought about the things we're talking about. I mean like in the conversations that we have here, like it makes it even more difficult, you know? The way we're talking about it now, I never even thought of it. I never thought this thoroughly about it. You know, it was just kind of like yeah hanging out with the parents, that sucks just because it does. You know what I mean? I never even really thought. Like, I'm, we're imagining possibilities of me actually like saying something to my dad about why it frustrates me that he tells me things about how to deal with my grandparents when I'm angry at him with how he deals with my mom.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:38:50]

CLIENT: I've never even like had like the thought in my head such that I could act it out.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: So it brings it back. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: When come up with things like that here, it makes it more difficult. Now I feel like I have like a loaded gun in my pocket. You know what I mean? Which I never even had. You know what I mean? And it makes it more difficult. I guess because I'm still committing myself to the goal of just like getting to 5:00. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yes. Right. Almost like now, it's almost better in some ways to get through it if you know there's a gun in your pocket or if there's not a gun in your pocket.

CLIENT: Well, then, you know, yeah. Then it's just an uncomfortable couple of hours as opposed to like a potentially uncomfortable eternity.

THERAPIST: No one wants uncomfortable. Yeah.

CLIENT: Or like you know it exists and then you can talk about it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And then it's like then it could be uncomfortable forever with my dad.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. And then you won't even have the Friday night beforehand where it's comfortable. You know? [00:40:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. In some way then, you suffice by keeping the gun in the pocket, you're kind of keeping alive something that happens on Friday that's good. You're minimizing. You're mitigating things. You're keeping things dampened as opposed to stoking the flames. Well, yeah I guess, I guess maybe too that stoking the flames runs the risk of kind of burning everything up.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Everything good and bad.

CLIENT: Like the way I think of it I heard this when I was in Sunday school when I was really young, but it's exactly what I think about it. It's like they were giving some lesson about why you should think carefully about what you say before you say it. You know what I mean? Before you say something hurtful to people, I remember they used this metaphor and I think I've said it to you. You know, you get some toothpaste out of a bottle. You can squeeze it out really quickly, but you can't get toothpaste back in to a toothpaste tube afterwards. It's out forever. You know?. That's exactly what I, if I said something like that to my dad I would, it would be lingering between us like forever. That's what I imagine. You know what I mean? Like it would not be a thing that we had like an argument about and then resolved. It does not lend itself to that possibility. You know? [00:41:25]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: And we've spoken about that and that's something worth, for some reason, in my mind it's worth avoiding it at whatever cost. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And having these lines of thought in my head just become, you know, it's like putting my hand on the toothpaste bottle.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You just, it's that much easier for you now to do that thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah. No. It's in a way, it's a way that you're thinking. Like, you've got articulated known thoughts about what's happening inside of you. In some way to not know is a somewhat, it's a somewhat adaptation I guess you're saying in that situation.

CLIENT: I was just thinking that. I mean this makes a lot of sense as to why maybe I've never even allowed myself to think about it.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Because I've thought about it pretty briefly here with you.

THERAPIST: Didn't take much, right, to start?

CLIENT: And a tiny bit of thinking about it seems to present this very disproportionately large level of dangerousness.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. You know, I've got to say what it reminds me of to, just to, I don't know how to tie, you know, makes sense to tie it in, but the dream, the dream you had. The dream that you remembered. The dream that you remembered about me that you were able to think about and recall and well, like thoughts you can't unthink them.

CLIENT: Yeah, they're toothpaste out of the bottle. That's right. [00:43:00]

THERAPIST: You said to me. You even said it to me. And you can't get it, you can't get it back. You can't get it back. Yeah.

CLIENT: So, then what happens? What happens between us then after that's out? There's a lot more certainty with keeping it hidden.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. So, I can see where you, yeah. I mean you're alluding to the, to the question of like what kind of room is there? Yeah. I mean it's, it's questioning my assumption that once I mention this stuff it's going to be like world war three, four and five. You know?

THERAPIST: Well, among other things, yeah.

CLIENT: Which I think is a helpful thing to think about.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Because it is just like, that is like the most.

THERAPIST: It's quite absolutely. [00:44:10]

CLIENT: Yeah. It's, yeah, it's hard to explain these things to you. Like it's something that just doesn't even seem. Like there's some things I just, that just seem inevitable or seem potentially overcoming. Like, it seems inevitable to me that there's probably going to be another mass war between the powers of the world. However, idealistic it might be, I think there's a way we can maybe get over it. I don't think it's going to happen, but it is possible we might be able to get over it. It's inevitable the sun's going to set tonight. I don't think that's something we can get over. So, I don't even consider the possibility of imagining ways to change that. Like, that's the way, the ladder is the way I think about this. There's no, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That might not be. I suppose that might not be helpful. I suppose maybe. I won't say it's not helpful. I suppose that might be worth opening up.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. I understand that. Very, very certain. Yeah, it's taken on a very deep degree of certainty that it wouldn't work out. Once you have something between you and your dad and something difficult to say that there's kind of a certain air around it.

CLIENT: It's the opposite and equal reaction. You know, it's like the law of physics. You know, I say one thing, there's going to be a thing back, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: A thing back, yes. [00:45:45]

CLIENT: It's like you throw a ball in the air and it comes back. You know, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: It just holds that kind pattern of obvious thought.

THERAPIST: Yeah, you're almost aiming the gun at yourself then.

CLIENT: Practically. Yeah. Yeah. In a way. You're shooting yourself in the foot, right? That was good. Thank you. Then I will see you on Thursday.

THERAPIST: I will see you on Thursday. Yeah.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Everything worked out with that form and everything?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. It did. Hey, did you end up taking the T here or did you park?

CLIENT: I took the bus. I got on the bus at about 8:30. It was like a stop. There was like a delay every single stop.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah. It's going very, very slow today.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Thanks. Alright.

CLIENT: Why, was there?

THERAPIST: I'm just kind of wondering for, for people that are coming and parking what it's like for people.

CLIENT: I think that the parking ban came up at 7 this morning.

THERAPIST: Oh, is that right?

CLIENT: It may have. I'm not sure.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: They're still on I think.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Alright. Take care.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

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