TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Now, transportation services? Isn't that like the people that have the passes on the buses?

THERAPIST: Umm...

CLIENT: I guess you probably don't know.

THERAPIST: The people that have passes?

CLIENT: Like passes...

THERAPIST: No. If...

CLIENT: Like I have a coworker whose anxiety is such that she has an, an access pass that renews every month so she doesn't have to worry about making change and...

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: And she also has a bad, like really bad knee and is like really overweight.

THERAPIST: That might be. This is for...

CLIENT: And like it's the senior citizen's pass.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It's for, it's for a woman that has a hard time getting around so what they do is they offer, they offer services...

CLIENT: Covered by somebody?

THERAPIST: Yeah. They'll pick you up and drop you off.

CLIENT: Oh, like the ride?

THERAPIST: Yeah, like the ride. Let's just see... [00:01:05]

CLIENT: So my birthday's tomorrow.

THERAPIST: Oh. Happy Birthday.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: So you'll be... How old is it?

CLIENT: Twenty seven.

THERAPIST: Twenty seven. Okay.

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: Yeah. How are you feeling? Twenty seven.

CLIENT: I need a different job. I love the kids but they are so whiney. They cling at my shins and go, "Waah." Because they want me to pick them up or hug them or something. I just can't make them happy enough.

THERAPIST: Hmm. There's only so much of you to go around.

CLIENT: Because I can't hold them all at once yeah. So...

(PAUSE) [00:02:00]

CLIENT: So, yesterday some girl came in with my boss. And her name's Patricia. She used to work at the center and apparently she's applying for the position that I'm filling right now. And I told Stephanie that I would tell her in a few weeks if I liked working in that room and I would be permanent. Now I don't like working in that room and I don't want to be permanent but nobody asked me. And so they just bring this girl in without asking me. It kind of makes me feel like... I don't know. Like either like somebody said, "I don't want her in that classroom," or, "I don't want her in there," or she just decided for me. I don't know what.

THERAPIST: Hmm. [00:03:03]

CLIENT: But like Stacen who is the lead teacher in that classroom she always has to be right. Always. Like I cleaned some girl's shirt. Like they didn't put any bibs on the kids this morning. I cleaned some girl's shirt because she spilled cranberry juice on it. I said, "I think I'm going to need some boiling hot water." She goes... After I had already finished cleaning the shirt because it wasn't all the way clean. And she goes, "Hot water will set the stain." And I said, "No, no it doesn't. Not always." "Yeah. Hot water always sets the stain." And I'm like... Like I don't know what to say. Like didn't set that stain. I've cleaned plenty of shirts with boiling hot water. Fruit stains you use boiling hot water and protein stains, you use cold things. [00:04:05]

And like she just always has to be right. I wasn't going to go there with her but I spill plenty of shit on myself and I know how to get my clothes clean and when I was in eighth grade, I did my science project on stain removal. Not that I'm going to like go there with her with an attitude but like she has to be right about stupid shit like that. It's dumb.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And like yes, hot water will set a blood stain or a chocolate stain or a grass stain but it's not going to set a fruit stain.

THERAPIST: What was it like for you to have that kind of conflict with her?

CLIENT: It was just... She made me feel belittled and like dumb and like I started questioning myself.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: And then I had to go look it up on my computer.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: But like... [00:05:00]

THERAPIST: Uh huh. Yeah. Yeah, you know what I notice about you is that I think when you, sometimes when you feel like you... When you have a conflict and you feel like you're right, you sometimes get kind of worried that you're going to come across as a know-it-all or something like that. And you almost like take a step back and go, "I don't want to be perceived like that." And then you start... But what happens is interesting. It's almost like you start to question yourself. You start to...

CLIENT: Yeah, and I also like... It's a stupid thing to fight about. Like I'm doing a nice thing and cleaning a girl's shirt because you didn't put a bib on her. And excuse me. Am I supposed to put a bib on them? I'm supposed to take out the chairs, put out bibs, wash the kids' hands all before breakfast as soon as I'm in. Like the set up in the classroom isn't fair. Like I'm doing all the hard labor and all the interactions for the older toddlers. [00:06:03]

Lori's cooing with two sleeping infants and you're like washing your hands or I don't know what you're doing, sweeping the floor at like two inches a second. And I understand like she has a bad back and she can't lift that and she can't lift that but she just tells me, "You should do this now. You should do that now," and not like say it a nice way.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? And I feel like whatever happened to have the teacher that was previously there fail... Like, yeah, she was kind of not the brightest bulb but like I feel like I'm getting set up for that situation.

THERAPIST: To be the fall guy or...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...something like that?

CLIENT: Because something happened, somebody was... I mean, I don't know what happened or if she yelled at the kid in the wrong way. But like, at the end of the day, I'm yelling at them all the time. They can't stop climbing. They can't stop shoving each other. Like, I'm out of ideas. Like, you know... [00:07:00]

THERAPIST: What's going on... What's your sense of what's going on in the classroom? Why it's so kind of like...

CLIENT: They've just done it that way forever and I try and suggest changes and they don't listen.

THERAPIST: I see, yeah.

CLIENT: And like I try and say like, "Maybe I should change my diaper changing time if I, you know, I come in from break at two thirty and you want your diapers changed by three. Like if the kids are still eating, I can't. Like if you're going to keep feeding the kid, I can't change all the diapers." Like, you know... Or like they think I go too slow to change the diapers but like, if I did it at a different time or if somebody was there to wash the hands. You know? I actually use soap and warm water in the bathroom and I make sure the water isn't too hot, you know, and I make sure they dry their hands. Like, sorry I'm thorough. Like I feel like I get no support in that classroom and I'm doing the hard stuff. [00:08:01]

Besides oh, I have to make all these observations and leave the classroom for an hour while I can type them in a computer. Like... Like I feel like I'm being set up to fail.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like my... I can't even like say that. I don't even know how to say that to my director. Because she's going to say like... She gets... She has such a bad attitude, my director. "Um, can you give me like a specific example?" And like in the meantime, she doesn't support the lead teachers. She puts a note up on her door at twelve thirty that says, "It's my lunchtime. Get back to me in half and hour." And like meanwhile like we need coverage. We need to figure out what to do and that's what you need to help us with and she just... Even if you knock on her door, she just won't answer. [00:09:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, what's... How has it felt? What's it just been like with Stacen. How do you feel she feels about you? What do you...

CLIENT: I don't really know what she feels about me. Sometimes I feel like she's nice and she's okay. Sometimes I feel like she hates me. Like I don't understand it.

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What kind of things make you feel like... Like what kind of things... Why, why do you think she might hate you? What would be about you or what you do...

CLIENT: Because she just says like, she just says things. Like she always has to be right. I always have to be wrong. Like I'm not right for, you know, I can't make a good suggestion. You know? Anything.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So...

THERAPIST: She doesn't... Is it tend to get, tend to be problems when you guys disagree about something or...

CLIENT: And she says... You know... Yeah and she tells me how to do things all the time. And like I'm trying to do it my way and I'm trying to be okay about it. You know? Oh. I came in and I'm about to like come in and take a kid to wash hands. "Oh, you should probably put out the chairs first." Like why aren't the chairs set up when they come in like every other classroom? [00:10:09]

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Like she can't lift a chair?

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Like, I'm sorry. But her physical limitations are getting to be too much.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Like if you can't lift a four pound chair, maybe you need to be on disability.

THERAPIST: Yeah. So one thing is just that she has to...

CLIENT: She can't do any physical labor.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Like the older kids climb up onto the diaper table on from like a two step step ladder and the top, they stand on the top handle rung and then get onto the table. Either that or somebody will lift the child onto the table for her.

THERAPIST: She won't, she won't be able to lift?

CLIENT: She can't.

THERAPIST: So what...

CLIENT: So then I have to do mats. And I have to put out all the mats and then I have to wash all the kids up and check their diapers.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: And then I have to put the kids to bed, some of them, not all of them. You know? And then I have to clean up lunch. Like... [00:11:07]

THERAPIST: And that's...

CLIENT: I might as... I mean, like have you ever read the book, it's a teenage fiction or, you know, young adult fiction, the book Holes, where the kids who are in juve have to go to this camp where they dig because there's this legend about buried treasure so the kids have to dig holes.

THERAPIST: I've heard about that it but I don't know.

CLIENT: It would probably be easier. Like, I mean, like maybe not really but...

THERAPIST: But you mean like how much you end up having to do...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...because she's physically limited and all that or she's saying she's physically limited.

CLIENT: And Lori's just lazy.

THERAPIST: And she's just lazy, yeah.

CLIENT: Or like hogs the babies and just takes the easy work.

THERAPIST: She does, yeah.

CLIENT: Like warm up a bottle every two hours.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And like rock a chair.

THERAPIST: I see, yeah, yeah. And then she's also kind of difficult in the sense of she wants to have things done her way. If there's any kind of...

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:12:01]

THERAPIST: There's no negotiating with her and stuff.

CLIENT: Yeah. And like I try and make suggestions but like they like have their own private conversations.

THERAPIST: Who? Who's they?

CLIENT: Lori and Stacen.

THERAPIST: Okay. Lori and Stacen.

CLIENT: And like, and like I get shot down all the time when I make suggestions that like somebody switch diaper times with me. If I'm coming back last from break, why am I doing afternoon diapers? Like I know it sounds really petty and trivial but like...

THERAPIST: No, no.

CLIENT: These are all things that would make the classroom work better.

THERAPIST: Yeah. No, no. You're right. And I guess what you're sort of saying though is that when you bring these things up they're like, "No. Don't want to hear about it. Do it our way."

CLIENT: Right. Because Audrey always did it their way because she didn't stick up for herself.

THERAPIST: Mmm. Yeah. And when you do stick up for yourself it's kind of like... What ends up happening?

CLIENT: I mean, I haven't. I mean... Not only am I scared to but what's the point? Like nothing changes.

THERAPIST: Mmm. [00:13:05]

CLIENT: You know and it's not like anybody's going to discipline the lead teachers. Nobody does.

THERAPIST: You don't feel like they've got your back there?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like...

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I just really want a different job but I don't know what I want to do with my life. Like I was thinking today like I could just be a waitress. Like... Or like work full time at a grocery store or like be a concierge. I'd be on my feet all day but at least I would be helping people and I'd probably make more money and I wouldn't have to wipe any more butts. [00:13:57]

THERAPIST: Hmm. But you're also distraught that you're getting kind of improperly treated and you feel like you can't, you don't even know if it's... It kind of sounds like you feel like it's futile to...

CLIENT: I feel like it's normal. Like I know it's wrong but like that's been the normal in that classroom for so long.

THERAPIST: Mm hmm.

CLIENT: Like...

THERAPIST: It's their way or the highway and they try to... I mean, do you feel like they, they're a bit of a, they're kind of a bullying thing?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay. Huh. Do you feel like they're threatened by you in any way? I mean...

CLIENT: I mean, I tease Stacen. Like, "Oh Stacen. I want you job." Like if I run the stroller into her ankle, she's like, "Oww! Crystal." And I'm like, "Trying to kill you Stacen. I want your job." Like, I don't want her job.

THERAPIST: Is there some tension you think though around that?

CLIENT: I don't know. Today I was talking about...

THERAPIST: Huh. [00:15:03]

CLIENT: ...how I didn't take my medicine and I was teasing my friend because she was in such a good mood about her Prozac and she must have like, you know, she was all happy this morning. And Stacen goes like, "Oh, you shouldn't talk about that. People will just start gossipping about you. You know?" And basically she was trying to tell me that I shouldn't talk about Prozac or, you know, the medicine that I'm on because people will just start gossipping about me and if I'm having a bad day it's because I didn't take my, it'll be because I didn't take my medicine. And like I didn't know what to say to that. Like, I've been on it for ten years. Like I've come to terms with it and like the only way we're going to get over this stigma of mental illness and depression is if we talk about it.

THERAPIST: Hmm. [00:15:53]

CLIENT: You know? Like but I didn't know what to say. So I'm like, "Okay. Like..." And Chrissie was upset that I had, you know, called her out on her Prozac but... And I apologized and but like... But not because it was me but because afterwards, you know, her coworker who I used to work with, Kat, you know, was like, "Oh, you're just hopped up on Prozac," you know, whatever. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But like you don't get hopped up on Prozac. It's not Xanax. But like, it's my choice whether I talk about it or not.

THERAPIST: Yeah, you sound like it's comfortable for you to share whatever. You don't care...

CLIENT: Like...

THERAPIST: I guess, I also hear it as somewhat critical.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It wasn't like, "Hey, you might want to think about this or that." It's more... There was kind of an air of criticism about it.

CLIENT: Or like perhaps she's going to do it. Like Lori and Stacen are like, "Oh, you know, we wouldn't talk about it but, you know, some other people might, you know?" But like, yeah right.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like you're forty years old and you're not on pills are you're going to talk about me for it because I've been on my pills since you were in high school. Like, whatever. [00:17:09]

THERAPIST: I see, yeah.

CLIENT: Or like... (PAUSE) But like she was working at that center when I was in high school, probably working at that center when I started my medication and so like go fuck yourself. Like...

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. Do they get... I mean, I was thinking it kind of sounds like it's very territorial, like the towards one's classroom like they feel very territorial about it and it's theirs and they don't want when somebody else new comes in...

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. They get mad if I send the sippy cups to the kitchen.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And like, it's like dumb. Do you really want your kid drinking out of the sippy cup that somebody else drank out of that morning? Do you really want mold growing in your sippy cup? Do you want your child drinking out of mold growing from a sippy cup? Let me tell you doc, when you have kids, send in your own sippy cups. [00:18:07]

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) Don't trust theirs.

CLIENT: And when you have kids and you bring in bottles, bring them home at night and wash them. Because they're probably getting rinsed out with lukewarm water and dish soap. And their bottles probably taste like Joy.

THERAPIST: Wow. I see. Well, yeah. I'm guessing that you kind of, you're kind of a threat to them in some way. And, I mean, you know, not in this conscious way that they, you know, but it's in some sort of subtle way that they feel like, "Hey, we've got somebody new here." They want to keep it their old way, don't want to have to change their ways, feel kind of threatened by somebody coming in having new ideas and everything. I think for you, you know, you're there because you have an interest in working there, making things, you know, function in a way that you're comfortable with, that you think is right. You're trying to put your stamp on the, on a classroom too. (LAUGHTER) It's not just her classroom. It's yours too. [00:19:03]

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, like I told my director that I'd be more comfortable or more effective in a full time classroom. But my director knows that there's only certain classrooms that I'd work in and only certain people that I'd work with and when I think about it, there's only three people I'd want to work with and that's out of like fifteen staff. You know? Maybe four. Like, you know. I wouldn't work in Kat's classroom unless they fired Kat and left me with Tracy (ph) and Chrissie but Chrissie wants to move to preschool. So I wouldn't work in a middle classroom because that, even though the kids are the calmest, even though we have a climbing epidemic, that classroom's a shit show. I would work with Margaret and Florence even though Florence's kind of a pain in the butt, she's awesome. Margaret's amazing. And the other Margaret is like a bully and a grouch and old. And then so I'd work with Jessica. [00:20:00]

I'd work with Margaret and Florence and I'd work with Tracy but not with, but not with Kat. So like... It's not like I'm trying to be like a snob or an elitist. It's just like no matter what I do... I try and have discussions with them and like...

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. No, it's a very difficult people to work with.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Except for, with the exception of a few.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Uh huh. Yeah.

CLIENT: You know...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...and I'd work with Phaly (ph) but her assistant teacher isn't going anywhere. (SIGH)

THERAPIST: Yeah and you were, are you now lead teacher certified?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Oh. Do they know that? Does Stacen know that?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I mean, like I tell Stacen I want her job just to be silly but like I don't want her job. Like but if I did have her job, I'd probably do it pretty well. [00:21:01]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I imagine that's some of the tension there between the, between the two that's there for her.

CLIENT: And like Stacen claims to have OCD but like her classroom is filthy.

THERAPIST: What's her background? What's...

CLIENT: She has a masters degree in education.

THERAPIST: She does.

CLIENT: And I don't know if it's early education or elementary education or what. But like she should be doing something different. She has a masters. She's making thirteen dollars an hour. Like she should be working for the state like, or doing curriculum planning even though she sucks at that. (PAUSE) You know? And I guess that's part of like her deal. But like about a year ago she started hanging out with Jessica. And Jessica's kind of negative and gossipy. But I think... But Jessica can also be really generous and kind. And I think just the negative has worn off on, on Stacen. [00:22:09]

THERAPIST: What does she tend to be negative about?

CLIENT: Stacen?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Jessica.

THERAPIST: Jessica's a negative... She's negative about the center or...

CLIENT: She can just... About the center and about, you know, she makes fun of people and she gossips about people and she's catty. But she can also be funny and nice and warm. I guess. But they go on... Drea and Jessica and Stacen all go on break together and I'm sure they just, it's just a bitch fest. They just piss and moan about everything.

THERAPIST: And Stacen's about forty, you say?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And then she's been there for a while now. [00:22:59]

CLIENT: Yeah. She's been there for at least ten years. Or nine years. She got a little card that was her nine year... So it must be nine and a half or ten now.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Sounds like a very complicated political place.

CLIENT: I mean, maybe she's jealous. I mean, like she started acting a lot different when her brother moved out of the house and bought a new house. And so maybe she's jealous about that or maybe she's jealous of me because I'm under thirty and getting married. Like I don't know.

THERAPIST: Is she married?

CLIENT: No. She lives with her mother.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Like you pay two hundred dollars of rent, you know, rent, not rent but like helping with expenses.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: And, and like I'm sure like she helps to take care of her mom. I don't know how old her mom is, in her seventies, I think. But like... [00:24:03]

THERAPIST: Racial background?

CLIENT: She's white.

THERAPIST: She's white, yeah. Is the from that neighborhood.

CLIENT: She's from, I forget the name. (PAUSE) I don't know. I just know that the mayor lives there.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I don't know anything else about it.

THERAPIST: Okay, yeah. Yeah, okay.

CLIENT: You know? And...

THERAPIST: Well, yeah. There's a lot (LAUGHTER) a lot going on between, yeah, in that classroom among you being... Because you've been in there how long now?

CLIENT: Three weeks.

THERAPIST: Three weeks.

CLIENT: For Audrey, yeah.

THERAPIST: (SIGH) Yeah. (PAUSE) And she's had that classroom for...

CLIENT: Ten years.

THERAPIST: ...nine plus years. [00:25:01]

CLIENT: I'm not trying to take her job.

THERAPIST: She feels that... She must feel that in some way. Or, you know, whatever, threatened.

CLIENT: Please.

THERAPIST: Something like that.

CLIENT: My man is going to get a good job and I'm going to stay home and have kids and be a stay at home mom. That's what I really... Like not what I really want but that would just be the easiest for me. And then my kids would be five and I would have nothing to do with my life. But like at least, sometimes I feel like I just want a kid so I don't have to figure out my life. And I know that's like a stupid reason to have a kid but people have done stupider.

THERAPIST: Well, there's a lot of people that feel like that's, that's what their... You know? That's what they feel most comfortable in.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:25:57]

THERAPIST: Feel they can do that. That's good for them. That's good for them. I mean, one thing about you that's kind of interesting is that you don't sound too intimidated by the task of parenting. I mean, maybe I... We haven't really talked...

CLIENT: I mean, I am a little bit but like I'm mostly intimidated by... Like if I have a kid who's normal and function like normal and like functioning like normal functioning and stuff ? if I have a kid with special needs, it would be a lot more intimidating, a lot harder. But...

THERAPIST: Well just to say that, you know, a lot of people, a lot of people find parenting, you know, like a frightening prospect in a way that you don't. But, you know... And they might feel more like, "Okay, I'm going to go to some job and figure out what I want to do or whatever," and that's not as intimidating as it feels like it is to you.

CLIENT: No. [00:27:01]

THERAPIST: I think with parenting, for you it's, it's not... I mean, yeah, I'm sure it's intimidating in some level but it doesn't really... You know? It sounds like you feel some level of confidence.

CLIENT: Just keep them occupied and put them to bed at the end of the day.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:27:17)

CLIENT: How hard can it be? (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Well and you know...

CLIENT: I mean, I know it's going to be hard but like I am up for the challenge.

THERAPIST: Yeah and I think too that you have a certain confidence in the way that you do things on your own. I think what you tend to struggle with is when you feel like somebody is challenging you or somebody is intimidating you in some way. I think it brings up a lot for you. You often find yourself kind of going, "Do I... How much do I stand up for myself?" And it feels kind of scary too and, and, you know?" It brings up, it brings up a lot in that area. You know? [00:28:00]

CLIENT: I don't know what you're talking about. Sometimes you lose me. Sometimes it starts to sound like, "Womp, womp, womp, womp, womp."

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well... (SIGH) Yeah, how do I put it? Well maybe I should have stopped when I said there's, there's... When you find yourself in conflict with people...

CLIENT: I shut down.

THERAPIST: ...you shut down. You seem more confident when you're just doing things on your own.

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm not good at fighting people.

THERAPIST: You're not good at fighting with people, yeah.

CLIENT: I fought with my sister and I fought, I didn't fight fight, but I had enough conflicts in middle school. I was just done by the time I got to high school. Like, I'm not going to fight with you. I'm not going to try and convince you that I'm right because I know I'm right and whatever. Like you can just go around being loud and wrong. Fine. [00:29:05]

THERAPIST: You had enough, you had enough conflict in middle school?

CLIENT: People picked on me a lot. I was quick to tell people that they were wrong or being stupid or something. I guess a lot of people like...

THERAPIST: Oh, huh.

CLIENT: I don't know. So like...

THERAPIST: What? So they would pick on you for calling people out for being...

CLIENT: Yeah, for not being right or for being dumb or... I don't know. People would make fun of me for like not making the A squad softball team as an eighth grader. Like... I don't know. Like I just got tired of it. You know? It didn't get me anywhere. It didn't win me any friends. Nobody ever said, "Oh, you're right." So what's the point? [00:30:05]

THERAPIST: That's exactly what you were talking about.

CLIENT: Go, go, go ahead and pour cold water on that, on that cranberry juice stain. It's not going to come out.

THERAPIST: It's the same, it's the same conflict you're seeing right?

CLIENT: Yeah, like I know I'm right. I'm going to get the stains out of my shirt. You're just going to look like a slob.

THERAPIST: And people would find it... How would people react to it back in middle school?

CLIENT: I don't know. They thought I was like too testy or something.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Or like too... I don't know. Like emotional. I had a girl in seventh grade write in my yearbook in red sharpie, "You just need to chill out," or something like that. Like and it was like big letters. It wasn't like a cute little note.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: It was like, yeah. She was a bitch though. And I always thought so and people tried to like her and tried to be nice to her because she was like a skinny popular little rich Jewish girl and I never liked her. She was always kind of a bitch. [00:31:05]

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's kind of like you have that, you have that sensibility about yourself now, about being, you know, pointing things out. I mean, it's exactly what you're describing with Stacen.

CLIENT: Yeah, like I'm never going to say to her like, "You're jealous of me because I'm getting married and we're going to start a family and you're living with your mother." I'm not going to say that to her. Like I'm probably right or, "You want things always done your way because you had this classroom for nine years and you can't change anything in your life. But like your system sucks." Just like at the jewelry store. I was set up to fail because your system sucks.

(PAUSE) [00:32:00]

THERAPIST: Because people will end up acting kind of defensively when you point these things out often. Is that the case?

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, like, I'm not trying to be rude or anything or like, I'm not going to be like, "Oh Stacen. You still live with your mother." But like, you know, maybe, maybe I should do the morning diapers instead of the afternoon diapers. But like Lori doesn't want it that way. What's the point of you changing diapers if you're coming in at nine fifteen? Three diapers have already been changed because kids have already shit themselves. The person who changed their diapers should just do the next six.

(PAUSE) [00:32:59]

CLIENT: And it's not fair. I mean, like maybe it should rotate. Maybe the person who does morning diapers one day should do morning diapers the, you know, afternoon diapers the next day. And I understand Audrey was terrible at the computer and she couldn't really do any of the observations and they all, you know, they were having trouble getting them all done and they were taking time out from the classroom. So all the diapers had to get done before three. But like how am I supposed to get diapers before three? Like, yes I'm slow at diapers. But like... Sorry.

THERAPIST: But it's actually... You're describing having a definite opinion about things and you're kind of saying you don't know how to convey it in a way that people won't act defensively or hostiley (ph) towards you.

CLIENT: But like I don't talk to people that way. Like my boss was like, "Oh well. Maybe you should try not saying it like, ‘This is wrong. You need to fix it this way.'" And I'm like, "I don't talk to people that way. Did somebody tell you I said that?" [00:34:00]

And like I started crying because I thought that somebody had said I talked and I make it a point not to offend people and not to be a bully and like I'm not a bully. You know?

THERAPIST: People see you... You're worried that people see you as a bully?

CLIENT: I mean, not really but like I'm worried that people like people are like saying I'm a bully without like actually thinking about like... You know? Like... I'm sorry but I'm going to send those sippy cups to the kitchen if they have mold in them.

THERAPIST: Yeah, well somehow strong opinion gets kind of linked up then with...

CLIENT: With an attitude.

THERAPIST: ...with an attitude, yeah.

CLIENT: Like, that's why I just want to work with Margaret and Florence because they're comfortable with strong opinions.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah. Margaret is very opinionated and some people think she's a bully. She's not. She just has to keep Florence in check or else Florence will just focus on two kids at one time and they'll never get anything done. You know? [00:35:07]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I... You know what I see in you is that you have a directness about you. You have a capacity for directness. That's how I put it. And I think a lot of people might find it a little bit... What I would guess is that people, unless they're open, are going to find it a little bit jarring or something.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I don't know if it's just me or if like you really believe in astrology like all of my different signs are in Sagittarius and so like I'm very direct. And like I don't... Like what's the point of like sugar coating it? That's like lying. I don't like lying. You know?

THERAPIST: No, that's a very...

CLIENT: And so like...

THERAPIST: ...good attribute. (LAUGHTER) [00:35:57]

CLIENT: And if people aren't direct with me... Instead of saying, "You should do this now. You should do this now," I'd rather them say, "This is what we do. This is what we need you to do and like..." But I really, I have a problem with the fact that I'm doing all the manual labor in your classroom. Like I might as well be giving birth every day.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. And it's... And so it becomes... It must be so tricky for you when you feel you have to kind of suppress that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because it's suppressing who you are in some way. It's suppressing who you like to be and how you feel comfortable in yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah. But like basically my review said that I have to think about what I say and watch people's reactions. So basically my review told me I'm too direct. And like, I don't know what happened but like I had this confrontation with the substitute who was asking me to do something ridiculous and I told her that I thought it sounded... Like she wanted me to take the kids to the playroom. She goes back and cleans the classroom, take the kids back to the classroom, have them do some cleaning in the classroom, then take them back to the classroom. [00:37:05]

I said, "That sounds like a lot of transitions for if we just clean up in ten minutes." And she was like, "What's wrong with it? I've been doing it this way for the past week." I was like, "Well, in our trainings, they told us not to have them have as many transitions, you know, to have as few transitions as possible. And then she thought I was trying to like hold my trainings over her and my educations over her. I don't know. I talked to Sandra about it but then it came up in my review with... I don't know if they were actually talking about what happened with Lisa. But they were talking about something like that in my review with Sandra. I mean, my review with Stephanie and so like I don't know if Sandra ever told Stephanie that I addressed it with her, with Sandra. And there's a rumor going around that I told Sandra about Charlotte looking for a different job and applying at Jumpstart. Not Jumpstart, Headstart. Which I didn't do. [00:38:05]

And the other person who was in the room that day was Lisa. I hate Lisa. Like she's a nut job. She can switch from being angry from thinking something's funny and a joke to being angry about something like that. (FINGER SNAP) Like I think she might be bipolar. You know? She'll be like, "You know? Seriously. Back in my day, we respected our elders. Seriously." And then she'll just switch and be like really actually angry about the fact that somebody like was glib with her or gave like her like lip as a joke. Like she came in and was like, "Oh, can I have a stack of paper towels?" And Audrey said, "Oh, it'll cost you five dollars." And she's... I don't know. Like... (SIGH) The other thing about Lisa is... It's really confusing to me and I don't know how to ask her about it and maybe I just shouldn't... I just shouldn't. But like she has really light skin and really curly hair but she identifies as African American.

THERAPIST: Mm hmm. [00:39:07]

CLIENT: And I never knew she was African American until somebody said, "You know, Lisa, she's African American." And I'm like, "I know Lisa is like old and she has curly hair but I think she's white." But like I found out later that like she identifies as African American and I don't know if her parents are both black or if one's white. And I know it's none of my business but like it's so confusing to me that she feels so strongly about... I guess she must feel the same way but like, or feel hurt in so many different levels because if she was really light skinned maybe she was rejected from her family or something.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: You're curious about her though.

CLIENT: I am but like she's also, I think she also hates me because of what happened in preschool.

THERAPIST: What happened in preschool? [00:40:01]

CLIENT: That thing about taking the kids down to the... You know? And I told her I'm not trying to... You know? She was like, "Don't hold your education over me." I'm like, "Lisa. That's not what I'm saying."

THERAPIST: Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: "Like I'm just saying like we can go in ten minutes when it's our time."

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: "Like I'm not trying to like say that I'm smarter than you."

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: "I'm not trying to say that your way is wrong. I'm just saying that way sounds like a lot of transitions and maybe we should just wait."

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I see. I see.

CLIENT: So then...

THERAPIST: And then you feel terrible.

CLIENT: I feel terrible. I'm not trying to like say that I'm more educated than everybody. Like yes I am more educated than everybody. But like it hasn't gotten me anywhere. I'm still working with you guys.

THERAPIST: Oh. Oh, yeah.

CLIENT: It's not like...

THERAPIST: That must be so hard for you because...

CLIENT: ...I have a PhD or anything.

THERAPIST: Well I'm thinking about how hard it is because like, in a way... [00:40:55]

CLIENT: Like I really need people to like... I really need smart people around me to stimulate me and stimulate my mind and like not talk to me about poopy diapers and like talk to me about why X, Y, Z is important. But when I try to talk to that about people, they think I'm being like a snob or trying to hold my education over them or...

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: This woman like asked for my opinion about what I thought and I told her what I thought and it wasn't what she wanted to hear and so she got angry. Like...

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: I'm sorry. Like, you asked my opinion. If you ask me how your pants look on you, I'm going to tell you not to wear front pleats. Like...

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: That happened, that happened to me once. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Well here's what I'm thinking about you is that, you know, a couple things. One, you know, my impression of you is that you're probably always very talented and gifted and in certain regards around, around like how much information you knew and how able you were to absorb facts and things. [00:42:03]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And that you also had a definite impression and opinion about, and could see and look for things that were going wrong or things that were right or wrong and kind of interest you. I don't know.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And it seems to me you wanted to find a way to really be that kind of person but it always made you feel alienated and kind of rejected by peers.

CLIENT: Right. And like, I have a friend who... She and I went to the same middle school and for some reason at my middle school, it was like cool to be apathetic and hate school and do bad in school. It was like elite private school. Like we're not talking about six thousand dollar a year Catholic school. We're talking about like the price of in state tuition private school, private school.

THERAPIST: Oh, interesting. Yeah. [00:43:01]

CLIENT: And like, it was like cool to be like, "Oh, I don't care about school. Oh, I have..." you know, "I didn't do my homework last night."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like...

THERAPIST: So it led to a lot of rejection for you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: A lot of alienation, rejection, that you were very interested in this and other kids weren't and it made... I was imagining too it might make kids feel insecure, not good and so they lash back at you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: When, I guess, what I hear in the spirit of it is you were more in the spirit not necessarily knocking kids down around. More that you just had an opinion, you were interested, you were curious, you had, you would just say what was on your mind.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You'd be direct about it.

CLIENT: And like sometimes it feels like I hurt people because it comes out like verbal diarrhea.

THERAPIST: Well, what if it does hurt people once in a while?

CLIENT: I don't want to hurt people's feelings because I want friends.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. [00:44:01]

CLIENT: But like I can't... I mean, what I really like with my friend Chrissie drove me here today is that like she can handle me and handle arguing with me. But like it's not like we're fighting. It's like... I'm like... She's like, "I don't want to have a cell phone anymore." I'm like, "I think that's irresponsible and unadult of you like to not have a cell phone. And what are you going to do when you need to call out sick? And how are you going to get a new job? Like..." And she can handle that. Like...

THERAPIST: Yeah. (LAUGHTER) You don't mean it... You're not trying to be...

CLIENT: I like not trying to be mean.

THERAPIST: ...harsh or critical. Yeah.

CLIENT: But I'm just like, "Think about it."

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yes, yes, yeah.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And she can handle that and I guess she's really into astrology. She says her favorite people argue with her, Sagittarius.

THERAPIST: Yeah, some people love it. Some people love the directness.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And feel like, "God, thank God. Somebody's telling me what they really think and feel."

CLIENT: Yeah

THERAPIST: As opposed to sugar coating it or beating around the bush or something.

CLIENT: Right. Yeah. And like... [00:45:01]

THERAPIST: But what I hear what you do Crystal is you, when you start to feel like it's going to cause somebody not to like you or cause some kind of rift or kind of conflict, I think you tend to kind of want to retreat from that position and go to a position where you're like, "I'm not, I'm not hurting anybody's feelings." And almost, it (inaudible at 00:45:27) to this kind of phenomenon where you question yourself. You kind of go, "Maybe I'm not that..." It's like almost...

CLIENT: Maybe I'm not that smart.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It's almost, it's almost the doing the opposite from what you really feel in some way to protect something, protect some sort of... Protect them, protect you from feeling bad. You know?

CLIENT: Yeah. Because I don't want to be perceived as bossy or mean. I just... Like what's the point of not being direct? Like...

THERAPIST: Yeah, I know that people...

CLIENT: I don't understand. [00:46:01]

THERAPIST: People interpret that as bossy and mean. That's right. People do. People do. Absolutely. People... Even though that's not your intent. Yes.

CLIENT: And like I make a point...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...especially to parents to tell them the truth and be direct but be very choice with my words and like... (PAUSE) But like the parents really like that about me. I'm like, "How was their day?" I'm like, "Well, she's a grumpy pants and she climbs on everything." And, you know, some people are like, "Oh, she had a great day. She, you know, colored and she played outside and like..." That's great that. I wish somebody could be in my team like that. Like we tell them the good things that she did and I'm going to tell you that like, you need to glue your kid's feet to the floor. Like, you know? I don't know. [00:47:05]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Or like I've told parents who have kids who climb a lot like, "Bring them to the Gymboree or to the rock climbing gym or to the playground or something so that they can learn how to do that and, you know, understand their body in that way and I don't have to deal with peeling them off the furniture. And you don't have to deal with peeling them off the furniture." You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah, they...

CLIENT: Just give them an outlet for it. Like the kids like... It's annoying and bad but they never use the playground. Like, "It's too cold today to go outside." And the philosophy in the other classroom is there's no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothes. That's Margaret (inaudible at 00:47:55] like, if you think I'm direct, this woman is like super direct. [00:48:07]

THERAPIST: Yeah and I think the things is too that it's not when you're... When you say these things, it's not in order to be... I don't sense it's in order to be right or to show that you're right. Its more that, it's more of just conveying what you're seeing. It's more to just say what you see.

CLIENT: Right. So my roommate when I was... Okay. I hated my roommate. She was annoying. She had this one boyfriend was hanging around. He stayed over one night. I said it was okay. And he woke up and he was going to his job at some bank. She was like, "Oh, doesn't my boyfriend look handsome? Look at his outfit." I'm like, "Mmm. Yeah, okay." "Say he looks handsome." I'm like, "Front pleats?"

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: And she was so mad at me. And I'm like, "Well don't pressure me into telling me, me telling you your opinion when you know, you know like..."

THERAPIST: It's like you're sort of saying, "I don't want to be that person that just...

CLIENT: I can't tell a lie. (LAUGHTER) [00:48:59]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. And you don't want to be that person. I mean, I think, I think you got this thing where you're smart and direct and that's coming to come across as hard for people to handle.

CLIENT: Sometimes I come across as a bitch.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean, like...

THERAPIST: Yeah, that's... For some people.

CLIENT: Apparently I'm the Hillary Clinton of the (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Yes, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Or maybe Joe Biden.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like I freaking love Joe Biden. He's so hilarious.

THERAPIST: Yeah, he says what he...

CLIENT: And you never wonder what Joe Biden is thinking. So...

THERAPIST: No. Rubs people the wrong way but the guy's a... (LAUGHTER) He's vice president, senator for a long time.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know. He... I think it's a good comparison.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think though the different for you is that when you do it, it rubs people the wrong way, you react sometimes with a lot of shame and guilt and it turns you into kind of a almost doing the opposite, like a shrinking violet.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It closes you up. It quiets you. It makes you second guess yourself. [00:50:03]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It goes against your nature, makes you go against your nature.

CLIENT: Yeah. So I need to be more like Joe Biden. Yeah. Because I'm not getting the VP nod anytime soon unless I...

THERAPIST: Unless you start... Yeah.

CLIENT: Unless I start sticking up for myself.

THERAPIST: That's true, yeah. They tend to be leaders. (LAUGHTER) Well, speaking of leadership (inaudible at 00:50:35) you don't want to be... Interesting.

CLIENT: I don't want to be lead teacher. I just want like to be nanny for like...

THERAPIST: I, I gotta say though. I...

CLIENT: ...a three year old and a one year old.

THERAPIST: That's maybe part of what's going on about it too is that some part of you does and why not? You think... You've had your education. You've been there for a while. You're certified to be a lead teacher. You think you could do a better job. I mean, what's wrong with that?

CLIENT: Their classroom is disgusting. [00:50:57]

THERAPIST: She's, she's been there for nine and a half years. You sort of see you ? phoning it in and not working particularly hard at things.

CLIENT: It's not... I mean, she works hard but like... Okay. No she doesn't work hard. Like they stretch them so thin.

THERAPIST: Mm hmm.

CLIENT: They have to do curriculum and they have to do newsletters and they have to show that they've done this and they have to... And then they have to do all of these observations like that are ridiculous.

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: Every four months, no four times a year, every three months you get a progress report. I think that's a lot for an infant. Like when really you should just be getting an update every day or every week. [00:52:01]

THERAPIST: Yeah, all for very little day, yeah. Huh. Yeah, the way they do pay you is they let you keep your job forever.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And they don't make you change or... (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: Right, they don't make you change.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I, and I know that there are certain people that they should fire but they won't because... I know if they fired Kat, she would claim that she was fired because of racial reasons.

THERAPIST: Hmm. Okay. Next week, new place.

CLIENT: New place.

CLIENT: Did you give me the card?

THERAPIST: Yeah, check to make sure you got it.

CLIENT: But, if I wake up a multi-millionaire tomorrow, I'm not sure if I'm going to make it to therapy next week.

THERAPIST: Because you're playing Power Ball? [00:53:00]

CLIENT: I'm playing Power Ball. My plan is to wake up a multi-millionaire on my birthday.

CLIENT: Okay.

END TRANSCRIPT