TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: (joined in progress) (inaudible)

THERAPIST: What's that?

CLIENT: Nothing.

THERAPIST: (chuckles) Everything all right?

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) This is carrying me to new bicycling heights.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: Yeah. It's the same with drivers everywhere.

THERAPIST: It's not easy; Providence is such an unfriendly bike town.

CLIENT: Yeah. I broke a few spokes on one of the wheels, this bike I'd gotten, a new bike and so I couldn't really ride as aggressively as I wanted to. Somehow, people picked up on it, because like, no one ever says anything usually, except when I got in a fight with like, a motorcycle gang after an exchange. But like, when I had the spokes broken, I had to ride slower, I was like a wounded animal. People would just like, hurl insults at me and they (inaudible). (therapist acknowledges) You know, "Get off the road!" and like speed up and all that stuff. [00:01:06]

THERAPIST: Oh, really? (client affirms) Almost like they perceive weakness or something?

CLIENT: Yeah. Without consciously recognizing it as such.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah. How long does it take you?

CLIENT: Ah... 18 minutes and 20 seconds.

THERAPIST: Is that right? That's fast! Because... where are you coming from?

CLIENT: Everett.

THERAPIST: You did that in 20 minutes? (client affirms) Holy cow! How many miles is that? Do you know?

CLIENT: 5 1/2. (therapist affirms) Riding the subway is not that good, but with the traffic...

THERAPIST: That's a pretty good clip.

CLIENT: Traffic lights, it's respectable.

THERAPIST: I'll say.

CLIENT: Yes, it's been nice like, we've had a lot of nice weather. [00:02:10]

THERAPIST: I probably should be offering you some water. Do you want some water?

CLIENT: Okay. (pause) Thank you.

THERAPIST: Oh, look, if you ever want to help yourself, there is... (audio fades to inaudible) glasses here. So this is my side (inaudible), all (inaudible).

CLIENT: That's nice, although I wonder if (inaudible).

THERAPIST: (inaudible) You know, a lot of places will (inaudible).

CLIENT: (chuckles)

THERPIST: I mean, I always have something. (door closes, audio resumes) [00:03:23]

CLIENT: I think this place of yours is a respectable establishment: water glasses!

THERAPIST: Well other places will have the... you know, they'll have like water coolers, and we just never do that.

CLIENT: (mutters under breath: "Could damage (inaudible).") (pause) What's it like, you're like, having a co-worker showing up. It just strikes me, it would have to be like messing our routine up. Psychotherapists like, how they work as co-workers? (therapist affirms) I mean, it could be worse (ph). I haven't really processed it, but like...What are you like, overly proprietary to each other all the time, or you might be like, secretly hate each other but like it comes up in weird ways or if you were like really academic you might like, bicker and like start analyzing each other's like (therapist chuckles and affirms) statements on like... yeah. [00:04:24]

THERAPIST: It's all (inaudible).

CLIENT: Get some help! (laughs) (inaudible)

THERAPIST: Yeah, he's a good guy, Jimmy's a good guy. We don't see a lot of each other all the time. (client acknowledges) Yeah, I mean... It's not a real, kind of... it's a different work place, you know?

CLIENT: It's not very collegial, it's more keep to yourself or...?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean, not for any reason, just because it's the nature of this space. It's not, you know, it's not like we're on a computer and, where you go, "Hey, how's..." you know... (client affirms) "How's the morning going?" or something like that. Did you see this (inaudible/blocked)

CLIENT: (inaudible/blocked)

THERAPIST: It's different, it's different. Especially with a (inaudible), you know, the appointment kind of thing. [00:05:23]

CLIENT: My cousin had a roommate who like... I don't know, she might still be living with her, but like... Someone who, whenever she would come home from work or whatever, if the person doesn't like common space, they would go back to their room. Then she'd want to reach out and like bond with the other person, but she felt like (laughs) when the other girl came back, she wanted to like, close the door and go into her room. I (inaudible) fun associate with that, when she says that. But I'm happy, the living arrangement I have now is pretty good. The new roommate is like, she's like a "star," "for me." You know, I've tried marijuana myself and I don't think it's a bad thing, but I do notice certain tendencies. [00:06:23]

Like, I've had several roommates who've smoked in the past. There is something about dishes; like, they... maybe it's me and I'm crazy; maybe that's also a possibility. But like, it seems like people who smoke marijuana have, they like, dishes just like, don't register. Like, strange things happen with the dishes, even if you like talk to them specifically, like getting down into nitty-gritty. Like at some point they like forget dishes are theirs, they do like half of what they've accumulated and like assume the rest are yours and it's like it gets all mixed up. (therapist affirms) It's a big emotional knot centered around the sink.

THERAPIST: Do you guys have a dishwasher?

CLIENT: We do.

THERAPIST: You do? And is it still...?

CLIENT: Well, I notice, here is the new thing. I'm someone who's not going to hold onto suspicion. I think I've lived many years of my life like, analyzing suspicions and like mental leads on other people's shortcomings, and holding them tight and not letting go. I mean, it comes out eventually. Like, they, there is some level of conflict and then... It's like carrying a gun. Like, if you carry a gun, eventually you're going to like, get into some sort of squabble and get into trouble, because you're like armed with this sense of power or entitlement and someone like offends you in some small way; whatever. But in the same way... I don't know why, how I got here, but... [00:07:47]

I used to hold onto people's shortcomings and having to pin down someone I'd want to fight with. When the conflict would come out, I'd unleash like, a battery; from their point of view, out of like nowhere. They'd just be like, devastated. (therapist acknowledges) And they'd get over it, because I mean people are resilient, but I would retain (inaudible) and I think I just... And I didn't think it (inaudible) better. So I'm at least (ph) the dishes is...

Yeah, so if I see something amiss, like the cups... The reason they have like, lots of coffee stains on the bottom, or just I'd notice like, every cup had a coffee stain on the bottom and some of the knives have like stains on them. I mean, she might not realize that you have to like rinse them off before you put them in the dishwasher (therapist affirms), you have to make sure the sediment... Your dishwasher is ineffective (ph) (inaudible), compared to washing the dishes; they're not that much better. (therapist affirms) [00:08:43]

But you know, I don't suppose that that's her like opinion. Until I like actually think about the dishes and how they're... when I do them and when other people might have done them and all that stuff, and keep track of it in my head and keep (inaudible), which I'm not going to do any of that. Until I do that, I'm not going to be sure that it's hers.

THERAPIST: Oh, you're not sure, what it started doing, she... sort of noticing when she moved in?

CLIENT: Well, just yesterday I noticed, since she moved in like, three weeks ago, four weeks ago. (therapist affirms) I had my cousins over the other night, did like a role-playing game. It was good, because I mean, my apartment is actually nice now. I mean, never mind that I, I mean I have trouble finding money to keep it, but like, it's a nice apartment, like it really looks nice. So it was good. [00:09:39]

I had three of my cousins over and we sort of drank beers and we had two people video chat. For me it's like a sparse interaction, I think. Like, I enjoy being with these people and it's something they want to do, but it's not very... Like, you can have very dense and like dense conversations with people or dense experiences; but this is just sparse and dispersed, I think. (therapist acknowledges) It was good, though. One of my cousins stayed over and we played a little bit of video game this morning and played some music, too, which was good.

THERAPIST: Uh-hm. So the conversation was... What did you say about the conversation?

CLIENT: Oh, sparse. Like, dispersed, just... because there is one guy, who's the oldest cousin among us, who's like the Dungeon Master and he described the world. I think I described this to you, right? The process of how I got involved in Dungeons & Dragons or whatever? [00:10:52]

THERAPIST: No. Is it Dungeons & Dragons (inaudible)?

CLIENT: I guess so, yeah. But... Well, I won't give any caveats, I just... It's a way to get together with my cousins, and my attempts to get us together did not succeed. They didn't seem to want to do this, so, it's something we can... It's a way to come into contact with them, I guess, in our adult lives.

THERAPIST: And the older cousin ends up being the Dungeon Master?

CLIENT: Yeah. It's interesting because this session I realized like... it's really for him. I mean, people enjoy it and I'm inclined to thank him for organizing it, but it's really for him. Like, he's putting a lot of thought into these worlds and like, he'll draw a seal to a pendant that some dead mage left behind, and he invented a cult, a religious cult which happens to share the name of a workplace which he is applying to. (laughs) We didn't realize that until last night. [00:11:59]

THERAPIST: But yeah. This notion that he's, that he's doing it for himself, that he's getting the experiences, he's imagining he's kind of, I don't think you've characterized this, in using you guys, but there is some kind of element in that. And I was thinking that, how you take part in it, if you know he's... how do you end up feeling about it?

CLIENT: Yeah. So, part of the reason I invited everyone to my house was because I... I guess I want to be the center, or something. You know, we've done it at his house before and we've done it... He'd set up the video cam and (blocked), he had like, 14 video jacks or something! I was like, I end up... I don't know what I do. [00:12:51]

THERAPIST: Do you guys all do it remotely?

CLIENT: Usually. We've done two in-person meetings. So one per week for the virtual games and... Yeah, so we went out to a nice Brazilian place and... Not nice, just all you can eat. Yeah, so I invite people to my place. It was kind of hard, like... the guy I played football... Remember football? Thanksgiving football? It was the (inaud) of stillness (ph) and this guy that... He was like, whining about like the adults not counting to "three-Mississippi" or something? (therapist affirms) He ended up staying home, although he could have easily come.

But like, I called him, just to say like, "Hey are you coming?" Because I'd sent out an e-mail saying like, specifically like, "Okay, so I heard some enthusiasm. If you're like going to join us, (inaudible)." Obviously he'd go crazy (ph), and I could hear, "Da ta da ta da, logistics, I had such to do..." Like, "Carl, are you coming?" I might have even said it twice, and letting him know he didn't respond. So I just called him and, didn't respond after twice calling, sent you a text back saying like, "I'm going to come and video (ph) chat, try calling you." Still didn't answer. So like, I don't know if he was kind of... [00:14:08]

Maybe because I'm always late to the video chats, he's kind of like a very... He was like an Eagle Scout or whatever? He's into like, regimented adherence to rules. (therapist affirms) Also he's the son of the patriarch of my father's side of the family, so I'm sure he feels some sort of need to lead. When we were playing football, he would try to be a good quarterback, but he was terrible! He was really horrible! And so... it becomes necessary to sort of...

THERAPIST: Get along, yeah, yeah. (ph)

CLIENT: (pause) Sort of upbeat (ph), not pay attention to it very much. Like, when someone else gives a suggestion, emphasize, "That's a good suggestion," if it is good. I mean, if he gave a good suggestion, you say, you know, "That's good," but usually they're terrible. And that involves him being like the guy I keep (inaudible); it's just terrible. (chuckles) [00:15:15]

THERAPIST: I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're real careful around him in a certain way?

CLIENT: Careful? I... no. I'm trying to communicate these are just like, tiny examples, because that's all I have right now, but... I guess why he didn't come. It would be an (inaudible/ blocked/ cut off)

THERAPIST: What are you sort of saying, like things have to go his, kind of like his way and it's hard then that... what happens if you wanted another way?

CLIENT: He's not very flexible as a person, but I mean, he has the right to be however he wants. (therapist affirms) You know? It's not an obstacle to me. (pause) Yeah, inflexible, before the easiest to get around (ph). [00:16:17]

(pause) It's like, I guess I was pitching (ph) on the fact that, I mean they can, my cousins can sort of unite behind my, the older cousin's banner, but not so much behind me, in this case at least or with the (inaud); I don't know. (pause) Like with football, I'm not very good, but, you know, I just have this sort of trepidation about... I don't know, "indulge me" or something like that.

THERAPIST: They'll get behind the older cousin's banner, but not yours?

CLIENT: Right! It's almost like James Jones (ph) (inaud). (laughs) I never have! (laughs) [00:17:19]

THERAPIST: Yeah, no, I (inaudible).

CLIENT: And I sense judgment from, you know, the son of my aunt, like you're... Seth, like he has a good job, he's going into like biomedical engineering, he got accepted to like the second most promising job for the future. He's like an orderly person. The other cousin is a software engineer, the younger cousin is going back to school after taking some time off. But especially from the cousin who's around my age, who's like... You know, I sensed judgment possibly trickling down from the parents, but possibly also from his own life experience, in terms of when... I mean, they know I have potential, that I had opportunities. I've thrown away more than most people ever had a chance at. (therapist affirms) So that's something.

THERAPIST: That's something; what is it? [00:18:17]

CLIENT: It makes... off-hand, I'd say it probably makes... sort of respectful relationships... it sort of allows (inaudible) to interfere with those respectful relationships or natural relationships; I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Does it feel maybe like it de-legitimizes you in some way? Or you feel it does?

CLIENT: De-legitimizes... I'm not legitimate; I have to think about what...

THERAPIST: Yeah, I was thinking just in terms of them wanting you to, well... you know, follow, uh, get behind your banner. [00:19:22]

CLIENT: Yeah, sure. A credibility issue. (therapist affirms) Yeah, it certainly makes me feel... I mean, I'm sort of conscious of it. (pause) Yeah, definitely, definitely. Oh, yeah, yeah.

My good cousin, Victoria, she recently... I mean I talk to her and I give her a call, kind of like one of our sessions where I describe some sexual escapade (chuckles). I sort of (inaudible) for her to meet a friend of mine. He was going to USC, he was a nice guy. I made a comment like, he's... You know, he's probably about half as smart, but twice as nice as you are. (laughs)

THERAPIST: She said that to you? [00:20:20]

CLIENT: No, I said that to her! (therapist affirms) I said, "He's probably half as smart as you, but twice as nice." I don't know; it could have been anything in conversation, but she wrote me an e-mail, saying like, "Hey, you know, I felt sad after our conversation and so I'm writing to you." But in the writing, I didn't get a sense of what had made her sad.

It contained three paragraphs. The last was about the thing I said, saying like... and it's true that I can't find the words for it, but it's, what I said to her when she challenged me on the, you know, "half as nice," she said, "I try to be nice." I said, "Yes, but you have too much intellect to absorb things without judgment." It's just not... I mean, she holds herself to very, like the rigors that she subjects herself to, I think make it very difficult for her to truly sympathize with someone who's maybe not as disciplined. [00:21:25]

And so it's a weird thing, because I think it was true. I sort of relished saying it, because it's one of those things that's true and kind twisted, but it's true. But it's, uh... I mean, it's also true that she's almost as perfect as someone could be. I mean, she tries very hard to be compassionate. She always holds things, she withholds her judgment verbally, though I know it's occurring until she's sort of processed something and looked at all the possible takes on it.

THERAPIST: You sound like you admire her, admire this in her. (client affirms) This ability to kind of have a powerful intellect, but remain in some ways... is it like, remain... it's kind of difficult to be that smart and remain decent. (client affirms) Humble? I don't know, humble; but...

CLIENT: Like honorable (inaudible)

THERAPIST: Honorable! (blocked) [00:22:30]

CLIENT: Yeah, she's someone that like, I've been in her head practically because... well not because anything, I just know that. For me, I can't even stand to... That's part of what fuels my restlessness, is that I've been someone who's been incredibly considerate and very passive and very sympathetic; and I've gotten hurt, I think, for it. But also, it's difficult, it's very slow, every decision is slow, every... I think she's getting better, I mean, she's speeding up. But we sort of went through the same thing, I mean, very slow to speak, slow to make decisions, slow to judge; or if judging, do it in sort of a "devil's argument," I guess.

But it's a very, it's a mentally fraught (ph)... like it's a very... tumultuous inner life, I think. For her, that's the (inaudible), I mean she's very demure. She's studying classics. I think that gets her other badge, talk about all these ideals of the Grecian character and things. I think that probably helps. [00:24:00]

The last paragraph was something, though. She said, "I hope you, I hope you consider me an acceptable confidante," which of course, I do, because I guess when I said she's judgmental and she assumed... From her letter, it sounded like she assumed that I felt judged by her or something, which wasn't the case; or I mean, if it's there, it doesn't bother me. You know, that I kind of relish offending her sensibilities. I live a profane, by her point of view, lifestyle.

The second paragraph was longer, the meat of it was like... So I had raised this problem, where when I came to friends living (ph) in Amherst, I was like, one of two young people there. So in the year since I took on like, this younger group, there is now like quite a few young people, which is good for me. But, by the same token, I'm bringing in competition, so there were like two other guys who were like legitimate competitors in my territory. [00:25:09]

So I'd talk to her about this, and like one of the guys was like a Brown TA and like, you know, I'd seen him hug girls that I've been sort of developing relationships with and Charlie (ph), he's probably, he's probably tapped (ph) some like, sophomore ass, or something, you know, undergraduate ass. But he's just a smooth, sort of self-absorbed guy, cohesive, together. That's how I described him to her in some of our interactions.

So in this e-mail back, she wrote, "You know, so in the sense that, you know, you want to compete with this guy, you should understand that, I mean... I remember a conversation we had, where you told me about how going to college and you know, getting a job and starting a family, it's all very arbitrary, and how it's not something you necessarily need to follow. I respect you for that. But at the same time, you should recognize that you're part of society, and so you're subject to those values. This arbitrary path you avoid, or the arbitrary path you take, just differing from the normative values (that's not her word, but...), differing from the normative values you, it could be a lonely experience, because you're still subject to these. People still look at things in terms of what's arbitrary, even if it is arbitrary, it doesn't mean it's meaningless." (therapist affirms) [00:26:49]

And so she said, you know, this guy who's at Brown and has a plan, he like volunteers in Africa for peace work and he has a plan. She said, in a sense, "I don't think you're going to compete with him." (pause) And she said, "For me, for instance, you know, I'm someone who doesn't value physical appearance very much. I've always spent, not spent much time with it. I don't see why it should be important to what other people think, but... But I still want to be valued for my appearance, even though I don't put much time into it."

THERAPIST: She said this, or you or...?

CLIENT: She said that. (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, what do you think? [00:27:52]

CLIENT: (pause) So she was saying this was frustrating to her, that people... (inaudible) to connect. I don't know if she didn't say that... her words or not. My response was just, "So you're saying I should go to Brown and you should start fussing with make-up and your hair?"

I'm not sure what she was saying. I'm not sure whether she was trying to express like, a normative point of view like, "Get on the rails, here!" or whether she was saying, "We kind of share this experience of not wanting to pay attention to things we don't think are important, but suffering the pain for it." [00:28:58]

THERAPIST: Being subject to it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. What did you think about what she had to say? What did it...? You know, what...?

CLIENT: Well, I thought, sort of, "Oh, no!" You know, jeopardize this valuable relationship.

THERAPIST: Really? Huh!

CLIENT: I tried to... Well, I thought, how would I resolve that I'm alone (ph) (inaudible); I couldn't really e-mail about it, because I... The thing was, she said, she started the letter with, "So I felt sad after our conversation, so I wanted to talk to you or write to you. So I'm writing to you now." I didn't get a sense of exactly what had made her sad, so I didn't know what could make it right. I don't know if she was sad for me or if she was sad because of, you know, I criticized her or called her judgmental. [00:29:58]

I mean, she's one of the nicest people; but the fact is, she's incredibly smart and incredibly disciplined, so... (pause) I guess I'm sort of taking the lower side of the Nietzsche-an point of view that, you know, friendship is acceptance of each other's weaknesses or something, and I don't know if she's capable of that. I think she's relatively lonely, but she's also, she's going to be tremendously successful. I don't know.

"What do I think?" Yeah, I thought, "I don't know what to do with this." (therapist affirms) The easiest thing was just to send back that one lined question, to get more information: "So should I go to Brown, and you should fuss with your hair?" And she said, "Well, if you want to compete with the other guy." Which I thought was bogus! It doesn't really come into play that much, especially not in... [00:31:13]

THERAPIST: So it sounds like something she's trying, as you were saying, that she was trying to, get you "back on the rails"?

CLIENT: Yeah, eventually (ph) (inaudible). (therapist affirms) Yeah, her being sad equals me being sad about (inaudible). (pause) And I'm wondering whether my call was fair to her like, I also had a sense like, maybe she might like me in some way. Then, so talking about sex or loosely, not loosely, sort of boastingly, or sort of indifferently, talking it indifferently might have been an undercurrent to her discontent. [00:32:21]

THERAPIST: Yeah, you said that you were interested in kind of, you've liked kind of... I don't know if it's being provocative with her sexual exploits. (client chuckles) What is it in that for you, what's in it for you? What is it? What do you like about it? How (inaudible)?

CLIENT: Well, it's almost the best way to register changes I'm going through, because she's like an anchor or a starting point. (therapist affirms) I'm very familiar with, I'm very similar to why I am or was, and so it's a very good way to register. Like in a movie, if you show a snapshot of someone who is very innocent and I observe something, like ridiculous going on, it's much funnier than just observing something ridiculous. You take someone who is like observing it, they're the frame. (therapist affirms) So with her, she's pretty straight-laced, innocent and... not innocent, that's not fair; but she's straight-laced and wholesome and... [00:33:34]

THERAPIST: It's a... yeah, it frames it, it puts it in relation, your actions in relation to that... as opposed to it being alone.

CLIENT: Yeah. Definitely. And also, I called her, because I felt like a hollow shell. I mean, it just... I think I said as much with... I don't know what it was... to them, they...

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: Yeah. I chalked it up to coffee, but it's probably some combination of like masturbation and falling short with a woman or two; I have no idea. I did feel pretty bad... so I needed someone to connect with. Yeah, I guess it's different in that... If I were her, I might feel bad because when we talked, we used to be able to sift through things and figure things out and find common ground. But in this case, what I'm doing is saying, "Here is this crazy shit I'm doing. It's not obvious (ph)." (chuckles) Something like that. (therapist affirms) Because, maybe because... and maybe part of her pain is, I talked to her extensively about my opinions of institutions and Deerfield and... You know, she went to USC and, she's there now doing like research for the government and stuff, but... [00:35:22]

In a sense, I feel like she's stayed on a path that I've sort of jumped off (therapist affirms) and I may be trying to distinguish myself, because like, I can't, I'm not there anymore, I'm not there with her. We were together, in lockstep for a long time, but I'm not in the same boat anymore. And so it's absurd, I guess, from a evaluative point of view, from like an evaluatory (ph) point of view, it's absurd of me to say like... It'd be like if I said, like "Hey, I got arrested and then I spit in the cop's face and like, then they kicked me in the balls and like I was in my jail cell and this guy gave me like some (inaudible), so I decided to try it." It's like the same thing. I'm just differentiating myself, but I'm not trying to make it anything. [00:36:17]

I mean, obviously, differentiating myself from her is only going to make it much worse, but it doesn't seem to... In a way, it's sort of reaching out for love, in that sense, I suppose, because I'm... I'm testing that bond. I'm also... (therapist affirms) you know, I'm deliberately, that's, I guess, that's the joy of it. I'm deliberately ignoring the polarity and sort of emphasizing it at the same time. I'm saying, here is this, here is my profane life, which I mean, to normal people, is not that outrageous. But to her, it's a deviation. It's a deviation from... the better laid plans. So, I guess I'm sort of... yeah. [00:37:15]

It's like that... and I never liked this, it's something uncomfortable, it's in your gut (ph), but it's like when I was in boarding school, I learned this form of humor where you insult your peers. It's a form of intimacy, like you... (therapist affirms) I mean, the deeper (ph) you can insult each other and kind of, just let it slide I guess? It's... you say like, horrible things; not like horrible in terms of precise like deconstruction of someone's personality, but just profane, terrible things. It's the sort of, it's a signal of companionship. (therapist affirms), an uncomfortable one. In sort of the same way, I guess I'm doing that with her. (therapist affirms). (pause) But it would be nice if we would do things together. Yeah, we're not looking at, I'm not having her look at things together with me, though. [00:38:18]

THERAPIST: Yeah, no, I was thinking, do you want her to kind of understand something about what you're doing with your life? That you're not... that you're not this, that something about being the Brown guy isn't what feels right to you, or hasn't felt... Her having some trouble going there, with the, that she wants to nudge you "back on the rails."

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, I think you're on to something.

(pause 00:38:52 to 00:39:22)

THERAPIST: And even in the discussion about sex, for her to say something about... I don't know, you trying to work something out. Because I think of it as, as imagining that, I imagine that it's not something that she knows, that she's known about you.

CLIENT: Yeah, she said, "I don't' see why you want to go around having sex with random people." It's the same thing I asked Edgar when I was, when I first met him. But for me, it's sort of like, I'm coming into my own a little bit. I still feel like, if I stopped and looked at my life and like, I'm kind of a mess right now. But I don't do that so much anymore. [00:40:13]

What I feel like is, I'm doing what I want to do, and it's mine. So like religion, I've enjoyed religion and that community a lot. It's probably not going to get me a great job, but it's still, it's sentimentally or spiritually fulfilling. And so... (pause) I don't know. I don't know what my point is. (pause) Something about me saying like, this is me and...

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, I guess, how, I guess it's also, it seems to me like it's been difficult to kind of be really trying to find something that is, I mean a guess what I've been putting it very generally is that, is really trying to find yourself, what kind of life feels right. And at the same time, I think, I'm sensing that it's hard at the same time, to be in that place and also knowing, well also facing things like, what are you going to do about money? [00:41:41]

CLIENT: Yeah. And also, sharing that experience, finding what's valuable to me and being able to share it with people or finding an acceptable like, compromise with an institution that values what I value or something like that, a grouping of people. Fitting in there and not, you know, bucking like a wild horse.

THERAPIST: Yeah, not just being money, but things like, yeah, some connection you still want, intimacy.

CLIENT: I guess love. Yeah, the money is there, it's something I should think about more, but I don't. I kind of segregate it. (pause) [00:42:37]

THERAPIST: What, what are you thinking?

CLIENT: Well, I'm thinking about your bill and you're wondering like (laughs).

THERAPIST: Well, you know what I'm actually, one thing I'm thinking about too is that, you know, your birthday is coming up. It's going to mean a change for, it's a possible change of how frequently we can meet and all that stuff. (client affirms) And, well I think in some ways that I think this is something that is important for you to have. And yet, I'm thinking, too that you're on, how do you deal with that, while also really also wanting to stick to something that's very important about what you're trying to do, trying to figure out, about wanting to just... you know, "get back on the rails" or something, in some way that doesn't feel you or right to you. Is that going to impact (ph) back to... I don't know. [00:43:48]

CLIENT: It's all right. I mean, I don't think I could just "pop back on the rails," so to speak, in terms of doing something I absolutely don't want to. Or if I did, I'd do it for a short time, and then there would be like a variation back after three months, or whatever. I would just recoil. But, like there is some room. (pause) (therapist affirms) I'll figure something out.

THERAPIST: Yeah, when is your birthday again?

CLIENT: June 14th.

THERAPIST: June 14th, okay.

CLIENT: Flag Day, for any patriots (ph).

THERAPIST: What, what is that?

CLIENT: Flag Day?

THERAPIST: Flat Day? Is that right? [00:44:47]

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yup!

THERAPIST: I didn't think it was that late. (inaudible) Huh.

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, you're helping me. Thanks.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I think my way, you'd take on one of those... this low-key (ph) kind of spinster suit. (chuckles) What do you call them, those wheelers and dealers who give like, dating advice to men? (hearty laughter) "This is how you behave or do this like, touch a woman here to make her have sex with you or..." Like, I don't know! [00:45:40]

THERAPIST: How do seduce a woman in 14 days?

CLIENT: I'm trying to think, well, it's funny because this girl who's like a dancer, she comes across like really vibrant. It's not just the physical thing; it's how she moves, just how she's smiling, and she's happy. We've kind of said "hello" a few times, but she said... I sort of follow her (ph) as she was going out the door, and she said she was going dancing. I said, "I love to dance!" She said, "Okay, I'd love to talk to you about it for an hour or whatever, but... you know, I'm already late for a date; I feel bad." I don't know. I don't want to be too available.

THERAPIST: Huh. Huh!

CLIENT: But I do want to have some sort of activity. That would be an ideal set up, because she lives at the church.

THERAPIST: Yeah, what would be ideal about that? It's...?

(pause 00:46:39 to 00:47:03]

Because sometimes I ask these questions and I...

CLIENT: I don't want to jinx it!

THERAPIST: Oh! Is it the whole thing, if you say it, it might not happen? Is it?

CLIENT: Something like that, yeah.

THERAPIST: Huh! (pause) There is something important about this whole idea. Because it seems to center around some aspirations that you have, some hopes that you have? (client affirms) If you share them, do they get ruined in some way? I don't know; "ruin" is...

CLIENT: Absolutely. That's perfectly appropriate, yeah. I don't know if that's true for other people. Do you get the sense like, if you share something that's important to you, that you plan to do, that it will be jeopardized or not? I certainly do. [00:48:05]

THERAPIST: I mean, I don't know what to say, what's "normative," you know? But it is something that is important. In other words, it's what's associated, it's the thing that really stands out about sharing...

CLIENT: I feel like there are a lot of people who will share what's important to them, and I feel like I judge them. You know, I'm like, "Okay, this guy wants to be like a superstar writer," or "Okay, this guy wants to be like a CEO or something," you know, just like (chuckles) you know, blow him off, so like... (therapist affirms) Maybe it's because of my own judgments that I don't share things or...

THERAPIST: Huh!

CLIENT: But I don't think... I do feel like... there is something built in. I don't feel it, it's just there. It's been conditioned, where if people pick up on something you really want, they won't be inclined to help you get there. They might even obstruct your path to what you want, if what you want is better than what they have. They're not going to help you rise above them, they're not going to help you. I mean, unless you're a kid, they're not going to help you achieve something that belittles their own existence. [00:49:23]

THERAPIST: Uh-hm. (pause) Yeah, yeah. Well, all right. It's time for you to get going.

CLIENT: I'll rinse this out.

THERAPIST: Oh, you can just put it in the sink, that's fine. I'll take care of it.

CLIENT: Thanks.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: What's that, is there something else?

THERAPIST: What's that?

CLIENT: Was there something else?

THERAPIST: No, no, no.

CLIENT: I want reviews, I want... I want the CIA, or the NSA rather, to hire me or something.

THERAPIST: May that'd be your big break.

CLIENT: You know, years from now, this will be like the centerpiece lecture in your... When you went to school, did you hear any lectures like this? I mean, like...

THERAPIST: No...

CLIENT: Yeah, they don't exist. NSA, who... I don't know! (inaudible)

THERAPIST: See ya!

END TRANSCRIPT