TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But, yeah, I guess it just, it, I found myself, you know, just kind of uncomfortable with that. And I found myself feeling uncomfortable with how much I felt like I really, really liked it. That maybe I wouldn't. I guess not even maybe, but I guess I felt uncomfortable with the fact that I felt like I wanted like more of that. You know what I mean? Because that's not what, like what I say to you is that I have my fantasies of like excommunicating my father from my life. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: And I don't usually, I don't usually think too much about it from the perspective of me wanting more.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And even the thing with my dad. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I guess just that how much that stood out to me just seemed bizarre. You know what I mean? [00:01:30]

THERAPIST: Like it didn't go with this other kind of, these feeling you've been noticing around. Yeah. Sometimes I feel like I just want him out and how do you, how do you reconcile that with this feeling of it feeling really good to have him, have the interaction go well and to know you wanted more?

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean even modify it a little bit and what I was sort of thinking to myself was not like oh, sometimes I really want him out and sometimes it feels good. It was almost more. I guess it just called in to question more if I'm just more comfortable with thinking that I want him out. As opposed to if I even genuinely feel it. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I don't know. I guess it was a reaction I wasn't expecting. I mean I feel like I wasn't really sure what I was. I guess I feel like I had a sense of comfort or understanding seemed a little bit wrought. You know what I mean? I've never had the idea that I ever felt like I didn't get enough of that kind of stuff from my dad. You know what I mean? Like the fact that it felt so good for him to say something really congratulatory to me and the fact that I seemed to like that so much. It just, it seemed like what someone does who doesn't get enough of that or something. You know what I mean? That's not just my image of what's going on between us. You know? In essence, it didn't fit. [00:03:20]

THERAPIST: Yes. I see.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: You don't think of yourself as someone as wanting much from your dad and that. Is that what you mean?

CLIENT: Yeah or I don't think of myself as someone who feels like they're not loved or something. You know what I mean? It's like that's kind of what it felt like in a little, tiny instance there. You know, like, that's what I, you know, found my dad congratulating me on something.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it's connected with those kind of larger things, but like I think I've even said to you, like before we even really got in to me talking about my parents that I think I just sort of prefaced and said wherever this goes, it's not the case that I never felt loved or anything. I felt too loved. You know what I mean? [00:04:25]

THERAPIST: Oh, right.

CLIENT: You know, you remember when I said something like that?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: Like, I never felt, you know, I felt almost like over crowded more than like starved or something, you know. But I guess in that little moment I just sort of, it's like if that was the case then why, why would something like this feel oh, so good, but also so kind of like unique, you know? It reminded me of when we were young. When I was really, really young. I would come home and do my homework and like particularly like on Mondays. As I was telling you a little while ago, Monday's were my day with my dad. That was the day he was home. I always associated that with Mondays. It was always a little bit more regimented. It was always a little bit more. I just never really looked forward to it. You know? And when I would have homework, you know, I think I would come home from piano practice and I would do my homework because it was sort of laid out for me that's what you did. You do it before bed. He was very kind of structured in a way. And I would do my homework and he would always have me write it up and he would look at it. Typically, what he would do is he would say I know you can do better on this. Go back and do it again. You know? I can remember it like when I was learning how to write. If, you know, the letters weren't right he would send me back to do it again and I would do it over and over again. [00:06:15]

Then I did remember when I started to do, and my mother never did that kind of stuff. That was always something that only my dad did. I always kind of thought of it that way. When I got a little bit older and I started to do math, you know, I think I had a little bit of trouble with math sometimes. And he would do the same thing. He would try to help me with it and then he would try to explain some things to me that I wasn't understanding. And for whatever reason, it would get tense between us. If I didn't get things. It wasn't, he wouldn't get mad at me if I got it wrong, but he would try to explain some things and be like this is how this works and I wouldn't get it and I think he would, things would just get a little bit tense. He wouldn't get mad at me, but I felt like he was getting a little bit frustrated. Eventually, it got to the point where he said something along the lines of, you know, maybe this is something better for you and your mom to do. Maybe I'm not good at kind of explaining this to you. I guess I just I thought of that moment like when I read that e-mail from my dad last night and I had never really thought about that since. You know what I mean? I felt like we, we did that again. You know? He said we're not going to do homework anymore. [00:08:00]

THERAPIST: Yes. Yes.

CLIENT: It doesn't work and I really don't think he did all that much afterwards. But, I thought about that briefly.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Sure. That's acquired, kind of. I mean it sounds like that's what actually you might have been unconsciously expecting.

CLIENT: Yeah. It makes sense along those lines, I guess.

THERAPIST: Thinking that somehow like you, you come bring me your work and then you kind of get frustrated and you feel like what. You get this response about of like him kind of I can't help you so much. This isn't, this could be better or something.

CLIENT: Yeah. It could be better, but I can't help you. That was like exactly the sentiment.

THERAPIST: The one meaningful interaction now for you. Yeah.

CLIENT: And I mean and I can show you the e-mail. It was so, it literally was. I sent him the, this draft that I was working on and I said it's a little bit late. We can talk about it tomorrow if you want and he just e-mailed me back and said how you doing? I like it a lot. Talk tomorrow. Love, dad. Yeah. [00:09:20]

THERAPIST: And you were hit by a feeling of liking it and feeling good about it. Is that it?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I was hit even more by my uneasiness that, like I would feel it and then I would start to feel confused as to why it kind of felt so good. You know what I mean? I like the idea that I don't care what my dad thinks because I can, I can talk for days about how we can go through ideas. You know what I mean? I think there's something a little bit easier and less kind of uncertain about that. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Right. [00:10:20]

CLIENT: Yeah and it's funny because, you know, I hadn't really thought about this, but right before I left here, one of my professors wrote a letter of recommendation for me. She wrote it and then she submitted it to this LSAC. The people that deal with the applications. She said that she mailed me a hard copy of it and she said that's what I always do when I write people letters of recommendation. Even though they waive their right to see it she said, I just like to let people, you know, read it. You know, nice to read nice things about yourself. And I read it and I mean it was a, I was really kind of at a loss for words. I mean she spoke very, very, very highly of me. For some reason, what I did, the first thing I did, was I went and I scanned a copy of it and I sent it to my dad. You know? And I just said oh, you know, I thought you maybe you'd be interested in reading this, dad. And I did send it. And my mom, my mom, you know, if I told her it was in the house she'd probably break in to find it and read it. You know what I mean? My dad would never even ask about it. But for some reason I just sort of charged right to sending it off to my dad. [00:11:50]

THERAPIST: Well, what do you make of it?

CLIENT: I didn't make anything of it at the time, but now that I'm thinking about it, I suppose, I suppose I couldn't imagine him not reacting to it in a way that would sort of elicit from me a response similar to me reading that e-mail last night. You know what I mean? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know.

THERAPIST: I can sense that there's something about kind of the emerging awareness of this and through these kind of gestures with your dad that make it a little uncomfortable with the idea of like you wanting that from your dad. Wanting some kind of recognition and appreciation. You know, kind of wanting him to recognize in you, you know, you know, mind and intellect, potential, what's already actually there. Yeah, as you were saying, like that goes against your, your ownership of I don't care what my dad thinks. [00:13:30]

CLIENT: Yeah. Something has led me to construct some understanding of what's going on between us where I'm more comfortable with. I'm more sort of dismissive. It doesn't mean anything to me. You know, for some reason, without me knowing it, I gravitate towards that, without anything else sort of, you know, holding its head up. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I guess it makes me wonder like why that felt so good for him to say that. In the moment I felt like a little, little kid. You know? You know, like dad is this good? Is this good? You know? And it felt weird and I felt like I didn't want to like admit that I really wanted that. You know? [00:14:40]

THERAPIST: What about wanting that from him? I mean aside from it goes against?

CLIENT: Because if I wanted it I didn't, I mean, to begin with, if I wanted it, then it's something that I want. It's something that I'm lacking. That's not what I think. That's not what I say at least. You know?

THERAPIST: Yes. Yeah. That it goes against the idea that you already got enough. Is that what you mean?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I don't feel like fully loved by my dad. That, that just seems so ludicrous to me to even say for some reason. But, that's like the far reaching inference that it makes that just seem ludicrous.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know. But then also, it's why, why does it feel so good to hear it from him? You know what I mean? It would suggest that he's a person that I value and look up to and want acceptance from and validation from. You know? And I know that is me to the tee in so many other instances. You know what I mean? I'm very aware that like that comes in to play a lot like with my thesis. You know, I was totally aware of the fact that I was very, very preoccupied with wanting to impress them, like in a very explicitly aware way. You know what I mean? [00:16:30]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: There's no mystery to me.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Because, because I know that they think so highly. You know what I mean? Like, those things are very clear to me. And I guess I don't want to feel like anything along those lines was taking form between me and my dad. You know? I don't know.

THERAPIST: What don't you know?

CLIENT: I guess I just don't even really know what, what to do with that. You know? I'm going to think about that. It feels uncomfortable to loosen up, you know, with things and think about that. You know? [00:18:00]

THERAPIST: What's going on? Were you just thinking of something?

CLIENT: I mean, it's just the more I think about it, the harder it is to avoid thinking that. You know, mixed in with what I think are really justifiable and understandable things.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: That alongside of it there's actually like, I don't know, like the opposite of that. You know? A kind of loving type of a father son relationship, you know? And maybe one that I really want or something. You know what I mean? I guess because I almost like for me to feel like I can be angry at my dad I have to, it has to be true to those things or something. You know what I mean? It seems too ambiguous. As if one... [00:20:00]

THERAPIST: One shouldn't be there with the other.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think we've even kind of touched on this from different angles. Like, when I read that e-mail, I didn't think anything differently about how angry I am at my dad for like some of the things he's done to my mom right now. None of that changed. But, then if it's the case that I really, you know, really value and feel great when sort of those little things like that. It's like why would I feel that way about someone who's doing something like that to my mom?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Why do you think?

CLIENT: I don't know. I mean, I shouldn't care about what he thinks because, you know, I just, you know, for one, this isn't bad in so many ways. You know? Why would I care? Why should I care? You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Like in a way you're finding even though he's actively going through some stuff with your mother and you really don't like it. Disgusting I guess it feels in some way. It doesn't negate the feelings you had yesterday. You said the feelings you had yesterday doesn't make you forget about the stuff that's going on between him and your mom. The reverse is true. At least in this instance. There's a sense of like, that doesn't, that didn't wash out my feelings about liking that and wanting more of that and wanting more of his, his kind of affirmation. An affirmation of you. Yeah. [00:22:00]

CLIENT: I mean I guess maybe it's not even the conflict between the two.

THERAPIST: No?

CLIENT: It's like my confusion with the fact that there seems to be no conflict.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: That's almost like.

THERAPIST: Yeah. There's no conflict, right?

CLIENT: That, yeah, that, yeah, but it doesn't. I don't know. It's messier for some reason. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: I suppose so.

CLIENT: It's not as...

THERAPIST: I think you're right.

CLIENT: It's more ambiguous. It's more.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: It's not black and white or something. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: Right and wrong or kind of mending or something. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah.

CLIENT: Or like we've spoken about how, you know, maybe in ways like how my father defined virtue. You know, in opposition to his dad. You know, I do things like that. You know, I, in so many ways I don't want to be like my dad, you know? You know, and not for reasons that are lost upon me. You know what I mean? Like there's a lot of things about him. In many ways I think he is sort of like a placeholder for wrong. You know what I mean? Sometimes I, when I investigate something it seems like it's approximating some of the things my dad has done. It's that means it's wrong. You know? I'm pretty confident in some of those estimations. I guess. Yeah. Trying to put that next to kind of wanting to, you know, feel things like that little e-mail. [00:24:15]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It amazed me that I, I don't really know where like I stand in that or something You know, I feel like it's easy for me. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah.

CLIENT: Is that wrong for me or something? I don't know.

THERAPIST: Wrong for you? Right. Kind of what does it make you?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I guess. Yeah. I don't know. It just brings my mind to just like weird. Like, I keep going back to this idea that like maybe I, I didn't feel a ton of that sometimes from my dad. But I keep going back to it in a way that just tries to keep saying that it's like ludicrous to believe that just came to be the case because of my dad, you know. You know what I'm saying? [00:25:40]

THERAPIST: Because your dad...

CLIENT: I keep going back to him in my mind, but I never come back to anything like to really think about if that's like possible. I just keep going back to it. Like, it's stupid to try to make any sense of it this way, because it's obviously not that. You know what I mean? But it keeps going back to that.

THERAPIST: Because it's obviously not what?

CLIENT: It's, I keep sort of thinking about the possibility of wow, maybe, maybe I really want more of that or maybe I didn't have a lot of that.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: But I keep going back to it and just saying like well, there's nothing you can really make of it because it's clearly not that. You know?

THERAPIST: Oh, okay. Like you kind of dismiss it or something?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, I was thinking too is there also a way like you feel like, you know, I was thinking about this other way of understanding the, I have enough from my father because that's kind of based on a sense of I don't need much from my father. I don't actually want much from my father.

CLIENT: Yes. [00:27:00]

THERAPIST: And. I mean. Yeah. I mean, just the other thing I was thinking about on that level. I was also thinking about the level of, you know the notion of a story that you kind of felt like was, was told about and you tell yourself that everything's cool and everything you got plenty. You've got plenty of love and in a way, this level of noticing this in yourself, noticing a feeling of real enjoyment of his kind of, this feedback that he gave you, kind of runs, flies in the face of that feeling and tells another story.

CLIENT: If it's true, then it would be a wholly memorable experience from reading that e-mail. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That doesn't seem, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. But it sure would have meant a lot to you. Yes. Yeah. To get that from your dad. What a...

CLIENT: It think maybe a little hint of ashamed or something. That's not the right word. Something wasn't, yeah.

THERAPIST: Does it seem more so?

CLIENT: I wouldn't talk to someone else about something I could talk to my dad about the fact that the e-mail was kind of was such an event. You know what I mean? I, I would kind of, yeah. I don't know. Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, looking at it doesn't feel right? [00:28:45]

CLIENT: Yeah. It seems like a, I don't know. Yeah, I guess a shame, yeah. Right? Because if I said it to my dad I think he would draw the same conclusion if was to contact him. It felt really awesome to hear you just be so like supportive of something that I did. You know? In fact, if I said to him that really, that really stood out to me.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I would say that.

THERAPIST: Right. Because...

CLIENT: Yeah. Like you said, I mean because it extensively is always, you know?

THERAPIST: It's always been there. Yeah. Why would that stand out to you?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. You've gotten enough. You should have gotten enough anyway, right.

CLIENT: It's weird right because like in saying it, like there's things I'm really comfortable pointing to about what my dad has done and to the bad or horrible. You know what I mean? But then there's things that I just for some reason kind of have this resistance to even, you know, consider even coming close to thinking about. You know, just sort of seems to me thinking about it now that a lot of the things that I feel like I can very comfortably, you know, at least with you, not with my dad per se, but that it feels comfortable and at least justified. Accusing my father of things that are bad things that he may have done, but always sort of projected on someone else. Projected on my mom. I'm very comfortable talking about those things. [00:30:30]

THERAPIST: Yes. Yes. Yes.

CLIENT: And then, and in a way I'm comfortable with saying that I feel like my dad is sort of at least had a negative impact on me, maybe indirectly through that. You know what I mean? It seems like I want to keep, I want to keep my understanding of it as something that's sort of goes through my mom. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Maybe that's what just feels so uncomfortable about it touching on that topic is that it would be something that maybe it was me or something. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know, I think you're right. I think it taps in to something. You know, it's kind of the thing that we've been talking about. This, the two men with their arms, you know, crossed that exist between the two of you which is kind of gone something between you two that goes unspoken and there is a hidden, there is another story there. Whereas, I think, you know, this story, the story with your mother between your mother and your dad is kind of more like amenable to looking at other, looking at other stories to tell about that situation. You found it more, you found yourself more amenable to that. There's something about what happened between the two of you. You two guys. You two men. [00:32:25]

CLIENT: Scripted or very thin note line. It just seems like I don't know.

THERAPIST: Thin, what's that?

CLIENT: Like a very thin out of line boundary or something. I don't know. It seems very controlled or something. I don't know. Yeah. I don't even know.

THERAPIST: But a lot between you two. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's important you make this important point thought if it's somehow with your mother and your mother and your father you see something that you can kind of separate.

CLIENT: When I think about it, I always see an image of my dad looking at my mom. You know what I mean? Like him doing something bad. You know? Badness is always, all the bad things my dad to other people. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Not you.

CLIENT: That's why he's bad. That's why I don't like him. You know what I mean? And between us, it's cool. It's cool, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right in the badness. I see, so the feeling you have towards him aren't about you not getting enough. It's about what he's done to other people. [00:33:43]

CLIENT: He's just a bad dude. I mean he's done a lot of really bad things to people.

THERAPIST: But not you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: You know, I'm using the bad things. Or at least I feel totally lost for the ability to talk about anything to do with him maybe having done what he thinks of me.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. No, I see that.

CLIENT: It just kind of comes in to my head as we're talking about this. You know?

THERAPIST: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a lot there.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, thank you.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Okay.

CLIENT: Thank you. Thank you again for the flexibility with the, the money thing. I didn't forget about that.

THERAPIST: Yeah, sure. Yeah.

CLIENT: Alright.

THERAPIST: Alright. Yeah. I'll see you Monday then.

CLIENT: Thanks.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I am here Monday, by the way. Just to, it's like, I think it's President's Day.

CLIENT: Is it?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Some people have just been have been, just to be clear.

CLIENT: Oh no, I appreciate it. I'll have to go through my calendar. Alright. Well, I'll be here then.

THERAPIST: Alright. See you.

CLIENT: See you Monday.

END TRANSCRIPT