TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: This is totally, (pause) I don�t know. Once in a while. I don�t know.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah, well.

CLIENT: I don�t think it met to be.

THERAPIST: No, of course it didn�t.

CLIENT: I mean it�s fair to say to say, most people would feel generally.

THERAPIST: Generally, no, yeah I get it. (overlapping voices) (pause)

CLIENT: I�m getting a new calendar tonight, so I can start (background noise) (inaudible at 00:00:27) again.

THERAPIST: It sounds like you had a fun morning.

CLIENT: And then grab it right after this at the (pause) at the station at (inaudible at 00:0035)

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Just to be clear, (pause) we said (pause) on Tuesday � Mondays.

THERAPIST: Mondays, yeah.

CLIENT: At 6:15.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: Or 6:10?

THERAPIST: I can do 6:10, yeah.

CLIENT: 6:10.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: All right.

THERAPIST: Starting � okay.

CLIENT: And starting next week.

THERAPIST: Starting next week, yep.

CLIENT: Cool. (pause) Mondays, (pause) 6:10. There must be a way to (inaudible at 00:01:15).

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. I feel that�s, yeah it�s usually the (inaudible at 00:01:21).

CLIENT: It�s totally dark [most time at that time, isn�t it] (ph)?

THERAPIST: Yeah. It�s not like this.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Have you ever had crazy like (pause) emergency sessions at like 4 in the morning or something with people on the phone or anything? Like a was it (inaudible at 00:01:49)?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, right. (pause) No, I haven�t had a 4 am. I�ve had people call, but I don�t think I�ve been awake for it.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You�d have people call you at like in the middle of the night?

THERAPIST: I think yeah, sure. Sure; I can�t remember the last time, but it�s a �

CLIENT: It�s a more rare occurrence? [00:02:18]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I can�t remember. (pause) I�m more � I�m thinking out of it must have happened. Yes. (pause)

CLIENT: I think I�d be a little more surprised that it never happened once though.

THERAPIST: Yeah right. Yeah, but I can�t recall when the last time that happened. (pause) Oh man, um (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, I�d like some water please, since it�s sitting there.

THERAPIST: Yeah, when did we last -

CLIENT: Last time would have been (pause) at two � because we missed last week. But then we took the week off before.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Like you (inaudible at 00:03:05).

THERAPIST: The first week of June, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, my internship, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So you were switching up, and I said I would get back to you just another time. (pause) I feel like that week we had said unless, you know, you�re -

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: I felt like that was -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It�s literally three weeks or something right now.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) It�s been awhile.

CLIENT: Oh hey, I totally forgot too, I just forgot to bring my checkbook with me today, and didn�t have time to run to the bank, but next time I�ll bring it with me.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: I�ll get it; that�s important. Yeah, I�ve just been doing my internship at the public defender.

THERAPIST: Yeah, how�s it been?

CLIENT: It�s been good. It�s been a good experience. (pause) You know, all things considered, it�s been really good so far.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It�s a really nice office; really nice group of people (pause) doing work that I think is really important. And (pause) yeah, it�s nice; it�s enjoyable; it�s fun; it�s (pause) a place, you know, where people are doing work that I could definitely see myself (pause) doing, and really really enjoying it.

THERAPIST: Huh! [00:04:31]

CLIENT: Which is really good. I mean that seems like simple, but -

THERAPIST: No, yeah, it�s big.

CLIENT: coming out of (sigh) your first year of law school. I went to law school knowing that it�s, you know, kind of a (pause) difficult community. Like I went to law school knowing that I wanted to do something that was kind of like not super mainstream, you know, where maybe there�s less opportunities. To do jobs like a cool defense attorney, or a public defender; those are kind of like sought after competitor jobs. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Is that what most � when would you say most people will go to your law school, or you�re interested in doing? More like either criminal defense, or -

CLIENT: Criminal defense � I shouldn�t have said that, because criminal defense can be extraordinarily lucrative. What I meant to say was like public defense.

THERAPIST: Public defense.

CLIENT: That�s it.

THERAPIST: Okay. [00:05:32] (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah I mean just by virtue of the fact that there�s very few positions as staff attorneys, and then very few people do it privately, because it�s (more) (ph) money too. There�s not a lot of those positions. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Ah-huh.

CLIENT: Like I probably won�t get a job working in a public defender office coming out of law school.

THERAPIST: But it�s sought after is what you�re saying.

CLIENT: Well that�s the thing about it, is that like the pay is absolutely (overlapping voices). And actually in my little break in between finals and when I started my internship, the Mass. Bar Association came up with a report, which they do every couple of years in assessing like the crisis in the publicly appointed council. And the starting salary in Connecticut for a [staff attorney for CPCS is 40 grand a year, which is like bad in itself. But adjusted for the cost of living across the country, it basically equates to like the most on salary in the country. You know. [00:06:48]

THERAPIST: For any public defender; state defender?

CLIENT: Yeah, of any state in the country. (overlapping voices) Even without any, I was shocked to see how low it is, even before that.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that�s real I mean how do you even pay your student loans, let alone (overlapping voices)

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean that�s the thing. There�s few positions that I want of people just literally cannot make the decision to do it. Like the money just does not, you know, equate. But again, that�s one of the reasons why I was excited to get that scholarship [and move on] (ph).

THERAPIST: (Ohio) (ph) too will be the most like an AmeriCorps experience, where you do it; you get some forgiveness on your loans.

CLIENT: Well there is a program for it. I mean it�s like hardly forgiveness; you have to make let�s see, (pause) it�s basically � is it 240 payments? You have to make two years� worth of monthly payments while working a full-time public interest law position. [00:07:58] (pause)

You know, so that�s � it�s still going to be a long time before you kind of get a � and you can only do it monthly.

THERAPIST: Wait, say that again; so how does it work?

CLIENT: So how many months are in a year?

THERAPIST: 12.

CLIENT: And then (pause) times 10, 120. So you have to make 240 monthly payments while employed (pause) in a qualifying public interest legal position.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So at minimum, like if didn�t have any lapses of employment, and you go to work right away, you could do it in 20 years. You know. (pause)

THERAPIST: Oh, what do they set the -

CLIENT: I�m pretty sure that�s a 20-year installment.

THERAPIST: But you still have pay � you�re still paying something monthly, it�s less than the entire -

CLIENT: Oh absolutely. I mean most people won�t (chuckle) (inaudible at 00:08:50) that far, beyond 20 years (chuckle).

THERAPIST: Oh okay.

CLIENT: I�m pretty sure that�s it. (pause) It can�t be ten years; that wouldn�t -

THERAPIST: I would guess most would be about 30; student loans.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Maybe there�s some at like 45; God that�d be a risky loan to wreak.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean it� s (pause) beyond just like being convenient for students; it leads to all sorts of problems in any profession where people who were able to get jobs can�t do important types of work; countered by the fact that the state pays them such atrociously (overlapping voices).

So that combined with the fact that, you know, the market�s horrible. You know, people are willing to do anything for little amounts of money. I was just like that�s what I really wanted to do, and it was kind of � I felt like (pause) I was just kind of feeling a little like, �Man I hope there�s actually like one jobs out there.� That I was telling myself will make law school worthwhile.

And all in all, it�d just be nice to kind of come out of that uncertainty about the school year, and just have like a really nice experience;

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: My own office, and just -

THERAPIST: Like what you�re doing?

CLIENT: Yeah, I really like it; yeah. And it�s nice to see that there are really really good people (pause) there, and (pause) yeah, getting out of the classroom and having the kind of the latest academic approach (inaudible at 00:10:37). (pause) Yeah, it�s refreshment.

THERAPIST: Yeah, what�s the different to you? What do you notice about -

CLIENT: Oh my God, like (pause) the difference is almost like (pause) it almost just seems like a misnomer; say like was being educated; this (background noise) (inaudible at 00:11:01) like I�m going into right now. Some analytical principles kind of apply and everything.

But like my first day when I showed up at 9:00 in the morning, on that Monday; I just kind of showed up; I had no idea really what was going on. I was kind of thinking to myself, jeez I hope I don�t show up here, and like they don�t even know who I am, and they forgot about me or something, because I hadn�t spoken to anybody in a while. And the attorney that I spoke with on the phone, he just came out, and he was like, �Hey, how�s it going?� And he�s like, �I�m going over to the courthouse, why don�t you just come over with me, and you can kind of follow me around for a day?�

We were just walking around, and we were just seeing everything, and I remember the first day, he went to me, or he went to go speak with a client that had just been arraigned. And he came from the state prison where he was being held. He was like, �Let�s go upstairs, and we�ll meet with him.� [00:11:58]

I had no idea that � I mean I knew he was like incarcerated, because he was in handcuffs, and he was inside like the cage that�s inside every courtroom. But then we went into the walk-up, and you go through like this office door, and it�s like a jail inside the courthouse.

THERAPIST: This is in Poundbury?

CLIENT: This is in Bellevue.

THERAPIST: Bellevue.

CLIENT: This is in every courthouse; every courthouse -

THERAPIST: So they can hold -

CLIENT: Yeah, and I mean in a way I guess I could have inferred that, but -

THERAPIST: But yeah, you don�t see it when you�re walking up there, and then -

CLIENT: Yeah, you don�t think about it. I had never been in a jail, or a prison or anything, and it was like (pause) I felt like I was going to almost throw up in my mouth.

THERAPIST: Oh really?

CLIENT: Oh my God, you go through and you�re walking past these offices; district attorney�s offices; everybody in suits, you know, nice tiles and everything. Then you go into this place, and it�s just like a kennel, with these people behind these glass walls. Oh man, and I was like -(pause)

We spent like a semester studying criminal law, and (pause) you know, I did well; I got an A in criminal law, and was really happy about it. But you feel like you have no ability to make sense of seeing people be caged up like that. [00:13:19]

THERAPIST: It doesn�t get you ready for that.

CLIENT: Yeah, you can just start [sitting off the elements of the varsity] (ph). You know what I mean? It�s just like you realize that, and you�ve just been kind of in an ivy tower for a year and a half.

THERAPIST: I never thought about that. (pause) Yeah.

CLIENT: I think that just has been the most shocking experience seeing that stuff. (pause)

THERAPIST: What was it, yeah; you said it just felt like a kennel.

CLIENT: That�s literally what it looks like. Have you ever been to an adoption center?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know how when you walk in, there�s like the main area. And there�s tiles on the ground, and it�s nice; it�s like a store; it�s really nice. Then there�s usually a little room with cages for the cats.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: But then for dogs, you go through a door, and it�s just cement floors and cages. [00:14:17]

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Have you ever been to a place like that?

THERAPIST: I haven�t been to one just like that, but I know I can imagine.

CLIENT: It�s just cement walls, and smells dirty, you know, there�s piss everywhere. (pause) Ehh. I don�t know.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it was like that?

CLIENT: Yeah, that�s literally what I (overlapping voices)

THERAPIST: Because there�s like what? One toilet or something, and there�s a -

CLIENT: No, every cell had � I mean there�s like cells with two or three people in them, and there�s toilets just no privacy or anything.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, we were talking to them, and it�s not like cages the way like in the movies, it�s just a glass wall, and a little hold where they�ll put their hands in when they taken out, so they can put the handcuffs on them. Then when they in, they put their hands back through the holes to get them off.

The guy we were talking to was on his knees, like looking through the hole talking to us. [00:15:14]

THERAPIST: Oh so you could hear him.

CLIENT: Yeah, because through the glass you couldn�t talk. It was just really -

THERAPIST: Wow. What had he done? What was the charge? But he had been arraigned, so that means -

CLIENT: He had been � it was all sorts of stuff; he was in really bad trouble; he was going to get deported no matter what. (pause) And he didn�t speak English, so there was like a translator there, you know. And this was all within like my first 35 minutes of being there. You know what I mean?

And I�m like on a train, looking at my notes from the semester.

THERAPIST: And you�re like going, �Is this [now to be the place right now] (ph)?�

CLIENT: Yeah, it�s just like yeah, I don�t know if I knew about this. You know what I mean? I had idea what goes on there.

THERAPIST: You went right to it.

CLIENT: Yeah. It was really � (chuckle) you know, I�m not going to lie; the guy that I work with is really � he�s a really nice guy, and he�s really really sensitive; he�s really I think like emotionally aware of the people around him. But, maybe he�s very sensitive at this sort of work that he does, but I was really surprised. [00:16:28]

I feel like if I was someone who had an intern on their first day, I would (chuckle) probably say to them, �Have you ever been like in a walk-up? Have you ever seen it before?�

THERAPIST: Get ready.

CLIENT: I don�t know, like -

THERAPIST: But it since just come off.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Yeah. Just to say it again, it�s just the experience has kind of just � it�s been really good, and it has made it very clear to me that there�s an opportunity to do something with this degree after law school, that is very much not like law school. You know what I mean? Particularly in some of the ways that I can thoroughly get frustrated with throughout the year. [00:17:26] (pause)

THERAPIST: I see, yes. (pause) If ever removed from the world of like what we�ve been talking about, of kind of like the whole realm of � you know, even though that I know this means less to you than it has in the past, but like grades.

CLIENT: Oh you know absolutely, it�s like this stuff is � I mean yeah.

THERAPIST: This has no -

CLIENT: No, that�s really � (pause) that�s really true. (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, I imagine that�s very, very (overlapping voices)

CLIENT: That�s not about � I don�t know, I guess and one of the things I think that I like about time in the office � and I do spend a lot of time at a desk, researching legal issues, and writing legal stuff, you know, so it�s not like (pause) I�m flying around a courthouse all day. I�m doing academic type things. (pause)

And so far, that was a really kind of defining feature of my academic experience, what you were just referring to. (pause) That does not kind of really find its way as much.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like you�re -

CLIENT: I haven�t even thought about it, (inaudible at 00:18:55) to be honest.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like you�re kind of like when you�re there at work, you�re kind of � I mean is the work really centered on cases that are working right in front of you, and you�re -

CLIENT: Oh yeah. You know an attorney went back from court, and had just gotten a case, and she�d be like, can you look this up? Can you look up some case law around this?

THERAPIST: Yeah, ah-huh, okay.

CLIENT: It�s cool; it�s like wow, there�s actually like a guy in jail; maybe I can try to find something about it. (overlapping voices)

THERAPIST: You�re going to be working on, yeah, like on the case for them.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: Wow. (pause) That�s a good sign man, to be feeling as if you really can find yourself into the work and seeing yourself in it.

CLIENT: I mean that�s not lost on me. Like (pause) I�m aware of how good that is. And I think I�m aware of how upsetting it would have been to me if like this thing that I kind of was holding out, that�s the exception throughout the whole year. You know what I mean?

(background noise) (inaudible at 00:20:09) at law school, because then its experience with that�s really good for you. If this was really crappy, I think it would have been really discouraging.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. Not your (inaudible at 00:20:21).

CLIENT: That didn�t really really discourage me. (pause) But I also did really well on my classes; I don�t think we even talked since the list came out.

THERAPIST: I think you said you got one back, or you said you got a B+ or something, or an A-.

CLIENT: I got an Ain common law.

THERAPIST: That was it.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I got an A in criminal law.

THERAPIST: Oh you did.

CLIENT: I was shocked, but I did.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: And I got a B+ in civil procedure, which (chuckle) I thought � I really thought I was going to kill.

THERAPIST: That you did know; yeah, you thought � I think you said that. But yeah, I didn�t hear about the A in criminal.

CLIENT: Yeah, so I got an A in criminal law, and an A in contracts, and an Ain common law and then B+ in everything else. I got ranked 17 out of 163. [00:21:13]

THERAPIST: 17 out of � yeah right. Right at around 10% at that.

CLIENT: They have a thing called Suffolk Scholar, which is like a little distinction you get if at the end of the year, you�re in the top 10%. And I did math though, and that was like 10.3%.

THERAPIST: Yeah, you like went below it. (overlapping voices)

CLIENT: I was wondering how they were going to around it, but they rounded into my favor. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: They did.

CLIENT: Yeah, so they gave me that.

THERAPIST: All right, congratulations; that�s great.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: That�s awesome. (pause) Oh, so yeah, so it�s like 10.5 or under?

CLIENT: I mean this is the top 10% of the class. You know, I did it out, and on my kind of like when they did in the fourth grade with cross multiplying; it was like 10.4%.

THERAPIST: Yeah right, because 16 (pause) yeah it�s 16, I mean 160 -

CLIENT: 117 over 60 -

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You�re right there.

CLIENT: Because 17�s yeah, right in that 10% area; yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:22:12]

CLIENT: It actually should be in the top 10%, because it�s closer to 200 than it is � anyway, yeah. That�s great.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah, well the apparently the school agrees with you.

CLIENT: Ah-huh. That�s all that matters.

THERAPIST: Yeah. so that was (pause) that was nice to get those kind of grades, right.

CLIENT: So that was (pause) that was nice to get those kind of grades, right.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah.

CLIENT: I guess probably that in conjunction with, (pause) you know, enjoying the stuff that I�m doing.

THERAPIST: Well doesn�t that (pause) that opens up opportunities, like if you wanted to do with the law review or stuff like that? Is that -

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean � maybe we didn�t (pause) yeah, we actually didn�t � the last week before I started the internship, I did the application for the law review thing.

THERAPIST: Oh really?

CLIENT: It�s a real pain actually, yeah; it�s like a one time (background noise) (inaudible at 00:23:10), you know. So yeah, now that the grades are in, they�re going to still let us know at some point. [00:23:18]

THERAPIST: Oh okay.

CLIENT: But we�ll see; we�ll see how that goes. (pause) It�s cool; the other thing that�s really kind of been like a noticeable kind of difference between the school year and my time at this internship, is when I leave at 5:00, it�s like a 9-5, and (pause) sometimes my mind is still stuck on things, and I�ll kind of be poking around on the computer when I get home.

But for the most part, I can come home and just kind of spend time with Laney, you know, and really be there with her, and (pause) not take work home. Which is really nice too. (pause) And other weekends when I�m not working and stuff, (pause)

THERAPIST: Now does she have her weekends off?

CLIENT: Not usually, but she�ll have like a Saturday night off. And I mean it�s just like in those little pockets of time, at night when she got home from work or something when I was always pretty preoccupied -

THERAPIST: You don�t have to have your nose in a book?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Which I always was absorbed in a book; that kind of (inaudible at 00:24:49).

THERAPIST: Yeah, how�s it been with the two of you?

CLIENT: It�s been good this week, but I think (pause) we�ve definitely � I feel like I�ve seen more of her over the last couple of weeks, even though we�ve been living together (inaudible at 00:25:12). I mean this gets serious; I remember, I think I told you a while ago, in like the middle of a really busy part of the semester, (pause) Laney had asked me if � (pause) I don�t remember how she put it, but she basically said like, �Is this what like your study of the law is always going to be like? You know, like after law school, and you�re working as a lawyer.�

It wasn�t really like (pause) it was like a genuine question. I think she just genuinely wanted to know; she wasn�t like insinuating anything, like she wouldn�t want to be with somebody forever that was as busy as I was. But, you know, it kind of shook me a little bit, you know what I mean? [00:26:04] (pause)

And then maybe, I don�t know, I guess kind of you wonder.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I was like, I don�t think so, no. (pause) I�m telling myself it�s not.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I remember you bringing that up, and that it brings up like a feeling, I mean among other things, like a feeling of it sounded to me like, �Yeah, I don�t want this person to be kind of suffering for � suffering as part of being with me.� Have to kind of � you know, it sounded like the tone of her voice didn�t give you that feeling, but more as the anxiety of the possibility of it (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess it made me wonder if like I could really say for certain. And it made me wonder if, (pause) you know, maybe it wasn�t like a score that made me (pause) it wasn�t something that had to do with law school. It�s just that literally, that kind of led me to be that kind of focused on schoolwork instead of Laney. It was like, just that I hoped that like � I hope I wouldn�t find a way to have to do that in a different situation. (pause) You know what I mean? [00:27:36]

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: I hope I am not doing this like unconsciously on purpose or something.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I hope I really don�t have any choice. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: I don�t know, it made me think -

THERAPIST: Kind of that it would � that it would � I see � that it would � you worry that it would be like this is your way of (pause) a reaction to the relationship, but more than just needing to study.

CLIENT: Yeah, that (pause) I was kind of like (gluing) (ph) myself, in saying that I didn�t come here (inaudible at 00:28:15) or something; it�s just kind of the demands of law school.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I guess, you know, it reminds me in some ways that you sort of � just thinking even about us talking � even if there�s a concern if we talk about you and Laney in some way, would it kind of (pause) wanting it to remain kind of pure from any kind of like ambivalence. Like I don�t want it to reveal some hidden ambivalence or something like that.

CLIENT: Mm-mm.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah, there was a, (pause) you know, like the complicated, messy, (pause) skeleton written kind of area, you usually see my parents [in the film] (ph).

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I just think of the past; my family, and just (pause) still is more representative of the future, and you have all of that. [00:29:23]

THERAPIST: Yeah, and then that�s like kind of an anxiety that would, if there was some sort of thing � if there was some sort of �problem� with an even small lower case p, that it might be kind of what does that mean? How serious would it � is that the past? Is that too linked up with like the messiness of what you saw in your parents� relationship or something like that?

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean it � I generally have a really, (pause) you know, I think for (pause) with respect to the kind of the different things in my life that are really central to it, I feel like Laney has uniquely kind of positive and untainted aspects. (pause) Like she�s a person that (pause) I care about a lot. And I don�t even � that doesn�t make me scared or something. That doesn�t just lead to more concern. The more I actually like her or cared about our friendship, the more it just made me unhappy, like I was just scared I was going to mess up or something.

Like that stuff doesn�t happen. You know what I mean? [00:30:57]

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, I would be really (pause) I�d be concerned if I felt like I was kind of � like we�ve talking about, seeing those kind of things starting to come out, mixed with each other would be really alarming.

THERAPIST: Mm-mm.

CLIENT: (pause) I guess I hang on to the possibility of (pause) happiness and stuff with it that (chuckle) (pause). And I guess when she said that comment, it kind of freaked me out. [00:32:07]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (pause) And I feel like I (pause) was kind of waiting for the internship to use it as kind of like a test tube for that. You know what I mean? Because if I can�t do it at a public defender office, and I�m not getting paid; it�s an unpaid internship, then I definitely won�t be able to do it if I�m actually employed in that line of work. You know.

THERAPIST: Do � (pause) I was just thinking to myself -

CLIENT: It�s like summer in a place that � in an office that I�d love to work in someday. If when I�m an unpaid intern, and no one could ever expect me to do anything after 5:00.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah.

CLIENT: I mean (inaudible at 00:32:56) at 5:00. It�s like if I (chuckle) can�t set limits on it there, then I�ll become like a canary or mime type thing, you know. It�s just very nice to kind of have that.

THERAPIST: To kind of know that it wouldn�t be something that would be trying on Laney.

CLIENT: Yeah. If those things continued into the internship, it would just seem � it would�ve kind of concerned me.

THERAPIST: Sure, sure. Is that part of the appeal of the job too, is that it would feel like, well at least it�s not going to be like these � some of these law firms where you work 90 hours a week.

CLIENT: That�s the thing, (pause) (sigh) Laney and I watched this documentary (chuckle) talking about public defenders in like Georgia, and they�re like the commoners; they get paid nothing, but they work these crazy hours.

THERAPIST: Really? [00:33:55]

CLIENT: I mean a lot of them. Yeah, they don�t at the office that I�m at. I think the movie maybe played it up a bit, but (pause) there�s a lot � there�s definitely (pause) a sort of like a tendency I think maybe to (pause) work, you know, like (lobbying) (ph) after or something, where people � when things get really busy or whatever. (pause)

So that�s not an element of the job in the way that I see it and Laney sees it. (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: So it�s still good. And an interesting thing too is like I don�t � I think I � my dad�s a bar attorney in Berlin, so he�s employed by CPCS. So he works very closely with a lot of (pause) like the CPCS staff attorneys in Dresden.

THERAPIST: What does stand for?

CLIENT: A bar advocate?

THERAPIST: No CP -

CLIENT: CPCS is the Committee for Public Counsel Services. It�s just an agency that administers and appoints a counsel to the (inaudible at 00:35:33) of Connecticut.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: They do it through staff attorneys like the office that I�m in with salary, and people like my dad who are typically private, and just get billed by the hour.

THERAPIST: Oh okay. There�s some people that are employed directly through the state and so your dad kind of like has his own private business, but has contracts or -

CLIENT: Yeah. He gets kind of a � like it�s a contracts (thing) (ph).

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: It�s just an attempt to get more people to take the clients, when you know years ago they just didn�t have enough people to do it.

THERAPIST: Okay. (pause) But they get more money? (pause)

CLIENT: It depends how you cut it, like hourly, maybe they get a little bit more hourly. But, they are probably all in all in a more precarious financial situation, if you consider someone who has a bulk of their employment through (pause) like bar advocate work, because there are benefits in (rank) (ph), and if they have own their offices, pay their own overhead, you know any of like secretarial staffing � so either way you cut, it�s kind of a � the idea of when they started the programming was that these people in really big law firms will kind of come in and take cases almost like (pause) not because they needed the money, but I think trying to give them some money to do it. You know what I mean? [00:37:02]

THERAPIST: Tried to give them what?

CLIENT: It�s like 50 bucks an hour; it�s way below the starting rate for a first year law student at a small law firm. It�s really, really, really uncompetitive.

THERAPIST: So some big law firm will take the cases anyway?

CLIENT: I think that was their idea years ago, when they only had salaried attorneys, and they just could not give people � I mean what was happening was people were winning cases, claiming that they were having � their constitutional right of a speedy trial was being denied, because there was just no attorneys that would take that case. You know what I mean?

So they�d send (me) (ph) to find more ways to get attorneys to take these; we�re not going to be able to hire more people probably, because they (pause) really didn�t have the money to hire people, and few people would do it for the amount of money that they were paying at the time. It�s not really the case anymore. [00:38:04]

So they just basically allotted money to get to the people on an hourly basis. But there are people like my dad who make most of their work off of it, I think. The point being, he (pause) I think he probably knows maybe some of the people in my office or something. But I haven�t even told anybody in the office that my dad�s a bar advocate in Dresden, you know. Which I just kind of noticed the other day.

THERAPIST: Yeah. What do you think of it?

CLIENT: I mean like on the one end, it�s like no one asks. But it�s like, you know, (pause) it�s so kind of (pause) related to the things that go on there that, I think I must�ve been intentionally kind of not bringing it up with people.

THERAPIST: Yeah. What�s your sense of want? What is that [00:39:02]

CLIENT: Well I think at first I was probably doing it without noticing it, but I think right now, I just genuinely am not interested when I meet people, in (pause) giving, you know, having a first impression of me possibly be structured around whatever experiences I may have by then. (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, at least that�s what that would be like if you did. I mean even if it�s -

CLIENT: I don�t really know. I guess -

THERAPIST: You imagine � what�s a fantasy? (pause)

CLIENT: I guess I�m imagining that maybe some of them won�t like him.

THERAPIST: Oh, ah-huh. (pause)

CLIENT: I think that I think that�s (pause)

THERAPIST: What kind of impression do you think he makes � would make among your -

CLIENT: I mean the office is eight attorneys, you know, and seven of them are women. And I mean I would be very uncomfortable hanging out � having my dad like come visit me with them, not that he ever would, but like I would be uncomfortable. (pause) Because I feel like he would (pause) do something that he thought was like appropriate or something, and would be offensive. [00:40:18]

THERAPIST: With a woman?

CLIENT: Yeah probably.

THERAPIST: Oh really?

CLIENT: Because I think he does things that are offensive. (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, what � I�m trying to get an image of what that � what you see, or what you imagine of it still.

CLIENT: Well I mean part of it is like, (pause) I don�t know with things that my dad did or something. (pause) Like in the court system. But I know things that my dad�s done, and that he is totally kind of morally at peace with, and continues to do. And I hear anecdotally about the things that he does, and you know, (pause)

I mean, I don�t know. (pause) He�s � (pause) I guess I feel like (background noise) I just sound like I�m saying I�m ashamed of my dad, like I�m [denying my dad from people] (ph). [00:41:32]

THERAPIST: Well to me it sounds like there�s a particular kind of (pause) there�s some particular (pause) impression or something that you would feel (pause) you know, you would kind of (pause) you�re realizing there�s nothing sort of specific or concrete that you know that he�s done, but sort of some feeling of would the impression that he left rub off on you in some way, particularly around maybe women and how women are treated.

CLIENT: That�s exactly, yeah, anyone who were to think I�ve probably interacted with him to any kind of significant extent, you know, as in any kind of (pause) extended interaction with him or something, I think probably is aware that�s (inaudible at 00:42:34) with him. I think that those kind of aspects of his character are much more on display when he�s not around me even.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I�m trying to even get a � what would other people say he�s like if they were to, you know, really come clean and go, �Hey, you dad did �

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:42:52), you know, I wouldn�t say that between you and me.

THERAPIST: Yeah. How does it come across with women and � is it flirtatious? Is it denigrating? Is it critical?

CLIENT: He�s � it�s a small community of attorneys that I think he sleeps around, you know.

THERAPIST: Okay. He does.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Oh okay, okay. (pause) In a very casual kind of way? Is that the thing? Or -

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. (pause) You know, which he does in general, but you know, I know that he�s � kind of does some of that stuff � (corrals) (ph) (overlapping voices) � just like sitting about it for a while. I think that (pause) just sitting around talking with him, I find him to be just (obnoxious) (ph).

THERAPIST: Is that right? Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah; absolutely. The way that he talks about himself and stuff now. (pause) Yeah, I don�t � it�s not � I don�t want to be associated with him. (pause) It�s weird though, I guess I�ve never been in a situation where I like ever had an opportunity to like deny (inaudible at 00:44:26).

THERAPIST: What�s that? Deny?

CLIENT: You know, just (background noise) that there�re guys like him who deny me x number of times, and then they�re like, after he dies, people are like �Do you know Christ?� �No, I have no idea who that is.

THERAPIST: Oh, oh yeah.

CLIENT: You know what I mean, there�s some line where, you know, that�s what I felt like.

THERAPIST: Oh. (pause)

CLIENT: Do you see that? (background noise) It just seems related that it being like in general, it�s a pretty common thing to have. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, ah-huh. (pause) Yeah right, but that they don�t perceive you as having kind of (pause) I don�t know if it feels � if part of it is that like it kind of feels like exploitation or something of women, or -

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:45:30) I think my dad (pause) is � has an absolutely horrible approach towards women in his own like kind of mental system � his own way of thinking about it just morally. I think his actions are absolutely detestable towards women. (pause) If he wasn�t my dad, I would like (pause) he would be like someone I would protest or something. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Ah-huh. (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, I think he�s very (background noise) (inaudible at 00:46:16).

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I don�t think he thinks he�s sexy, because he�s a (pause) very full of himself. I think, you know. (pause)

THERAPIST: Okay. Yeah, I mean you know, it�s not news to me that you�ve had these kind of this sort of sense of your father, but I hadn�t known just what specifically it was. I knew kind of like you had sort of mentioned that, you know, he�d be with � he�d be dating women for a period of time, and then he�d kind of (pause) he�d � I have the impression that he would be like kind of dating somebody, and that it not mean as much to him as it did to them, and he would kind of react that way.

But it (chuckle) sounds a lot more than just that.

CLIENT: No, I mean that�s true. I mean I guess, but like I think he would very close to women � older women, who are older women. I think he would let them get very close to him. I mean (pause) you know, obviously it�s (inaudible at 00:47:18) (chuckle). You know, I�m � with one of them, you�ll have a child. And the child will [be close to him] (ph), you know, like at family dinners and stuff. And he would (pause) (extend) (ph) it when he [got tired of it] (ph).

I mean I�ve seen him just drag women along for a really long time, you know what I mean? (pause) Yeah. I think it�s almost like (inaudible at 00:47:55).

THERAPIST: Oh, okay, yeah. I see, yeah. Yeah, no, I could see how it�d feel, wondering what these women � (overlapping voices)

CLIENT: But like all these women are like all attractive � like he�s just -

THERAPIST: Oh is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: That he feels like pride in how much these women are attractive.

CLIENT: Yeah, he�ll do these things; he�ll these women (pause) that really like him -

THERAPIST: Older women too.

CLIENT: Or women his age. I mean he talks about how like with all these women, and then [there�s likeable single men] (ph). You know. So I think he�s up running in the morning every single day. And (pause)

THERAPIST: Oh I see, yeah. Like he�s hitting the candy stores.

CLIENT: Yeah, all these women who are looking for guys. And I think he�s in much better shape that most men his age; he looks a lot younger than he is. You know. [00:49:05]

THERAPIST: Okay, okay. I see. (pause) Well listen (overlapping voices)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I guess I never had that � I mean I kind of knew that some of the stuff I had _

CLIENT: Probably for the same reason, it was almost just like uncomfortable, like saying it. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe all of this is in any way, like what am I going � how does that rub off on you? Like me wondering, how does that rub off on you in some way � that kind of thing? (pause) Yeah, how far does the apple fall from the tree? That might be the -

CLIENT: I don�t know. I don�t know. (chuckle) All right.

THERAPIST: All right, so next week, we�re on for the -

CLIENT: 6:10.

THERAPIST: 6:10.

CLIENT: [We moved it] (ph).

END TRANSCRIPT