TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: (inaudible) bike, huh?

CLIENT: Oh yeah! Here you go, it's kind (inaudible). Check...

THERAPIST: Oh, thank you!

CLIENT: How was your last client?

THERAPIST: Oh, you know, great!

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah, what, what...?

CLIENT: Oh, I don't know. Trying to make small talk, I guess.

THERAPIST: Small talk? Yeah.

(pause 00:00:28 to 00:00:45]

You must have been riding pretty hard.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. It's just warm. It helps. I mean, that's the only way I do exercise, I think, is to run habitually late to things.

THERAPIST: When the pressure's on, right? You perform. [00:01:02]

CLIENT: Yeah, that bridge is dodgy, at least this bridge when I ride... And I had gotten used to it, because I biked last summer, but... Like, the grates are pretty wide, it goes over the river.

THERAPIST: Ooo, yeah!

CLIENT: And like, the wheels kind of like... It's like driving through sand, almost, except it's like, iron grate. There are like trucks on the bridge and it's like, bouncing up and down.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah, yeah. How... Are there gaps? That go between the grates?

CLIENT: Well, they have like this asterisk pattern, so it's not like this (therapist affirms). I've gone into like storm drains like that, and I was going like 30 to 35 through... There is the tunnel near Motley Square, and I was kind of under that and they had...

THERAPIST: Towards, towards, from Newport towards Motley?

CLIENT: Yeah, right at Motley Square there is the train station. As you're coming from the north, there is like this, you can go under the rotary? (therapist affirms) I was in that tunnel and I was going pretty fast, and there was one of those storm drains (they have the horizontal... yeah I guess, horizontal slits). My, the tire fit per like perfect in there. So I was going really fast and the tire just instantly popped, and all of a sudden I was like, on my feet like, holding the bike like this (therapist exclaims) like a stick. It was like skiing! [00:02:17]

THERAPIST: I believe your stuff, man, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, it was exciting. (pause) Yeah, I can see why people my age are like, the perfect candidates to like, go into wars and stuff, because I mean... I can take a lot of risks that are just meaningless, just for the sake of taking risks.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's like you're not, it's not... It's a different appreciation of the meaning of your life at that... yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(pause to 00:02:53 to 00:03:26)

So I made a list of things this morning... I'm not sure... (therapist affirms).

(pause) I have be average, I think, where (inaudible) concerns, but to me they are like a big deal. (therapist affirms) (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Mostly, they usually are. (chuckles) I mean...

CLIENT: Well, like last week, or was it two weeks ago now, I think I described a situation where there was a girl who was kind of interested in me. She was like touching my arm and stuff and I wanted to interject like, some proposal, but I ended up saying something else. I've been finding that a lot lately, like... [00:04:17]

Like, I want to suggest something to a group, but someone else says something first, and that alternative like, doesn't allow room for... or it makes it hard for me to like, move a consensus towards what I want to do. (therapist affirms) Or like in order to share something in a timely fashion, I have to like, I would have to cut off someone rudely, and I'm not like, willing to do that.

I mean, there are like serendipitous (that's not the right word but), there are conversations that just flow really well. Like, you feel like everything... You get to say what you want to say and you feel very satisfied. But lately, my conversations have been like "thick," so I'm like... Things don't seem to, it's like a song out of rhythm, it doesn't, it doesn't jive quite right.

THERAPIST: And then, what do you feel like, if you want to be more influential or take the lead, you feel like you're, it involves cutting somebody off or... [00:05:22]

CLIENT: Yeah. (therapist affirms) Like a certain conversation topic will persist, and I have no interest in it. Like it's getting time to go, and you know, there is limited time to get something in there. (therapist affirms) On the other hand, I did feel, I felt pretty marginalized at a recent meeting, two days ago. I had a pretty good weekend. Like, I went down to visit my cousins and we did like, some role-playing, and we played some music, and drank some beers and stuff. That was pretty good. It was good. [00:06:10]

Then I arranged this like, pie making event with one of the newer people to the church. It was pretty cool. The three that... Only five people showed up and three of them were like, Brown people. Like one was finishing Brown, undergrad; one's like, a post-doc or something; one's doing his master's in the theology school. But this has happened before with this group. The conversation turns to some like, not arcane but like, really sterilized and supposedly sophisticated topic that has like, no interest, for me, at least.

Like, they'd talk about archives for like, I don't know, at least 20 minutes. Like the archive, like people at the archive, and "Oh, do you happen to work at the archive?" And "I have two stories that I need to tell you about my time there, just because they're so funny, ha, ha, ha!" Like that's what he says, like that's not a natural conversation! [00:07:25]

That in itself wouldn't bother me, but I did feel sort of shunted in other ways. Like when I... The other leader of the group, like when I exposed a vulnerable side or if I... What is it that I was saying... Or if I try to loosely discuss literature or something, I sense a sort of condescension.

THERAPIST: Yeah, condescending towards you or...?

CLIENT: Yeah. It's not explicit, which makes it all the more aggravating. (therapist affirms)

(pause 00:08:17 to 00:08:30)

THERAPIST: In some way, you're trying to share something of yourself in this group and it's not going well, that it's...

CLIENT: Yeah, I feel more, yeah, more... Like, maybe I've taken like, my good experiences for granted lately. So when I go there, I don't go with any kind of pregnant thought or interesting spiritual query; I just go there and expect to be liked, I guess. You know, sometimes, I enjoy myself, and sometimes I don't.

This would happen repeatedly. Like, I'd start saying something and someone else would say something at the same time. They'd keep talking, I'd just let them talk. But the Brown people, too; they'd like, interrupt each other before they finish. Like in a normal conversation, that might be okay; but in a church setting, you have a baseline expectation of being a little more considerate, I think. [00:09:27]

This one guy in particular, he's like in his own world and he's... I value him because he's been a very regular participant in all the events I've sponsored, so I've gotten to know him pretty well. But he... And I also value like, his attention to detail. You know, you can call on it, and I can just label him as like a sardonic intellectual. That's basically what he is.

But on the other hand, he is very interested in expressing his sophisticated and well-considered (supposedly or, you know, he thinks), points of view at the expense sometimes of, you know, of a group collaboration, whatever you... what have you (chuckles), a group coming together. (therapist affirms). [00:10:29]

It seems to fill, to penetrate that sort of self-satisfied mantel that he adopts. I mean, to me, he's clearly not very happy with himself; but at the same time, he can't really extricate himself from this value system that informs him that romanticist is sort of having a very cohesive thesis to present in whatever context, whatever social context. I guess that's an interesting point of study, (chuckles) (therapist affirms) as well as sort of an emotional hang-up at times.

THERAPIST: But I guess you're actually commenting on like, that those kind of things make a feeling of kind of a warmth (maybe warmth is the wrong word), but some sort of... belonging, a group, a good group feeling, and is kind of is obstructive. Is that...? [00:11:30]

CLIENT: Yeah, intellectual labor carries a man out of society, a craft leads him towards men. (therapist acknowledges) (pause) This event was pie making like, we made pies, they were big pies. Yeah, but also, a little interesting note, I mean I guess I'm sort of thinking out loud, I don't know if that's okay, but... There was this one guy who, I could kind of gossip to. It's difficult in a religious context; you're supposed to be accepting of everyone, but I found someone who I can kind of like say, "You know, is that guy crazy?" (chuckles) You know? So, he's good. But he's, he's like a gay, he used to be a Mormon.

So the person who was doing the pie making at that point (sort of pigeonholed to do this), started off with the topic of conversation, saying like, "Hey, I met this gay Mormon the other day. How weird is that?" And like, the guy was like, "Uh... well..." And then he kind of like, tried not to be noticed, but then someone said, "What?" And like, you know, I basically re-stated like what, like what was, I basically framed his discomfort, and I guess kind of forced him to come out to new strangers. [00:12:47]

I don't know whether he resented me for that later, because every time I would start saying something in the conversation (there are only five people), but I'd start saying something and he would immediately interrupt me. Or like, he wouldn't interrupt me, even; like, he would just completely ignore me and start talking to someone else. Like at the exact same time that I said something. You know, so I'd say, "I started to say 'x'," small talk, and he'd say, "So should we take the pies out now?" to the person who was, like...

THERAPIST: Sounds like he's pissed at you.

CLIENT: Yeah, maybe. I don't know if it was that, but I... I admit, I recognized the token disrespect, or the token of disrespect.

THERAPIST: How did he, how did it, how did it go when you, you know, you kind of "framed it for him," as you put it. Did he, did he say something about...

CLIENT: He said, "Oh, well, I'm gay and I come from a Mormon background." And the other guy said, "Oh, well, you're not in the church now, are you? The guy I was thinking of was still active in the church." And he said, "Oh, that would make it difficult," and then it was just dismissed. [00:13:51]

THERAPIST: Okay, okay.

(pause 00:13:52 to 00:14:08)

CLIENT: Yeah!

THERAPIST: What are you thinking?

CLIENT: I'm just pulling on the end of a string; it probably leads somewhere. Like my friend, Edgar has started to show me ways to be looser, or at least more open about sexuality, or about interpersonal relationships. I've also been thinking about how the company you keep can really affect how you behave yourself, pretty profoundly; or it's been true in my case, at least.

I thought of that, too, because of the guy at the flower shop like, calling me up again. I mean, I didn't expect to still be delivering flowers like, years after I quit with them, you know. Choices you make, or the lack of choices you make, sort of determine where you'll go. It's unusual to me to still be connected to that character. Pretty soon, I'll probably be dependent on some form of income from him. [00:15:20]

But anyway, I mean, Edgar sort of represents a lower class. No, yeah, I mean, he himself comes from pretty well off background. He represents a, yeah, almost in an older parlance (ph), like a negro sensibility, like a looser, more... not jive-y, but you know, your more sensual experience, right? (therapist responds)

But the interesting thing about the gathering at the friends (ph) meeting with the five people, it was just like the same sort of things are going on. Like, people are sort of jousting intellectually, trying to get position, almost as if they were in a bar trying to, you know, show each other up, but it's like just a more contrived format. [00:16:20]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Were there women there?

CLIENT: Yeah, there was one. (pause) I also, I tried to get to, to more involved... (inaudible) was sort of like self-defeating. "I have finals tomorrow, da-da-da-da..." "What are you doing right now?" "Oh, I'm doing this pout-pout-pout," she has to like, clean up the forest, or something.

The other one is very diffident. The other woman... There are just people who live in this church, basically and... The other one's kind of self-satisfied, but in a way that seems positive. Like, she can ignore other people and still seem sort of content.

Her, I... I guess I got self-conscious with her. I kind to went for the one, who said she had finals; brought her in, asked her if she wants pie, because we actually accidentally ordered five pizzas. We had five pizzas and like... Like, someone ordered three pizzas for us, but we didn't know. And then we ordered two pizzas, and then there were two pies. So it was like a lot of food-five people. So we tried to get other people involved. [00:17:41]

Yeah, I don't know what to say about the other one. (inaudible/weak) Yeah, but talking to people, I have this sort of go-between... I mean, I have a sense of manners and I could be chivalrous and considerate; but at the same time, I found some success with the other approach and... which is just, you know, cutting people off. (therapist affirms) Even marginalizing people, pretty ruthlessly, if I can. I would say...

THERAPIST: Being more aggressive (inaudible/blocked) Make sure you're not...

CLIENT: Yeah. Ruthlessly is too, too hard a word. But, yeah. Being aggressive and... and considerate towards members of the same sex, basically. [00:18:33]

THERAPIST: Uh-hm, uh-hm. Yeah, no, I mean, it's... One thing that I hear you grappling with, is like, well how do you make that kind of, how do you... put together, I guess, these different qualities? I think what you're also getting at is maybe different kind of things you're looking for from these kinds of groups. I was thinking, specifically, around... It sounds like you do want to have like, a group kind of like, peers; people that you feel kind of friendly, collegial, whatever. (client affirms) And how do you... As well as you're also, they're also competitors in some ways, they're competitors, maybe for space and attention, you know, and the way that everybody wants to... And also with the women. [00:19:37]

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, the woman at (inaudible) I had some interest in, and she responded pretty favorably to me. But, I sort of stopped myself; one, because I'd already publicly like, kind of hit on, not hit on, but I approached the other person; two, I'm not sure. (chuckles) I don't know if there is a two! I gave pretty profuse signals on the second person. Came around like, I moved over towards her and then moved away from her, around like, so I went through two people to get next to her, went back through people to go across, because I didn't want it to be too obvious. [00:20:22]

THERAPIST: Huh!

CLIENT: You know, I'd already approached, got next to the other girl. I don't know. And she had sort of backed off.

THERAPIST: It's really like, kind of like, expression of your ambivalence?

CLIENT: I guess.

THERAPIST: You go towards her, then you move away...

CLIENT: Yeah, and right when I wanted to start up a conversation, because it's a pretty valid point; like these people who live there, they don't necessarily want to get to know the people who are involved in the church. So I thought I would just, you know, would not hit the nail on the head, but go right after that and just say so, you know... Because I asked her what her name was, and she said, "Sarah (sp)." So I said, "Do you want to know what the other people's names are?" You know, try to avoid cultivating relationships with clients, something friends sent her (ph), um...

THERAPIST: Like, who is, who is, you guys were somewhere...

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. We were in the... It's like a church, and then there is a sort of a support building, where they house three or four residents, and where there are large gathering rooms. That space is rented out during the week to like, Buddhist practitioners, to all kinds of people, AA groups. (therapist affirms) There are classrooms and there are living rooms; so that's like a house that's been converted into a social meeting place. Then there is a religious meeting place, that's the second building. (therapist affirms) So we were in the social meeting place. [00:21:43]

But anyway, I was cut off, right as I started to state that, to start that conversation by the girl, who I tell you I feel like she condescends towards me. Especially because like, there are certain things that I've picked up from girls who are like... You know, this one, when I was a sophomore in college, who would always end, like whatever she said with, "Well, I hope you do well," or "Good luck," or like, "I hope you do this, I hope you do that." It's just like, "Oh, that makes you feel good."

This one girl, she always ends something she's like, thanking me for something I've done, either then or like a long time ago; she's like... So this time, she said something like, "Thank you for that time when you like, announced that it's time to break up the meeting." Like, "I didn't know what to do and all that." It's like ages ago. It's like, why do you bring that up? Like, do you think this affects me in some positive way? (chuckles) I just feel like, you're trying to jerk me around in some way. I suppose it's a function of her personality, but... [00:22:44]

THERAPIST: But that she's jerking you around and... ? Or "throwing you a bone" kind of thing? Or?

CLIENT: Something like that. Well, it's not a natural, you know, rapport. I've come to the conclusion, like, none of this stuff matters; it's just... It's still been frustrating for me. (therapist affirms) (pause) Yeah, so I'm about (inaudible/weak).

THERAPIST: Well, I think you take how people treat you seriously.

CLIENT: Yeah. Something Edgar said once when I was in a bar. Like, I started talking to this girl and I mean, she just ignored me. Like, she pretended I wasn't even there. He was like, "You know, you have to like, call that out." I guess what he said, like, "You can't just like, let that stand," you know? And I don't know how to... I don't have any training in that, really. (chuckles) [00:23:48]

So like, when the guy, the one guy who I, maybe I offended him because I made him come out and something, but... To me, I mean, you just are what you are. Seemed like as good a time to bring it up, seemed pretty natural time for it to come up. But, you know, to think that he would speak at the same time I spoke, and on like a different topic... I, you know, I felt like maybe I, afterwards, I felt maybe I should have, you know...

THERAPIST: Said something?

CLIENT: Said something, like, "What's this about?" (therapist affirms) Like, even at the expense, I mean, there are other people around, but it's like, I feel kind of disrespected.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Well, no, and you also were noting some sort of shift in his behavior towards you and... [00:24:40]

CLIENT: I'd also (chuckles) I told this story to him. So I mean, Friday night, I had given my keys to my brother by accident, so he could use the car. So I didn't have any keys. I only left the house, I left the cellar door to the house unlocked. Actually, I'm sure I can share this story, but it's like a long embarrassing story, and I told it to him, so maybe he didn't like that kind of story.

THERAPIST: What, you told this story, you told your brother's story?

CLIENT: I told a story that happened to me to this guy. But that's alright. I mean there are, I'll probably just move on, if I can.

THERAPIST: Yeah! Well, you were getting worried about the, getting recorded or something?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay. Anything that I can clear up for you, in terms of concern? [00:25:46]

CLIENT: Nnnn... maybe later. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Okay, okay. (pause) Yeah, if there are certain things you need to tell me off the tape, that's fine.

CLIENT: Okay. It's a simple story, it just involves getting into my apartment when I was locked out. But, um, speaking of my apartment, I mean, I'm just having a great time like, picking up music when I first started doing the little, not little, but the open mics. I was really kind of getting into it. Then the landlord came up one night and like, objected to me playing at 11:00. Then he came up the next night and he objected to me playing at like 10:00. I felt kind of pushed around. [00:26:47]

But also, his point was like, reasonable. I mean, from a consensus or from like, a general point of view, I think. Someone asking someone else to stop playing music at 10:00 on a weeknight is, it sounds reasonable to me. Right? (therapist affirms)

I just think I was very much into what I was doing and also my instrument is very quiet, it's a folk stringed (ph) guitar. No one, like my roommates have never complained about it, they can't even... I talked to them about it, and they said it's never been a problem. It's only the guy beneath me. So it made me think it was a control issue. But at any rate, you know, ever since that time, I've always had him like, in my head whenever I start playing. Like, I... (therapist affirms) And that's something I resist. I'm not sure how normal the extent of the effect is, but I just, I can't...

THERAPIST: You can't quite shove him out of you head, either? [00:27:47]

CLIENT: Yeah. Some fear of him, I guess. See, it's my landlord. (therapist affirms) It's really bothersome.

THERAPIST: Well, I get the sense, too, that you, that it kind of, like means some sort of guilt you might feel about... You know, impact kind of... (client affirms) You can't get off, you're almost like in a, you can't get it off your conscience or something.

CLIENT: Hmm. (pause) I always, it used to be something that was just totally like, one of very few things that was totally "my space." I mean, I guess even when I'm in my room, I'm also thinking that, "Okay, I don't have a job, you know, I don't have much of a story to tell people, if they ask, along professional parameters." And so even when I'm just sort of minding my own business, at my ease... I just don't... sort of... foreign cognizance. The music was something I was into completely, without any thought of anything else. (therapist responds) But it sort of became perturbed after he came up, and I can't... Like now, whenever I pick up the guitar, I wonder if he's home, because I don't want him listening or hearing anything I'm doing. [00:29:26]

THERAPIST: Oh, is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean especially I guess if he's apathetic to it, so...

THERAPIST: It's more, it's more than just privacy; it's that he'd be, you'd be disruptive, and banging, you know, "I hate to tell you this..."

CLIENT: Yeah, that thought enters my mind, but I... It's not even that he'd stop it, necessarily; it's that he'd hear, and his view of it is different than my view of it. I don't know. (therapist affirms) I mean is that normal, or not? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I think it's normal. (pause) Yeah, it seems related to a lot of what you've talked about today, which is, what kind of you know, what kind of impact do you have on the world around you, when you're looking, especially when you have your own interests at stake? [00:30:31]

You know, whether it be with, you know, talking at a meeting, wanting to be heard, why am I not, you know, your voice out there, wanting to meet a woman. I think you're talking a lot about like, well (sighs) if you're shy and retreating, you're not going to get anything. (client chuckles) And yet, you sort of say, yeah, I can be... Another approach you might go to is to try to be, "Well, I'm not going to worry about what other people are thinking," but that, that ends up being kind of difficult as well.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I feel the frenzy (ph) of my relationships. Like, I... I don't think I have a net I'm comfortable with. Like, I can't fall back on family, I feel like they're, they have sort of a condescending, or some of them have a condescending attitude towards me and others have a paternalistic attitude, and others, you know... They just haven't adapted to how I'm growing. [00:31:37]

You know, in terms of friends, I have a few. But they're kind of, they're just phone conversations. You know, one of them is probably like, a manic-depressive, or he was; I don't think he still is. The other one is like, sardonic (ph), (inaudible), our conversations are always the same. It's having casual, existential graces. I guess, yeah, I get close to people and then I sort of object to how they... how they see me. (chuckles) (therapist affirms)

Like I can't... I treasured one moment out of the whole Birmingham debacle, it wouldn't be accurate to call it Birmingham, just say my clash was Grinnell (ph) over Birmingham. I mean, the one slimy dean, I don't know what to make of him still but... There was someone else who said something to me. I basically called her to say... I was on, like an uninhabited island, that square I was working for the summer. I just made a phone call to this dean, who is the dean of foreign programs and I said, "So what's going on? My parents tell me like, some sort of nomination has been revoked or something like that." [00:33:00]

She started off like really staccato-like by saying, "You did this and this and this and this, da-da-da-da-da...," and then I'm like, "Oh, well, hold on here! I just... please, please!" Like... (chuckles) Here we have it; I'm just trying to figure out what's going on. And she did; she stopped enough and she explained the situation and she said something like... (pause)

Right. Anyway, she said, "But you know what? I think you'll make a great "ex" (ph) one day." And an "ex" was just exactly how I thought of myself like, what I would become. To hear that was so wonderful. It was wonderful! I mean, it had been years since anyone had sort of recognized what I thought as important in me. (therapist acknowledges) And it was just that one sentence. [00:34:06]

THERAPIST: Wow. Huh.

CLIENT: That same woman, when I came back... I remember I came back sort of, with the idea of reforming the school, as a member of student council. I applied from Portland or whatever. But, I remember having a meeting with the dean on the subject of... something, some arts program or arts award. She was there to say "Hi" to me, but the deans had sort of like gathered me into this room and they just shut the door. (chuckles) The door went closing in her face. I don't think I ever desired again (ph)... just sort of surrounded by these... people.

THERAPIST: So it's significant to you?

CLIENT: Well, I remember it.

THERAPIST: What about it?

CLIENT: The visual.

THERAPIST: Uh-hmm. What did it mean? What's it mean?

(pause 00:35:10 to 00:35:58)

CLIENT: It was like a forlorn, Gatsby-esque quest for connection being thwarted, you know? (inaudible/blocked) (therapist affirms) I was going to say, I always get involved with these phony people, but I mean, that's not very accurate. It's just that... I... The pure relationships I, or the pure interactions I generate seem to sort of drift away, and they probably drift away for a lot of people. You can't really hold onto them or anything.

I thought about changing her to my advisor and my dean, but then I thought that wouldn't be a good idea because like... It would be like running away from my problems with this slimy dean that I have, and the slimy dean was in charge of all kinds of academic scholarships. He was the one that would recommend you for x, y, or z if you ever wanted to go somewhere. So I mean, if I changed from him to her, I wouldn't be sort of rectifying that relationship. I would just be jumping ship, even though I had more of an attachment to the lady at that point. (therapist affirms) [00:37:22]

THERAPIST: Well, I think you badly needed something that she gave you in that one moment, that one instance.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah, I don't think I could get it out of her again, probably. Maybe in smaller doses. (pause) Yeah, but I... (pause) I think we're heavily impacted by what we, what people expect of us or what people around us are doing. I guess I'm not very good at surrounding myself with people who are doing things I'd like to be doing.

THERAPIST: (pause)Yeah, what's that? What would you...? What would you want to be doing?

(pause 00:38:49 to 00:39:39)

CLIENT: When I went down to the Hamptons this weekend, I ran into a cousin who is about my age. I mean, there was another one who is about my age, but... We sort of hang out together. And I've explained to you some of the tension between my cousins' mothers and myself. And I guess... I don't know.

This Sunday (ph) cousin, he's someone who I realized this weekend, I've kind of always stolen the spotlight from. Like, the fact that we had such a close extended family meant that, you know, there were almost like multiple mothers in college, but his mother would particularly lavish attention on me and would often say that to this kid like, "Oh, why can't you be more like Brandon," or "Look at what's Brandon's doing." And she'd always, like she was a huge supporter when I started singing or whatever. [00:40:37]

This kid is the third of three children and he spent a lot of time like, playing video games when he was growing up. To my eyes he's sort of, he's at the beck and call of his older siblings. They don't necessarily (chuckles) conceive of him as someone with independent needs. In other words, I felt empathy for him in that I think I've probably taken quite a bit of attention from him. I can see... the effects. I mean, I could see how that would make you feel as not very good, especially when it's your own family. [00:41:21]

We started playing music together, and then he played some stuff and I played some stuff and... What does it matter, but I mean, I... He just doesn't have anything to fall back on, because I know nobody is waiting for him to do anything. Nobody is looking, you know? Nobody's hoping he does x, y, or z. But I mean I guess that's me projecting how I feel, as well... sort of. Your keeping attention seems so crucial.

THERAPIST: Keeping attention?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. But to something that feels real about you.

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: Something, but it has to be the right kind of attention.

CLIENT: I'm not sure. [00:42:23]

THERAPIST: Oh, I guess what I was thinking about was somehow, thinking about your mother, and it sounds like, some way in which there was a kind of an interest in you becoming this trajectory, the "star." And then you wanted to, as any kid would or any adult would, for that matter, would want to be seen or something, real and deep about themselves that's trying to be known. I think in some way, something was missed, something about who you are was missed by her, maybe your dad, too. (client affirms) This woman that made this comment on the phone strikes me as like a kind of an important... (client affirms) antidote to that feeling. (client affirms)

(pause 00:43:26 to 00:43:47)

Yeah, if I could say now what I feel like you're grappling with is, how you be your own man. What kind of, and making a life for yourself that feels yours, but in the... but gets attention. And not in the negative sense, but really gets the right kind of attention. Not for being a "star" or any of that crap, but for doing something that resonates (ph) /blocked/ with you.

CLIENT: Yeah, I thought today, I think I've... Logan (sp) asked me this question once. He said, you know, "Fame or money?" But I would always pick fame, and he thought I was crazy. It kind of made sense to me, because, I mean, if you... fame is like something that, if you can't satisfy yourself with, it's not going to satisfy you. I mean, as far as render you completely dependent and contingent on a very variable force. It's almost the most servile existence you could hope for, is to be famous, if you don't first figure out, you know, what keeps you going as a person. (therapist affirms) [00:45:08]

(pause) I'm also, I mean, I've been wondering if I had some sort of like, gay sexuality.

THERAPIST: Huh!

CLIENT: I don't know, but I... I've often asked my friends, like I said in college, like I asked my roommate, I'm like, "Am I gay or something? Because I've wondered." He said, "I don't know. I mean, it's something for you." I was wondering if I had like a "gay accent" or things like that. I just don't know. I mean, I don't think so, but then, the reason I've been thinking this is, first of all the basketball. Like whenever I'm at basketball, I start to, I think... Like I, I wouldn't say I get turned on, but I'm becoming very cognizant of like when men (chuckles)...

THERAPIST: Huh!

CLIENT: ...their physiques or whatever. The other thing is... but that's when I think about it. But the other thing is, I just feel more comfortable around men. Like, for all my efforts, like, women kind of scare me. Like, I... It's, I don't know why. Like this one, just the situation I was describing. Like, I was really ambivalent towards this girl. I approached her, she was very open to me after I turned and liked walked away. I was like... In a sense that I almost feel like it would so much easier to cultivate, for me personally, to cultivate like a deeper relationship with men or a man than with a woman, just because I have a lot of trust issues. So I mean... I don't know. [00:46:45]

THERAPIST: Well, one thing I think of with the women that brings up is you having to be... I mean, well, not that it always has to be this way, but... It sounds like you're, there is a lot of anxiety around being the initiator, being the one that's the seducer. (client affirms) All that means to you, it's just credibly complicated stuff. Because I think you want to... You want to, I think you want to have a real connection with a woman that feels pure, but there is also the sexual.

CLIENT: Yeah, and my recent experience was, I mean I did. I did all the pushing and I brought it home. But I... It was like "wooden," almost. It was sexual, but there was absolutely nothing else. And it wasn't enough. I don't know. [00:47:42]

THERAPIST: "Wooden," huh! Huh! So to speak. (both laugh) Well, it's interesting, though, because I think "wooden" has the connotation of sexuality, but it also is lifeless.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Well, that's your problem, right?

THERAPIST: But is that what it means to you guys now (ph)? When you're in that mode, does it feel kind of, you know... Yeah a certain potency, but not really...

CLIENT: I had that with Penelope (ph) too, where I'd have a natural like... Like, she'd come in after a long absence and I'd be like, "Let's have sex now," but I'd never act on that. Then I'd wait and then it did feel sort of perfunctory, almost. "Wooden." It's not the best adjective, but it didn't feel natural or... probably that's the right thing to say. It was forced. [00:48:45]

THERAPIST: (pause) All right. Yeah.

CLIENT: Thanks.

THERAPIST: Friday?

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

END TRANSCRIPT