TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: So I don't have a check today. If I – I was going to write one for you, but I was going to have to ask you to wait until you cashed it anyways (sic).

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So if I could give it to you on Thursday, that would be ideal.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And, I guess, just moving forward, if it's Ok, would the – as we kind of discussed the – my payment with my dad, getting a big, lump sum of money on like the 9th or the 10th of each month –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – so the next time we meet after that would be the time that I would most be able to – to pay you, if that's Ok. If not I could try to work something out with –

THERAPIST: Oh, that's fine.

CLIENT: Ok. That way just instead of me thinking I'm going to be able to pay on the first –

THERAPIST: Yeah, (inaudible).

CLIENT: – sweet, that's good.

THERAPIST: Yeah, we can do that. Yeah.

CLIENT: So what – what – what were we talking about the last couple of weeks? I feel like we've been on kind of a thread. [00:01:19]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Which has been good.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. Have you been – have you found – is it hard to kind of remember where you –

CLIENT: I haven't been – you know, sometimes I feel like I really stew on things that we talk about.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Or –

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: Or I mean I – I guess like I – when – you know as we – for the – the initial period of time that I first started coming in, I think I was talking about things that were, you know, immediately going on with me, like these – school, this kind of stuff. And I think that just lead me to thinking about the things we were talking about a lot more, just because we were talking about things that were going on, you know what I mean? But as we were talking about things, which I guess is not too uncommon in this type of stuff, that has occurred, maybe not so immediately, I don't find myself thinking so much about it. [00:02:30]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Um –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – so I just thought (inaudible) my dad, just so – I literally haven't even thought about it for an inst – like an instant really.

THERAPIST: Yeah, huh. Is that right?

CLIENT: Which I guess is not surprising, right, because it's not things – you know, if there were things that I was kind of thinking about a lot, I guess, it would – it's – the point is to sort of think about things here that I don't just sort of stumble upon on my own, you know what I mean? And when it doesn't pertain to the things that are sort of playing out immediately, I don't think about them quite as much, which is bizarre because I – for a while, I remember, I would really stew on the things that we talked about. Like –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – like – like this almost never ended for me. I would just keep thinking about it in my head –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – until the next appointment.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Like, it's not even my dad. I just like – it just kind of stops when I leave here.

THERAPIST: Ok.

CLIENT: You know? Which is – which is bizarre, because typically, I feel pretty – I feel like I'm still thinking about it on some level, but I think just the stuff about – like my dad and the wedding and stuff, I really do kind of just fall out of it when I'm not here. [00:03:50]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I don't – and even though I – I talk to my dad a lot, you know, the stuff that we talk about with respect to my dad doesn't – I almost have to pull it out a little bit.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: It won't just sort of rise up to the surface on its own –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – so to speak, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Um –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – and it's weird because I'll have like – you know, I think we were talking about a lot of really colorful stuff, about the things that were kind of frustrating me about my dad, particularly with respect to some things that happened a couple of weeks ago, like the e-mail and everything, which was really upsetting for me. But, you know, then I would talk to my dad – I talked to my dad the other day and I don't know, we just had this really – you know, we were talking about law school. I was telling him that I was going to the orientation and he was just being very congratulatory –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – towards me and – you know, if I was – you know, I feel like on some levels I'm – you know, with respect to seeming rational or something like – I have these conversations here and I sort of get in touch with the stuff that makes me realize that like I'm really frustrated with my dad and all that, you know? [00:05:25]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And then I go and I talk to him sometimes, though, and when it just takes – when it just goes in this very kind of rosy and happy and sunny direction, I have no desire – you know, not desire, but I have no – I feel like it just sort of gets pulled in this direction, which is like so far from what I leave here sometimes thinking I should do, you know?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And it's – you know what – does that make sense?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Like I'm here and I'm like, ‘God, yeah, like I'm really angry at my dad.' Like I have a lot of stuff that really, really, really makes me like deeply, deeply frustrated with him, about things that have happened in the past, but in ways, things that are even still happening, you know? And it's – so when I leave here, I – I feel like I'm going to not act the same way with my dad because I know this stuff now –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – or I feel confident about this (inaudible). But then when this stuff happens, I – I don't know. It leaves me with just a not a good feeling or something.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Like I'm not living up to something, I'm not being strong or something. [00:06:46]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: You know, and –

THERAPIST: Hmm. Yeah, well what's the something, you think? What – what is it – living up to something. What are you thinking, or – you find yourself feeling like?

CLIENT: I mean, there's things that really bother me about my dad. I mean, it's hard – I guess it's just hard for – you know, in a lot ways, my dad will have a really like – and we've spoken about this. Like, if you sat down in a room with me and my dad, like you'd look at us and be like, ‘Wow, this seems like a really healthy, communicative, like engaged, like intimate relationship between father and son, like' –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – and when we – when I sit – and – and I feel that, like in a weird, like delusional way almost.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Like when I'm talking to him sometimes, it's like –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: – I – I can like feel that transpiring between, even though I can also like see it as like a thinly veiled kind of substance –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – but like –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – when I leave here sometimes and I – I – I feel like, ‘Yeah, I've – I'm angry at him.' And I'm angry at him in ways that are complicated because I've never spoken to him about it, because I felt like I never could or I never wanted to, or I thought it wasn't the right thing to do, or –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – it seemed – or I felt like I was doing something good for my dad by not or something. It – it puts – it seems to put a lot of pressure on – like pointing to the fact that like I should be saying this stuff to him, you know? [00:08:29]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Like when I leave here sometimes, I feel like, ‘Yeah, like that's – that's like the solution or something to this,' you know?

THERAPIST: Hmm. I see.

CLIENT: But in – this – the – but then when I like go to like talk to my dad, like very quickly it like – just like kind of fizzles off, you know?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And evaporates, and it's – it's a weird dynamic, because like on the one hand, it makes me like not want to talk to my dad for a while.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: because sometimes I feel like the more I don't talk to him and the more time I have to like build up this momentum that feels good.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: You know? At least I can think to myself like ways that I can –

THERAPIST: (coughs)

CLIENT: – like re-imagine the relationship and my sort of position in it. But when I talk to my dad, it's just like – it just seems – a lot of that stuff just seems very futile. It seems –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – almost abstract, or something.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And in a way, I see like a real conflict between like what I leave sessions here feeling –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – and – I mean, it's like I leave here with something and there's like an antidote like with –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – what happens when I talk to my dad, you know what – does that make sense?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: And then I just – it's frustrating. And it – it – it – it's sort of like I'm here, I'm not talking to my dad, I'm talking to you. And like this one thing – these scales kind of go like this (gestures), and then I leave here and the more I talk to my dad, the more it's like this (gestures). And then I kind of come back here (gestures) –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – and it's – you – you know what I mean? [00:10:09]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, yeah, and it's – it's been – I guess it's been one thing that you've been – you've been describing is this – is this kind of feeling that – or this – this kind of awareness of a – a difficulty bringing – you know, know – knowing where to – where to kind of stow these – these thoughts, this kind of way of seeing your – your relationship with your dad when you're with him. It – it – it – I kind of get a sense that there – it – it's incompatible with relating to your dad in some way.

CLIENT: Uh-huh. Yeah, I mean I think we've –

THERAPIST: When you're with –

CLIENT: – I think we've even spoken of that like the last couple of appointments, I think we even touched on the idea that – point – what – there's a real utility in my not kind of like directly engaging with some of this stuff, and that it let me really remain like close with him, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: I think – you know, if you like really pay attention to that, it just seems natural that the more I muster that stuff up, the harder it's going to be for me to want to feel like I can be close, I want to be close to him, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: That just seems like a very logical sort of outcome of that, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: But I don't know if that's something I would be comfortable doing, right now at least, you know? [00:11:40]

THERAPIST: Wh – which –

CLIENT: I don't know if I'm comfortable with the possibility of me like – really like mixing things up with my dad right now.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Hmm.

CLIENT: But I feel like I – I feel like when I pull at some of this stuff, like that has to kind of move with it, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I think that's why I don't think about that –

THERAPIST: (coughs)

CLIENT: – when I'm not here, you know?

THERAPIST: You don't – that's why you don't what?

CLIENT: That's why I don't – I think I don't stew upon it when I'm not here –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: – you know what I – when I'm not here, I talk – I have to talk to my dad –

THERAPIST: Well, when you're not – yeah, yeah, you're working with him and thinking – yeah, no wonder it's then hard to kind of place, ‘Where were we at?' Like you – almost like you were sort of saying at the beginning of the hour, ‘What – what were we talking about?' It's really gone out of mind and –

CLIENT: Because I feel like I get 50 minutes in this controlled environment, right – I know my dad's not going to call, I'm not going to talk to him.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? But that – I want – this environment is like very, very different –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: – you know? And some – in – in ways I kind of regret it now that I went and started working with my dad, because now I need to get money – you know, I need to get paid and I need to keep this going with my dad now, financially, you know what I mean? [00:12:58]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And those are all things that I seem to like subtly like push back on – I feel like something that we're doing here.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: And I would probably eventually say that I think like in totality those things, I guess not surprisingly, are like – I feel like are real obstacles sometimes to the things that we do here.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Does that make sense?

THERAPIST: Well, yeah. I mean, I – yeah. No, I – I think – I think that's – you're depicting exactly how it – it seems to play out. And – and you – you know in another way, though, I – I kind of hear – may – maybe this is – may – maybe this is – this is more of a speculation, but I was thinking that in some way, among the reasons why, you know, you're working with your dad is – is like maybe there's something in it in terms of you've opened up a lot of – of ways you've kind of been rethinking what – what – who your dad is and what the relationship has been like with your dad over the years. And the way I see it is that there is something of – that you've always been trying in some way – or there – there – there's been a sense of – of this side of how you perceive your father and how you perceive your relationship with him, how you perceive the relationship with him, how you perceive him as a dad, as a husband to your mom, how in – in a lot of ways you've had, you know, some kind of sense of there's more to think about it then – then the story we've been going by. And it's – the – the way I would see it is like with you working with your dad and kind of being clo – kind of like more close than may – than maybe you have in a while is some – some way of (coughs) – or opens up the potential for some new way of – of – I don't know if it's dealing with him, but – well, re-engaging. Re-engaging him. Maybe it's through actually talking with him or in dealing with him, or – but a lot is happening in your mind around it. [00:15:21]

CLIENT: Uh-huh. Yeah, almost as – looking at it as a way of maybe like more continuing something going on here then doing something that's opposed to it, necessarily.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean, it –

THERAPIST: And – and you know, I think even – I – I – I assume, too, that it's also like going to law school is – is – as you were noticing, it was like brining up ways that your – you're – you're like your dad and ways in which you're not –

CLIENT: Hmm.

THERAPIST: – you know? And – and –

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: – something about going to law school, too, is bringing this –

CLIENT: Hmm.

THERAPIST: – yeah, yeah. I think it leaves an open question, ‘So what do you and your dad really have together?' And it – you're trying to find it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know?

CLIENT: I – yeah. That would be a good way to wrap it up, you know, ‘What do me and my dad have together?' Like what is the – the substance of our relationship?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But yes, it seems like an abundantly obvious question that I guess shouldn't seem so like revelatory, but – (pause) yeah, I don't know what we – what we have together. Like the way that I feel about it – like I – I talk to you about it a lot, when I was younger. Like when I was in middle school and in high school, and my parents were kind of splitting up, and there was just like a lot of – a lot of noise, a lot of stuff going on that I just kind of felt like I had to just sort of get through –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – and there was going to be like an out on the other end or something. [00:017:29]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: You know, like, if you're like – like swimming under – like in a pond, and like it's frozen over and there's like an opening –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – like I definitely – I saw it like that. Like I recognized that it was like a – a not desirable period of my life and there was like something on the other end, be it going to college and getting out of the house, be it –

THERAPIST: What years are you talking about?

CLIENT: I mean I –

THERAPIST: Would you say?

CLIENT: If you press me on it, like it's hard – the more I think about specifics, the less it – I seem to be able to – I – I don't know. It just like – middle school, high school, just some very unclear period of time –

THERAPIST: Ok.

CLIENT: – that I – only seems to like make sense in just a very like un – unspecific like reflection of my –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – you know?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But – you know, like as my parents are splitting up, I suppose, like during that time, specifically. Like as – when my dad moved out and I was kind of like going between homes and stuff. Like on some level I think I – I acknowledged very sort of subtly and not directly that like, ‘This kind of sucks, but this is made worse by certain factors like my age, I have to live at home, I have to see my parents, I'm reliant upon them for money' –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – ‘I'm not independent.' And I think I just sort of had this like big brackets around like a period of my life. Like now, I don't live at home, I don't have to see my mother every single day. You know, just things that I – that just seemed like – like there was an out, you know? And in a way I think I was right. In a way, I think a lot of things – and I've spoken to you about this – I think a lot of things relaxed a lot as I moved away from living at home through – as I got more independent, as I sort of sketched out on my own way for more and more, you know what I mean? [00:19:50]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: As I replaced things that were sort of encompassed purely by my parents with things that I was able to sort of sketch out, like my own home, my own schedule, my own set of practice – you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: In a way, I feel like a lot of stuff, I've been able to like recreate. And I – I do think in a lot of ways it has made things a lot more relaxing for me, and it's made it sort of – I can sort of bracket it off. And instead of having to live in that environment 24/7, I can go in to it in –

THERAPIST: Ah.

CLIENT: – phone calls or weekends or –

THERAPIST: Ah.

CLIENT: – holidays.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: I can step out of it.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: So I can see that distinction in some ways.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And you know, there's no – I don't have any furniture in my house. There's one thing in my house that like I had growing up, and I notice it when I look at it. All the other stuff was from Joe, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: What is it?

CLIENT: There's – there's – it's a rug. And it's like a rug we used to have in our – in one of our houses growing up.

THERAPIST: Ok.

CLIENT: And like I almost want to get rid of it for that reason, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So I – I feel like I have these two categories, but I feel like my relationship with my dad is still like completely something I relate with in the way I related with everything back then. Like it's still something that I need to get through. [00:21:21]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: It's not something – it – it's not something – it's – it's a – it's an unfortunate thing that is a stage that needs to just sort of be swallowed, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. You hold your breath –

CLIENT: Until you get to the other end. Yeah.

THERAPIST: You get to the other end and then –

CLIENT: And that's what I feel like, is like every single thing – in a lot of ways that goes on with us –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – is, you know? It seems very much still kind of dictated by those forces, you know?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And uniquely so, I think. You know, even the – my relationship with my mom has taken a very different dynamic in a lot of ways. Like where we were even able to have a conversation that we had that night when she gave me the money and –

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: – said that thing about the past, which – which could only really have been done unless my mother and I had gotten to a very different place such that she could even speak about it as the past. I mean –

THERAPIST: Well, yeah (inaudible) –

CLIENT: – me and my dad, we're still living that –

THERAPIST: Yes, you –

CLIENT: – you know?

THERAPIST: – don't have to hold your breath. I mean, that conversation was, to give you an example, of not holding your breath.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I – yeah, holding – I guess that metaphor, you can – like holding a breath. You can like speak it and even –

THERAPIST: Ah.

CLIENT: – being emotive or something, you know?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Yes.

CLIENT: Like –

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: – you know? And in – in a way, it's like that has really been recreated with my mom in certain ways. There's still elements to it that evoke uncomfortable stuff, you know what I mean? But there's been progress away from that. But for me and my dad, like I really feel like when I talk to him like I'm back in like 7th grade or something, like –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – almost like we're still going through it or something, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Like there's been some like reconciliation almost between my mother and I. [00:23:20]

THERAPIST: It's been frozen – frozen.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: To use your – you know, to use your metaphor more, there's something frozen about it.

CLIENT: Yeah, like things have thawed out or something with my mother and I, but like I haven't even like gotten –

THERAPIST: Yes, yes.

CLIENT: – broken the ice – you know what I mean? Like I feel like I'm still experiencing it with him.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Like it's never ceased or something.

THERAPIST: It's really – that's a really apt way to put that, yeah.

CLIENT: So I feel like I'm still in this like – like in a way like back like – back then like I – I sort of recognized I was in a temporary crisis mode and it was going to subsume, you know? And in a way I think it made me like – it helped me justify all sorts of destructive behavior, like smoking and just not being healthy, because it's like, ‘This is just to get through this like period.'

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: You know? But that's still what it feels like with me and my dad, whereas a lot of other things have relaxed.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I feel more like in control of a lot of other aspects in life, but I don't with my dad.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Which doesn't mean it can't feel good at times, because it does, you know. And it did.

THERAPIST: Like it did that way with the – in talking about school –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like there's still a potential for that, you know. And that – and that's still like a part of it in a weird way. But it's (pause) – yeah, it's still something I – it's – it's still like stuck in that stage of (laughs) development or whatever. Like it hasn't got beyond that, you know?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And that's what I feel the substance of my relationship with my dad is. [00:25:16]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Like that kind of – you know, almost like delusional like hallucinatory, weird thing –

THERAPIST: (coughs)

CLIENT: – that just seems to fly so much in the face of reality.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: You know? And I feel like – I feel like it – it was good that we did that for a while.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: But I think it was like destructive that I lived like that for a while, but I think it really did help in a lot of ways, you know what I mean? Like it helped get through a certain period.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But I feel like it has kind of outlived its purpose in a way –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – you know?

THERAPIST: How did it help? What is your – what do you – what are you – you – what are you referring to, do you think? What – what did you find helpful?

CLIENT: I still talk to my parents. I think it shielded some things from my mother that I think I'm glad it did. Like I – I – I guess what I'm describing is like going through it in that way, which means me not – me kind of acting like things were cool – in a way I'm kind of glad – I think that that probably made it a little easier for my mom.

THERAPIST: You – it made it easier for your mom, yeah.

CLIENT: I think it – I think it made a difficult set of years difficult, but not difficult to the extent they could have been. If I was freaking out –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – and you know – I don't know, failing out of school and getting involved with drugs – I don't know. [00:27:20]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? Like I – I feel like I – it – it could have been worse. And (pause) I – I don't think I could have got through like high school or something if things didn't get more sort of shaken up, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: You – so you – you could have got –

CLIENT: I don't think I could have – I felt like in a lot of times I was like on the brink of like what I could even handle –

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: – you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Well, yeah. What did you – yeah, tell me.

CLIENT: Like I was horribly anxious in high school.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

CLIENT: You know? I couldn't get to school sometimes because I was so freaking out, driving like in circles, like obsessing if I like ran something over.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What – what would it be?

CLIENT: I mean, a million things. Me leaving the house, me thinking my girlfriend was pregnant, me –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: – not sleeping, you know? Me thinking Eric hated me, you know?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Of course, I always did. Me, you know, freaking out (inaudible) my mom, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like I felt I was at the boiling over point almost, like throughout the whole period –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: – you know? And – and –

THERAPIST: To be honest, too, nobody really knew how much this was –

CLIENT: I don't think I did –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: – in a way.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I'm speaking about it –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: – from a perspective that I can really only do from – from here. [00:28:58]

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: No, I definitely don't think so.

THERAPIST: Ok. Ok.

CLIENT: That's something that I think I've discovered –

THERAPIST: Ok.

CLIENT: – I knew.

THERAPIST: Ok.

CLIENT: But I was like –

THERAPIST: Ok.

CLIENT: – I was very unhealthy. I – I was chronically like freaked out about all sorts of things.

THERAPIST: You were really, really handcuffed by all this –

CLIENT: Oh, God, yeah.

THERAPIST: Ok.

CLIENT: You know, and all the things I could list for you that don't seem like immediately like related to it, you know, but –

THERAPIST: No, because I remember the report doesn't mention anything about – didn't – it didn't mention anything about kind of obsession or –

CLIENT: Oh, no. Even then – yeah. And like – like I drove to that appointment – I would have been like outside for like 15 minutes checking my car probably before I went in.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Big time. Yeah. Absolutely.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Ok.

CLIENT: And – yeah, I mean, because I – I was like at the – that was the part at which I got really bad, that's when I actually went to my doctor, because I was like – I just can't get my work done – like work on school work.

THERAPIST: No wonder.

CLIENT: Yeah, I didn't really understand why.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But I was just like – you know, it started – it started – something started to give like that – it was like I couldn't pull back.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: You know? Like I could with a lot of things –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – but I mean I was horribly, horribly anxious. [00:30:29]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean, I don't even like to think about it, you know?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Like – yeah. It was – you know, like I thought I was going insane –

THERAPIST: You did?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What was hard – yeah, well –

CLIENT: I don't know, I thought – I thought my girlfriend was pregnant.

THERAPIST: Oh, right, right.

CLIENT: I thought I was going to run away and not go home. Like – like I don't even like to think about it the shit that I would think –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – like it seems like really not good, you know? I don't like to think – I don't like to admit that I was like in that kind of place even –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – you know?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: But I – yeah. But I think – I think (laughs) it would have been a lot worse for my mom, or my dad, or for me, even, if that was like dinner table conversation, that that stuff was even going on.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: If they knew about it, what – what then? What if they knew?

CLIENT: Then my mom would have immediately drawn a conclusion that because she's getting divorced, I was falling apart.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Which I might have been, I don't know, you know?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But that's not what I would have wanted –

THERAPIST: Yeah, that would have been –

CLIENT: – that would have just made it worse.

THERAPIST: Yeah. What would it have done if she – if she had known that?

CLIENT: Then my mother just wouldn't have a divorce to worry about, but she would have felt like she was like killing me or something. [00:31:58]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And I didn't want that, because I didn't feel like she was doing that.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I didn't think – I thought it was – I felt like it was her fault. I felt like – I feel like it wasn't her fault –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – I was worried. I don't know. But I mean, regardless, I just didn't want that – that – I didn't want to put that on my parents.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: That's what I didn't want, though. It just didn't seem right, didn't seem –

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, it was – if – just like the slip, you just had a – it was a thought that wasn't something that was to be spoken or – or thought in some way.

CLIENT: You know, I don't know. Even when I think about it now, maybe – you know, maybe on the one level I – I – I – the way that I've come to make sense of it is that I would think to myself – I mean, I guess this is inconsistent, what I'm saying, because I – I – I was really upset in a lot of different ways and it was playing out in a lot of different ways. But I definitely didn't – I definitely wasn't even aware of it at the time. That was definitely something I really only acknowledged far later on. [00:33:15]

THERAPIST: Yes. Yes. Yeah.

CLIENT: So the – the way that I'm even explaining it now that I sort of like intentionally and proactively decided to like not discuss it because – with these reasons that I have –

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah. I'm not – I don't have that impression.

CLIENT: But I mean that – that was the impression that I have kind of convinced myself of –

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: – like these reason – you know?

THERAPIST: Oh, Ok.

CLIENT: But I guess – that doesn't even seem logical, like it was probably more that I just didn't think that that would have been possible. How could that have been – I probably didn't – I – I probably wasn't holding back saying that stuff. I probably just didn't even –

THERAPIST: Uh-hmm.

CLIENT: – I didn't even think that it could have been because of that.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I probably thought it had to be because of something – I mean a lot about this – I took this acne medication, this stuff called Accutane –

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: – which I think is like illegal now, you know what I mean? I mean this stuff – I had to like sign a waiver –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: – that my dermatologist gave me and it was all these things about suicide and depression and stuff. And I think I – I think when I started to feel this stuff, I think I was like, ‘Oh, what could this stuff be coming from?' You know? And I was taking these pills, and it was probably like, ‘Oh, man, it's probably about this medication or something' –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – you know? I think I pointed the stuff from that –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: – but I don't even think at the time that I even thought it could have been possible that it was coming from that. [00:34:43]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah. Well, now what do you – it did its job in a certain way. I mean, like in a – like the – this – the – there was a way a lot of things couldn't be thought of and – and so the – it's almost like the anxiety was so unrelated or un – it was hard to attribute the anxiety to anything but something foreign, something – or something – you know, something unrelated to your – your parent's divorce, or what you were feeling and what was going in the family.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Yeah, and – and I think – yeah, I mean I was really – I mean, I really don't like to think about it because I – it's like – it makes me sad to think about who I was –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – and like the thoughts I was having and so I generally – I genuinely just want to go back and give myself a hug or something –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – because I was like –

THERAPIST: Hmm, yeah.

CLIENT: – I was really not happy. I was miserable.

THERAPIST: You probably needed it. Yeah.

CLIENT: And – and the same way that like I feel sad when I think back like – to myself, like that's what my mom would have felt, you know?

THERAPIST: Hmm. Yes.

CLIENT: That's the way I make sense of it now. I think I was – maybe – maybe I didn't have a way of making sense of it, but I think I was acutely aware of the things that seemed to signal that my mother was like in distress or something. [00:36:25]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I think that – without me even knowing it, I think that's what I was sort of bouncing off of, you know?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And getting upset by.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And I didn't even really kind of know it, you know? But that's the shit that sticks out, like that day out in the soccer field with my mom and I saw that book, you know, about the – get divorced.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I was just like – just sad for my mom or something. Like those are like the – those are like the big bleeps that seem to stick out to me now, just moments like that, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Like when I would see my mom a certain way or something and she just seemed really sad or something, I guess. I knew she was smoking and she didn't want to tell me, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And those – yeah, I mean, I feel like those are the things that I didn't want to exacerbate.

THERAPIST: Well, her – her sadness really had a profound impact on you.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: It really meant something really important to you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Oh, yeah. It still does. You know? It still is something that I –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like my mom is taking this medication now. And I know it, but I just don't even think about it. [00:37:58]

THERAPIST: What does she take?

CLIENT: This – the rheumatoid arthritis medication.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: You know? Like I don't even – I talk to her and it doesn't even come up. But I know it. She doesn't even bring it up, you know?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I just – I can't even bring it into my head.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: You know? Like she showed me – we were in the car the other day – like her ankles, and they were swol – they were like softballs, they were so swollen from this.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: You know, she's been on the medication and had – she says it's helping –

THERAPIST: Yes, yes.

CLIENT: – and like I – I wanted to like – I was driving. I wanted to just park the car and get out and just like run away from the car.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you say more – what – what was it – what was it about?

CLIENT: I – I – that's just a very knee-jerk response –

THERAPIST: Yes. Yeah, it is.

CLIENT: – I have no idea why.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But I – I think it's like the most unpleasant thing I could possibly imagine.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I have no idea –

THERAPIST: What was it – can you say more about what your reaction was? Like you were aware of wanting to get out of the car, or stop and park it and – and – what – what –

CLIENT: I wanted to start crying, I wanted to – I wanted to press rewind and not let it happen, I didn't want to see it.

THERAPIST: Ah.

CLIENT: I didn't – I didn't want to – I wanted to like throw it up, you know?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I wanted to bang my head really hard and forget that I saw it or something.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Just try to start talking about something else, you know? I felt really sad for my mom.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I felt really sad for her.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And I have nothing to do with that. I have no way to – to try and make that better or something. [00:40:06]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: You know? I felt like I did in some ways, you know? That's what I think, the way I've come to make sense of it.

THERAPIST: What was it?

CLIENT: Was I think, in the same, like when I saw my mom's ankles the other day, I think – but I'm not (inaudible) really sad, but I felt like I had something to do about it –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: – which was not make it worse. I –

THERAPIST: You did have something that you could do about it.

CLIENT: You know, I could not – I mean, let her know that I was really upset or something –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? That's the speculation about maybe what I was – what process was going on in the back of my mind, you know? But like at that moment I didn't have – I didn't have anything, you know?

THERAPIST: (coughs)

CLIENT: Like I didn't have – there – there – I couldn't – I almost wanted to like – to see a way that I was making it happen so I could make it stop or something, you know what I mean? Like there's no – I – I couldn't do anything.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: She was just handed it –

CLIENT: What was I going to do, you know? What could anyone do?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: What could I do? You know?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And that was just – that – it's like the – the limit.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: You know? You can't stay friends with – you know? I felt like that's what I was doing when I was staying cool with my dad. Even like me staying cool with my dad was so that my mom could see that I was cool with my dad, so that she didn't think that her son hated her (sic) dad or something. [00:41:45]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? Like I – where – there's nothing – there's nothing – there wasn't anything I could do like that.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: There was just nothing I could do, you know? Like that – and that – that's the only thing I can really react to that with saying, was I felt like – immediately I like frantically looked for like something I could grab on to, but like –

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: – it was nothing.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, it was like the divorce was – she was afflicted with the – like a – like the – like something equivalent – the emotional equivalent of rheumatoid arthritis, where she was stricken by something and she was suffering. And what you could do was try to make it seem like you wouldn't add to it, you wouldn't contribute to that. And what I also say is it seems like – it seems like you're also saying that – I mean, almost implying that it would have been this – if you did show her what you were feeling – you know, if you – if you were to come to kind of have a space be – even within yourself to think about it, to show it in whatever way, to have it be instantiated in some way (coughs), she might have felt the same way you did about her, that she could – she was – how – you know, she – you – you were – you were stricken by the divorce.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. That's why she doesn't talk to me about the rheumatoid arthritis, she hasn't mentioned it to me since she started taking the medication. And it's on her mind like crazy, I can tell it is. But she won't bring it up to me. [00:43:29]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And I'm sure for reasons not unlike what we've been discussing.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I mean, in a way, we're playing the same game with each other, right? She doesn't want to make – she doesn't want me to worry about it.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that's what – yeah, that's exactly –

CLIENT: I don't want her to worry about me.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: You don't want to make her life more difficult for herself.

THERAPIST: Yeah. There's almost like this kind of feeling of like there's an unbearable kind of sadness or a real deep sadness around her, and – and helpless to do anything about it. It's – to see the other person suffering and sadness in response –

CLIENT: My mom has something she can do about it, she cannot talk to me about it.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And the rheumatoid arthritis isn't a – then it's a lesser of a thing –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: – then if the rheumatoid arthritis was something that was like daily inflicting me with despair, sorrow, she was calling me and talking to me about it –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I don't have any – I don't have any – like that – that's the way I'm used to reacting to that kind of stuff, if I'm not – you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like what – how can I turn myself into like a receptacle for something instead of letting it go to her, you know?

THERAPIST: Ah.

CLIENT: There's nothing – you know, in that situation, that I could do.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I don't know. That – that – that's – that's – that's my – that's my read on it. And my reaction to it.

THERAPIST: (coughs)

CLIENT: But yeah, I think we're definitely playing the same game in a lot of ways. I think we're both like a – I think we're – I think like when we really look at each sometimes we both just see things that make each other sad. [00:45:27]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: You know? (pause) And it just seems like such an injustice that – I don't know. I feel like everything I do towards my mom is like geared towards like trying to be sensitive to her feelings and stuff.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I think she's deserving of that, for some reason, I guess. I couldn't maybe say exactly why.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: But I don't think my dad is deserving of that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it bothers me that the same thing seems to be going on for my dad, you know? He seems –

THERAPIST: The same thing –

CLIENT: – to be taking the same like –

THERAPIST: Oh? Yeah, what?

CLIENT: Like I – like I'm martyring myself for my mom or something, but that – it seems worth it. It doesn't for my dad.

THERAPIST: Oh, I see.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: I see, yeah.

CLIENT: It's just the more I learn – the more I – I – I think about this stuff, the more I just seem to find it hard to – why like my dad deserves any kind of respect or something.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: But respecting him as if he deserved all of the respect in the world is like the way I've built a relationship with him.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: So the two just don't – you know? [00:47:02]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: And it even like makes me – it makes me – it makes it more hard to think about my mom even, you know, with things that just are going on between me and my dad, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like I feel like I'm disrespecting my mom when I respect my dad, almost.

THERAPIST: You do?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Yeah. Because if I had a really good friend like Eric, if someone else that I knew like did something horrible to Eric, I would stand behind Eric, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: It's just like that simple –

THERAPIST: I see, yeah.

CLIENT: – like school yard way things play out, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I feel like I'm betraying my mom even by like answering my dad's phone calls or something.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Even though I know that in a way I kind of do it – or I think I did even to not make things more tough for her –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – or something. But –

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: – I don't know.

THERAPIST: You don't know what?

CLIENT: I don't know what all that means. It just – I feel like that's just a lot of stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't know. It just makes me sad.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I just don't like that – I don't know. I just don't like to think about it.

THERAPIST: What was that?

CLIENT: I just don't like to think about it. [00:48:58]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Well – yeah. You know, I guess – it begs the question of, I guess to me, at least, of what does it mean to you to get sad in here, you know, and be sad (inaudible)?

CLIENT: I don't know. Sometimes when I talk to people, they like – half-jokingly, they'll be like, you know, ‘Did you like – have a breakthrough at therapy today and start crying or something?' And I remember thinking to myself, ‘Nah, I've never felt anything remotely close to that.' But sometimes for a moment I wonder like I may end up doing something wrong, but – see, I've never come anywhere – you know, I felt a little close to it now maybe, but I don't – I've never felt like that here.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Well, the whole – the whole kind of question of can you be – what does it mean for – for someone to be sad in the presence of somebody else? It's kind of a big question for you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, I was just thinking, you know, like what – what it's like for you – for you to see your – you know, to be in contact with a sadness about your mother, for her to see it in you, for you to see it sadness in her, it's a major question. How do two people be with one another in that?

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: It's a pretty big question.

CLIENT: I don't know, I – I've never even like cried about it myself or anything, really.

THERAPIST: No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see. Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: I don't find it particularly hard –

THERAPIST: (coughs)

CLIENT: – to be around someone else. [00:50:52]

THERAPIST: Ok.

CLIENT: I mean, it just – you know, if I was alone on a mountain, it wouldn't feel much different –

THERAPIST: It wouldn't feel much different, yeah. Yeah, I see.

CLIENT: Not that I – not that you seem like you're not here or something, but –

THERAPIST: No, no. I see what you're saying.

CLIENT: But –

THERAPIST: No, but it's something – I mean, you're getting that it's not just an interpersonal thing or maybe doesn't even feel like it's the – it matters, the interpersonal sense (inaudible) –

CLIENT: (inaudible) hiding – it makes me feel like I'm – you know what I mean? That I didn't know it was in my pocket or something, and I'm not letting someone see –

THERAPIST: Yeah, right. Right. It's something that you – you – yeah. You – you don't see or it's not easy for you to see until maybe you get close to it now in some way.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I don't know, it's – (pause).

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Yeah. (pause) Yeah, I had a dream about my dog last night, growing up.

THERAPIST: Your dog?

CLIENT: Yeah, a dog named Buddy. And I hadn't thought about Buddy in a really long time. Buddy died on Halloween in 7th grade. I grew up with him, he was there my whole life. And I was just thinking about it this morning, and I was like, ‘Yeah, it's weird. I don't really think about Buddy a lot.' But Buddy is – was only ever like when mom and dad were around.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And I remember just thinking to myself – I always use that phrase in here, about like my parents didn't like go to court over the dog. [00:52:50]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: You know? Like one of my friends –

THERAPIST: One of your friends did.

CLIENT: – his parents did. And he – yeah, I just thought to myself this morning, like – you know, ‘Buddy did us a favor by dying before they could have,' or something.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah. What kind of dog?

CLIENT: He was a little mutt. He was a good dog.

THERAPIST: Yeah. All right.

CLIENT: See you on Thursday?

THERAPIST: Thursday, yes. Hey listen I – I'm wondering – we talked about next – next Monday, I'm not going to be in.

CLIENT: Yeah, I was going to ask you – you're – you're not?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Ok.

THERAPIST: I didn't bring that up?

CLIENT: Maybe you did. I haven't been bringing my bag lately, because I've been –

THERAPIST: (coughs)

CLIENT: – coming from work, so I haven't been writing the stuff down. But I actually – it – it – if it is, it isn't throwing anything off.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's – it's because of Patriot's Day and the marathon and everything –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – that it's just – I take that day off.

CLIENT: No, that's probably good. [00:53:53]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That can be – transportation can be tough that day.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So 3:30 Thursday?

THERAPIST: 3:30 Thursday.

CLIENT: Yeah, we can switch that up, and then nothing the next Monday?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: All right. Thank you.

END TRANSCRIPT