TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Alright. I've started to put this over here because I think it picks up the sound better.

CLIENT: How's it going?

THERAPIST: Good. Good.

CLIENT: What were we, what were talking about on Thursday?

THERAPIST: Thursday. Yeah.

CLIENT: What were we talking about? Do you remember?

THERAPIST: I'm trying to recall.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like a total, total blind spot.

CLIENT: Are you? Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I like to see what we were...

CLIENT: We were talking. I'm assuming we were talking about. Oh, we were talking about my dad and that e-mail and him giving me that kind of good response to the thing I wrote.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It made me kind of excited about it and kind of reflecting on what all that, what all that meant and how I felt about it and everything.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Which was, which was interesting. I'm trying to remember where we kind of dropped off on it. I guess we, yeah, I guess where we kind of got to was me thinking that, me thinking that I felt a little I guess uncomfortable, kind of, with the notion that maybe I felt so kind of excited and I guess the fact that just feeling like he had, was giving a kind of really good affirmation to something that I had done felt so good that it, I guess it made me kind of feel that maybe it was something I didn't experience a lot or something, You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yes. [00:02:00]

CLIENT: And that, because that is, because it's just not really a way that I think about my relationship with my dad. You know what I mean? I don't have that image of our kind of history and our relationship with each other. You know? You know, I mean that we kind of had the, I think the comment about. Like I said I don't know why I feel so uncomfortable kind of thinking that. Maybe my dad didn't do that a lot. You know what I mean? I don't know why that seems like such a weird thing for me to kind of possibly think it might have been the kids. I kind of had that observation though.

You know, I'm very comfortable being critical with my dad and things that he has done. But the things that are most comfortable kind of talking about and identifying as things that I find really horrible. I think that he's kind of done to other people. I don't really have a lot of that that I can pull out, of things that kind of happened just purely between us. You know what I mean? [00:03:15]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And, yeah, it's an interesting insight. I thought it was interesting. I guess because I think I just kind of stumbled upon it, but it seems really, it seems really true. You know, I could go on for days and days about him. What drives me crazy about when my dad deals with my mom? The way that my dad deals with women, his sister, so on so forth. But, I have a hard time finding things that I think are that objectionable. You know, that he might have just done it to me or something. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Like, I think he, I think at times he has been rude to my mom. You know what I mean? But I have harder times thinking of that kind of stuff that might have transpired between he and I. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And if I was to kind of give evidence for why I think my dad, you know, might be not the greatest person in the world, all my evidence would be in that category of things he's done to other people. You know what I mean? I, and it just, you know, the more I think about it, it just seems interesting and it seems like a pretty consistent way of kind of lumping those ideas in to two groups. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I guess that's where like and I guess the idea thinking about it, you know, in that e-mail I really, really liked how kind of like warm and kind of nice it was to feel that from him. It seemed to suggest that maybe there was this kind of void between he and I which would have disrupted that. Categorization. You know what I mean? [00:05:00]

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And it just seemed to suggest some resonance to wanting to like really think about. You know, things kind of right between he and I. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's more comfortable to kind of think about it with respect to other people or something. You know? And it seems interesting. I don't really know why. It seems, it seems like true to me. You know?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: But I just don't really know what to make of that. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. What to make of it?

CLIENT: Like, it seems like my thoughts definitely kind of fit that. That kind of filter. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, but it just seems so, it seems, I guess I would just wonder what, what drives that. You know what I mean? What's behind not wanting to, you know, kind of inspect the things that kind of went down between just he and I? You know what I mean? [00:06:00]

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And, I don't know. Maybe it just makes me think like it would make it easier for me or something to. You know, one of the ways that I try to think about like trying to mediate that divide between like knowing that my dad does, has done things and is continuing to just be not a great a person to some people that I care about. Like, my mom, for example. But, the fact that I have to see him. That I have to have a relationship with him requires me to create two different kinds of spaces for those thoughts. You know what I mean? Like I can't deny the fact that I'm certain that my dad has done really hurtful things to my mom and in some way probably continues to, you know, be a source of hurt for my mom. But I have to go there through all of this. You know what I mean? [00:07:15]

It almost seems more kind of like tactical at the divide. If I couldn't separate those things, then I had to bring in like my anger in for those things. Like in to me going up there for the weekend. It wouldn't be attainable. You know what I mean? I couldn't do the things that I have to do. I wouldn't. Yeah. I mean I wouldn't be able to, I don't know how I would be able to interact with him if I wasn't able to kind of find a way to kind of separate that stuff. Just think about it as like it's the relationship with my dad and that's just he and I.

And then there's his relationship with everybody else. And I can, and I guess that's kind of what I had to, that's what someone has to do I suppose when their parents split up. Is they have to sort of accept like one sphere which was like three people kind of becomes two spheres that you need to find a way to kind of come in and out of. You know what I mean? And I guess that's kind of like, you know, the thing is it seems kind of suggestive of something that I'm doing with my ideas about it with my dad. You know what I mean? [00:08:40]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: But, I guess there's a lot. There's a lot of just kind of weird, uncertain, uninspected things in that domain just between he and I. You know what I mean? I don't really have a lot there to talk about the substance of our relationship. You know? Even when I think about it, I just think about our relationship as being infused with my frustration with him towards the things he has done to other people. You know what I mean? And it's always sort of indirect or like that's the way that I usually think about the way that my dad might have like hurt me. Was by the things he did to my mom. You know what I mean? I don't really think about it as things that might have just transpired between he and I. You know? And when I try to just think about that stuff, it's really hard for me to think of anything. You know? [00:10:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, the first, you got a whiff at it, the whiff of something was and that paradoxically about getting something good from him.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. In some way it sounds like you felt like whoa, wait a second. This must mean. This felt so good. Why is that the case?

CLIENT: Yeah. And if someone told me that story, I would probably just be like, I'd at least think to myself wow, I mean you probably didn't get a lot of that kind of like, you know, affection from your dad if you're that kind of a, you know, strung out about this little tiny thing he did. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I, just to add to that, it sounds to me like it's actually something that you, I would say, you know, I would say that is the first whiff of something that was awry, but that something between you two. But, actually, as I think about it, it relates to this idea of there's something different between the social relationship that the two of you have when somebody else is around and what happens between the two of you in private. [00:11:15]

CLIENT: Yeah. I was thinking about that even as I was kind of making that little schematic in my head of like these multiple, like these two circles. Like, just how much easier it is for me to think about my dad in terms of like who he is to other people or something. You know what I mean? And then just the way, it just, it my head even when you said that, it just kind of brought up like how different things are between my dad when there's even another person around or something. You know what I mean? All of which just seems to suggest something weird about like just he and I. You know what I mean? Like as we spoke about in the past, it just that kind of weird tension like if he and I are just alone together or something. You know? Yeah. I mean I guess the commonality is this kind of, this weird kind of something that kind of pokes its head up a little bit.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Yes. [00:12:18]

CLIENT: And yeah, I guess, I don't know. It's a strange kind of thing for me to really think about. You know, because when I put it this way, it seems to me like oh wow, you know? You know, maybe I've, I guess it just seems like it's not, it seems like I've never really thought of it before. Yeah. I mean I guess it just makes me feel I really don't have that many ideas about what is like the substance between my relationship like really with my dad. Like just between he and I. And what's really, really kind of going on with that. You know?

THERAPIST: What do you have? [00:13:35]

CLIENT: Just this weird kind of like uncertainty and uneasiness with the topic.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: And I guess I, I guess like when I can kind of like separate those categories and really try to isolate that such that I can look at it. I feel surprised that. I mean I never would have thought that. You know what I mean? I guess it was a thought I had a pretty strong handle on that. You know what I mean? Like, I think even like when right when we were really started talking way earlier on. I just, I think and I mentioned this in one our last couple of meetings. I think I really sort of like threw out way ahead of everything. Like, my parents really, really, really love me. You know what I mean? Yeah. I guess I just felt certain about some of those things. I guess I have some things in my head that just sort of let me feel like I had that topic kind of figured out or something.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? [00:14:43]

THERAPIST: Well, kind of like the divorce. Kind of like the divorce. Like, this kind of way that, you know, like as you commented very early in to us meeting was your observation that I've been going through life thinking and feeling that it was my friends had these kind of complicated divorces. Mine in comparison, first of all, it was normal, but it's also made me feel like, you know, it was, but it didn't affect me. You know, like the divorce didn't have this effect on me like it did these other guys and so more or less I was, I got, I got a good bargain out of it. I was the child of a good divorce.

CLIENT: Yeah. It couldn't have been. If it was inevitable, you know, which it probably was, you know, you couldn't have been luckier. You know what I mean? You couldn't have been luckier.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: No, but it's funny, right? Because when I, you know, take that idea, which is which is very, very kind of front and center in my thought, you know, for my whole life, you know? And in many ways still is. And when I think about that, like what am I saying when I even say that? You know, what I'm saying is that my parents kind of, you know, I guess I'm just thinking that that seems to flow very logically in to like, you know, I feel very loved and I've never kind of been at a loss for love or affection or anything like this. You know?

Because, in a way, that's kind of what I, that's what I saw, like in these other people with experiences I didn't have. Like, there were massive gaps. You know what I mean? Like dad's just not there. He wouldn't answer their phone calls. You know what I mean? Like, kids who when they got a phone call from their dad had like that little thing that I had about, with the e-mail like times a zillion. You know what I mean? I could see it in them. You know what I mean? [00:17:00]

THERAPIST: I understand. Yes. Yeah.

CLIENT: Like, anyone could have seen the fact that these kids did not get something that they wanted to. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I guess, in a way, like I equated the fact that my parents seemed to not, I mean I guess I saw in my parents very concerted efforts as they were to not mirror some of those things. I mean I saw that as loving parents. You know what I mean? Like, and I saw in their behavior between each other in certain ways. Like evidence and proof of their love. You know what I mean? It was because they loved me so much that they didn't like let stuff get to the kind of crazy places that some of my other friends did. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. So, do the mal effects of divorce, the bad effects of divorce are really over here, you know, with this other group. You know.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:18:10]

THERAPIST: Kind of like your father. Your father. Either they're the people like are the, are the victims of your father's kind of behavior and then there's you. Divorce, victims of divorce and there was you in a way and there's truth to it. There's a real... Of course, there's different.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think what I really took out of it was, I mean, just, like you just said, like my, I paid attention to the things that my parents did with respect to one another. You know what I mean? Those are the things that stick out to me more than like me thinking about what my parents did kind of directly with me. I mean I have more images in my head of the way my parents played out their divorce with them looking at other people and thinking about other people and them kind of dictating how they were going to handle a relationship that was between my mom and my dad in a way like thinking about how it was going to affect me. And I guess I saw like evidence and proof of their love for me in the fact that they were sort of, you know, making sure that their relationship played out in a way that had certain sort of consequences for me. You know what I mean? And like that's the way that I saw myself as being, as being loved.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Right.

CLIENT: Which I'll distinguish from like experiences like that with my dad the other night.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yes. [00:20:07]

CLIENT: And those two things fall on two different sides of that same divide I'm talking to you about. Like, between things that literally just come on between here and things I can observe not only between two people, but that I kind of, you know, I'll take evidence as concern for me or something.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I have very, very few memories of the kind of more interpersonal things between me and my dad. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And like it was super evident too. Like, it was made very clear like we're doing, you know, we're not doing what everyone else does. You know? Like, we're not going to court. You know? We're not, no one's disappearing. You know what I mean? No one's going to be fighting all the time. You know what I mean? Like, and I don't know I guess those are the things that I really kind of grabbed on to as evidence for like my certainty that like, you know, I'm very loved. You know? [00:21:18]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I know. Yeah.

CLIENT: But there is nothing like that kind of little e-mail thing. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Right. Right. The feeling, you mean like a feeling of like yeah. That kind of good feeling that you got from that e-mail that was a confirmation that like kind of founded a feeling of, of connection. Is that what you mean? The thing between the... It wasn't based on what was going on between you two as much as it was what wasn't going on in these. Like, I was just thinking about the real, the kind of that quality that you had with that conversation with your dad that it just really hit you as very like meaningful, impactful, felt good and you felt something.

You've got something important between you two that he noticed. Of course, you're describing now it what was like stood out in some way, but I was thinking the basis, are you sort of saying that the basis of a good relationship with a father, with my father, was not based on those kind of things as much as they were like hey man, he was around. Different than what my friends.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Treated me, you know, differently than what was going on everywhere else. I didn't have to go through all these things that other people did. [00:22:50]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's the distinction between them. Like, I know my mom loves me. I know that my dad loves me. If I thought of evidence for why my dad loves me, I would give examples of things of the way that he, you know, decided not to move out of the state. Maybe if he even wanted to. The way that he, you know, maybe went, you know the way he even after he moved out he came by all the time. You know, the way that he didn't let things go to that crazy level. Those are all things and decisions though that he could have done without ever like talking to me. You know what I mean? Like, he could have, he didn't even really need to interact with me to do. You know what I mean? Which just seems so different from like that kind of interaction that we had, you know, the other day. [00:24:19]

THERAPIST: Yeah. But that one felt very personal to you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: One would imagine.

CLIENT: Yeah. I see it as interesting when I think about this. Like, the emphasis that I, that I didn't think my parents loved me because we had dinners all the time. I didn't think it was loving because we, you know, talked about things all the time. You know, because I could always go to them with everything. I didn't, it was never anything like that. It was always because like, you know, I always looked at the way that, you know, they loved me because of the way they did other things. I didn't have anything to do with me. You know? And it seems interesting now that like that those are the things that I get so fixated on with my dad now. Like, I feel like sometimes the reason it's hard for me to love him sometimes is because of the way that he handles things that don't have to do with me almost, you know? [00:25:24]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. So, I guess like when I think about when I'm younger I don't really remember having a lot of conversations with my dad. You know? But, particularly during the time he moved out we didn't really have a lot of talks. You know? Even when I was dating, you know, he would come, I would go over to his place sometimes and, you know, like he would have, you know, his girlfriend there. I'd bring my girlfriend to watch a movie. You know, I spent the night with my dad. You know what I mean? It was just never he and I. You know? Those moments were so few and far between. And he would always show that he really loved me and cared for me by saying like oh, you know, if you ever need to have the house you can come by and I'll give you a key to my place. You can feel free to come by there when I'm not there on the weekend. You know what I mean? And that was him of kind of showing that he loved me by kind of letting us be two different places at the same time or something. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. [00:27:00]

CLIENT: And I guess I'm thinking like why, why did my, like the evidence that I would give for why my parents really loved me I would think about all these things that I mean never even required us to be in the same room or never really required us to actually like discuss things. You know what I mean? I don't really remember seeing a lot of my dad in a way throughout high school. I don't really remember. You know, we had that one conversation when he moved out and that was like, you know, a really kind of profound moment because it was the three of us. Like my mom, my dad and me sitting in one room having a conversation with each other and actually like talking about the way we felt about some things and, you know, my dad started getting teary eyed and my mom's getting teary eyed. But I mean that ended really quickly. I feel like that was only done such that afterwards it could then just kind of never, ever, ever happen again. You know, because my dad moved out afterwards. [00:28:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I guess then our relationship really just kind of like went in to like a phone, like phone calls and seeing each other, you know, in groups. Yeah. I mean just those kinds of things. You know? But, I guess it just seems like sort of an empty relationship in a way. You know? Particularly throughout high school. I think that was one reason why it was so really difficult and hard for me. Like, when I got in trouble at school to ask for his help because it was bringing him like incredibly closer than like we really had been.

THERAPIST: Yes. Yes. [00:29:20]

CLIENT: You know, a lot more just than me having to admit to what I did, but he'd come in and I need to really like bring you in to, you know, my life which you never really kind of like put your toes in to sometimes. Phone calls or brief conversations. You know? Yeah. I mean it definitely kind of took on a character that was very in a routine and void of a lot of really kind of needy things. You know? And from that standpoint, I guess it doesn't surprise me that, you know, reading that e-mail really stood out from that kind of stuff. You know? [00:30:22]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It kind of, it harkens back to some conversations we've had about you noting that this kind of tendency not to have people know too much about what's going on with it. And it's if it's a kind of, it makes me think. I was thinking that I guess specifically how much you talk to your dad about law school and what you're. You know the whole decision if you are going to be making a decision or not, how much you kind of kept it, if I am remembering it right, you kept it to yourself until you made this decision. Or things with Laney. Like, how much, you know, you share with him about Laney or how much he knows about you and Laney. What happens in your relationship. I guess in this frame, you're kind of going yeah, it's nothing we share. We don't, I don't have him close to me in that way. And the fact that it sounds like, boy, you know, the e-mail and like that was, I mean that's a pretty personal thing, right? To show your dad, you know, these... [00:31:35]

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, these things you were writing about yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah. In some way I'm a little vulnerable in aspects of it too. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. It's a big move. As well as, you know, the whole thing with school.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that you found yourself feeling that sometimes that, that way here too. You know, like I just, for some reason, I was just reflecting that not that you have to or should be or anything like that, but I was reflecting of like you don't talk a lot about, you know, what are the ins and outs of things that are kind of emotionally at play with you and Laney, for instance.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't talk about that. [00:32:35]

THERAPIST: And you've let me in, but, you know, and yet we've also been talking about how much you've let me in to this, this whole process around the various kind of, you know, war call rituals or something or whatever. Things that you do. You know, habits. Or the smoking or all that stuff. How much of it? You know? Anyway, I raise that because I think it's an important observation that you're making around the actions were always critical. Not so much the sort of feeling of a connection. As you were sort of saying, a one to one kind of embeddedness in one's, each other's emotional, psychological lives. [00:33:30]

CLIENT: No. Absolutely. I guess it's like I don't really know where that would, where that would even find like even an inch of common ground at the first step. You know what I mean? I wouldn't get in to a talk with my dad about Laney, because I think I have fantastically different, I mean I guess in some ways, I know I do. You know? It would be quickly, at least for me, to have some conversation about him and my mom. You know? You know? Like, when he asks me how's Laney? How's Laney doing? I also want to be like how's mom doing dad? You know? Like, it's that quick.

Like, and if I had got in to a conversation with him like that was really substantive about my relationship with Laney, I would feel if he ever started asking me about like things that I know he deals with in certain ways. Like, wanting to be with other people. You know, like if he ever said like oh, you've been with Laney for a long time. You know, you're 24 years old. I know when my dad was 25 he wasn't living with a woman. He was probably, you know, seeing all sorts of different people. You know? And I don't think he would have been like living a monogamous lifestyle like I am at 25. [00:34:55]

If we got in to a conversation about that, like how it's different between us, it would very quickly become a conversation about like, you know, I think I just, I think would say something like, like oh, you know, I can kind of be with someone and, you know, take their feelings in to consideration and not just kind of, you know, just do whatever the hell I want. You know? Like, I would make it, it would turn in to like a comment about like him and my mom. Like very quickly. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: Like, you know, if he's like do you want to get married? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with her? And I guess I would I kind of just stop thinking about me and Laney. I just start thinking about my dad and my mom. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: You know, it's interesting. I think you're pointing out like in a way, if you guys were to have that conversation immediately your thoughts go to a very, to like a very deep set of feelings and associations to, with your father, that you have with your, father around the divorce. Around the marriage that your parents had.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:36:10]

THERAPIST: The very deep feelings that you'd want to share with him. I mean, I understand the element that it's got an edge of like you're going to look at this thing, you know, with some, with some force, but it's still a desire to go, you know go there with him.

CLIENT: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, can he see? You know? What can he see of this?

CLIENT: You know, and that's like I don't know where that emotional connection would begin. Yeah. I just, I have a hard time with it. Like, if we were not father and son, I would not hang with my dad. Like, I wouldn't. You know? I wouldn't want to for a lot of different reasons probably. So, yeah. I don't think we do have like a super, like emotional and deep connection. We can talk anything. I mean we talk about like, you know, my sister or something. It's just, I guess sometimes I just can't believe, you know, like some of the things he has done. Like, how, you know, how do you not just let that stuff fly out? You know? How do you control for that? You know? I don't know. [00:38:00]

THERAPIST: If you guys were really good at talking that element of how you feel about it. That you...

CLIENT: Like, I couldn't even tell him that I come here and do this as much as I do.

THERAPIST: What's that?

CLIENT: I couldn't even tell him that I come here and do this.

THERAPIST: I was thinking. I was wondering that.

CLIENT: What would I say?

THERAPIST: Just how much does he know about it?

CLIENT: He doesn't even know that I've ever come to you once. He doesn't know that I'm doing anything.

THERAPIST: Oh, I see.

CLIENT: Absolutely nothing. You know? What would I? You know? Like, yeah, you know, I do this twice a week. You know? It's a big thing I do. Like, I commit a lot of my resources to it, you know? He'd be like why? You know? I don't know what I can say to that that wouldn't begin to just like unravel shit. You know what I mean? I feel like I'm kind of unhappy about some things. That already there has gone way out of line. Way out of boundaries of what like we typically converse around. You know what I mean? [00:39:10]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like, it, it's so it doesn't go in. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Because then it kind of where does that lead? You know what I mean? Like, it's the elephant in the room in a weird way. Like, I think he would just know like oh, maybe this has something to do with, you know, your parents getting divorced or something. You know? I don't know.

THERAPIST: Well, I was thinking it leads back to that conversation you started, you know, many years ago and you just can't come around here whenever you want.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you can come around me, you know, but there's going to be, you know, I guess where you're allowed to go, I suppose. You know? Out of courtesy for you so that this, so that we can still do this. You know what I mean? But, the only reason I do it is because if I didn't I feel I wouldn't be able to see you and definitely it would be horrible for you. You know what I mean? Yeah. I don't know. I guess it's just this, yeah. You'd have a tough time with getting really in to some of that stuff. It's just it seems, I don't know if it seems like it couldn't work or if it seems like it's just not even something I want to do, but it just seems like it's not even worth it. Yeah. I mean clearly I have a lot of things on the tip of my tongue that I could say to him. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:41:00]

CLIENT: Like, at all times. I don't know if it's that like I'm scared to or if I genuinely don't want to or I genuinely just think it wouldn't make sense. You know? From scared to that seems to suggest that maybe there's a, there's an initial fear, but a potential benefit or utility in doing it or something. You know? I don't know if it's that or if it's just like it just doesn't make sense or something. I don't know. Yeah. I guess. Yeah. I guess I mean we do have sort of a not very serious kind of emotional connection with one another.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. [00:42:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess we kind of are like those two cross armed dudes in the photograph, if that makes sense.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: In a way then I think, you know, which, you know, paradoxically, in a slightly different form, I know one that would actually never let that photo actually happen. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, that's yeah.

CLIENT: But underneath it I mean not much difference in substance I suppose.

THERAPIST: Well, yeah. If there was a third party present, the picture would be you guys, you know, his arm around you or something like that. You wouldn't see the kind of the, this other side as you were pointing it out what's happening here.

CLIENT: You know, we would definitely have our arms around each other. Maybe, you know, perhaps only then, but definitely then. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it's manipulative, almost.

THERAPIST: It is. Well, I was thinking it's a powerful seductive image.

CLIENT: Yes. [00:43:10]

THERAPIST: You know? The picture. The picture that you literally would be taking or the picture that you do have that you, you noticed that you have in your mind about it. That, I think that you feel that you and your father have kind of co-created in some way of what you guys have. Because, you know, what you guys have together. Yeah, but it feels, as you say, it feels like a, what did you say? It's a manipulation?

CLIENT: It is. I feel like it, when I think back on this stuff, it seems like manipulative. You know? For me to make sense of it. You know? Like, being, I don't know, like when I look back like on myself like in high school, I see kids really upset. This seems to them, it seems justifiable, but it seems like he's had people around him who have just orchestrated things such that there's nothing to point to. You know what I mean?

It's just it seems like he's, he was sort of, you know, robbed of just the right to be pissed about it. You know what I mean? Whether it is out of like a, like a genuine desire to make things better. Like, to try to keep things looking so smooth. You know? I wouldn't say it was purely like a covering up of something. You know what I mean? You know, I think there's some real hope there that was being helpful, but I think it had the effect of just kind of not having maybe some of what those other kids did which was just like, you know, this was, this sucked. [00:45:00]

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: I was in. I know what it's like. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And they have their kind of cross to bear or something. You know. It was taken away or something. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It wasn't in to let them be in that little circle with those other people who had that experience. I didn't have that experience. You know?

THERAPIST: Well, yeah and I think your comment about you can't just come around here anymore was an attempt to engage in that kind of level of your experience with him. To kind of talk about. You were talking about what was going on between you two and a real attempt to do that. You know, I was met with a lot of push back. Silence.

CLIENT: Yeah. I hurt a button or something.

THERAPIST: He was hurt. Yeah, I guess. You must, I was thinking you sound, feel hurt or rejected. I don't know what it seemed like to you? Mad? [00:46:00]

CLIENT: I thought it was interesting because one time I was like wow, yeah, maybe. I was like that does, that sounds like something that someone who's scared does. And I remember you were like yeah, it means he was really scared. And I was like maybe both. You know? I don't know.

THERAPIST: You mean your father's response to something that somebody said?

CLIENT: I remember how you had asked me like was he, was he, were you scared of your dad? And I was like I never thought about that, but then I thought back to that interaction and I was like oh, that does seem like a kind of a scary for, you know, to say what you feel and get this kind of like, you know, vicious response. You know? I thought it was like oh, that's kind of scary, but I think your insight is truly interesting. It's also the reaction of a scared person.

THERAPIST: He's scared. Yeah.

CLIENT: Both maybe. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot there, obviously. Yeah. [00:47:00]

CLIENT: No, this is good though.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: This is helpful stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess, you know, just before we stop, I was thinking about it and I thought I'd just share it with you is that, you know, I was thinking, you know, you having somewhere in there I was thinking about the dream that you had about me and it seems some way for you to get at another level of well, that in some way you were looking inward, you know, through a dream about something that you, you were concerned of. Something that you were kind of concerned of between the two of us that you were trying to I think bring to me in this form of a dream. And, what I think I was thinking about, you know, some way that you've been describing the kind of the, the kind of the difficulty of going at another level of what's going on between two people. You know, with you and your dad in some way the dreaming is a way I think just like it is to kind of go in to your own mind about what is going on with you and your father. It's kind of a, it can kind of be a frightening, unsettling place to be as well. I think I certainly noticed it with what was going on in the dream with me in some way. I see that just as a way to kind of like yeah, there's something. [00:48:55]

CLIENT: There's a lot of themes there. Yeah. The boundaries between the kind of superficial and the more kind of not so superficial and what's behind there.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And, also like not only what does mean for like me on the other side of that boundary, but for other people too. You know, kind of scared with how other people might feel.

THERAPIST: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Thank you.

CLIENT: Alright.

THERAPIST: Thursday.

CLIENT: Thursday. You don't have to pay the meters today, do you?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Are you sure?

THERAPIST: I'm almost positive.

CLIENT: When I got out of the car everyone around was paying and I was like I don't think so.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Alright. Thank you.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Okay.

CLIENT: See you Thursday.

END TRANSCRIPT