TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: (joined in progress) (inaudible), I'm like, fuck, like that (inaudible).

THERAPIST: What did you say?

CLIENT: Nothing, (inaudible)

CLIENT: (pause) What do you want to know this time around?

THERAPIST: (chuckles) You make it sound like I'm a voyeur. (both laugh)

CLIENT: You are; it's just that I come to you. (therapist affirms) Because I need attention.

THERAPIST: I guess I am a voyeur, of sorts. (pause) Do you know how to drum, by the way?

CLIENT: No, I wish. I'm horrible at it.

THERAPIST: Is that right? [00:01:00]

CLIENT: It would probably come with dancing. I might have to pick it up. The folk stringed (sp?) guitar, I mean, no matter how good it is, it's very rare you find like, an audience that will actually pay attention to it, so...

THERAPIST: Have you performed much in public?

CLIENT: A little bit, yeah. (therapist affirms) Here and there.

(pause 00:01:22 to 00:02:08)

Have you ever watched that old Superman show?

THERAPIST: Which one? The black and white one?

CLIENT: No. Like early (ph) 90s, I think. They had like a Superman re-make.

THERAPIST: Is that Smallville?

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, maybe Smallville.

THERAPIST: Or is it the one, the Dean Cain guy played Superman and there is another one. There was another one in the 90s with that guy, Dean Cain. I don't know where (inaudible/weak/blocked). I remember; my middle name is Dean, and that's why.

CLIENT: Maybe, okay. Because I was thinking you look like that guy, probably Dean Cain.

THERAPIST: Dean Cain?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: In the Clark Kent frames?

CLIENT: Right! (laughs) You know? What happens when you take them off?

THERAPIST: I need a phone booth!

CLIENT: Right! They don't have those anymore! (both laugh)

THERAPIST: Dean Cain, yeah, yeah, yeah. The one with, what's her name, was it Teri Hatcher, right? Was that...? The actress? [00:03:14]

CLIENT: Yeah, I wasn't thinking of actors and actresses when I was that age, but I do remember like, what she looked like.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah, yeah. You would have been pretty young, right. (pause) Yeah, Smallville, I think is... I have never watched the show, but apparently, it's about the story of Clark Kent as a kid.

CLIENT: Yeah, or an adolescent?

THERAPIST: Adolescent, right.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think I watched one episode of that. It seemed pretty good.

THERAPIST: Dean Cain, the Dean Cain resemblance.

CLIENT: You get that a lot?

THERAPIST: A couple of people have told me that, but not in a while. Yeah.

CLIENT: I get Jeff Goldblum sometimes. (both laugh) Or just like, someone (now and then, maybe like twice a year), someone will be like, "You look like you're famous, or something." Like, "You're some celebrity, aren't you?" Maybe they're thinking Jeff Goldblum, I don't know. [00:04:25]

(pause) Is that a welcome question? Like, not from me, but just in general, when people ask you; like, do you feel slightly flattered or do you feel like... I don't know, like I feel when someone's like, "Brandon; that's kind of like 'Brandon cracker.'" You know? "Ha, ha, ha." Like, it's not that funny, you know? (laughs) It's not very clever. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Brandon Crack..., oh, what do you mean, when someone asks me if I just look like... if I've heard that before?

CLIENT: Yeah. Or, no, if someone asks you, like, "You look like this person."

THERAPIST: Well, if it's a famous actor, it's hard not to feel flattered. (laughs)

CLIENT: Yeah, and a superhero, too!

THERAPIST: Superhero, to boot! Yeah. It beats when I was told I looked like Skippy, from Family Ties, when I was... (both laugh) [00:05:30]

CLIENT: That's a good one. If this hair keeps growing back, I'm going to get Fredo; I mean, that's who I'll look like, the guy from The Godfather; it's terrible!

THERAPIST: Fredo, yeah.

CLIENT: I don't think I could shave my head.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, no.

CLIENT: I guess I could "go Zen," but I'll bet my head has all kinds of like weird bumps.

THERAPIST: Huh. Why, knocked around or something?

CLIENT: No, I wasn't abused. I...

THERAPIST: Well... (chuckles)

CLIENT: I just assumed.

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: Look, I mean, I can feel it. It has like strange contours. And I also have an intellectual (ph) head. So, yeah. If I extend it even farther, it'd probably look even weirder (ph).

(pause) Do you know how to remove mold from books? [00:06:40]

THERAPIST: Oh, no, no.

CLIENT: (chuckles) I was doing that today, or trying to. (therapist acknowledges) I have four first-edition books, written by Bill Russell, the basketball player.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah. But, one of them I have a duplicate of, so that one got mold on it. So that's good. But his first-ever book got mold on it, too. Like, the pages are a little desiccated, so I'm testing (on the one I have a copy of) a procedure which seems to take some... It didn't seem very effective, like it would damage the book. So I've tested one procedure on that; the other one, I'm just putting it in the sun. I have a bunch of like, records and stuff, I aggregated on some Craigslist splurge as well. They developed a little mold underneath, to my chagrin.

THERAPIST: Where do you keep them? [00:07:37]

CLIENT: They're in the basement. I used to keep them in my room, but then at New Years, I like, I made my room kind of like this, pretty, like... you know, spacious and you only have... I mean besides the books, you only have what you really need. I guess I do have a bookcase, too. But it's not as big and like imposing. Did I start seeing you around New Year's, or was that...?

THERAPIST: Before!

CLIENT: Before. So maybe I was influenced; who knows?

THERAPIST: Yeah, December. (pause) Oh, you were sort of influenced by the make-up of this room? (client affirms)

(pause 00:08:33 to 00:08:53)

CLIENT: Yeah, I can't say that I have any of my struggles today.

THERAPIST: Hmm! (pause) Where are you at? Yeah, where just... What's going on?

CLIENT: (laughs) I'm thinking... Since I don't have anything, I'm just going to like pick, pick at you, pick on you, like...

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: If you don't provide like, a prompt or something.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. Are you waiting for a prompt from me? Yeah, what are you feel right... Yeah, what do you feel about... You come in, you don't have, you feel like there is not a struggle to talk about and I'm not saying much. What... How does that... You know, what does that mean to you? What do you do with it? What do you feel?

CLIENT: Are you trying to create problems? [00:09:54]

THERAPIST: No, no! I mean, there might be something. Could be a problem, I don't know.

CLIENT: I don't have to furnish my anguish for you. (both laugh) Let me see... I feel, well, it was funny, because I was thinking I don't really have something to just throw out there. (therapist affirms) Or that I've, that comes to mind, so... My first thought is like, I don't know what I was thinking, but it was something on you. Oh, yeah. So I was thinking of like, going after (ph) you, picking or something.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: I mean, that just came to mind. And then I laughed and got myself an (inaudible). But that's what was happening.

THERAPIST: Yeah, but, particularly because I wasn't giving a problem to... or is it because...

CLIENT: There is nothing else to do; for me. If I'm the only one talking. [00:10:52]

THERAPIST: Well, what, yeah. What do you got, what do you got for me?

CLIENT: I got hairy legs.

THERAPIST: (chuckles)

CLIENT: (inaudible)

THERAPIST: When you started off, you started off pretty softly on me with deep (inaudible) comment.

CLIENT: You're right. (chuckles) Oh, okay.

(pause 00:11:09 to 00:11:37)

I was thinking of (inaudible) like, our relationship in terms of like, an access of, like professionalism and sort of loose rapport and the effectiveness of each, at least from my subjective point of view, and how it's progressed over time and how it might progress. But I don't think it's really valuable to talk about a relationship in terms that try to define it or analyze it, especially like, with the person, as it's going on.

THERAPIST: Well, so in a way, though, you're saying, is a way of trying to define what feels better, though. I mean, maybe it's, yeah, it's analyzing, but it's also telling a bit about what feels good and what doesn't. I mean, it seems like... seems like relevant for the sake of how you feel things are developing. [00:12:37]

CLIENT: Yeah, one thing I'm sure of, I can't really be a pity case. I can't, I don't think that's any form of effective therapy. I don't think pity helps people, unless it's... No, even then. Even if it were like, a millionaire that takes pity on some poor person, gives him like $500,000. I don't think that really helps him in the sense that we're dealing with here. (pause) And I'm not saying I necessarily take that from our relationship. But that's one thing I could say with some certainty.

(pause 00:13:20 to 00:13:37]

THERAPIST: In what sense? (ph)

CLIENT: No... (laughs). You're not ready, are you?

THERAPIST: Huh?

CLIENT: That, I could say something offensive, but I'm not going to. So... I mean, I'm just going to like, come here and eggbeater, like vacillate, unless you give me something to chew on.

THERAPIST: Yeah! What do you need? What do you need? Something to chew on...

CLIENT: Well, it's just... I'm in like a glass jar here. And so, I mean, I can entertain for a certain amount of time, but I need some food or some air or something.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. Some... Do you feel like you have to deliver something or...?

CLIENT: Uhhhh... I would like...

THERAPIST: ...come in with problems or...?

CLIENT: I would like to, and there is this subtle pressure to come in with problems. I think, yeah. Which is, well I don't think it's inevitable, but it's there. Because it makes it easy. [00:14:41]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, anything from last time? Are you feeling...?

CLIENT: What did we do last time? Tuesday. Yeah. Oh, yeah, it was pretty random. No. I didn't enjoy last time that much. It was okay. You know... Yeah, if it's good. If an experience is any good, it just sort of dissolves and you don't really... (pause) no that's... I don't remember much specifically from that, last time.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. I'm wondering, do you ever, at any time, feel like you're under my thumb in some way? [00:15:47]

CLIENT: No. I mean, I sense that you feel superior to me, but I, at times, but I don't, I mean you're quite obliging. I don't feel under your thumb.

THERAPIST: Superior to you, okay. (client affirms) In what way do you notice... Do you (inaudible)? Uh, superior to me...

CLIENT: (pause) I don't think I can answer that.

THERAPIST: Well, because, you know, you were talking about this last time, that relationships inevitably start to feel to you like there is a point in time where you start to feel some degree of conflict and you don't know where to go with it. You know... Some degree of conflict comes up and I think you feel a lot inside about it, about your sense of how well you feel like you relate or belong with another person, how good the relationship feels between you two, or among a group of people. (client responds) [00:17:03]

And... And what I heard you saying, like how last time (and it's inevitable to happen in any kind of relationship, it seems to me), you're sort of saying is like, some rancor might come up and you're kind of left going, "What did the fuck do I do?" You feel... Like if somebody, you feel slighted or you feel put off by something, you're kind of stuck in this position of not knowing what to do. Do you come on hard, do you kind of just swallow it, do you... (client affirms).

CLIENT: I guess I did have a thought on that. I think the undercurrent of that sort of has to do with your standing and status in society. Like, if I were in, I have been in positions where I'm better regarded and on a better track. In those situations, I can be who I am and other people will kind of, they have to come into step with me; or if they don't, then I'm, you know, I'm on a trajectory where I can, I have things to chew on, so to speak. I'm advancing in a particular direction and it doesn't matter. [00:18:15]

But where I am now, I'm sort of vulnerable and lacking structure in my (inaudible). So every relationship I make and break, it's just part of a constant constellation. I don't... a very weak constellation, too. I mean, they're not, these people aren't, these spheres aren't necessarily related to each other. You know, sporadic work here, you know, relationship with that employer, relationship with this or that person at church. There is nothing, the only thing holding them together is my own volition and whimsy, basically.

THERAPIST: You know, one thing that I'm just thinking about (and maybe this, when you said, kind of, my standing in society and yours) is that, you know, one thing that I think that you've come here for is to, or it seems to me, one of the things that's going on in your life is like, what kind of life you want to live, and that right now, you feel that you've had this fall from grace, you know? [00:19:38]

You feel like this rising kind of star, this academic kind of...

CLIENT: Wunderkind...

THERAPIST: Yeah, wunderkind, or whatever, you know? (both laugh) It's kind of like, this guy that's going to make things happen and then, I think with... I mean, you went to Grinnell (sp), for Christ's sake. You were going to go to Birmingham and like, you know, with all this kind of almost a... not celebrity, but it's... certainly has a lot of standing in society.

I think... I don't know what happened with all of that for you. I feel like, in a way... it was in some way, I think you were trying to make a life that felt like it was your own and (client affirms) and didn't want it to feel like it was your mom's vision of your life or some way that to... I don't know... live up to people's hopes and expectations for you. That's very general and... but here you are, and you're standing in a position, and you feel... I think you feel kind of bad about where you sit. Not that... at least in terms of how you feel like you stand in other people's eyes. I mean, certainly your family's, that you feel that there is like this kind of... You know, your parents saying stuff like, "We've given up on you," or your mom is saying stuff. [00:21:20]

I mean, Jesus, how are you supposed to feel? Terrible! And I think, you know, what's tricky about it, is that you've come here for some help, I think, about how to build a life that feels like it's yours, and I think, taps into what abilities and talents and interests you do have, but that it's somewhat complicated for you. I'm not sure I'm understanding completely, but I think you've come here to try to... among other things, to have that.

I can only imagine, of course, you want to know what do I think of you and do I look down on you and do I feel superior to you and that there is some sort of difference. Here I am in this position of, you know, of... I'm "professional," and in the kind of mainstream of society in some way that you feel you're not.

(pause 00:22:32 to 00:22:52)

Just to say one other thing. I think even asking for help might be a complicated and kind of exposing thing for you, maybe leaving you feeling a little bit vulnerable. Here you are, this really super bright guy and has a lot going for him, can do a lot of things and you're struggling.

(pause 00:23:14 to 00:25:04)

CLIENT: I suspect we come here with similar agendas, in that I mean you're... I gather you're kind of starting up a practice here and, I mean, I imagine you think of, maybe you think of helping people out of psychologist stuff, but being able to really connect and help people. Also, you know, make some good money and also look kind of spiffy doing it. So those are pretty positive objectives.

I think I come here with positive objectives as well, although they are different. I mean, I think, you know, a good connection in any sort of setting, therapeutic or otherwise, is a good way to illuminate the rest of your interactions or experience during the week in a very fragmented culture. It's reliable, or it's great to have a reliable relationship of any sort. [00:26:05]

So what I mean is, I don't... You said I might feel vulnerable seeking help, but whether or not I need help, I don't know if I'm even capable of seeking it. You know, I seek help insomuch as like somebody would get water from a faucet; and it's there, you can use. But I don't expect to be, I mean, I don't (therapist affirms) I don't understand help as a concept, really.

THERAPIST: I don't think you got much help in certain important things that were going on in trying to determine your own life, in building your own life.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Yeah, I think my parents may have had attachment issues. When I first started socializing in middle school, I was calling people on the phone and my dad actually cut the phone line in my room, surreptitiously. So I didn't have phone access, except through the phone in the living room, which I know, because my mother ratted him out (ph). But my mother similarly, she's shown clear indications that she's not wanting me to go away or grow up or... In my opinion, she doesn't process me as an adult. Maybe that's true of many mothers, but I don't... I don't know how to advance an adult relationship with her. [00:27:49]

THERAPIST: Hmm. Yeah, in some ways, they were obstructive.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Yeah, my dad never taught me to shave or anything, either. I never got that. I don't know if he did... I had a recent thought (ph). Maybe he had plans for when I was in high school. Like, he might have... He was pretty busy in his early life with the medical profession, and maybe he was thinking that he'd get some parenting in in high school. He just wasn't able to, because I was away. (pause) In that case, my other siblings have a very different relationship with my parents. They seem to be more professional.

(pause 00:28:42 to 00:29:12)

THERAPIST: Yeah, I just have the sense that you were left to sort this all out yourself. I mean, from what you were going through when you went to Lawrenceville, as well as some of the things that came up at Grinnell... I guess I'm thinking about the disappointment you felt at Lawrenceville, of the place and what you had hoped it would be and what it was. (pause) And just... You say you don't expect help.

(pause 00:29:54 to 00:20:35)

CLIENT: I think some subtle (inaudible) is also vacillating on this hedge or this sort of... this hill. It's like I'm walking on this thing, balancing. On the one hand, I've been a tyrant. Like, sort of in my first "incarnation," like an intellectual tyrant, at like a young age. In other words, I mean I don't, I don't say that with any duplicity. I just mean that, I was well regarded and I took that in hand, and there is presumption of a road of success to follow. But the expense was that I couldn't (perhaps because that, or because of other reasons), I couldn't generate familiar relationships with anyone. So there is that. [00:31:41]

Now where I am, I don't think I hold myself to any standard, or that's the other side of it. There are no real standards. I rebel against any standards that come my way, and I'm loose and totally accepting. I'm active in the church and, you know, sort of non-judgment is almost prerequisite. So I don't even have, on that side of things, sort of internal prejudices or tastes when it comes to how people behave, how other people behave, who they are. I don't have those kind of rank judgments. Just sort of take everything in, also relevantly accept whatever treatment is doled out upon... I seem able to connect with people, but... You know like, I've expressed some ire at the form most relationships take. I mean, if you don't have any leverage, or if you don't have... standards or... (therapist affirms)

(pause 00:33:00 to 00:33:40)

THERAPIST: Yeah, I'm stuck on the idea that you were an intellectual tyrant, intellectual tyrant. (pause) Can you say something about that?

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, through, I mean, through 10th grade... You know, I was better than everyone around me. I knew it and if they didn't know it, they'd come to know it; I mean, that's it. So, and that's what it's made of. In 11th and 12th grade, I sort of, I just, I think I... I broke down without any social network, that I didn't have the family there. Like I had a very good family, one that perhaps justified arrogance. But without that familiar backdrop, I think I sort of spent my best efforts sort of, lost initiative in ways I couldn't completely hedge against emotionally. I mean, I still coasted on a reputation, basically, maybe in the first year I was at Lawrenceville, but... (pause) I really don't know what to say about that, but I basically coasted. (therapist affirms) [00:35:25]

THERAPIST: (pause) Yeah, you say that you... you were the best in the... How did you put it? You were the best in your...

CLIENT: I don't think I was the best, but I... It was just a singular focus. They...

(pause 00:36:05 to 00:36:31)

THERAPIST: Either the top of the class kind of experience, that thing? Yeah. What was it like, among your peers? (pause) Was there rancor?

CLIENT: (pause) I'd say it was typically awkward, both for people at that age and for people who are more academically inclined.

(pause 00:37:05 to 00:37:44)

THERAPIST: What did you just, you seemed like stuck on something, are you just imagining...?

CLIENT: I was trying to phrase something.

(pause 00:37:50 to 00:38:14)

I guess what I was getting at earlier, is I mean, sometimes you don't want to talk about yourself. You dutifully bring the conversation back around to me, but I'm not sure I want to talk about myself 100% of the time. (therapist affirms) It's almost like inbreeding. It's wrong in the same way.

THERAPIST: Inbreeding, huh?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Masturbating?

CLIENT: That's different. (pause) Yeah, actually I've got good connection.

THERAPIST: (pause) Makes me think about the danger of self-love that you... almost a... I guess what I'm thinking of is that, it's feeling very high on your abilities as a student. (client affirms) And something that you feel around masturbating, about... I don't know if, you characterized it, at least to me, as sort of a lack of discipline that you didn't want to... (client affirms) (pause) Is it like, it's incongruent with virtue and...?

CLIENT: Incongruent with integrity. [00:40:10]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I... Okay. Okay.

CLIENT: (pause) Unfulfilled (ph).

THERAPIST: (pause) Yeah. Whereas being like, feeling kind of superior is like... incongruent with humility and kind of acceptance and non-judgment?

(pause 00:45:00 to 00:45:17) Maybe I'm confusing the matter. I don't know. But something about...

CLIENT: (pause) Did you go here, did you go to Brown?

THERAPIST: Yeah. How come?

CLIENT: I don't know. I'm not sure. (pause) You laughed at that joke. (both laugh)

THERAPIST: I liked that joke. (laughs) What was the other school?

CLIENT: Fitchburg State.

THERAPIST: Fitchburg State. Yeah. It was your grandfather that made the joke? Did he go to Brown?

CLIENT: I think he went to Fitchburg.

THERAPIST: That's cool.

CLIENT: If I was like him, though, I would have said Brown when he asked what the other school was (chuckles) or something. Yeah, his grandfather or his, yeah, so my grandfather's grandfather, I think went to Birmingham, too. He went to Scotland.

(pause 00:42:47 to 00:43:32)

Yeah, people sure are funny. That's all I'm thinking right now, if you're so curious. Like, you know about that guy? He's like one of the best violin players? He plays like, a Stradivarius, like a priceless violin, in the subway station, like three hours. He got like $3 or something, and like only one kid stopped to like, listen to him. He's like, the greatest violin player, and he was playing there; but no one noticed, just because they... I don't know! I mean, a train station is not the ideal place, but still, they just weren't open to his music because of presumptions they had about it, or presumptions they weren't equipped with. (therapist affirms) To me, I feel that way a little bit about college.

THERAPIST: Yeah, what, in what way? [00:44:43]

CLIENT: Well, I think right now it's a pretty inflated institution. Like, it's valuable in a lot of intangible ways, to go to college; but the amounts that you have to pay, like many schools (ph) and... the looseness of the professors in many cases. I just feel it's a very diluted... Institutions have very diluted purposes, a lot of them. Not all of them, but... Like college in general is pretty overrated, especially... certain very prestigious places. (pause) But at the same time, it's almost prerequisite that you go through the motions or you... Going to these prestigious places equips you with a very, very easy ride. [00:45:44]

THERAPIST: (pause) Yeah, once you leave, the world is kind of your oyster?

CLIENT: Maybe. Myself, I know when I had to stop going to college. I mean, it comes to me in odd moments, although I have a pretty difficult life, but I know I... I couldn't go. It's true, the world is your oyster, but for me, I know I felt like it was empty of heart. (therapist responds) The whole conveyer belt thing. Like, I remember in college, I'm thinking of, like I'm writing resumes now for jobs.

THERAPIST: You're writing what?

CLIENT: Resumes. You know, in college, I could just sign up for like, this club, this club, this club, I could be the head of this club, it was like that (snaps fingers). And probably, like, or at least in high school, I mean, many of them might not even meet that often. But I was a Big Brother in high school. Like, I mentored a little kid. He was ten years old and disadvantaged, all that crap. And that sounds really great, right? But, I mean, I just had to reach out for it; it was easy.

Whereas now, I mean, am I going to have to get like, an internship and like, dedicate eight months of my life to being a slave in order to like, prove that I have some worth in whatever field? It's kind of strange. (therapist affirms) I mean, I... yeah. I meet a lot of people from Brown, both through the church and just around this area. I don't envy them, because they lack like, a connection to how the world works and the world outside their heads. But in another sense, they do kind of have, like the world is... I wouldn't say it's their oyster, I'd say the world is splayed out. It's unusual, it's... There is something to that phenomenon of preconceptions or, you know, "buzz words" (not buzz words, but you know what I mean, sort of... the "hot item,"). (therapist affirms)

(pause 00:48:20 to 00:48:33)

(chuckles to self)

THERAPIST: The hot item?

CLIENT: I was thinking of this kid. We had an argument over whether the wars in the Middle East were justified, whatever. This kid's position was, you know, if you were alive during that time, you were responsible. You know, you can't condemn it without also recognizing your own guilt and ta da ta da. But one of the things he posted was that, you know, someone says, "Well, did you ever pay taxes?" Because he was very haughty about it. You know, if you paid taxes. He said, "No, I've never paid taxes. I've been in college the whole time. I haven't paid a single dollar of taxes." I thought, "We'll see what happens when the tax man comes around!" (chuckles) So, good for you, haven't paid a single dollar of tax, (inaudible) son of a bitch.

THERAPIST: But the conveyer belt...? Lacked heart, lacked... [00:49:40]

CLIENT: I think I regret calling it that.

THERAPIST: Why? Why, yeah.

CLIENT: Let's not call it that. Well...

THERAPIST: Heart or the conveyer belt?

CLIENT: Conveyer belt. Yeah. It seemed to lack a substance to me, and that may have been because I didn't feel in control of it. I sort of felt drifting along. Yeah, I guess... I guess it's not worth anything unless you know you aren't.

THERAPIST: Huh! Yeah.

CLIENT: So I mean I... yeah.

THERAPIST: It's mechanical.

CLIENT: No matter what I did, I mean, I... In a sense I didn't even deserve to get nominated to Birmingham. I just talked a pretty good game. You know, I hadn't even tried that hard at Grinnell. And yet still there I was like, the second person nominated in my... So it may convey a sense, or it may have conveyed a sense of being like... You know, I couldn't even stop this if I tried. I didn't even want to go to college! I wanted it, like after, I think. (therapist responds) [00:50:50]

I didn't consider Grinnell at all prestigious. I thought it was the anti-prestige like, that's what they kind of touted themselves as, like a community... everyone's valuable, blah, blah, blah. High and mighty, you know, (inaudible) prestigious, it sort of said. I mean, I didn't want to go to Ivy League schools, especially because I had seen the people who went to those kind of schools. I had grown up with them and I didn't respect them.

THERAPIST: Huh. Yeah, yeah. What's, it sounds to me like, I know we have to stop, but it sounds to me like you didn't have that "skin in the game" kind of feeling. This is mine, this is from my heart. Yeah, almost like it was just the next in a series of steps. I mean, to put it very simply, and I know it's a lot more complicated in that.

CLIENT: All right.

THERAPIST: What, what?

CLIENT: No. Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay! Yeah. Have a nice weekend.

CLIENT: Okay.

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