TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: I'm just going to make sure it's on and going. Yeah.

CLIENT: You want me to try and do mine too or do you just think it'll do it?

THERAPIST: Yeah. I'll just check on it maybe in a couple minutes if I remember.

CLIENT: Yeah, for sure.

THERAPIST: But thanks.

CLIENT: No problem.

THERAPIST: I think I might have figured it out. I think it's when I turned the airport onto from off, it's from on to off, from off to on... You know that airport function?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Which means it doesn't receive any texts or calls or anything.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So when I do that, if I started the recording and I do that, I think it switches it off. I think that's what's going on.

CLIENT: Oh, if you do it afterwards?

THERAPIST: If I do it afterwards, it cuts it off so I have to keep checking on it.

(PAUSE) [00:00:57]

CLIENT: So yesterday and today, I told the people that I wasn't going to be coming back...

THERAPIST: Oh yeah.

CLIENT: ...and that I wasn't going to law school and that I wouldn't be returning in the fall without a reason which was like... You know, it's a pretty big thing.

THERAPIST: We were talking about it.

CLIENT: Yeah, we never talk about it afterwards.

THERAPIST: I know. It's kind of interesting.

CLIENT: Yeah. I was kind of thinking about that when I was coming here.

THERAPIST: What?

CLIENT: I thought about it a lot before, before doing it. You know?

THERAPIST: You did?

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't the reason I didn't speak about it, not because it wasn't on my mind. It was definitely on my mind quite a bit.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I (inaudible at 00:01:49) (PAUSE) and I think ultimately I got to a point where I was...

(PAUSE) [00:02:00]

Well, I guess I spoke with her about it for a day when it first sort of presented itself but then afterwards I sort of stopped talking to people about it. I think probably one of the reasons I stopped talking about it here was because whenever I bring it up with someone, either Harold or Lily, they both would be, they both would be very supportive. They both would be, "You don't have anything to worry about. You don't have anything to be concerned about. You don't have anything to be anxious about." You know? I mean, I would tell them about the things I was concerned might happen or would make them upset or something. They weren't dismissive. They were like, "Yeah. That's something you need to think about." You know? Like that's just... They were basically just so far off into what you should expect to happen that I think I kind of wanted to stop talking about it and getting that reaction. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:02:59]

CLIENT: In a way, that's helpful but, in a way, that's not really, it doesn't really do much to talk about. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I suppose I actually really did stop talking about it. (PAUSE) You know, at least with, at least significantly with respect to how much still thinking about it I did. You know? It was definitely on my mind a lot over the last week and a half and I sent in the form sort of like form wise and then I accepted the admission offer last week. I kind of said to myself, "Wait until I do that and then I'll tell them," even though I could have told them... You know, I knew, you know, without a doubt that I was going to be going a while before that. But I did and I went in on... I was going to tell them last week. Right? But I didn't go in the office once last week.

THERAPIST: Oh. [00:03:57]

CLIENT: Our school was closed the last two days that I was going to go in...

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: ...and do all this stuff. I told Mitchell (ph), the guy that I work with, my sort of supervisor last night and then I told my boss, the head of the union, today and, you know, I was just telling Harold about this. They reacted, you know, not only supportive and, you know, just being congratulatory... You know, know only did they just act, react really well to it but literally said like the words that Harold and Lilas said (inaudible at 00:04:49) "We're so happy for you and of course you're going to want to do that. You'd be crazy not to take that offer, you know, and then said, turn it down for a 20 hour a week job." [00:05:03]

Like, literally, like verbatim, they, both of them said exactly those words.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I was terrified to do it. You know? It had been a while since we had spoken about it. I was really, really scared.

THERAPIST: I understand. That was going to be the topic of conversation.

(CROSSTALK)

CLIENT: I was really, I was really concerned about what I would... I guess I don't even really know what I thought was going to happen but I was just really concerned about it. You know? I had some... I actually had very like doomsday scenarios playing in my head.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:06:01]

CLIENT: And I had really psyched myself up for it, you know, for like months and then right after it was just... (PAUSE) I don't know. It was just really bizarre when they just didn't react that way.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It was really weird.

THERAPIST: What did you, what did you... Like what were you... How did you react to their reaction?

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: I don't know. It's strange because they... Like literally, if... Before I did this when I was like worrying about this over the last month, if during that time they said to me, like, "I understand your worry about these things, about they way they might react or about what they might think," but if you said to me, like, "Paint a picture of what the most ideal scenario would be for how they could react," like it would have been that. [00:07:09]

You know what I mean? Like... I'm not even exaggerating. Like they couldn't have responded in a way that made me feel better. You know what I mean? They touched on the very points that... Like Mitchell said to me, "Don't... I just want you to know there aren't any hard feelings or anything about you doing this. Like even with personally, not even professionally or anything," which like I was so worried about that. (PAUSE) I don't know. Like some... I don't know. (PAUSE) What do you do... There's certain experiences that you have when you go through them here, sort of in like a haze, sort of like almost in a pipeline or adrenaline thing, almost like you don't experience it. You know what I mean? [00:08:03]

Like I didn't actually start to reflect on it and realize how well they reacted until afterwards. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like I was really prepared for like something really traumatic or something. You know?

THERAPIST: Kind of steeling yourself?

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't even know.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: It really was just so odd now. I feel so relaxed. I mean, I told Mitchell last night and I told Emma (ph) today and to be on the other side of that, like is so... (PAUSE) I don't know. It's just bizarre. Before, that I couldn't even think about what law school would be like. [00:08:55]

Seriously, like feeling guilty. I mean, I couldn't even do my financial aid stuff and imagine what I'm going to need every single month moneywise without feeling guilty. You know what I mean? I haven't even been telling people because I didn't want it to get back to them. Like, one of the things... It's funny. One of the things that I felt after I did it was that I could go home and put my status on Facebook, like, "I'm going to law school." You know what I mean? In a way, I actually do feel like now I'm actually going to law school. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: It's just bizarre. I mean, I feel really weird from thinking about. I feel really weird thinking about the discrepancy between what I seemed to not be able to stop anticipating and what actually happened. [00:10:05]

When everybody else seemed to just be able to understand was as easy as the most easy thing in the world. You know what I mean? But that I seemed to be so far in, you know, left field or something. It makes me feel, makes me feel crazy.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: It makes me feel looney or something. It makes me feel silly. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean, especially when I... Yeah, I mean, imagine part of like you telling Laney (ph) about this and them saying, you know, "It's going to work out this way," to keep talking about it would be like kind of... (PAUSE) It's almost like you wanted them to see something, the deeper side of it that seemed to you maybe a little crazy about it, like a little bit, a little more off or something like that, quote, unquote and then it was frustrating that they wouldn't kind of go there with you. [00:11:15]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah. I feel crazy relatively speaking. I feel crazy with respect like, you know, in the sense that there was this thing that everybody else seemed to understand.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? And that just seemed so ambiguous. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I can understand, I can understand why... It's not illogical to me that they reacted the way that they did.

THERAPIST: No. Right. Yeah.

CLIENT: But I think it makes all the sense in the world. I can make all the sense in the world of how they could have reacted very differently too. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And that's the, that's the thing. You know?

(PAUSE) [00:12:00]

CLIENT: And if they did react the way that I was expecting, I don't think that I would have been mad at them. Like, you know, I don't know. Like I feel like they, there was grounds there for that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah and I think it speaks to like a certain kind of... I think it must link up in some way to a certain reality you've experienced before.

CLIENT: Right. I mean, that's what Lauren (ph) said. You know, she was like... Yeah, she was speaking sort of psychoanalytically (ph) I suppose and she was saying like... She was like, "I suspect that you've sort of learned this response or something," or... Yeah. I mean, it's like a perfect... Like you said, "You only feel that which has already happened," or something. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Exactly.

CLIENT: And I think about that and I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it relates to some feelings you have about doing something for yourself that can feel, you can feel really bad about it that you're leaving other people behind. Other people are going to be affected by it. [00:13:15]

I mean, all those things are true in the sense of they've got to find somebody else. They're going to have to be... They're in a position... I mean, there's things you're, that are real that you're drawing from and I think your impact on those events just elicited a lot of guilt. It seemed to me what you were saying when we've talked about it before is how much guilt you're, that I'm having to... That that component was so strong that I'm having to really kind of eclipse any other feelings that they might have had is so (inaudible at 00:14:01) that you were expecting, that that would be the figural kind of reaction that they would have, the essential reaction to have was that they'd feel some pain and disappointment or something around those lines. [00:14:15]

CLIENT: Mm hmm.

THERAPIST: Of you leaving and leaving them holding back or something like that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, maybe you feel differently.

CLIENT: No, yeah. I mean, yeah. No, completely. You know, I'm just thinking about it like... I don't know. I'm just thinking it seems I can just think of parallels just from what we've been talking about like... (PAUSE) Like, the way that I (inaudible at 00:14:51) was very much like, wasn't so much me leaving them. Like, let's put it this way, let's say, I don't know, something happened, like my mom, something happened and I had to move in with my mom and take care of her and I couldn't be there anymore, I wouldn't (inaudible at 00:15:11) You know what I mean? [00:15:11]

THERAPIST: Oh. That way would have had had to leave.

CLIENT: Well, the... You know, it almost wasn't me leaving them I was sort of seeing as a questionable decision but it was there's... Yeah. There's this thing that would be good for me and then there's what's good for the office and I had a choice. I could choose. You know what I mean? I didn't have to go. You know what I mean? But I decided to. I made that decision. It wasn't made for me by circumstance. It wasn't... You know what I mean? That was what I was uncomfortable with and that's what I felt there was an opening for me to be criticized.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:16:05]

CLIENT: If I said, "Oh, my mom's sick. I have to move in with her and I can't be here..." I literally could do... If they got mad at me, I would feel comfortable saying that that's a really horrible reaction from them. You know what I mean? Which is like the farthest thing away from what I would have felt like I could have done in this situation. You know what I mean? And I literally, I literally had to pull myself away from coming to the conclusion, like, maybe I'll just stay because that would just keep things done. Things are good. You know what I mean? (PAUSE) I guess the power I'm seeing is this like preservative, like, I don't know, like we talked about with my parents. You know? [00:17:01]

(PAUSE)

This concern for like preserving the dynamic and really overvaluing what's at stake for other people and...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...I'm having a really hard time figuring out how I can not be just nasty if I literally just thought about something what would be good for me and looked at it that way. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: The ability to rock the boat a little bit for something that I've wanted...

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: ...and understanding that is something that could be enough of a justification for something. You know what I mean? And as opposed to...

(PAUSE) [00:18:09]

CLIENT: Yeah. I think I sort of explained something like this to you a while ago I think. Like, given that dynamic where I was sort of, it was my decision to like leave, like there was like a vulnerability in that that I wouldn't have felt if it was something like I have to move home because just the circumstance. But me saying, "I made this decision because I think this is good for me," like that opens up this vulnerability where if they go mad at me, it would have been wrong because they got mad at me. You know what I mean? It wouldn't have been necessary because like it was really all that would have mattered. You know? [00:18:57]

It ultimately wouldn't have been material if...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...their reasons were...

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: That's sort of where it follows from. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: And... I don't know. That just seems to resonate with the, when I think about things sometimes.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? I guess this just felt like such a departure from that. I felt like... I don't know. I guess I feel more comfortable when I think about things along those lines, in a more like sacrificial... I feel better when I'm doing stuff like that. I feel like I'm positioning myself in a more virtuous way or something.

THERAPIST: Yes. Exactly.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, you know, based upon what... I mean, to me, the link between this situation and what we've been talking about with your parents is that, that, you know, I think in some way, you're, you're, you're, your understanding of what went on between your mom and you dad was that your dad left for his own reasons, to, for his own purposes. [00:20:15]

It wrecked your mother's life and almost not just because of the... (LAUGHTER) Not just because of the consequences of being alone but also that he left for himself and it's almost like in response to seeing all that, it was also that there was like there was a way of you wanting to be corrective to that, feeling the need to be a corrective at some point, not to be the guy who does that, who inflicts that kind of thing.

(PAUSE) [00:23:00]

CLIENT: I mean, it's an interesting formulation. Right? I think... This is getting at something I think I asked you about a while ago but I don't know if I made it as articulate or clearly. (PAUSE) It's almost as if I'm over intellectualizing it or something like with that quote that you said. Right? I feel like that's such a helpful sort of crutch to lean on at times, when trying to think of something, I think of that quote. You know?

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Because that's kind of what you're saying. Right? Like the fear when something like that happening and fearing that reality actualizing itself again...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...of this person inflicting this pain. You know what I mean? [00:21:59]

The thing I found so interesting about that is the reason my mind doesn't ever go there is because like that would suggest that I'm scared of like not... I'm not scared of doing something again that I've done or something. Like I'm scared of like creating a situation that like I was a part of that someone else created.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I'm scared that I'm going to do like what I saw my dad do.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hmm. (PAUSE) Yeah and I was thinking (inaudible at 00:22:47) reality could happen in fantasy, unconscious fantasy.

(PAUSE) [00:23:00]

CLIENT: Yeah.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I mean, not to make it overly cerebral either by saying that.

CLIENT: No, no, no. I mean, I wasn't really harboring that but... (PAUSE) I don't know. I just... Every time I think about it, it almost gets to a point where it's like too much to think about this stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah? Yeah. Yeah, no. That's exactly right. Yes, yes.

CLIENT: Like (inaudible at 00:23:57) I'll say it. I said it a couple of appointments ago. Like...

(PAUSE) [00:24:00]

CLIENT: I feel like I can't keep living my life according to the terms that made me experience me getting into law school the way that I did. I got into law school and it had a like neurotic effect on my well being. You know what I mean? This is the first time since I got into law school that I haven't just felt way, way, way more anxious and guilty and bad about myself then when I am before. (PAUSE) I just... (PAUSE) Yeah, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:24:51]

CLIENT: And I feel like I got through it and it's like cool, I'm glad but I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean, I almost feel like this is some, this might be a (inaudible at 00:25:09) I'll say it just because I'm thinking it. Like it seems relevant but I was thinking it's like another way of becoming your father. You know? Like the length of law school and what that means. Not only are you going, leaving but you're leaving to become a lawyer and the relevance of all that. I mean, in a way, I mean, it's like, it's... And maybe this is too pat a formulation but it's like, it's like reenacting something that already happened and like you're going to pursue something for yourself away from this situation that'll better yourself, that'll... And yet, are you leaving in the fantasy of, "I'm leaving them behind and what does this mean? What does this mean to them?" And... [00:26:01]

CLIENT: But that's what's funny about it though is that, that's, those are my like fantasies that I was scared of.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:26:15) that's not the case.

THERAPIST: No, that's not the case.

CLIENT: They're genuinely going to be cool.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Exactly.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: My little 20 hour a week administrator job, they're going to fill it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And they're not going to sort of live in the destructive wake of this decision like the way me and my mom has when my dad is gone. So in a way I almost have evidence that I'm not doing that almost. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Maybe I was worried that that's what I was doing but now I just have evidence to the contrary. (PAUSE) But I guess what I'm saying is that it's just like a little battle in like a larger war that I just have no further like, you know, progress in or something. [00:27:09]

THERAPIST: I see. Yeah. Like it can happen again and you know you'd be right back in that...

CLIENT: It is. I know it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, it's just the perpetual fear of just being terrified that I'm doing something really disruptive to people, people that I care about. You know? Which just crops up in so many different ways.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:27:53]

CLIENT: I think, in that sense it's just easy to see how that even plays out with my parents too, that that's still the guiding principle in how I engage with them. You know? (PAUSE) You know, I can see it from that. I guess I put it in those words. I can see like me being, learning a pattern of thought that I can see as an extension of other things, as an extension of like experiences I had growing up. You know? Because I think that's what I've explained to you here. That's...

(PAUSE) [00:29:00]

CLIENT: That's really all I've thought about anything with my parents and stuff in a lot of ways. Not wanting to, you know, fan flames or not wanting to, you know, not wanting to be a source of sadness or something for people. You know? Not wanting to... (PAUSE) Yeah and just sort of always seeing myself as a reflective product of what I'm getting out of from people or something. You know, just feedback or... I don't know. Just this like inability to think of like myself being able to feel confident about... [00:30:29]

I mean, me being able to judge something and determine like right and wrong outside of like what's going to maybe make people mad or something. You know? Not what's going to be, I don't know, imagine hurtfulness as like an outcome of things that I'm doing probably isn't even appropriate all the time or something. [00:30:59]

THERAPIST: Well, what I'm sensing that there's, that the roots of this are in the experience of feeling like doing something that feels really for yourself, that is enjoyable, that is kind of, that involves kind of, that involves somehow affect on another person is so tied... Having to do something that includes somebody else losing something is really experienced as very ruinous in some way. It's filled with like badness. It's filled with like a sense of destructiveness or something. It's really like, it's kind of fused with that sense. It's fused with it. [00:32:01]

It's not like it can be separated out or... It's almost like it's just embedded in the experience of doing something like this. You can't see it as anything... I mean, it's almost impossible to still, to still the two things so they come apart and there's this feeling of, "I'm doing something here for myself that means somebody else is going to be affected and it's going to mean they're going to have to do something." It's filled with a real sense of your own kind of like something bad you're up to or selfish or... I don't know.

CLIENT: Mm hmm. (PAUSE) No. It's... Yeah. There's a strange kind of nexus between... [00:33:01]

I told you like sometimes like when something goes well, when I have like a good experience, like today, like when I was leaving work, like just let me explain it to you. Like the ideal utopian scenario played out with this thing that I was really worried about. You know? Literally, if you had asked me before I told Mitchell and Emma about this, what the best possible outcome had been, like that happened and I left and I was feeling kind of good for a little bit. You know? I was walking and I kind of just started to relax and then I just started to feel really anxious and I started doing stuff that I do when I get really anxious.

THERAPIST: What did you do? [00:33:57]

CLIENT: Thinking look behind me, like knocking people over when I'm walking or something. I don't know. I get this, I don't know, this like sobering like aura or something. Like...

THERAPIST: Mm hmm.

CLIENT: Like something... I don't know. It just sort of like zaps that like good relaxing feeling. You know what I mean? It happens all the time, stuff like that. Something goes well. I start to feel really anxious about random innocuous things. You know?

(PAUSE) [00:35:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I mentioned that in the past. You know? I feel... I guess I just feel like I'm, I've left this weird, hard to identify sort of category of like doing what I'm supposed to be doing or something. I don't know how else to explain it. You know? Not... (PAUSE) I'm wrapped up in myself or something, being selfish. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Can you say more? [00:35:53]

CLIENT: Not being a good kid or something. I'm... (PAUSE) I've... You know? In relaxing, I have stopped doing things that will prevent bad things from happening and I'm thinking there must be happening all around me. I've stopped doing the things... If you don't want bad things to happen. You know? You put your sensors away? You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe you've bumped people. Maybe you've left people in your way that you've bumped and hurt.

CLIENT: Mm hmm. So then I say I'm just going to give myself to that and just... Because that's the right thing to do. That's what I should do. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Mmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: I don't know. It's... It's always just things like, you know, like compulsions. You know what I mean. Just weird little checkings and stuff like that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:37:03]

CLIENT: Those are always the places that it kind of picks up. You know? Yeah. I don't know. (PAUSE) I feel like I've stopped engaging this pattern of behavior. It's just the right thing to be doing. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. The ones that kind of can be safe in that category good (inaudible at 00:37:51) disruptiveness or something like that. [00:37:57]

CLIENT: Because I left them and I'm like, "I'm not... I'm not, you know the disruptive force that I thought I was." I don't know. (PAUSE) I don't know. (PAUSE) You know, it's like I just feel like I don't even... [00:39:05]

Like, at that moment, when I was telling them about it, like there was like a minute in between when I... I guess this would be an answer to your question like, "What would it feel like as I was like experiencing the witnessing of their reaction." Like I felt like there was even if it was just half a second in between when I said it to them and when I started to react. You know what I mean? Like when I said, "I'm leaving because I'm going to law school," and before I could even pick it up in body language, before they said anything, there was this moment where like I was like yet to be like determined, like they, they were like making me at that moment. You know what I mean? [00:40:01]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like I was going to be anything with what they came back with.

THERAPIST: They were going to (inaudible at 00:40:05)

CLIENT: Yeah. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: They were going to define, define what it meant.

CLIENT: Because think about it this way. Let's say that even if I could say that I... Let's say that I could convince myself that I was justified in leaving, which I think I was if I look at it like from some abstract logical level (inaudible at 00:40:31) leave and go to law school. But it could still make all the sense in the world and I could still be horribly (ph) distraught at them if they reacted a different way and it would have been completely irrelevant if it logically made sense. It wouldn't have any impact on me being destructive. They're two completely different things.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:40:53]

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hmm.

CLIENT: And it was that category that was just like completely like out of my control...

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: ...and all I could do was react to it. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, it also leads you to feel kind of like, "Alright. What if they don't?" There is the chance of people not, you know, any number of ways, feel jilted, feel bummed out, hurt, can't win.

CLIENT: Yeah. But it was that vulnerability. You know what I mean? That I feel like that's going to be there again.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Right.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: But it's that vulnerability that I feel like other people don't find themselves so sort of indebted to. They don't seem to think about it quite as much sometimes.

(PAUSE) [00:42:00]

CLIENT: But they way I put it to you makes a lot of sense to me. (PAUSE) Just didn't... It just... There was no room for it in the conversation, like, with people like, like with Laney or something or... It was just such a crazy idea or something.

THERAPIST: Crazy. Yeah.

CLIENT: Does that make sense what I'm saying to you?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And like that's like right and wrong is in like the category of like the abstract logical doesn't make sense. Like that's where they actually...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...means something. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It doesn't even matter the... I think it was right that my dad left my mom. I don't think they should have stayed together. I think that would have been worse. You know what I mean? But it was still destructive. You know what I mean? I don't think they should have stayed together. I think it would have made it worse for me. [00:42:59]

THERAPIST: Yeah. In a way, is it... You mother maybe had a role in making it destructive. She created the destruction.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah. She provided that response...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, she, yeah, she made my dad destructive. She made his acts destructive, yeah, in that sense. (PAUSE) So I guess what I feel like is what I... I think these two categories and kind of helpful for me think about. Like the logical category... I mean, I tend to just, I feel like (inaudible at 00:43:57) one sixteenth of a second but has so low bearing on how I decide things. [00:44:03]

Like my concern is like the, that destructive thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: Which I feel like I'm some level, at least how I spend here, I understand that it makes sense how it wouldn't be something that I can like determine for myself.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's not the nature. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: It's not the nature.

CLIENT: I don't know. (PAUSE) I feel like I'm rambling.

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Huh. What did you... Did you just start to feel that?

CLIENT: I don't know. I guess. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Anything that I did that made you sort of... Anything that happened? [00:44:59]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: I don't know. (PAUSE) Does it make sense what I'm saying here? Like does that make sense to you?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Because one of the things that makes me feel even crazier is the fact that...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...it makes all the sense in the world to me, is that it is not crazy at all to me. It seems like... It makes so much sense to me, I don't understand how you could, it makes it almost hard for me to not, imagine other possibilities outside or something. You know what I mean? Like it seems right. It seems moral. It seems respectful. It seems...

THERAPIST: Uh huh. Right. [00:46:05]

CLIENT: ...altruistic. I mean, I don't know. It's...

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: I wish it seemed crazy when I broke it down.

THERAPIST: Yeah. No. I mean, I think, again, it gets back, in some way, in which you... It was the kind of the rules in which you lived in, I don't know, the life you lived and you still live in.

CLIENT: Mm hmm. (PAUSE) Mm hmm. (inaudible at 00:46:51)

THERAPIST: Alright. Well, I'll see you Monday.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, what did you say?

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:46:57) I almost didn't even, I almost thought I wouldn't even bring up that whole thing.

THERAPIST: For real?

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:47:03]

THERAPIST: Huh. (inaudible at 00:47:11) You were kind of concerned about...

CLIENT: I didn't want to give it more room in my life.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: I wanted to be done with it.

THERAPIST: That's good you did. It's good you did.

CLIENT: Well, I will see you on Monday then.

THERAPIST: Monday. Thank you.

END TRANSCRIPT