TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: I realized I got here later than I thought. Can you stay a little bit?

CLIENT: Yeah. Totally, totally. (PAUSE) How are you?

THERAPIST: I'm well. Thanks. Yeah. (PAUSE) I'm tired. I'm really tired this morning.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I'm really tired this morning.

CLIENT: I got into... All I could think about was I got into an argument with my dad yesterday. I've just been like stuck in it since it happened. It was just regarding some stuff that we were doing like through work together. He just... There was something that he wanted to get done. But he was just being incredibly unclear about how he wanted it done and everything. [00:01:03]

I was just getting really really frustrated because it kind of kept getting pushed off and off because I wasn't able to get it done just because he had been very sort of unclear, bouncing back and forth about what he wanted and it really kind of ate into my weekend and I wasn't able to see Abe like I wanted to. I had to try and get this done and we ended up just getting really cross with each other on the phone and I was just so fed up. I got so fed up with him and so angry yesterday. All day yesterday I was just in this like, this haze where it was all I could sort of think about and I just, I don't want to talk to him. I don't want anything to do with him. I was so... I don't know. It was really bizarre yesterday. [00:01:57]

I didn't want to talk about it or anything but I was just like livid. I was shaking. I was so incredibly mad about it. Like all I want to do today is find somewhere to work and just like not have to deal with him, not have to talk to him.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It sure evoked a lot in you.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was like shaking on the phone with him. I was like uncontrollably...

THERAPIST: Your body was really...

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. It was wild. It was crazy. I haven't felt that like electrified with sort of frustration and feeling like that a long time. But...

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: It almost made you feel like the action was a lot of work. It's just too, it's just too much or something. [00:03:03]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I mean, a little... Yeah. It definitely made me feel mad. It definitely made me feel like I just want to just get away from, get away from, not have to kind of go back to him, you know, for work purposes. I'd just really like to find something else to do. You know, I'd like to... Yeah. I'd like to find something else for the time between now and when I start law school but it's difficult because it's going to mean trying to find something for like a couple months. I just feel kind of trapped and at a loss at this point. You know? [00:03:57]

Because I need that money but I don't want to have to maintain this, this dynamic with him forward until them. It makes me curious as to why I wouldn't have sort of seen this as potential. You know what I mean? Why is it that I'm even finding myself in this situation which is really frustrating. (PAUSE) But... In a weird way, I feel like I'm almost glad that I have this. Like I'm really frustrated with my dad about how the last couple of days went, just about how like basic communication between us was just really strange. It was just really frustrating in that sense. [00:04:57]

But in a way I feel like I'm almost like glad in some sort of moot sense that we've had this interaction. I got mad at him on the phone. You know? I got angry at him and he ended up calling me back and apologizing almost in a way that's sort of like spread the blame but acknowledge that, you know, I was feeling really angry at him and stuff. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mmm.

CLIENT: Which was really interesting.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Yeah. I'll say. That's interesting (inaudible at 00:05:47)

CLIENT: Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:05:59]

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. The whole thing was... It was just... I was just so upset yesterday. I was so rattled by this. I just didn't want to. I just couldn't even do anything. It was just sort of completely taking over everything I was able to do. (PAUSE) Yeah. I don't know. I just don't know why I ended up doing this with him. I don't know why I started working with him. I don't know why I did that. It just seems like a silly thing for me to have done at the time. I just think back to like the conversation I had with Jill (ph). You know, she said it seemed odd that I would do that. [00:07:03]

It seemed against the current of everything that I had been talking to her about. You know? Just how difficult it is for me to spend time with him, to talk to him, to interact with him. But then I seem to kind of gravitate toward this opportunity to work with him, basically do all those kind of things, you know, spend more time with him, interact with him. You know? That seems very obvious to me now, like, after the experience of yesterday, but it's just not something I thought about at the time. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: It feels odd. It makes me feel silly. It makes me feel... I don't know. It makes me feel stupid that I'm obviously in the situation now or something. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. For what it's worth, I kind of, I have kind of been seeing it as, as some way reflecting, you know, you working with your dad seemed like an opportunity for you to revisit certain things with him in real life, in the present, in view. [00:08:21]

And like some of the... You working with him has, I think, has kind of... I think in some way facilitated a kind of opening up in you of what, almost a revisitation of a dynamic that's been there but almost like bringing it more to the foreground in some way. It really has done that and I kind of have wondered if there wasn't something about that to you, about a way to kind of re engage with this, with this dynamic that exists, a very, very poor and deep one that we've been talking about in this, we've kind of really examined and talked about, almost like it's... You working with him has really, especially with this incident has even further along, you're kind of, you know, kind of like revisiting on Earth, if you will, something important between you two and how you feel with him and...

CLIENT: Yeah. I can see that. I can see that. [00:10:01]

You know, like... Because it was frustrating yesterday. But I'm... I think I was going to say this because I feel like, in a way, I'm sort of glad the way that I ended up reacting to it at least to him sort of expressing my frustration with him, being a little more vocal about some of that stuff, more vocal than I would have been in the past or something and while right now I want to, I'd like to try to find a way out of it, it feels quite different than, I guess, any lingering feelings of resentment from different sort of experiences. You know what I mean? [00:10:59]

Like it feels like a different sort of... (PAUSE) I remember reading Freud and talking about sort of... You know... I think it was actually (inaudible at 00:11:29) we talked about, like the baby who was kind of constantly throwing the thing out of the crib, sort of like recreate something to try to like, to sort of like experience some sort of mastery over something that like in the past you felt like you didn't or something. I mean, that's just something that came to my mind.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yes.

CLIENT: Because, in a way, sort of leaving this I feel like... I don't know. I feel more like comfortable with the feelings of frustration and anger. [00:12:05]

Like I feel like I have more to...

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: I don't know. I can stand up or something. I can sleep better with them or something even though they're still very frustrating or something. I feel like they... I don't know. It feels more healthy or something, less paralyzing. Do you know what I mean? I don't know. Does that make sense to you what I'm saying.

THERAPIST: It does. Yeah, yeah. It does. I think, you know, I'm taken by your word it was feeling like electric or something. Because I think one way that I feel like you were describing the quality of what it was like to be with you and your dad, together with your dad was almost like a kind of, a real lack of electric, almost like you were under, as you were sort of saying, under water and holding your breath and... [00:13:07]

I think, you know, this kind of interaction... What you feel following this interaction is very different, very alive.

CLIENT: Yeah. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's opposed to something that was, that felt a lot more kind of numb or dampened or...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...demobilized or something.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean, I, I just, I feel... Yeah, well, I, I guess in a way I sort of like it. I feel more (inaudible at 00:13:47) I feel really pissed about it. I don't know. That seems simple but it feels like incredibly different in a weird way. Like something I can just do, just leaves me feeling very different, I guess.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? [00:14:01]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. Very much so in that sense. In a way, it's sort of, it's sort of... (PAUSE) ...kind of intoxicating even.

THERAPIST: Mmm.

CLIENT: I don't know. It does feel very different. It feels very different in that sense... (PAUSE) ...very much so. But... (PAUSE) Yeah. I don't know. [00:14:59]

I mean, it also has a feeling though of me feeling... (PAUSE) ...feeling kind of dumb, feeling kind of stupid that I'm in this situation again and that I've brought myself back into this situation. It feels sort of... On the one hand, I guess, what I was just explaining to you. It feels kind of good. Like it feels, feels kind of new. It feels kind of different and exciting perhaps in that sense. But, on the other hand, it feels sort of repetitive and not very encouraging in that sense, sort of a... [00:16:05]

Yeah. A repetitive, I'm back again.

THERAPIST: I'm back.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:16:11)

THERAPIST: I see. It's a step backwards or something. It's more about... Yeah.

CLIENT: I'm back in this sort of trapped space with him where I feel, I feel like I have to temper my feelings towards him for more sort of immediate practical demands. You know?

THERAPIST: Oh, oh.

CLIENT: And there's this sort of sacrifice between like I've got to kind of keep things within certain bounds but I'd rather not or something. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:17:01]

CLIENT: I mean, not that's like, I need, you know, I can't not get paid by him at this point.

THERAPIST: Yeah. You're relying on him for...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...some...

CLIENT: I'm dependent.

THERAPIST: Relying on the job for the money.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's true.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And that feels very much like... I don't want to be, find myself back here. You know? And that's like really... That's like the complete opposite of that feeling sort of like anger that I feel like I can actually do something with. You know what I mean? I feel like those are the two poles here. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah and in fact it's almost, it seems to me like the two poles are... Well, they almost sit, they're separate because they can't come together.

CLIENT: Yeah. It won't... Yeah. They're very mutually exclusive. Yeah. But this place feels very familiar and all the more frustrating for that reason. You know what I mean? [00:18:03]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: And it feels like what we've spoken about, you know, in the past. It's, it feels sort of infantile. It feels like I'm young again. It feels like... It sort of invokes these feelings I associate with times past and stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Oh yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Like these forces of like, you know, my dad or my parents kind of pushed back into the immediate fore. You know what I mean? Like when I was living at home or something. And it feels very sort of, very sort of constricted. You know? [00:19:03]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think in some way you feel like you have to kind of constrict yourself, restrict yourself kind of, not in a, not so to say it's even like a kind of full intentional way. But it's almost like a kind of restriction takes over you, almost a kind of like... I was thinking in a way to right the ship in a way that feels familiar at least.

CLIENT: Mmm.

THERAPIST: When you have this kind of like a field of, "I've had this blow up with my dad. How do we get back on course?" You have to kind of constrict yourself and it's got to feel like you're... And that familiar role as a kid kind of being cognizant or aware of what you're doing and being careful. I don't know. Does that make sense? [00:20:09]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Just reclusing (ph) or something. Yeah. I don't know. (PAUSE) I don't know. Just like rolling over on my back or something. I don't know. It's just a very unpleasant feeling. There's not a lot I feel like I can do with it.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess I'd like to just try to find a way to get out of it. You know? I just feel like I was able to kind of get some other work. You know? [00:20:59]

I feel like that would be a pretty significant job at alleviating that. I guess it's more than I could say than in the past about getting rid of that feeling. You know? I mean, I feel like if I imagine what that would feel like, like if I got another job today, I feel like a lot of that pressure would just immediately start to dissipate and I actually wouldn't be that concerned about it and I would feel better. You know?

(PAUSE) [00:21:53]

CLIENT: I mean, I would feel different. Right? I would feel like I was then sort of... (PAUSE) ...getting rid of it. I mean, if I did that, it would feel very different on the other end of it than I guess other lingering resentment or something that I maybe felt towards my dad in other instances. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: Maybe, yeah, maybe that's... Maybe there's something to it. Maybe, you know, there is a re engaging with it to resettle terms or something, to reopen some level of intimacy between me and my dad such that I can close it on different terms or something. [00:22:55]

THERAPIST: Well, yeah, and you've been getting more in contact in a very alive way, your feelings. like even in your body. Even your body came alive... (SIGH) ...in that interaction with him and you're shaking, you're feeling electric.

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) Yeah and I guess... Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:24:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, I was just so annoyed with him. I was so angry. I was really... I was so angry with him. I was angrier than I feel I typically get. (PAUSE) It's funny because I haven't had a cigarette in a couple of days because I've been trying to stop and I almost had one yesterday. But I didn't but I came really close though. (PAUSE) I mean, I don't know. I don't really know what to think. I don't really know what to say about it anymore. I feel so lost talking about it, to be honest with you.

(PAUSE) [00:25:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well... Yeah. Well, one thing I was realizing is we've been talking about what happened and I was wondering what you felt about it.

CLIENT: I mean...

THERAPIST: Talk about it here.

CLIENT: There was something that he wanted done last week.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: He said he wanted it done on Friday. So I took some stuff home on Monday. You know, I went up and met with him on Monday, or Tuesday, rather, because he said that it would be a good day for me to, to come up and meet with him and I got there and... (PAUSE) He ended up not even really being able to talk about it because these people showed up for the these meetings that he scheduled that he had forgotten about. So I ended up kind of making these copies of my own and it became evident to me that he had these people waiting there and I wasn't going to be able to discuss with him, you know, this particular piece of writing that he wanted and how he wanted it done, so on and so forth. [00:26:05]

So I kind of made some copies of things that I needed and I just kind of popped into this meeting and said, "Dad, I've got to get running," and he was like, "Alright." And then I called him up the next morning and I was like, "I just wanted to touch base with you about how you wanted this done," and he was like, "Oh, didn't you make copies of this like particular case law that was in the file?" I was like, "There wasn't any in there," and he was like, "Oh, you know, there was." There wasn't but he was like, "There was. I'll text it to you tomorrow." He didn't text it to me until... He didn't text it to me at all. This was...

THERAPIST: On Thursday? On Thursday?

CLIENT: He got in touch with me on Friday which was the day I kind of had to work on it and he didn't, there wasn't, he thought that he had something but he didn't and he basically sort of said I should research and look for it. This was like midday on Friday at that point. [00:27:01]

THERAPIST: And Friday was your day you were going to work?

CLIENT: I was going to try and work on Friday. Yeah. By the time I had spoken to him, I had scheduled and planned for it, you know, according to some certain ideas that he had given me about what it would take and whatnot. But he was just being extremely cryptic and unclear and not really thinking about what he was saying to me and it was making it really hard for me to do anything for him and, you know, by that point on Friday, I had sort of like rescheduled my day a little bit for some other work that I had to do for Hika (ph) because I had no clue sort of what he wanted. He said he wanted it done by Sunday so I was able then to work on it Sunday but I had to cancel plans with Isaiah to do it.

THERAPIST: Oh, he wanted it done by Sunday? [00:27:55]

CLIENT: Well, yeah. He said he wanted it on Friday so he could have it by Monday but then when we spoke on Friday, I was like, "When do you actually need this by?" You know? Then on... (PAUSE) I wasn't able to do it on Saturday because I had stuff I had to do all day on Saturday. By that point on Friday, I was pretty booked up on stuff because I didn't know if I was going to hear from him or not. You know? So I started working on it on Sunday. (PAUSE) You know, I called him up on Sunday and I was like, "Dad, you know, what you're looking for is really, you know, not clear to me. Give me a... You know, I've spoken to you about three or four times over the last week and you said something completely different every single time." He was like, "Oh, no, no, no, no. That's not the case," or something. I honestly couldn't really even follow what he was saying and...

THERAPIST: Hmm. [00:28:59]

CLIENT: I just didn't... I didn't like where I was, I had to kind of keep pulling at him for stuff because I could tell he was going to get annoyed.

THERAPIST: Ah.

CLIENT: And... (PAUSE) You know, I felt like... I think I told you a long time ago I had that conversation with him when I was doing math homework or something. You know, he was like, "You know, maybe I'm not the best one to be doing this with you," or something and, "Maybe you should be doing this with your mom," or something. Do you remember that conversation?

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: You know, I really wanted to say like that to him right then. "You know, maybe I'm not the best one to be doing this with you." You know? Like I wanted to like... Like, I felt that. I wanted to like redeploy those words back against him. We ended up just getting into like an argument on the phone and he was like, "Oh, you know, this is too late to be having this conversation." I was like, "Yeah, this is too late for me to having it too. You know? If you had, you know, gotten me this stuff earlier when you said you were going to, then this could have been done days ago." [00:30:07]

He just sort of shut down and just kind of started getting, you know, angry and upset and I don't even remember what I he was saying. I was like, "You know, maybe you should just do this." He was like, "No, I can't do it now." I was like, "Alright. You know, I'm going to hang up and just send you over and just do this and send it over to you what you want, what you're asking for even though it doesn't really make any sense to me." We got off the phone and then he called me back, you know, a few minutes later, that he was... (PAUSE) He was sort of weirdly apologetic. He was... I mean, I was still really frustrated. [00:30:59]

I wasn't really interested in talking to him. But he was like, "I'm sorry that the conversation went that way." Like he said that our emotions got the better of us both and then he said something. I don't remember what he said. He said something like... (PAUSE) It was interesting I think he said we're both beyond that, we're both past that or something. Like we're both sort of like developed beyond that type of dynamic. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Oh, okay. [00:31:57]

CLIENT: Which struck me as odd because I didn't really feel that way, I guess. But... (PAUSE) You know, I sent him over the thing and he texted me back. He said, "This is great. This is how I wanted it done." You know? But I didn't know if he was saying that. You know?

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Almost to cool the thing down?

CLIENT: Yeah. I think I was almost getting angry at him doing it, at him... Like it was frustrating me that he was sort of extinguishing it or something. You know?

THERAPIST: Uh huh. [00:33:03]

CLIENT: I kind of wanted to keep that going a little bit.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It kind of makes sense though because it was bringing the whole, something that you guys were, something that you guys were getting into around this work matter was important, was like an important way to get at something about the relationship going on between you two. You know?

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess I just wanted to hear, I just wanted him to hear me being upset with him. You know, I almost wonder...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...if him calling back and, you know, apologizing was... because the only thing particularly different about the conversation... In the past, we've had conversations where it's kind of gone down that road and he sort of reacted, he'd sort of say things similar to what he said when he was getting a little upset. But I think the only thing particularly different was me sort of getting upset back at him or something. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:34:01]

CLIENT: I seriously wonder if him sort of extinguishing it was, had more to do with his discomfort with that. You know what I mean? And the fact that he was getting angry or something. Because it just doesn't seem very unique to me. You know what I mean? Him trying to... (PAUSE) ...sort of squash it or to kind of just get, you know, kind of put it behind us, he was trying to, he was reacting more to me getting angry to him. You know what I mean? Than him sort of frustrated at me and I think that's why I was annoyed. Like I didn't want him to just sort of, yeah, extinguish those flames or something. [00:35:03]

THERAPIST: Extinguish.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? I was kind of... I think, in a way, I was sort of glad that I got there for a minute. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I wanted to keep, I wanted to kind of stay there and see what would happen, I guess. You know, it felt like I was really hard for me to get there, in a way, even though I was so upset with him.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Like, for a while, yesterday I was even kind of like trying to put together a text message to him to sort of communicate something along those lines but I really couldn't do it. You know?

THERAPIST: A text message that would communicate...

CLIENT: You know, something like, you know, basically like, "Dad, this is really pissing me off."

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: "You're being incredibly unclear and, you know, you're rushing me off the phone when I like canceled all my shit today to work on this. You know? Which I would really rather not being doing today, which I am really only doing today because, you know, you didn't do something really simple last week that you said you were going to do." [00:36:11]

You know, I wanted to. I was looking for a way to sort of get that out. You know? It wasn't until we were on the phone when we came out with like a... Once he sort of poked at it a little bit and made like a little opening by talking about or expression his frustration and I just felt like it all just sort of poured right out. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (PAUSE) Yeah. It's the exact opposite of things being cool between you two. [00:37:57]

CLIENT: Yeah. But it was, and it was interesting because how quickly he tried to make it like... He seemed... (PAUSE) Like he called back to try to like... (PAUSE) ...to try to not have the last thing that we spoke about be me getting frustrated with him. You know? Like he seemed pretty uncomfortable with that. He seemed pretty incapable of letting that sort of linger.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: He didn't want that to be the last, you know, laugh, so to speak or... I don't know. Which is interesting. I mean, he seemed to really sort of react to it. It seemed to really sort of penetrate and he paid attention to it. [00:38:05]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: I don't know. It's just all very different. It just all felt different. I guess it leaves me feeling like a lot of that sort of like anxiety and stuff, thinking about acting upon, thinking about like actually recreating something, like me getting, trying to find a new job and then like... (PAUSE) ...me saying to him, "I did this because I really don't think it's working out between you and I," or something. Like thinking about like the actual implications of that.

THERAPIST: Ah. [00:38:59]

CLIENT: I don't know if I want actually really try to take responsibility for that or something. You know what I mean? It seems a little big. It seems...

THERAPIST: I'd be a big statement.

CLIENT: Yeah. It feels a little scary. You know? I don't know. Maybe I haven't really thought through all the implications of that. Maybe that makes me responsible for it or something.

THERAPIST: Like it would mean a hell of a lot to him for you to...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...just say, "I'm taking another job."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: "I'm not dealing with this anymore."

CLIENT: Yeah and to tell him I'm doing it because, "I'm sort of frustrated with you and the way that you are. You know, I think you're..." (PAUSE) Yeah, take into account, you know, that there's someone else involved in this deal with you. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:40:01]

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. I think it's a... It's a way you're trying to show your dad something you see in him. You know, it's a really... Your feelings about him and your response to him, showing him you, you know, really showing him you and how you are with him, who your are with him and in a real live way.

CLIENT: You know, it's funny because even that little phrase that I just said there like, I almost had trouble trying to finish that sentence because, as I was saying, it, it just seemed silly how applicable it seemed to like help my frustrations with my dad and how he related to my mom. Like almost word for word. Like, "You're not taking into account that there's someone else here who has feelings and a life and, you know, beyond your own immediate needs." You know? [00:41:15]

THERAPIST: You almost had trouble saying that?

CLIENT: I almost... Well, I mean, I almost didn't want to finish the sentence where I was talking about what was frustrating me about my work relationship with my dad and what it just didn't seem really applicable to my frustrations with my dad's like marriage relationship with my mom and the way he handled that. It just sounded like I was... (PAUSE) Yeah. Like I'm trying to find a way to articulate things that I feel about to him. Like it seemed that I was using it as an example to almost... You could see how very easily it would be used to almost as a sort of conduit to things beyond just like my work relationship with my dad. [00:42:07]

THERAPIST: Oh. I see. Hmm.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know.

(PAUSE) [00:43:00]

THERAPIST: What's coming to mind?

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:43:01) is just like feelings of like... And I just keeping looking at... I look at that picture so much and it just keeps reminding me of this window in my old house where I lived with my mom and my dad to just like completely associate. Like I keep looking at that and I...

THERAPIST: Yeah, what is that?

CLIENT: Like looking out this window, it just reminds me of this big sliding door that was in the sort of dining area of the house that I lived in with my mom and my dad. And just like... I don't know. Just like the feelings of being in that house. Like, that's what I mean when I'm like those like young infantilizing feelings because it reminds me of like that kind of stuff, just this dynamic. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Just this frustration.

THERAPIST: I see. So the... Are you saying the feelings themselves lead you to feel more infantilized position or something? [00:44:05]

CLIENT: These feelings and like these frustrations with my dad...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...they feel very, they feel like very similar. They're like a re emergence of feelings that I felt like were very prominent during, you know, a time in my life when my parents' relationship and stuff were like way more immediate factors like my day to day happenings. You know what I mean? Like these feelings just seem, they just, they're just... I don't know. You know, sometimes you smell something and it's like déjà vu or something. I mean, it's that type of thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, it's very hard to even put your finger on or something. But like that's what that like...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(CROSSTALK) [00:45:01]

CLIENT: It seems that memory or something just seems to come back. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. (PAUSE) What are you looking up there...

CLIENT: I don't know. I look up there and it just reminds me of, yeah, just this big window in our kitchen, by like the kitchen table. I don't know why. You know, right around where we would have all eaten together if we ever did, which happened, you know, a few times. Yeah, and even like this one time that I can remember really getting angry at my dad, like, around my mom and he was sitting like right there. You know what I mean? [00:46:07]

But he like even reacted very similarly. I remember like one time they were getting really angry at each other because my dad was on the phone and my mom was doing something like emptying the dishwasher and he like flipped out on her because he was trying to talk on the phone or something. And then I like... She got angry like right at my dad and not even like my mom and my dad were fighting but she just like flipped out on my dad. I was probably in the eighth grade or something. My dad like looked at me like shocked like, "You're angry at me?" I think he even said that. Like, "Why me?" You know? Yeah. I don't know.

(PAUSE) [00:47:00]

CLIENT: I guess I didn't really have anything to say about it. I was angry at him but I didn't... He sort of asked me why. I didn't like say it. It makes sense when I tell it.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? I don't know. That's what it reminds me of.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: But I was really... Yeah. I was really annoyed at him. I thought he was just being really stupid.

(PAUSE) [00:48:00]

CLIENT: I guess I was sort of called to account for it or something. I guess I felt kind of (inaudible at 00:48:11) him.

THERAPIST: What was that?

CLIENT: I was sort of asked to justify it or something.

THERAPIST: To justify what you were feeling?

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess it didn't. I guess I didn't really know how to.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I felt really silly at the time, I guess.

THERAPIST: Silly.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess I just sort of cowered back from it. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Like something just kind of went off inside of you and you couldn't kind of explain it or...

CLIENT: Yeah. It kind of came out and I wasn't really able to stand behind it or something. You know? [00:48:57]

THERAPIST: Yeah. As if you felt the need to kind of explain it, make it, have it make sense to him.

CLIENT: Yeah, it wasn't sort of justified because I was feeling that way.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. I see. Right, right, right.

CLIENT: That wasn't really enough or something unless it could be sort of like further articulated with like clear premises and conclusions or something. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. More than that.

CLIENT: Yeah. He was like, "Why are you mad at me?"

THERAPIST: Yeah, "Why are you mad at me?"

CLIENT: Like almost like, "I'm mad at your mom. Why aren't you mad at your mom too?" You know? "Like obviously that's who you're supposed to be mad at." You know?

THERAPIST: Okay. That was the (inaudible at 00:49:51)

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. It left me feeling like just super uncomfortable. You know? [00:50:01]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah and just similar. Just not feeling very strong, just feeling kind of vulnerable in the face of feeling kind of angry at him.

THERAPIST: Yeah. In a way, that like, you then like formed a relationship with that sense of feelings like being silly or unjustified or... Yeah. Some unjustified, inexplicable kind of response.

CLIENT: I mean, just feeling like... I know I feel very angry about it but like that doesn't really seem to mean anything.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Like some further...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Well, that was five minutes. It's over.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I'll see you on Thursday.

THERAPIST: Thursday.

CLIENT: Thank you.

END TRANSCRIPT