TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: I don't know. So, after we talked on Wednesday, I found myself feeling kind of, I don't know, maybe prickly, or a little bit defensive about oh my goodness, sorry the [inaudible 00:00:51] and I was just like, [inaudible 00:00:55] why am I so. I'd rather be -[inaudible 00:00:59], so I've got to deform [inaudible 00:01:00] because I was thinking, why is this way sticking in my head? But I think part of it is when I came in last week, [inaudible 00:01:13] was like, [inaudible 00:01:15].

[00:01:16]

[inaudible 00:01:19] I wasn't, in a way and I think what you may have said was intended as a entirely factual statement (Laughter) which I think is a [inaudible 00:01:31], but I don't know, it goes kind of in that like -

THERAPIST: There was this story on TV, I forget what -

CLIENT: Yes, I heard of this man who said that 90 percent of Planned Parenthood's funds goes to abortion which it doesn't and when questioned on it, he said that it was not intended as a factual statement, which is amazing (Laughing) and [inaudible 00:02:02].

THERAPIST: I really, really hope that this is the [inaudible 00:02:06] that heard though, right? [inaudible 00:02:07] the same thing, one goes to the other, "well, here's why", and the other one says, "well, yes, hear me out."

CLIENT: Yes. (Laughing)

[00:02:20]

THERAPIST: Well, and it makes sense.

CLIENT: Yes, I mean, I guess that's kind of thinking in because I was just feeling so angry and cranky, I was just kind of like, everything is horrible.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Like when I go to my closet, I hate all my clothes and I [inaudible 00:02:44], but in this moment, it's all [inaudible 00:02:51]. The other thing I was thinking about is that when I describe something that happened to me like I could be totally lying, and you'd be like, "what happened", because you don't have any [inaudible 00:03:10] verification, right?

[00:03:11]

THERAPIST: That is very true.

CLIENT: And I was like, "oh", but this article is case where we could both be like the same thing.

THERAPIST: I don't know. When you were saying about sort of how sometimes I will describe my way to a situation for you because I want you to have a reaction, what did you do?

CLIENT: I don't know, there are some situations where I want to be insanely scrupulous about, like this is my [inaudible 00:04:09].

THERAPIST: Yes.

[00:04:10]

CLIENT: Especially if I'm feeling hurt by what happened, or [inaudible 00:04:17], "why did you do that?" And then there are the cases where I'm just like, "whatever", like everything is I don't know. I think I actually have just been like I'm just mad at this thing and I'm [inaudible 00:04:43] explaining the ins and outs. I was thinking, [inaudible 00:04:52] sometimes you want to tell someone the [inaudible 00:04:53] so [inaudible 00:04:53] saying what you're angry about.

[00:04:55]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Yes. And then other times I don't know, I think here I tend to more talk about [inaudible 00:05:07] want to present a fair depiction, or unbiased depiction of what happened to me. I think because I don't always feel confident or secure in how I reacted, and especially if it's a case where I'm feeling like, "okay, so it seems like the sky is blue." A person's like, "yes, well maybe it's kind of green." "No, are you sure?" Alright, so we have these sort of or are like, I don't know if everything I was thinking about was when Gary [ph] at work one time, [inaudible 00:06:09] it was disgusting, it was [inaudible 00:06:11].

[00:06:12]

And this was re-doing his PowerPoint slides for a talk he had given, which is incredibly boring, and blah, blah, blah. And so I was like, "‘you know, it's kind of interesting because this part you were describing doesn't really sound like open access", and you think, well, you still understand. And so it just felt very surreal so I'm like, I didn't know [inaudible 00:06:52], but maybe you're also so like, "oh, you so understand." And like, maybe there's a special [inaudible 00:07:05].

[00:07:13]

There's something about when someone is just there are a lot of things [inaudible 00:07:21] where you can have diversity to [inaudible 00:07:22], or whatever, but then there are times when I'm like, (Laughter), no, that's just not what that is. And that's also where I'm just like, I [inaudible 00:07:37] is not, but I just feel like with everything I know and understand is telling me this, that means you [inaudible 00:07:50] position or power of authority is saying none of it happened, or that I wasn't accurate or something?

[00:08:04]

THERAPIST: I think that for is or [inaudible 00:08:07] on, (background noise) very important for you. And my impression is that basically, [inaudible 00:08:21], do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yes. Like the way my mom acts towards me, or like -

(pause)

THERAPIST: These (background noise) [inaudible 00:08:45] or interactions feel very much like the sorts of interactions [inaudible 00:09:03], and where you in your mind are in a certain role, and the other person's in a certain role (pause)

[00:09:31]

I'd rather it have that kind of familiar feeling to it.

CLIENT: Yes. I also feel like one of -

THERAPIST: I have more I could say, but go ahead.

CLIENT: No, [inaudible 00:09:56], I would like to hear what you -

THERAPIST: Okay. And I imagine that there are sometimes when that experience of a situation sort of depicts quite accurately what's going on, and other times where it doesn't quite, but that's such a familiar group for you to be in that it feels that way.

[00:10:32]

Or because it has some features of that, it feels like that. That's what generally happens, these sorts of projections that we come to there's he's got situations that are like that or [inaudible 00:10:49] I feel very much like that, or sometimes maybe situations which I [inaudible 00:10:53] like that [inaudible 00:10:54]. And I think it probably relates very closely to the other dynamic you were referring to in which you tell a story in a way that holds for the reaction you had in the other person, without your having that reaction in the moment.

CLIENT: The moment of telling it.

[00:11:37]

THERAPIST: Yes, exactly. The telling isn't about like, "Ugh, I was feeling this way and that way", and so the other person is sort of explain to them, sort of putting them a first-person narrative in a way.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: What it was like for you. I think that relates to this [inaudible 00:11:54], there's another transference thing in that -

(pause)

[inaudible 00:12:05] it's all about you not having a voice, or opinion, or way (background noise) [inaudible 00:12:13] that for me is one of the hallmarks.

[00:12:19]

And it's like, [inaudible 00:12:21] is not hearing you, there not taking what you you know, it's not like they're taking it in, thinking about it, and disagreeing with it, or criticizing you about it they're just not having it at all. And so I think you worry about people doing that, and one way you navigate it is to sometimes present things in a way the other person has the reaction that you were having, so that that they need to be more sure they're going to be they're going to be there with you.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Whereas you worry that you just had the reaction yourself in front of them, they wouldn't see it as legitimate.

(pause)

[00:13:09]

In a way, I don't think it's all necessarily that whole [inaudible 00:13:15]. I don't think with me you expect at one level that I'm going to not take in what you're saying, or say, "you couldn't possibly have felt that way."

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: "The story just wasn't like that at all." [inaudible 00:13:27] really kind of, you're used to worrying about that and you manage the worry, or manage the situation (background noise) in part by presenting things in such a way that like, after I hear the story, I'm indignant, you know, and I'm angry at those people. And so I can not only learning that your feeling is legitimate, I'm having it myself, and maybe there's another wrinkle of what happened on Wednesday where at times, was very really mad or upset about some things -

(pause)

[00:14:10]

that maybe [inaudible 00:14:11] some of the facts in a way that again would lead me to have your reaction as well.

(pause)

[inaudible, 00:14:29] I happen to have pretty much your reaction anyway [inaudible 00:14:33] having read it myself. But there was no way I was not going to have it, hearing your version of it. I mean, that sort of [inaudible 00:14:43] a little bit, but if you know what I mean.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: And I think that sometimes I'm not sure how clear I'm being. Is this sort of coming together?

CLIENT: It is. I mean, I know one of the reasons sometimes I will -

(pause)

[00:15:09]

describe what happened and not how I felt I think sometimes because in whatever happened with [inaudible 00:15:26] situation, how I felt was no one cared, do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: I think that is the central part of it, yes.

CLIENT: What I think and -

THERAPIST: I think it's really awful, too.

CLIENT: Yes, I mean [inaudible 00:15:46] if I explained it in a way that removes the emotional in it, or was more [inaudible 00:16:01], or I don't know not clinical, but If I described it as kind of like a news story or -

[00:16:12]

(crosstalk)

THERAPIST: [inaudible 00:16:12].

CLIENT: Yes, or [inaudible 00:16:14], I think acting in a certain way [inaudible 00:16:20] on paper almost, in my head. Or I'm like, "well, I have to have some resources." I often feel like -

(pause)

a little lesser now, but sometimes I feel like almost like my sources and not as details the authority won't like, [inaudible 00:16:43]. But it's like, "well, in my argument of why this situation was crappy, I would like to bring in some relevant thoughts by these other people."

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And kind of back up.

(pause)

I think also in part is I don't -

(pause)

[00:17:10]

I often don't feel like me if I say, "that sucks", or, "that was a bad idea". My experience [inaudible 00:17:24] is like other than that, are [inaudible 00:17:25]. I was like, "wow you know, I read blogs saying this thing which I really agree with, which is the [inaudible 00:17:36]. That makes it more likely to be heard.

(pause)

And I also think if -

(pause)

[00:18:00]

So four years ago or something like that could be longer I was heavily involved in this sprawling [inaudible 00:18:21] discussion of race and racism, and science fiction and fantasy writing, and tandem, and culture and it started out with this one author saying, "this is how white people should write characters of color as a white woman." And I making [inaudible 00:18:49] that is so true. God, you're amazing. (Laughing) And unfortunately, that's not [inaudible 00:19:00].

[00:19:00]

I mean, if you could [inaudible 00:19:03] -

THERAPIST: (Laughing) That's why I was laughing, because -

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: [inaudible 00:19:06], but I [inaudible 00:19:08].

CLIENT: It was just appeared like you know she goes, [inaudible 00:19:13], you know. She has a large following and like there's the people who she knows some of them right. So there's that, and I think at the time her [inaudible 00:19:28] latest book series had one of the lead characters wasn't white, and she was like, "look at that amazing thing", and so she was very proud of herself for it. And a couple people were kind of wondering, "you know, I feel where you're coming from, but a few of these things" -

THERAPIST: And I'm sorry, were the [inaudible 00:19:58] wondering, or white people, or black people -

[00:20:00]

CLIENT: People of color myself included. And this is one of those situations I [inaudible 00:20:05] didn't like, so I was just kind of like I can't remember. Someone was like there was some kind of little [inaudible 00:20:10], and was like, "yes, this person [inaudible 00:20:13]", you know. I really can't remember what it was anymore, and I was like also, you know, if feels a little weird to have a white author telling white people how to write [inaudible 00:20:28] people of color makes me feel a little uncomfortable, especially since so many of these authors are willing to spend tons of time researching medieval French clothes. And if you're willing to spend two months doing that, you can read a book, or talk to someone there are things you could do.

THERAPIST: Right. Right. Research relating to writing about people of color.

CLIENT: Right. You could do enough research to know that Korean and Thai cultures are very different actually, and you shouldn't just make them all the same.

[00:21:11]

Or like African is [inaudible 00:21:15] country. [inaudible 00:21:16], and there was a very strong reaction [inaudible 00:21:27] about the people [inaudible 00:21:31] what we mean. And it looked like it really [inaudible 00:21:37] you know? Like all of the blogs, the everything, and oh my God, and -

THERAPIST: Yes I I'm sorry, I [inaudible :21:46], but it's so often and I know this is from reality, it's just sort uncannily similar in that -

(pause)

basically when you bring up something like that with the right person (background noise) and I didn't deny any of that at all -

CLIENT: Right.

[00:22:16]

THERAPIST: Like you often get super defensive about that kind of stuff. My point is that you get that exact same response you get in all these other situations where somebody's saying, "no, no, no, I will not even entertain at all. I will not take in, consider talking to you in some sort of mutual way about what you think, or where you're coming from on this" -

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And also there's the weirdness of people telling me like I don't know my own life, I'm like, alright. So I found myself saying the same thing all the time, and then people were like, "no", but Martin Luther King said, "don't judge people by the color of their skin", blah, and I was like, "oh my God". And so over this horrifying little thing. And I'm basically collecting a bunch of things to like article and essays about, "this is why you're wrong". I would [inaudible 00:23:35] and I'm like, "okay, we'll start [inaudible 00:23:37], read these four things, then come back to me". And it's also a really great way to make someone that I see sort of like stop someone from having a [inaudible 00:23:52] because I'm like, "well, if you read these, I'll continue this discussion", and then they're like, "fuck you", which is something. But the downside is that for it to actually work, it also requires me or I felt that it required me to be scrupulously very careful in what I said, very calm, because people always complain like, "why are [inaudible 00:24:40] angry and mad at me", and I was like, "[inaudible 00:24:43], this is very nicely phrased", blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And -

THERAPIST: Today I'll get to the anger if I turned it off.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Without being further [inaudible 00:24:54].

CLIENT: And really, another person who I very much look up to. I always hoped there was some [inaudible 00:25:05] writing community and they were doing sexual cakes. So they were like, if you're in your twenties, [inaudible 00:25:13] to worry about.

[00:25:14]

And one of them was they did miscegenation or interracial sex was one of them.

THERAPIST: What was that first word?

CLIENT: Miscegenation?

THERAPIST: What does that mean?

CLIENT: It means interracial sex.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: Specifically [inaudible 00:25:30], it refers to like family.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And [inaudible 00:25:34], they might see some [inaudible 00:25:37], and they do. So someone was like, "hey, I don't know", and they just very politely were like, "I don't know if you've thought about this, but it's a little offensive", you might [inaudible 00:25:53] want to [inaudible 00:25:56] exploded in rage, and she was so mean, and blah, blah, blah, and she's explain. And this person is like finally just posted the e-mail, and she's like, "wow, that's a very" -

[00:26:09]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Because of varying -

THERAPIST: Measures.

CLIENT: Measures whatever, and so I [inaudible 00:26:19] with her is when people her problems of getting obsessed with not having a mean tone. If you're always trying to sound measured and polite, et cetera, then you're keeping yourself respecting a lot of emotion, and also you inadvertently end up setting up -

(pause)

so let's say myself and other black person go through about something.

[00:27:06]

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And I was super like, [inaudible 00:27:07] a lot, and the person who's like this really pissed me off. Then it's like, "oh, well [inaudible 00:27:14] such a nice, reasonable person. That other person's really terrible", and so it felt just weird I can't competition values and then where I'm played as a nice, reasonable person, and the person's horrible. I'm like, "wait, no, no they are also correct", and that's a problem. And then more generally, the policy[ph] of respectability, which is basically that, but also [inaudible 00:27:50] anything like, call this about respectability, you will always [inaudible 00:28:02] like, "yes, okay maybe".

[00:28:05]

There are times you'd be [inaudible 00:28:07] if they find whatever. But the [inaudible 00:28:10] of respectability aren't efficiently constrained to you, and forces you to act in all these ways that you're not allowed to have emotion. You have to always be better than, calmer than, more reasonable than, and you know (pause) and so it also ends up further more advising people within a group, so a lot of gay pride parades don't like having drag queens in the pride parade, or guys in leather, or transgender people. It's like [inaudible 00:28:55] is that image, and its like, "well, fuck you because the [inaudible 00:29:00] me too". And your attempt to whatever you're trying to do or gain through respectability, you're also hurting people within your thing.

[00:29:15]

So that is something that I'm kind of always struggling with. I would say my dad, his family [inaudible 00:29:34] was super [inaudible 00:29:36] through respectability, NAACP, [inaudible 00:29:40] all these other things. And hard is that is definitely what's been drummed into my head.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: But I don't -

THERAPIST: Can I call it kind of the values that go along with [inaudible 00:30:02] respectability.

CLIENT: Yes. [inaudible 00:30:04] and uploads, and all this memory, and so I'd be like, "wow, this is hurting me".

[00:30:17]

I've been able to see for [inaudible 00:30:19] I'm like, "yes, it's a crappy for [inaudible 00:30:21]", and I'm slowing being like, "no, this is also bad for me as a person to keep on doing that", and because I don't get to have feelings and stuff. And then also, I feel like people from the outside are saying I'm the reasonable one and I should listen to you. And then I [inaudible 00:30:52] find myself thinking, "well, I am the nice, reasonable one. Why does that person have to be so angry?"

THERAPIST: Oh, I see.

CLIENT: And then I'm like, "hey, hey" -

THERAPIST: Whoa.

CLIENT: Then I yes. [inaudible 00:31:04] get to be angry. And it's hard -

(pause)

[00:31:16]

I always want to smooth it over, do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: In that given situation, or starting [inaudible 00:31:29] as more generally?

CLIENT: Just generally.

(pause)

Let's say there's a bunch of people at a party talking. I often find myself thinking, "do you really have to pick? I don't' really want to do this right now", or, "can he let this drop this one time", or "do you have to be so mad about it", or -

THERAPIST: [inaudible 00:32:06] upon yourself.

CLIENT: No, thinking about what I'd say to someone else who's actually both more points [inaudible 00:32:11] I just don't want to.

[00:32:15]

And part of what I don't what for me, I don't want to be the nice, reasonable person right now I don't feel like it. It's a lot of work and I'm just not interested.

THERAPIST: And there's a way in which it's quite a process to you. I'm not saying it's not strategic and that I can understand why you it, and if call it [inaudible 00:32:43], I'm taking your more [inaudible 00:32:46] to be that where we're going [inaudible 00:32:50] is that really a lot of it has to do with the policies of respectability, and the how you had to manage the sorts that you've been referring to by sort of squelching how you feel.

[00:33:26]

Do you think you're describing are actually what's more present in your mind as writing the kind answers we're talking about, and [inaudible 00:33:36] stuff that I'm referring to.

CLIENT: Yes. That's very important. But then there are times where I do [inaudible 00:33:47] have that moment of like, "ugh", like I [inaudible 00:33:54] -

(pause)

Like there are times when sometimes they sort of [inaudible 00:34:01], and the argument being like, "I've had this argument before", and this is and I have in my head [inaudible 00:34:10], it's like I'm doing what your calling was the transference -

[00:34:13]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: again, I'm experiencing that again.

(pause)

THERAPIST: Some of the others is really much more meeting in mind.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: [inaudible 00:34:30].

CLIENT: It is, and I think part of it is having more friends who are I don't know, [inaudible 00:34:58] to express anger in ways that don't leave everyone upset, and ways that don't feel so scary to me.

(pause)

[00:35:10]

Like sometimes, the ways someone will express their anger feel very [inaudible 00:35:19], it's not just a physical [inaudible 00:35:22] because sometimes I'm like, "holy shit, that feels like a lot that you're expressing right now, and I don't feel like I can handle that right now", or if feels so explosive, or like it's not going to end like they're just going to be angrier, and angry, angry, angrier, and that's hard for me also yelling. But I don't know, having some people I know for a more comfortable I don't know, I'm not sure really how to explain, but when they're angry, I don't' find it scary and sometimes I'm just like, "Oh, I'm not going to do that".

[00:36:18]

I just don't want to feel like that's not how I'm ever going to react, but I totally respect how you're reacting, and in some cases I think I would like to be able react that way or partially react that way, if that makes sense.

THERAPIST: Yes. [inaudible 00:36:47] to start a little bit though, you think hasn't that been a factor to -

CLIENT: Oh, so having friends who are supportive for me being moderate in measures also. [inaudible 00:37:06] if your anger -

THERAPIST: Yes.

[00:37:10]

CLIENT: If I [inaudible 00:37:12] measure the other person won't get you [inaudible 00:37:17], so I am the nice, respectable person who's so [inaudible 00:37:22] that -

THERAPIST: I see. Then there's another sort of influence on your developing this way and handling the angry -

CLIENT: Yes. And it's also very much when I'm the only member of "X" group in a room, and somebody there wants to ask me questions about how to the black [inaudible 00:37:56], and I'm like, "don't know if I [inaudible 00:38:00]. Or someone says something offensive and it's just like, "I [inaudible 00:38:04]". But I feel it always feel this time of, I should really say something.

[00:38:17]

THERAPIST: This in incredibly burdensome and oppressive.

CLIENT: Yes. I think it's like the teachable moment phrase I think puts so much of the burden on the person being more [inaudible 00:38:36] and harassed.

THERAPIST: Absolutely.

CLIENT: And these and people who are engaging in a [inaudible 00:38:43] behavior get very I don't know guess it's very like, "well, why didn't you get mad at these people?" And I'm like, "I don't know, why didn't you?"

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And I want to not be stuck in that, and so having friends who are more able to express their anger or concerns -before inspirational, so that's weird, but it kind of shows me that if I was, I could be really angry and passionate, and also be chill, and it would be okay.

(pause)

THERAPIST: I mean, I'm thinking of something like the relationship between gears in a car, you know, [inaudible 00:39:54].

CLIENT: Mm hmm.

THERAPIST: Be angry, and not as [inaudible 00:40:01] on [inaudible 00:40:01] it.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: And so should that [inaudible 00:40:05] come, I think you can sort of squelch the angry, but you know like how in a conversation, somebody might be really angry about something and then the topic changes and they settle down, and then you're like a huge deal kind of made [inaudible 00:40:18]. But are you [inaudible 00:40:22], are you [inaudible 00:40:27] just to be angry like that.

CLIENT: Yes. Before I get angered is third gear -

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: But I think I'm like [inaudible 00:40:35] for a sec. I don't want to and it's also made me think about the friends who express their anger in ways that do make me either scared, upset, or I feel like if I start engaging with them, it's going to spiral up like one of my friends, Wanda [ph], when she gets really passionate, and angry, and very vocal, I guess I feel like I can meet her where she is. And I feel like she's upset because of the issue, and there's a certain level of upset that she's going to be having about it like, "I'm really mad about this", and okay [inaudible 00:41:40], and it's not going to suddenly be like she's not going to go from, "this pissed me off a little bit", to screaming. It's kind of like okay, this is happening, this is [inaudible 00:42:05], and I can see where she's going.

[00:42:11]

I'm like, "okay, I see how your progression of aggressions is going"

THERAPIST: I guess, more realized.

CLIENT: And there are some people who I feel like I have no idea where they're going, and I feel like scared that that anger is either already kind of lashing out at me, or that they're going to, and that I don't know what is going to cause that. And I also (pause) kind of weird because I have so many people, friends who I keep in touch with online or when they're online, and there's also the [inaudible 00:43:08] that people who like, "yes, oh, okay. We can [inaudible 00:43:12], [inaudible 00:43:13], whatever".

[00:43:14]

And then suddenly there's a three-hour rage come on and I'm like, "what the fuck just happened?" And that I find very irregular in somewhat trying to [inaudible 00:43:41] I don't want that. That's not I don't know. I still believe that we totally have the right to be angry, I think I have the right to say, "I'm uncomfortable with that, I'd like to go".

[00:44:04]

THERAPIST: Yes. We have to stop for now. I think there's someplace that's like on Thursday if you wanted me to -

CLIENT: I have Thursday plans already.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: But thank you.

THERAPIST: Are you okay?

CLIENT: Yes. I went walking around yesterday in the snow, and wow.

(Laughing)

Like you just [inaudible 00:44:32].

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Yes. But [inaudible 00:44:37].

THERAPIST: Gotcha. Okay, and I'll [inaudible 00:44:41] -

CLIENT: Tomorrow.

THERAPIST: Tomorrow, yes.

END TRANSCRIPT