TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Taking your chances?

CLIENT: Not today. (pause) Looking for spies.

THERAPIST: What's that?

CLIENT: (laughter)

THERAPIST: What did you say?

CLIENT: Looking for spies.

THERAPIST: Looking for spies? (laughs) Okay...

CLIENT: My sister's back for school break and she brought her boyfriend from Rome and so my parents, my family and I discussed about she wants us to meet this guy and I don't know. I should (inaudible); I said basically "if you want to invite me to like a dinner or something that would be good." When the time came around I didn't really want to go, didn't want to face this (pause) pseudo without like a very established occupation or therapist and I felt like really embarrassed. In other words in some way I felt like I'd be handicapping...that's not what I want to say but what I want to say is in some way it's sort of a comparison to me meeting this guy for my sister. [00:01:33] On a more official level I wanted to establish a superior relationship or like a...you know? I wasn't gone be the (inaudible) (laughs).

THERAPIST: Do you think you might get looked down upon by the guy?

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm not concerned about what he thinks so much as how the relationship becomes established. Like I'm not concerned with how he judges me, I'm concerned with how the work (inaudible) goes and how it would set a foundation for future interactions.

THERAPIST: I see. Kind of like what dynamic would be set up just by where you are right now and where he is?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: How old is your sister by the way?

CLIENT: She's 21 now, just turned 21 on Valentine's Day.

THERAPIST: And she's in school in Rome?

CLIENT: In Capilano. Capilano in Vancouver.

THERAPIST: Okay, I understand. And her boyfriend is with her at school?

CLIENT: Well he just moved here from Rome so I don't know what he's doing but he's moving to Vancouver. I don't think he has a job, I don't know. Yeah I also told you I've been using my brother's car and my brother came back from college so he should have his car so I have to give the car to him but I don't want to meet the family. [00:03:24] I was also wrestling with this because I was like going to a church event with people my own age so like a Catholic western, we had a movie night, so I was at that and right after that I (inaudible) to the dinner (inaudible) which is like a farm place, they grow their own food, it's a really good restaurant. But I was aware of a couple things, I was aware I didn't want to go because of like personal developments that feel like interacting with my family and also I met with this sort of...what I (inaudible) past last night, I won't say that but like a compulsive...I wouldn't go out to eat. For lent I've given up going out to eat during the week but I went out to eat Friday night at an Indian place, so I decided on Sunday I just wouldn't go out to eat. [00:04:40] So that makes it two...so I didn't go but I had to get the car back to my brother so I took it out in (inaudible) and I went home and was going to have him drive me home but while I was there my sister and her boyfriend came home so I decided just to stay but...it went okay. I wasn't terribly impressed with the guy, I mean I guess there's a little language barrier but he, he's good looking but he's not terribly polite and this politeness doesn't really require language. I suspect she's more interested in him than he is in her or he's...got intimidated at the last dinner I missed.

THERAPIST: You found him impolite then?

CLIENT: Yeah, not rude but not much excited.

THERAPIST: Uh huh. Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah especially for someone whose five years older than her he...I don't know. He wasn't effective at communicating with everyone. [00:06:16] He sort of you know, (inaudible) with her.

THERAPIST: Okay, yeah.

CLIENT: Which I haven't met a nice (inaudible), may or may not be like that, may not be unusual.

THERAPIST: He was kind of sticking close to her in terms of?

CLIENT: It was only an hour but in terms of conversation...

THERAPIST: Yeah, okay. (pause) Did you feel like he was bringing up some sort of feelings about what your station in life is now? Was that it?

CLIENT: I mean I had a plan in mind but (clears throat)...(laughs) not especially, it comes to mind but it's nothing groundbreaking. What I've had sort of folding with these...aside from what I told you, that I had hoped to talk about was sort of opposition in relationships that I've been feeling. [00:07:41] (pause)

THERAPIST: What have you noticed? Opposition?

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Well I think I either care about someone very much or the relationship is what it feels like...but if I care about someone the relationship seems to go sour.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: It's frustrating. I feel like I defer to much or it doesn't work and I'm wondering why that is or whether it needs to be that way. (pause) [00:09:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah it seems like a (background noise)...it's almost like you lost steam as you were telling me that.

CLIENT: I'm wondering mainly about the occupation thing is important. I feel like I have a plan that I have to follow through with but also I put off doing whatever is important always and stick to much easier, more changeable tasks, doing laundry or going to the grocery store. You know I have a plan to...yeah I don't even want to talk about it cause I don't want to jinx it but I know what I want to do, I know what would be positive to do but when it comes down to it, I don't know, it's easier to jack off or get a lunch or fool around with friends at Cambridge, it's easier.

THERAPIST: I wonder if it's anything like the whole thing "if I get to interested in it, it's going to sour?"

CLIENT: I wonder. Probably, like it's a risky prospect. I don't just casually apply, I don't get these people that like send out a hundred applications, I just, if I want to work somewhere, I want to do something then I do that. So with a job, if I want to get the job I work at it, there's a chance I might not be accepted or might be for not. So yeah that's probably part of it, yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean he goes to Birmingham, kind of have that feeling...in kind of a...once you, maybe it's making too much out of it, I was thinking in some way you got Birmingham and then it just didn't hold the allure...maybe I'm...What I recall you saying last time was there was kind of a turn where it would be disappointing, there was a lot of excitement built up and then you were kind of concerned about it actually going sour in some way.

CLIENT: Absolutely I was. [00:11:23] Yeah I don't permit myself to think otherwise.

THERAPIST: It seems to, what seems to maybe tie a bit together is you kind of felt Lawrenceville had that quality and it seemed to me like going to Lawrenceville held when you went to Lawrenceville, it sounded like you were describing in a way that you had a lot of hope for it being something really positive, really meaningful to you and you found it to be some sort of meritocracy that didn't really fulfill you in the way that...it was kind of...

CLIENT: It wasn't a meritocracy.

THERAPIST: It wasn't a meritocracy. It was more like a (pause) it held hope of being a meritocracy but actually wasn't in some ways.

CLIENT: Absolutely yeah. It was sort of an incubator of privilege.

THERAPIST: Okay, okay. Incubator of privilege...

CLIENT: In a lot of ways the school...seems like you might still...

THERAPIST: No, no, no. That's not...

CLIENT: It was connected, yes. It was, I don't know if that's something...yeah maybe I internalize that, I don't know. I haven't tried at anything for a while so...(laughs) so I don't know. Or anything, any sustained commitment. [00:13:12]

THERAPIST: Well I guess I do have one other thing to say is that I think he felt like there was something that you didn't get from your family, maybe from your mother and your father in ways that you've kind of...you can't elaborate in here but you felt like the hope you were going to get from here... (clears throat).

CLIENT: Or maybe I used to get it but after Lawrenceville I didn't and...but like you said it's also possible.

THERAPIST: You feel like you did get it? You were for a time, feel like you were getting something?

CLIENT: From the family?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah it was pretty comfortable 8th, 9th grade...6th grade, 5th grade, 4th grade sure...3rd grade.

THERAPIST: Were you going to just a local public school?

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) [00:14:39] Yeah honestly I feel like I can't provide everything for you. I did (inaudible) and I totally expected to, for it to even sound like that when it might be from behind. But yeah, fourteen or fifteen, whenever it was...

THERAPIST: You wanted to leave them behind?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: The independence?

CLIENT: That wasn't the appeal, the appeal was like political power or really that's crude scripture but you know ascendance, social ascendance.

THERAPIST: Okay. (pause) [00:16:06]

CLIENT: Yeah it's some sort of failure to launch, sort of went back to my family I think sooner or later. So like cause I don't know how to relate to them or they don't know how to relate to me at that time but I don't know how to relate to them now and anyway besides some sort of dependent or...yeah. But I think while I was away doing other things my parents didn't know how to relate to me or what I hoped to do. Just...

THERAPIST: Yes, what did you not...what was happening? What do you mean by "yeah?"

CLIENT: They weren't able to connect to me or you know what I (inaudible) not know, but it just didn't register, I've just gotten out of (inaudible) the last savory aspects of an elite boarding school education. [00:17:52] I guess it is but...so it's sort of understandable but they while I was separated they didn't register it, they didn't...and worst of all I went through an episode where I sort of had a terrible term paper and I got a great grade, not a great grade but I felt a decent grade on it and it was shit and that morning when I brought it in the papers were all over the place and only the first page, first page and a half was any good and the parents were there. My mom said after that she said "We're so proud of you," and it was the most (pause) alien...just like the most disgusting comment I've heard, ever. It was objective, (laughs) there's no way I could describe it because it was so far from the way I was feeling about myself, if they were proud of me or if she was proud of me that's...you know, that's reprehensive to me as well. [00:19:11] Just no connection to her. I do think on some level, I guess my mother was sort of complicit because she was encouraging me to go there and I wanted to go there but for her part it seems like she was aware of the fact that she could put me in an elite institution and when I graduated it's like people want the end and you get something, you get opportunities, you get all that and she didn't care about anything in between. They pay your tens of thousands of dollars and you get results and it's like an exchange relationship I wasn't on board with.

THERAPIST: Sounds like a sausage crying...

CLIENT: Yeah it's something like that.

THERAPIST: You don't care about the ugliness in the middle? (laughs)

CLIENT: Oh, nice...okay.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. She didn't really have a sense of what you were really, what your experience was like at Lawrenceville. I guess embodied really in the story of that term paper where you felt it was a piece of crap, you handed it in, there must have been a lot happening for you around the term paper and you already, you invited a feeling or thinking, something about the school is already having a hold on you and yet what do you hear at the end of all that? "Good job."

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:20:59]

THERAPIST: "We're proud of you."

CLIENT: "We're proud of you," is just sort of rised (ph?) her theory when she said it but it wasn't connected (noise)...yeah I closed out. After the first weekend at Lawrenceville, the first time I was sort of crying to my mother because she...I realized that families, like their kids grow up and they become distinct individuals and that's not like a one solid indivisible unit anymore, that it composes certain parts of the family. So I was pretty sad about that. My mother wanted me to tell her what was wrong and blah, blah, blah but I couldn't really describe much and after that I resolved to keep stuff to myself. So many years later I'm trying to explain that I haven't been happy for some time, they just don't understand, it's like "Your grades were fine," or "Your grades were fine..." The work I was doing for NASA's (laughs), I hadn't thought, yeah, I didn't try to (inaudible) I wasn't even able to because I was very depressed, even if I wanted to it was quite an effort so...[00:22:48] I showed up, most of the time.

THERAPIST: Well maybe the case is that something was happening and it's not that you didn't completely understand about how to communicate or articulate to them (clears throat) or felt like you couldn't try to make sense of it with them. Something was happening and it's something that was hard to put...maybe you do have a really good sense of what it was (clears throat) (pause).

CLIENT: I guess having such a strong family, I wasn't very exposed to other types of interactions. (pause) My manipulative relationships really affect the way, they also sort of fall short, rather they terminate like (inaudible) said that you know, things have always have to be my way and I can see how that's like, you know, she asks for a kiss or whatever, I don't feel like it, I don't give her a kiss and (laughs) it's always when I want things done that they happen. [00:24:34] I'm not entirely cooperative. But it's not like I feel more content stuck in these manipulative relationships than actually caring about somebody and I shouldn't say actually but to keep from caring about somebody and then I sort of fall on my face. (pause) You're (inaudible).

THERAPIST: (laughs) [00:26:03]

CLIENT: I always have a couple things to say but usually I forget them.

THERAPIST: I just had the thought did you...were you feeling anything as I was asking you about the Lawrenceville experience, I mean I noticed that you went to the Cleo (sp?) and I was thinking was it like too much of my own agenda or something like that? Or it felt to you like I was trying to press you too much?

CLIENT: No, that's not why. I couldn't explain with any sort of conscious calculation. It didn't work right, explain the connection between Cleo and the Lawrenceville...my experience did not sync. But not to jerk the conversation... (laughs) in another direction, not really another motivation story. Not really. We're sort of getting awareness, sort of cut short that...

THERAPIST: Yeah and not that's anything...it shouldn't be (noise) about that, what you said about Cleo and this accusation that you try to control things or something and in some way maybe like it felt like I was getting too...my agenda was too much and I started to wonder that as we were talking about what your feeling...

CLIENT: It's good I...that seems like different stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah, okay.

CLIENT: But also when you first speak up, it's all about me. When your speaking, I was thinking I actually control and it's interesting that you are taking objection to that because in the past I've had or people have...my old boss said I had trouble with boundaries and so it seems like...boundaries. [00:28:19] It seems ironic or oppositional, I don't know. On one hand if I, it seems like I can't win in some way or like I don't care, that's the way it is and that's (inaudible), like that's just how it is so...but yeah I'd rather look at Seth asking me for control too much then (pause) attacking me for like a nebulous sense of interaction (laughs).

THERAPIST: Other than crossing some sort of boundary?

CLIENT: Yeah well Tracy would say that, she would say something like you don't have a sense of (inaudible). I don't know what she's talking about.

THERAPIST: Who's Tracy?

CLIENT: My old boss at the flower shop.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: She's not very sexually active.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: I do feel, although I'm self-conscious about my narrative when I say this based on things I've described, let downs and some song I should be saying...just need to, like my awareness of this, you know, dubious narrative but I really feel like a lot of...or there's a large, it's like a conglomeration of bites or obstacles for men to live today. [00:30:19] Or in this society. I feel like the legislative system is not equivalent, like if I can live the same (inaudible), I'm going to go away for more time. I feel like the whole rape situation is really uncomfortable because I'm someone who when I went to college, the first week was dedicated to making people aware of sticky situations and alcohol and I was told, not informed but told that if there's alcohol involved and you know, we had sex and the girl said the next day it's not okay then that's rape. That's just kind of absurd, what I said at that time was it seems like you should put the emphasis on drinking alcohol or the decision to drink alcohol instead of holding me accountable for someone else's decision while their drunk. How is it automatically my fault if we get together and everything seems consensual and then that's where I go, you know, she was drunk. I haven't had any experiences like that...

THERAPIST: Where do we draw the lines though of when you cross something, only later?

CLIENT: Yeah and like, I don't think, I think women have a very different idea of their...or a very different way of understanding sex and consent than men do and I find it a very...a situation, a legal and social understanding that lacks connection to common sense. [00:32:09] Not that I've had any bad runs myself but I've been very timid, you know?

THERAPIST: Because of the kind of nebulous quality of either culturally or legislatively it's become...

CLIENT: (inaudible) but to hear you say it it's sort of absurd that that would be influencing me.

THERAPIST: Yeah, what?

CLIENT: Well, it's kind of a confidence, psychological thing.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: Well you know, it's like a job, it's not a very personal explanation for behavior.

THERAPIST: Huh. Well what I'm sensing is your finding that the psychological component is you find it kind of confusing and unclear, where the lines are, and that they can shift, change.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so maybe you end up being a bit more timid and trepidatious (sp?).

CLIENT: Yeah...I'm not sure, perhaps I've just become acquainted with the opposite sex but it's...yeah, lately it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. (inaudible) but obviously I can draw attention too but it's I think what I want in life, this is the funniest of things but I think women want many different things from men and it's impossible to provide them all at once.

THERAPIST: And they might change?

CLIENT: Of course, absolutely they change! And they change with...totally arbitrarily. [00:33:48]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I mean like Cleo some, she said it was her birthday and she started dancing with me and you know, encouraging me to have champagne, I was fasting that day so I didn't have any champagne, I hadn't eaten anything all day but you know, and I knew this would happen, we were kissing and all that stuff then she says "No way, we can't do this, I have to move and this is..." well she had said "You are handsome," before but she said "I can't stay in this house because stuff's going to happen," and I correctly I think, immediately cut out the fact that she had decided to move but she's trying to use some sort of chemistry between us as a means or an excuse to move out early from the lease. It seemed very forced to me but it wasn't that forced, but still it was a little forced toward the end, not the dancing but the kissing part and all that.

THERAPIST: The dancing seemed real? The champagne, the dancing, all that?

CLIENT: Yeah it was her birthday and she's...so...

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: I don't mind but yeah the kissing and then immediately pulling away from the kissing saying "I can't do this," I said it to her, I said "So, you've decided to move out and you need an excuse to do it, that's it?" and she's like "What? I don't understand." I said, "So you've made a decision to move out and you are trying to build up a reason list, that's what this is about right?" and she just pretends not to understand but that's exactly what it is. That's exactly what it is! [00:35:42] So I gave her a good reason to move out...

THERAPIST: (laughs) Did she want to move out after that, is that...?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Okay, well what is her lease?

CLIENT: It's a year, it's through August.

THERAPIST: Okay, is the boyfriend wanting her to move out?

CLIENT: Yeah, I would assume so, I don't ask about...I told her not to talk to me about the boyfriend.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So...

THERAPIST: Well yeah I mean...yeah, yeah. But she stood firm on the not moving out or on "I had no designs on moving out."?

CLIENT: She pretended not to understand, she didn't understand...yeah exactly. I was worried about that when she had sex with my other roommate, that's what was my primary concern was wanting her to...afraid she'd want to move out, you know, living with someone who's, I don't know, you have sex with, I don't know if that works but I guess I created the same or some sort of situation like that. [00:37:02] Although I guess it's more complicated...I don't want to discuss her as (inaudible, I don't listen to her anymore so.

THERAPIST: Yeah but that manipulative call, what is...?

CLIENT: I'm getting used to it but I haven't grasped it in the past and I unfortunately, she's someone I've gotten to know, I've spent a lot of time with so I can spot something like that but with other women, who knows? They can have their own ticks, their own hold-ups, their own real and alternative explanations for anything.

THERAPIST: For what it's worth my mind just went to your mom, with the tears and the praise around the shitty paper.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: The kind of sense that you have, of her wanting you to come...to go in one way and come out another way, (pause), what's that, maybe it's a certain kind of manipulative kind of quality to it. Maybe, I don't know if you experience that with her, it just kind of came to mind.

CLIENT: It's like the idea is fixed, it's...I'm to stay here and do well and in the face of all, any alternative, empirical observation, it just doesn't even compute.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Like I, yeah...exactly.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: Its predetermined for her, my connection to her would be dependent on how well I fit into her plan, there's no real...I hadn't thought of this before, you're sort of calling me out, but there's no connection otherwise, there's no...as long as I walk the line, then we can see eye to eye but if I don't it's not even like we fight, it's like it doesn't even, there's no confrontation, it doesn't exist.

THERAPIST: Wow!

CLIENT: It's a (inaudible) or something.

THERAPIST: Wow!

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:39:41]

THERAPIST: Yeah that she didn't really even see the reality of the paper and all that meant. That kind of thing? It was just a blind eye to that?

CLIENT: Not just to that, yeah. And I feel like I, the way I saw it or interpreted it was (inaudible) because she was sad or ashamed but she was acting completely different.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Maybe she was in fact proud but if she was, so much it works.

THERAPIST: So much it works, yeah. (laughs) The disconnect is even more profound then.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I have issues with masturbation that I need to talk about. I can't, like I feel in control with a relationship and its good, but I can't control the desire, not the desire but the practice of viewing pornography and jacking off, like two nice girls came over and I really had a great time with them but after they left and we didn't do anything physically, after they left I was just like, I felt great and then I put that energy into watching porn and jacking off, it's like I can't shake the sex drive, it's like...I don't know, I have no grasp on it and it just drains me of energy, it changes how I see people in a physical way, I guess I'm getting more comfortable with that but the fact (inaudible) completely there and yeah, I don't have energy, I don't think it's really a more tentative and bitter though, it's probably not directly related to...maybe none of its directly related to jacking off.

THERAPIST: How much do you masturbate? [00:42:00]

CLIENT: It depends, like if expect real sex then I won't do it but if I've been waiting for real sex for two weeks I'll do it and if it's more than two weeks and if I don't expect anything I'll probably do it, like watch porn and then jerk, three times a week or something. Mostly against my will I think, I think pornography is a terrible thing. I mean there's like one or two good videos ever (laughs), as I've seen online but for the most part it's the fact of watching somebody else having sex is not morally reprehensible but not in any way useful and (pause) I'm trying to think this out...It's a vicarious experience that's...if it's not harmful it's definitely not beneficial, something about the disconnect between physical pleasure and physical contact or physical pleasure and satisfying another person or physical ability and physical need and physical experience...that's still not there. [00:43:31] There's a profound disconnect that I feel like pornography exploits, it's not good.

THERAPIST: So it's not that it's a matter of how much or how often, more that what it's like when you do it? What it feels like? That's the part that's kind of unsettling, you want to get...?

CLIENT: What it feels like, yes. That's the part or else I...if it were a good thing I wouldn't care.

THERAPIST: Yeah, right, okay. I mean it's not like "I'm spending so much time, I'm not doing anything else."

CLIENT: It's not.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: (inaudible) diagnosis.

THERAPIST: No, well I'm just trying to get a feel of what it means to you, what your concerns are.

CLIENT: Yeah, okay. But yeah the practical aspects, in terms of the actual time spent masturbating it's very rarely that I've been like "Damn, if I hadn't been doing this for thirty minutes or whatever, then I would have done this..." more often it's like "Well if I hadn't done this, then I would be able to think afterwards and I would be able to talk to people and I wouldn't put off interactions and things like that."

THERAPIST: No, right. So it's much more like, where it takes you into what it makes you feel during it, after, in all sorts of ways then?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: No, I think it's worth us...

CLIENT: Morally, yeah.

THERAPIST: Attack?

CLIENT: Yes. [00:44:58] I've really tried...it's an issue of control also, I've tried to stop, I've sworn like on my grandmothers grave and like all these ridiculous things but it always comes back (laughs).

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I'm from a Catholic family, maybe that's why it's really inbred. I mean other people I describe as aversion to it, might find it laughable, like the few friends I've talked to this about, they think I'm somewhat out of the middle ages or something but I don't think it's positive influence in my life at all and whether I create the problem, it's something I've tried stopping and I've had no Segway, no power to regulate it.

THERAPIST: Okay, yeah. Yeah and it sounds like you find it upsetting you or kind of your ability to think as clearly as you liked afterwards.

CLIENT: Yeah. I can't connect with people as well.

THERAPIST: Connect with people, yeah.

CLIENT: Like talking to them.

THERAPIST: It must mean an awful lot to you, I wonder what all this means (laughter). No really, you know, there's something...[00:46:24] And you found yourself wanting to do this the other night when these two girls came over?

CLIENT: Do something physical or masturbate?

THERAPIST: You wanted to masturbate when they left? Was that the...?

CLIENT: I didn't want to but it happened.

THERAPIST: It happened. Okay, yeah. You did masturbate when they left?

CLIENT: Yeah, I felt great after they left, I was like...although yeah I guess I was, I would have pursued sexual avenues, it was one of those caring things where I care and I was...it was weird, they were 21 and I'm 25 but I'm looking to one of them to...I don't know, maybe I don't have enough experience with many people but I don't get the responsiveness like I think maybe I have to push a little, be more assertive because I was looking to her, to one of them to see where she was at and gauge that but really as a man you have to throw it on the table what you want and then they can say yes or no and then that's how it works. It doesn't work like seeking some sort of acceptance or something.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: If it becomes the option you take it. [00:47:53]

THERAPIST: I guess it must, I would imagine...it reminded me of those questions of what you can do and what you can't do and do you have to be cautious and how...

CLIENT: Yeah cause I don't want to jeopardize what the relationship is, as is stands.

THERAPIST: Right, right, and the caring? How does the caring kind of fold in with wanting to be assertive sexually in some way, how does...?

CLIENT: Wanting it to progress sexually, yeah. It's weird, maybe I've said this before but I think that sex is only appealing to me in that it like calms, pretty bad actually, it cultivates much more in fantasy, it's like it's a reliable way to establish a relationship in some way and...

THERAPIST: It does bring people closer.

CLIENT: (laughs) Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think that's one of the...I guess you kind of wonder if that's a (inaudible) in the diabolical sense or something.

CLIENT: Yeah for me it has to be. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Well sex is obviously a way for people to get...I mean it does, that's probably the...almost a biological, evolutionary kind of function of sex is to seem closer. Mating and all. [00:49:20] Maybe we should stop?

CLIENT: More on (inaudible), yeah. It's just one thing (inaudible), I mean is it worth this? (inaudible)

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Well (background noise)...

CLIENT: Sexual balance...for everything (background noise).

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