TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: It was snowy that day too right?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah that was the day it started snowing. I was just like on the brink all day and I tried going in to work and…

THERAPIST: What did you have?

CLIENT: I thought I was getting the flu or something. All week I was like teetering on, I just…thinking I was going to just like go over the edge, feeling really sick. On Thursday I felt okay in the morning and I was feeling worse and worse throughout the day and I stepped outside in the snow and I just felt like I was going to keel over, I just…I just decided not to push it, that's why I ended up waiting. (conversation in background) And I just, yeah, I made a judgment call that I should go home and try to get some rest.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I felt like, I don't know, I wasn't sure if it was not enough notice or I felt bad but I just…

THERAPIST: Well I don't know. Listen if you're hit with it what are you going to do?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Definitely I expect you to bill me for it.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know whatever that's worth. It's not something that typically comes up but yeah I feel fine now so maybe it was a good thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah, how long did it stay with you?

CLIENT: I went home and I just went to bed early that night and woke up on Friday, I didn't go into the office I just kind of stayed at home, I didn't really feel…I feel like if I would've ever left the house, even feel sick, and by the weekend I felt fine. [00:01:32]

THERAPIST: Sounds like you just needed some sleep?

CLIENT: Yeah, I think that was probably it. But it was funny, on Friday I was at home and I was eating breakfast, at 10:30 and I got a phone call from a number I didn't know. I figured it was probably the dentist because I haven't been to the dentist in a while and they call me a lot trying to get me to come in. My friend, he gets like crazy phone calls from creditors, like for his unpaid credit card bills and stuff, I don't get any of that, I get it from my dentist, but it's like the same thing, like I almost want to like and I know my dad "You can take legal action to get creditors to stop calling you," if they're calling your cell phone like crazy over unpaid bills, I almost want to do that with my dentist cause its…yeah.

THERAPIST: But they just want to get you back in?

CLIENT: Yeah I had cancelled an appointment a long time ago and haven't rescheduled it, I hate the dentist, I don't want to go.

THERAPIST: Ah.

CLIENT: I hate it so much. My mom's always on me about it so on and so forth so I thought it was them so I decided to answer, I don't know why but it was actually the admissions department at law school and I was…when they said it was in Dublin, I was like "Oh wow, I probably forgot to submit something," cause I thought it was going to be an e-mail when they were calling me about a decision but they said they were calling to "Let you know that change in your status, you were accepted."

THERAPIST: Yay! Congratulations!

CLIENT: Yeah thank you.

THERAPIST: That's great!

CLIENT: Yeah I was really…

THERAPIST: Well done man!

CLIENT: Thank you!

THERAPIST: Yeah!

CLIENT: And in my head I was like "Why are you calling me? Do you call every single student and tell them?" They were like "We also wanted to let you know that you got a scholarship as well." [00:03:19] I was just like "Oh cool, great." I hadn't had my coffee yet so I was still kind of fuzzy and I was like "Oh I'm glad I picked up, I almost didn't answer this call." They're like "Yeah we'll send you some details in the mail." So I was like "Cool," and then I got off the phone with them and called my dad and he was like "What's the deal with the scholarship?" and I was like "I didn't even ask." Mom was like "You should call them back," and I was like "I'm not going to call them back." But they said they'd put something in the mail so I was hoping it would come pretty soon and there was something in the mail the next morning, on Saturday morning, so I was pretty happy about that and it was the acceptance letter and the scholarship is a merit scholarship in the amount of $24,000 a year.

THERAPIST: Holy!

CLIENT: Renewable, if I keep a 2.7 GPA.

THERAPIST: Whoa!

CLIENT: Which if that's anything like going to my undergrad it's like showing up to class basically.

THERAPIST: Not everybody's getting a free (inaudible).

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Law school.

CLIENT: (inaudible, over talking), you would probably be dropping out if you couldn't keep a 2.7.

THERAPIST: Exactly.

CLIENT: But…I mean its 40 a year…

THERAPIST: Holy!

CLIENT: So that's $24,000 off that so that would make it...that would make it practically equivalent to how much it cost to go to a school here.

THERAPIST: That is fantastic!

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:04:37]

THERAPIST: Holy mackerel. That's a big, that's a big change (laughs)

CLIENT: A big change. (over talking)

THERAPIST: Could be up to 60 off…

CLIENT: Up to 70.

THERAPIST: Up to 70? Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah this is $70,000. I mean for all intents and purposes it's effectively a full ride almost.

THERAPIST: That's amazing.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: That's fantastic man. (whistles) 70K off that's…

CLIENT: Yeah, that's the big thing with law school. It is not the best school by any stretch, they know it, everyone that applies there knows it but they're in the process of trying to like get the school to be more competitive and stuff, I've read a lot about it. But there's one way of thinking about it which is how good a school, like Emory is a better school, you know what I mean? The idea being that by going to a better school I would then set myself up to have a better career afterwards but looking at it financially, I mean you're not in debt. I mean if I go to Emory, I haven't heard from them yet but I have to assume that I wouldn't get anywhere close to that much money from Emory.

THERAPIST: Emory's private right? [00:06:05]

CLIENT: Emory's private yeah.

THERAPIST: So it's a high tuition?

CLIENT: Suffolk is private technically, I mean there's only one public law school in the state, which is brand new and they only have like probationary accreditation from the bar.

THERAPIST: Did you apply there?

CLIENT: I didn't apply, for the location; I wouldn't want to stay in town.

THERAPIST: Okay. So you did …

CLIENT: Roger Williams and Emory. And they sort of at least by their LSAT scores the Roger Williams would be the least competitive and a couple notches up would be Suffolk, then a couple notches above that would be Emory.

THERAPIST: You didn't (inaudible) or BCB?

CLIENT: No, I said I would throw applications out to there but I wanted to get these three out and then if I'm done, I have all this time and I have all this extra cash lying around I didn't know what to do with and I wanted to throw applications to schools that…like Hail Mary's I'll do it but I wasn't in that situation.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I don't have a whole bunch of cash lying around that I didn't know what to do with so I decided not to and quite frankly I don't know if I'd want to study law at Yale.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: I don't know if I would. But just to think about what that would mean to come out of law school without having $120,000 in debt…I mean that would definitely seem to provide a benefit that would outweigh however much better my education would be somewhere else. Think of how many things I wanted to do, you know? Being a public defender or something, I'm making $35,000 a year.

THERAPIST: If you make what?

CLIENT: If I made more than 30 or $40,000 a year.

THERAPIST: Is that what they pay?

CLIENT: I mean that's what the contract, the salary public defenders make right now. Some will have it differently set up like my father is able to bill hourly so they can make up to like $80,000 a year. [00:08:06]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It just, yeah that just seems to make a lot of sense to be able to come out with…it would be like $30,000.

THERAPIST: You want to be a public defender?

CLIENT: I'm not really sure, I would like to do something like that perhaps, I would definitely also like to do some stuff with international law, you know my personal statement about international law stuff and war, human rights and stuff.

THERAPIST: I'd be surprised by what you hear from Emory…

CLIENT: Yeah we'll see.

THERAPIST: It's a pretty good sign if your application was (inaudible).

CLIENT: Yeah…yeah. My opinion too I think, I was able to read one of my letters of reference, I don't know if I told you, one of my professor's let me read a copy of it. It was way beyond anything that I could have…I told Jim I shouldn't be applying to law school; I should be running for the next Pope or something, that's how highly my professor spoke of me.

THERAPIST: I'm sure (inaudible).

CLIENT: Yeah and I'm sure she spoke very highly of me too. [00:09:19] I didn't read it, I didn't really have to but I suspect that my letters of reference….

THERAPIST: Are all super.

CLIENT: Played a pretty heavy role.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: So we'll see what happens with these other schools. Really right now I don't even really care about Roger Williams because if it was between Suffolk or Roger Williams, even without the money I would go to Suffolk.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Roger Williams's kind of a moot point now.

THERAPIST: Is you applying to …is Suffolk considered a better education?

CLIENT: Not really, it depends on how you cut it, you know? Like LSAT wise they're a bit more competitive, just by their brand name value or whatever Roger Williams might carry a little bit more weight.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah. Very, very big classes. I don't know how many students are there but they're one of the largest law schools in the country and I was talking with a friend of mine who just finished her first year there and she was saying that all of her classes were like 75 to 100 people in every class. It's a good school but it's huge, you know?

THERAPIST: Interesting.

CLIENT: So basically now if I get into Emory and if Emory gives me any money, you know?

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Which I don't think they…I didn't even apply for scholarships, I didn't even really understand why they ended up giving me one but… [00:10:51]

THERAPIST: I would think too though you'd be a competitive…it would be competitive to get scholarships from a place like Emory given that…

CLIENT: I mean, I think my academic record and GPA seems pretty high, you know I have a 3.76, I graduated Summa Cum Laude, I had a whole bunch of awards and stuff upon graduation so those things look pretty good. Those are tempered by the fact that it's a state school, so there's an assumption among people that it's not as competitive as some other schools so it's somewhat easier to get those results, you know what I mean? I think that's a strong feature of my application but the big thing is the LSAT, my LSAT was 158, the median is 163 and from what I understand the LSAT, for better or worse, plays a pretty big role.

THERAPIST: The median at Emory?

CLIENT: Yeah, 163. So a little bit below, you know, but we'll see.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: (over talking) It's really exciting.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I wasn't expecting that at all. My applications were so late and so much of the time I put in to writing them, also much of that effort went into working on my disclosure statements, all of those…in my mind when I was doing the applications what I remember the most is like that stuff. Like that's what I spent the most time on so it was just surprising to see that come back.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. Yeah they must have been very taken with how you wrote about yourself, I imagine too the disclosure statement. [00:12:58]

CLIENT: Yeah I mean, I think you have to assume that they were.

THERAPIST: That's really great.

CLIENT: I'm glad though, I worked really hard on the applications, I worked harder than I would have liked to, to be honest. It was like being in school for the whole like October to February.

THERAPIST: Interesting, okay.

CLIENT: I was as centrally focused on it as I was when I was in school. I just kind of redirected that energy which was still there. So yeah I don't know, I'm happy that it paid off. I'm happy that I decided to do this on October 1st, you know what I mean, when a lot of people already had their applications in.

THERAPIST: Yeah that's a hell of an accomplishment.

CLIENT: I feel like it is. I feel like it is. I don't feel though like (pause) the just like release and just wanting to like celebrate, like pop champagne bottles and stuff though, you know, it feels very tempered.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Even when I read it I was…I haven't really told a lot of people yet or anything. [00:14:27] I don't know why. Partially because the big thing is this is called into question right now is (pause) if I decide to go to law school I'm going to have to tell the job that I'm leaving because I wouldn't be able to stay working at the union which is like…remember how difficult it was for me to say that I was going to leave this part-time job at a restaurant that I hated, I didn't even really like anyone there, now try to imagine doing that from a job that I really like where I actually really respect all the people. And it's really unclear what their expectations were in terms of how long I would stay and I feel really bad that I've been applying to law school and I haven't told them and stuff. So when I think about it my mind is like "Oh I'm going to go to law school," and I have to think about it and all I see is the potential for a really unfortunate…

THERAPIST: Its tempered by your feelings about leaving?

CLIENT: Yeah, that I'm going to tell them I got into law school and they're going to be like "Oh wow, so you got accepted for this job and you immediately started applying for law school so you could leave the union?" I had my evaluation last week before I got notice but it was very good, very positive, they were sort of indirect comments about me being, you know next year, doing this with you or next year the job could evolve into this.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I was like "Yeah, that's something I'd be interested in." [00:16:20] I didn't know at the time I got into law school but I was applying and now going back to it I just feel like I'm going to feel really bad, like I did something dishonest. You know? That's all I think about now when I think about law school.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. You tell them you're leaving and you're…(pause)

CLIENT: It feels like I'm doing something bad to them, all I can think about is the fact that this year my supervisor has spent a lot of time training me to do some of this stuff. A lot of the tasks I do there are not things that are just like one plus one, it takes kind of getting a holistic understanding of the way that everything operates so there was an investment in me.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Such that in the future I'd be able to do this stuff less supervised and (pause) I feel like if I say I'm leaving they'd be like "Wow, we just trained you for all this time now we're going to have to through someone else again. This does not come out to a huge gain for us." I like this place, I love it, I like the people, I like the work, I feel like I'm good at it. [00:18:15] In a way I want to just stay there like forever doing this work because it feels good.

THERAPIST: Huh. What about it? Tell me…

CLIENT: (pause) It's not like school in the sense that I can just try and try and try and always feel like I haven't like reached like greatness or something. Like I feel like I can feel a valuable contribution to the work being done there much more easily.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: That dynamic that I'm talking about in school, no matter how much I try it's always… success and accomplishment is always a little out of reach. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like I don't feel that here.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't. I feel like I can do well.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: In a place that I care about with work I enjoy, you know? That's really like unique you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: To think now like I've positioned myself in a way where I'm going to have to turn around and deal them a bad hand to these people. It feels really…yeah I don't know. I step back and look at an image of myself doing this and I don't like the person that I see.

THERAPIST: What do you see?

CLIENT: I see someone like my dad. [00:20:00] He goes into something and gets connected with people and then when something comes on or something that comes up that's just better for him he just says "Fuck yourself, I'm going on to better things." Yeah, very clearly I see that, my dad you know? That's just…I don't know, despicable.

THERAPIST: Yeah, no its…in a way it confronts you with…the situation only confronts you with your awareness of your desire to move on despite really feeling mixed about it because your losing something and I guess what you're saying is the way that, almost like the automatic way to define that to yourself is in terms of your father.

CLIENT: Yeah and that's not even…I feel like I have access to those insights even like before I came here to some extent. That's not like…that's pretty surface level reaction to this situation, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm. [00:21:23]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well it's very immediate and clear in some ways. Your confronted immediately by your own kind of, your own desire to have more for yourself. That goes beyond it, it's clear as day, is that what…?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Its surface…being surface it's clear that (pause)?

CLIENT: Yeah but it seems like it's a reaction to me seeing that I have multiple options.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: But I have commitments to certain options.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And those commitments mean something and I think on the one hand I don't know anyone that could actually look at the situation and say "It would literally make more sense for you personally, career wise, life wise, happiness wise for you to not go to law school and for you to stay at this 20 hour a week, $180 a week job, than go to law school." I understand that no one could tip the scales on that end and I wouldn't either. But that's what I'm thinking about it. That in no way takes into consideration like a prior commitment, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like that confirmation doesn't bring it in to account.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: But for me at least the way I foresee it now, that's the only thing that's coming up actually, like neither with how I'm able to come to terms with it.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Like it just seems like…this is a crude metaphor but it just seems like my dad is there like with my mom.

THERAPIST: I see. [00:23:20]

CLIENT: Then this other young pretty woman comes along and it just makes more sense. Make pros and cons, you know, you do it in this kind of very crude, self-serving, selfish way that makes sense. It doesn't mean it's the right thing to do necessarily.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Absolutely. I think that might be the stuff that's under the surface a little bit more.

CLIENT: I feel like it, yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: That's why I feel way more comfortable when I see situations that are presented and if any way I can roughly correlate it to that kind of thing I see in my dad, that's behavior, it just…comfortable is going as far away from the one that seems like my dad.

THERAPIST: Yeah, right.

CLIENT: Even if I talk with my dad about it and I say to him like "Oh, this is really exciting but I have this other job and I feel like I have a commitment to them," if I even said that to him he would just be like "No, no, that's not the way to think about it, it's not…" and that makes it even harder because then I feel like I'm being guided along his thought process which I don't know what to do. [00:25:01]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. Well yeah it leads you to turn away from some feeling that's very real about that situation, you know, like kind of cut it off, as if your dad is kind of recommending that kind of mode of action where you don't think about that stuff. Like the thoughts "Don't worry about it," that people say. "Don't worry about that part of it, do it for yourself," or whatever.

CLIENT: Yeah, don't worry…yeah.

THERAPIST: You know? Like literally "Don't worry, don't think about it, don't take it into account."

CLIENT: Yeah, like…in reality it is that simple, you know, didn't know you could just do that. But literally that has been like the essence of my reaction to this.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it's been great right, like your reaction was great, you were so happy and supportive and I agree but it has actually just sort of given rise to a feeling of like impending doom, like I feel so often when positive things happen, this is what happens…

THERAPIST: No I mean I got to say I think it will be a really important thing for us to kind of…to unpack and (pause) understand better.

CLIENT: We're going to have to, I'm going to have to figure this out on some level, reasonably soon. This is in like two weeks…you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah and just to say one thing is that I get the sense that part of the dynamic at play that I think kind of goes on maybe consciously and unconsciously…

CLIENT: I'm really sorry, do you mind if I just move this eleven thing because I can't see the (inaudible)?

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah, sure.

CLIENT: This is like…I'm sure…this is like my compass.

THERAPIST: Okay, yeah. [00:27:29] One thing I was thinking is like is that part of all this is that I think would be interesting to unpack is I think this is conscious and unconscious element of all this around the person will feel betrayed, some way there's a sense or feeling that the person will feel betrayed, wants you to stay.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Reacts in that kind of angry, upset, kind of abandoned manner in response to all this. That's an interesting, critical part of the construction of this scenario that's made. Obviously just to say…somewhat I was thinking like a previous job they were like "Of course." (laughs) Your like "bummer," but I was thinking…in some way my immediate response of course maybe like your dad might be or like anyone's talking "It's a 20 hour job of course they're going to be understanding about it," but that's what's the…the important part is the construction of it all. [00:29:10]

CLIENT: Yeah and it's like I was saying, your right when you put 20 hours a week…thinking about legally like the justice scale right and you put 20 hours a week, $180, the ceiling for improvement maybe being twenty hours a week in the future, like that being the most that might come out of this and then you put almost a full-ride to law school on the other…there's no question but that's…the weight on those two sides is respective to the utility that it provides me. That's not the way I'm…like my feelings of guilt and shame, they come from the precise opposite.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Which is the trouble that it brings to others.

THERAPIST: Yes!

CLIENT: Like it's not controversial, you know what I mean, it's both completely true but completely inconsequential but it would make more sense for me, at least with respect to…

THERAPIST: No that's totally right. Exactly. [00:30:42]

CLIENT: Yeah…I remember a while ago I think I was talking to you about something one day and I was saying I want to not like live like this for the rest of my life, I think I was talking like really cryptic words, probably kind of a bad mood that day or something, it's like I wasn't…I'm scared forever because I'm scared thinking that I'm going to be like this forever, I'm going to have these thoughts forever, it's going to be hard for me to sleep forever…I would say I always set up these sort of like time limits so that I could leave that wouldn't be that way, like this is what I mean.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I really, really wish that I could've gotten this notice about law school and just been really happy but the fact that pretty quickly it came…before I even told the first person about it, I had already in my mind come to "God this is going to make for a really bad thing."

THERAPIST: Yeah…dread, a lot of dread.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's going to face you.

CLIENT: And if I would even let myself feel happy and excited about it it's like I could just feel something in the back of my head like throwing up in the air like "Wow, you're really just not even thinking about these prior commitments." [00:32:17] You know?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And in a way I feel like kind of worse than I did before I got into law school, you know? That's such a story that's been over a zillion, trillion times in my head. That and I just feel like…I remember not being able to articulate with an example of what I meant when I was talking to you that day. This is what I mean.

THERAPIST: That's a very vivid, clear example of like that how something ostensibly really good and positive is not at all…its more fraught with a lot of (pause) moral ambiguity and dread, guilt…(pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, (over talking) seriously knee-jerk.

THERAPIST: Yeah it's something really deep and relevant historically to…given your dad and your mom I think. It's a question of commitment and loyalty and (pause)…what place one has to kind of find something for themselves, particularly when it clashes with what somebody else might want from them. [00:33:56]

CLIENT: Well it doesn't have to like I feel like that's when I have internalized almost, like not even what do you do in situations where an opportunity for you has to clash with someone else but like I feel like it's almost to the point where my mind has adopted this set of rules where anytime something good happens for you, it's going to come at the expense of something else and if it's not immediately clear you will continue searching until you find it. We'll find something. The assumption…you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah the assumption is that getting something good for yourself is late (over talking)…

CLIENT: Yeah and it's not apparent, your just not thinking about it.

THERAPIST: You hadn't found it yet?

CLIENT: Yeah your just not thinking enough about other people or something.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Your being selfish or something. [00:35:03] (pause) Like I even told you in other times when I have really good days sometimes and like good things happen I almost start like looking for what's coming. Those are long standing patterns of thought with me.

THERAPIST: I wondered, just to ask about it. What did it feel like to…because I think it somehow might be relevant but what did you think about cancelling Thursday? In terms of you wanted to just stay home and take care of yourself... (pause)

CLIENT: I felt bad about it. I felt…I knew that I felt pretty sick but I knew that I could have come. I wouldn't have died, might have been miserable, might not have been a very good…I physically could have gotten myself here. (pause) I typed the text a whole bunch of different ways, thinking about how to phrase it, you know, the way I do with an e-mail, I could have spoken to you about. [00:36:45] The one I decided on, because I even looked at it afterwards and I think I said "I'm going to have to cancel," and I remember looking at it afterwards and being like "Well I didn't have to, technically." (pause) I wanted to put something in initially about like "I expect you to still bill me for it," or something for short notice but…I mean it was fraught with indecision.

THERAPIST: Yeah…right. In some way you were maybe wondering what I would make of it, what I would see as needing your commitment or something like that?

CLIENT: Yeah I imagined that, I think I told you at like four…maybe you didn't have anything else going on all day and you stayed in the office just because of our appointment, maybe you could have done a whole bunch of other things with the day or…maybe someone had just offered you tickets to a great concert that you had just said "No I can't because I have an appointment at 5," or something. Do you know what I mean? This type of stuff…

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:38:10] (pause)

CLIENT: (inaudible) I don't want to live like that but I'm just thinking about it again when I'd rather not have to…I'd rather be able to kind of be sick and not have to…you know, take that. I'd prefer to rather not do that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And to not have to agonize.

CLIENT: That's like a little microcosm of this. This seems really scary to me, all these problems that seems like really, really scary dealing with this thing with the job, seems really big.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. [00:39:40]

CLIENT: Like I was able to just kind of push over the little hump that was last Thursday because I knew I'd come here on Monday and be able to see if you hated me or not.

THERAPIST: What did you feel when you got here, through that, when we saw each other out there?

CLIENT: I was just eager to just say "Sorry." And just, I don't know, get past the first couple of minutes and then know it felt like…it's cool.

THERAPIST: Yeah, in a way you were on some level wondering where was I…what was I feeling about Thursday myself about you and…

CLIENT: In a way I almost didn't even really (pause) I didn't almost like legitimately fear that you were going to be upset about it but almost as if someone else was trying to get in my head like to a confident me that you weren't upset, like someone else would be like "Oh, you never know, you never know." I almost just wanted to like get past the first couple of minutes and be like (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:41:21]

CLIENT: It's cool.

THERAPIST: What would it have meant if I was upset about it, what did you…(pause).

CLIENT: You would've been upset, I would've done something that would have…

THERAPIST: Done something to me?

CLIENT: Yeah. It would have been inconsiderate, I would have (pause) I don't know, I would've made you mad.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: I would've done something to you that would have made me question the confidence I have that we're going to see each other on Thursday.

THERAPIST: That we'd see each other next…yeah.

CLIENT: That I'm going to see you this Thursday. I've become relatively confident with that.

THERAPIST: Maybe in some way I take something away from you, I take this away? Because of your behavior or something like that?

CLIENT: Yeah it sounds very…(laughs), it sounds very kind of just (pause). But your right.

THERAPIST: Is that what…?

CLIENT: Yeah that I would have done something to…I don't know, yeah. [00:43:00] Like cook you dinner (laughs).

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I would make a meal. Then I would have left here feeling pretty bad. (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah right.

CLIENT: And it's not like you said too, I don't think about it like this a lot but like I have an image in my head of August and like law school being down one road and then everything else being down another road, I don't think I really give credit to it but the way that's law school doesn't just represent the road my dad took but was literally like (inaudible). I don't give credit to that enough sometimes I think.

THERAPIST: Right, right.

CLIENT: You brought that up one time and it really, I was like "Wow, that's right." [00:44:24]

THERAPIST: Listen before we end I do have to bring something up with you. So I heard from back from your insurance company and like there was last year when we began there's a deductible.

CLIENT: It's an annual deductible?

THERAPIST: It's an annual deductible, yeah.

CLIENT: How much?

THERAPIST: Its $1500.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. To tell you the truth it's…

CLIENT: Did you know that?

THERAPIST: I figured that it probably would be, most plans are.

CLIENT: I thought that was a one-time thing.

THERAPIST: And I felt like maybe you, until I got it I didn't think about the fact that you probably didn't…we never discuss the…I didn't know if you were aware of that or not but yeah, yeah. Listen I know that you're in a financial (laugh) and also I know what it means to have this kind of existing between us, I want to…

CLIENT: I'm not uncomfortable with you talking…this is important.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. But all that to say like you know looking at how you…how you want to handle it and how you can handle it and how much time you need and all that stuff, I'm pretty flexible, I feel like I know you.

CLIENT: I appreciate that. What would that even…the bills were flagged so does that mean like more? I mean do you need like $1500 from me?

THERAPIST: Yeah at some point. So here's what happens is when I submit the claims to your insurance, so I did it for January and February, January because we're meeting twice a week, I think we had a total of nine meetings so it ended up being the fifteen hundred dollars or something. They don't pay me, they expect you to pay me because they don't kick in coverage until the thousand dollar deductible has been met. [00:46:41]

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: In other words I haven't gotten paid because they expect you to pay me.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: They don't start paying out until that has been met, just like it was last year. The deductible starts up again every…

CLIENT: So would that be $1500 minus what I paid you in January or?

THERAPIST: That's a good question.

CLIENT: I'm not trying to nickel and dime you, I'm just trying to figure out what I need to…sort out. So starting January 1st until you get $1500 from me, you get nothing from them?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Have you got $1500 from me yet? Are you getting anything from them yet?

THERAPIST: I've got about fifty dollars from them. For January because when I billed them for those nine visits it was like fifty dollars…it ended up being that they would cover $1050 or something like that and you'd cover that $312 or whatever so the money would come to me.

CLIENT: Okay so they think that you from me?

THERAPIST: From you, yeah.

CLIENT: Okay. [00:47:54] So then would that be figuring out what I gave you for January and subtracting that from a thousand?

THERAPIST: It's not, it's entirely dependent. It's what they show that they…

CLIENT: Oh right, right because that was two things, them and the money I gave you.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Ahh.

THERAPIST: You gave me the co-pay portion of it and they pay the remainder of the fee.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: They're 80 percent or whatever. (pause) Just to give you a bill so you can have for your records.

CLIENT: As if I was (inaudible)?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Cool, alright.

THERAPIST: Just in terms of brainstorming you might want to check if your mom has a health savings account or something like that because sometimes they'll use that to kind of offset the deductive cost, like their employer will kind of…

CLIENT: Health savings account?

THERAPIST: Yeah, your mom will know.

CLIENT: Because it's my mother's insurance right?

THERAPIST: Yeah that's right, right? It's still your mother's…

CLIENT: Yeah it's my mother's insurance plan. A health savings account?

THERAPIST: Yeah if she has a health savings account or something from her employer that offsets the deductibles, some…I don't know what the number or percentage of employers that do that but it's a pretty good chunk. [00:49:23]

CLIENT: I've never even heard of that phrase before. I'll look into it.

THERAPIST: Yeah you should talk to your mom about it and say "Hey listen this is what came up and…is there anything we do that we do in these situations?" Just let me know, I understand it doesn't sound like your flush with cash so just tell me how you want to pay off and I'm sure I'd be…

CLIENT: I appreciate that.

THERAPIST: I can be flexible with you.

CLIENT: Were you under the assumption that I knew this and was just not getting it to you?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: This is the first I…

THERAPIST: I kind of assumed you might not have realized…I just got the bill from them or the statement of how much coverage they, how much they've covered, it took them over…it usually takes about a month to process the claim. So I submitted these claims like February 1st, it took them until March 5th or something.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: To process it and so I go "Oh yeah, okay," and realized we had to talk it over.

CLIENT: Well yeah, I like being able to talk with you about money in here but I mean $1300 comes, it's over, we need to figure out what we need to do so just…

THERAPIST: No, no, no!

CLIENT: I really, really appreciate your flexibility with that. [00:50:46] Let me start thinking about this and one other thing. We mentioned a long time ago, you're away sometime in March?

THERAPIST: Yeah next week.

CLIENT: Next week?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Oh, glad I asked. Can I write that down?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: So you're here this Thursday?

THERAPIST: I'm here this Thursday but gone the 18th and the 21st. I'll be back the 25th.

CLIENT: Gone the…

THERAPIST: We won't meet the 18th or 21st and we'll pick back up the 25th.

CLIENT: Alright, thank you.

THERAPIST: Okay man.

CLIENT: Take care.

THERAPIST: I'll see you.

END TRANSCRIPT