TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: (joined in progress) Yeah, so I can only meet until 2:35. But...

(pause 00:00:10 to 00:00:34)

You had it for, you thought it might have been today, or...?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. (pause) Maybe I was supposed to be here, supposed to be on Tuesday. I got done in time.

(pause 00:00:49 to 00:01:44)

CLIENT: It's dangerous out there. I told myself I wouldn't pass the second bridge again when it was raining; but I decided to try it anyway, because this time... like (inaudible) to turn my wheel on the bike so, before it was kind of like, some spokes broken, I was like wobbling. But I figured out how to like, tune it up. I got, I use this wheel I had (inaudible), so like, it went straight, so I thought I'd go over. It was really pretty dangerous like, when you're on a road bike and it doesn't have like, there is no lateral traction. So...

THERAPIST: Hmm! Oh, would the spokes affect that? (inaudible)

CLIENT: Yeah, the spokes, if you have them tightened, so like if, the spokes actually alternate going to the, from the outside of the wheel to the inside. You have one going left, one right, left, right, left, right. If you have all the left spokes and all the right spokes have the same tension, then your wheel is straight. Then let's say the right, you know, couple of right spokes are tighter than the left spokes, then your wheel is going to be, in the parts where the spokes are tighter, it's going to go a little bit to the right. (therapist affirms) So when that happens, you know, you have kind of a bit of a jerking motion back and forth. It's probably barely perceptible, but if they're broken, it's pretty bad. [00:03:02]

THERAPIST: Uh-hmm. Especially if it's not even, huh? It's not like a right, if it's not, you know, two right are out and no left, or something like that, it will even (client affirms), throw off the...

CLIENT: Yeah, if there were one left and one right, it would be, it wouldn't be much better, because, it depends on where they are. If they are one right and one left on the wheel, in the exact same spot, and they were out; that would be great. That's fine. But if there was, like one on the top of the wheel, "top," like the top of the wheel (therapist affirms/blocks), puts out more on the bottom. You'd have even worse sort of jerking back and forth. (therapist affirms). Yeah, but anyway, it was just kind of like (chuckles). I don't know.

(pause) I didn't think it would be a big deal if I fell, but then when I was on the bridge, I realized that there is like a railing to my right and like beyond, like you know those highway guardrails? Like, they're steel and they're kind of indented like that? Like, just a typical, on the highway, you see like a "V" shape... (therapist affirms) So, there was one of those rails and then beyond that rail, it was just like the river. And so like, you know, the thing is like jerking back and forth and like, a road bike is just kind of (inaudible) about going straight forward, it's fine; but if you jerk it at all a little bit to the sides and like, it gets off-balance easily. (inaudible) that's probably not perfectly sound, but the point is, you have like a high center of gravity. So if you don't have traction, though, it's... (therapist affirms) it's not good. [00:04:43]

THERAPIST: I didn't know there was bike traffic. Where do you go, where do you cross the...?

CLIENT: Near the power plant, there is this bridge.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay, yeah. That's dicey.

CLIENT: It is. And I mean I did it all last year. I never had a problem. But...

THERAPIST: But on a shaky bike, yeah, that's a problem.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's more the rain. I thought it was the shakiness, but it's the rain, actually. (therapist affirms) So... Yeah, I was thinking like... thinking like, "Yeah, I ride my bike pretty fast." That's like the stupidest thing to say, and that's exactly what I need to communicate. It's like I ride my bike pretty fast and I get where I need to go pretty quick. Like I race to do my errands and it's like a small... I can like, time my errands and see how long it takes me to grocery shop and get back and all that. [00:05:43]

It's like a small conceit, a small point of pride, right? But I was thinking like, the reason I can do that so fast is because I don't really have anyone who is depending on me, at least in my view of things. I mean, I could potentially... like if I died or I treat (ph) myself something then it might be prevented from happening, but as it stands, there are no people, I don't have any real responsibilities toward other human beings. So like, if I had kids or something or if I had a wife, I'd probably go slower, just because, you know, getting somewhere quickly wouldn't be as important as getting there safely. I mean, it's somewhat remarkable. I haven't been seriously injured on a bike. [00:06:39]

THERAPIST: But it's almost like you're willing, not willing, but you're more open to risk than maybe otherwise you'd be if there was something you feel you were really, somebody depending upon you, or something that you felt like, "I'm needed."

CLIENT: Sure. (therapist affirms) And it's not, as you express it, sort of a sense of chagrin. It's just... sort of a segue (chuckles).

THERAPIST: Well, it is, I guess it's something that you kind of observe in yourself, yeah. You're letting yourself take some more risk than maybe you otherwise would.

CLIENT: Right. (pause) What I was thinking is that, what might have happened with... in my case as I, I think I had a very strong connection with my mother and like, what she expected from me and things like that. In order to remain sane or in order to be myself or some perceived combination, I broke that bond, as in, I had to very forcefully resist... what? Implications, the demands of my parent. [00:08:30]

Sometime after that, or some period after that, I don't seem to feel the pull of other's expectations very strongly at all. (therapist affirms) So, a professor assigning work or something, or... you know, my mother or anything else, anyone else sort of expecting me to do this or that, to succeed generally or to do particular tasks. I just, it's not, it's like a (chuckles) like an anti-gravitational field. Like I don't take bullshit, but it's not, you know, I'd, by the same token, I don't, I'm not bound by responsibilities, but I don't have... sort of default purposes, I guess. You know, a purpose. [00:09:41]

THERAPIST: Oh. Is it kind of, I was thinking of like, in a way... Is it kind of like, you feel like you (chuckles), I don't know if this is right metaphor, but "unhinged yourself" from your mother; but then you feel... which was important for you, important to get away from that, for yourself. You had to feel, you had to do it in order to, you had to have something (client affirms) you needed. But, then you feel unhinged, just generally.

CLIENT: Right. Yes. Yeah, that's a connection I'm trying to draw, and that I feel might be true. (therapist affirms) (pause) (chuckles) I mean, it is funny. Like, I have... I've done some work today. I mean, it's a good day, in that I posted a suggestion that a bunch of cousins and I go to Vancouver. I'm going to be staying in Vancouver for a week with a friend who's going to a business conference there. [00:10:50]

So I decided, it'd be nice; my sister is up there, it'd be nice to invite some cousins, too; see if they could go. So I successfully, you know, made like a Google spreadsheet for people to fill out for availability and stuff. It's like a social project, which is, it's unusual for me to complete. Or I don't, I don't know what to say about that, that's not true; it's just that I've been meaning to do it for like, the whole week. It's only just today that I was able to do it.

But aside from that, I mean (chuckles) in general, you know, I have something to do and it's there, but it's just sort of floating. Like, I can reach out and look at it and it's not... You know, sort of take it in hand and say, "Oh, well, this doesn't look like a quick path to pleasure, not like... I don't know, a turkey sandwich or pornography." I mean, I really do live quite a solitary existence. I'm not sure how unusual that is, but that, in a sense, is irrelevant. I mean, I wander around my apartment during the day, I make meals, I eat, go through the Internet from time to time. But I mean... [00:12:16]

THERAPIST: Plus you're alone a lot.

CLIENT: Yeah. Right. I mean, if I'm given something to do, I think I can do it well, or if there is someone around attractive, it's not like I'm autistic. But... (therapist affirms) in general, I just... Yeah, I saw this kid in my neighborhood sort of leap off the front step. Just the particular-ness of this one actor gives you a sense of how lonely I am. I mean, this kid like, he jumped off the front step and he was ready to play basketball. He just ran off to play basketball with his friends. And it conjured some distant memory of how I kind of would want to do something like (therapist affirms) you know, there is someone to join, there is some activity to participate in.

For me, I had these activities, but they're dispersed. Like, I can edit the newsletter for the church; that's my responsibility today. But I usually just shaft it! I mean, I put it off! I have nothing and everything to do. It's all interesting. "These are the days of miracle and wonder. And don't cry." (chuckles). [00:13:23]

THERAPIST: Well, yeah, I'm thinking about that, I mean, like yeah, you're kind of free alone, but it's almost like that's a problem, too, or something.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I think some people's reaction... I'm not sure if they'll still have this reaction in their thirties, but I mean, my parents in their mid-twenties, they... If they actually find out that I'm not doing anything, that I'd want or wish I could be, (inaudible) that would become. The rub of it is, you don't really do anything unless you have... or I don't do anything unless you have sort of discreet responsibilities, sort of discreet expectations. I don't know. (therapist affirms) It's certainly good wine (ph), (inaudible).

THERAPIST: No, but you're also in like, to kind of, maybe kind of... something that was going on with your mom that, there was this need to kind of detach from those expectations. As you were putting it, it was to keep you sane. (client affirms)

(pause 00:14:30 to 00:14:46)

Sounds like she was driving you kind of crazy. Is that too much to say?

CLIENT: Oh, put a lot of stress on me, I think, and it wasn't productive stress any longer. I think that would have been fine, but she was just entirely detached from my experience. So she was there, but, you know, whatever I'd say, it seems like she would resist it. So like, when I embarrassed myself with the, you know, coming in late to present my term paper? You know, she said, "We're so proud of you!" I was just like, you know, this person has like no, there is like no reference, there is no, I don't, you know, I don't know what to say about it. It's just... She's there, but her idea of what's going on with me or... it's just really disconnected. [00:15:41]

THERAPIST: Uh-hm. (pause) Feel incongruent (ph)? Is it...?

CLIENT: Yeah. Almost diametrically so. (pause)

(pause 00:16:00 to 00:16:36)

(chuckles) Yeah, so not am I, I concocted an immunity to this "gravity" that comes from other people. It seems like a side effect or a corollary of that is that some sort of recourse of self-definition is just to defy expectations whenever they arise. It doesn't matter what they are.

THERAPIST: (pause) And it became important, at some point, to defy your mother's expectations? Or to kind of free yourself from them or...? Get out of her "pull"? (pause) What were they? What was she, what did she want? (pause) What did she expect from you? [00:17:54]

CLIENT: You know, I'm not even sure. I've sort of come to doubt what I've said, because while the expectations or the connection wasn't congruent or like, it wasn't sound (ph) like love; that sort of attention is better than nothing.

I remember a particular incident in my sophomore year in college, where she was telling me to... She had visited with my father and she was in my tiny dorm room, and saying like, "You know, you should get more friends," or "You should be doing this or be doing this." You know, I felt like she was sort of criticizing the way I was doing things. At the same time, I was sort of ashamed, because I wasn't really reaching out to, you know, my peers. I was isolated, but it was sort of by... yeah. [00:18:52]

I was more sort of alone than I would like to be, but to have her take that, and instead of helping me with it, to sort of (therapist affirms) rub it in my face, you know? (therapist affirms) I couldn't stand for that. So I just said, "It's my life and if it's (chuckles)." The exact words I said I don't remember, but I made it very clear. It was like, "This burning heap of dog shit is mine, and if I want to leave it there, I'll leave it there," you know?

(chuckles) I didn't say it like that, but, that's basically what I said. I mean, "It's mine; I'll do whatever I want with it." Even though I was inwardly sort of ashamed of what I was, or my lack of social achievement or social connectedness or whatever, I needed her to step off (ph). (therapist affirms) I made that pretty clear. But then, I mean, after that I botched Birmingham and whatever else. [00:19:53]

THERAPIST: But you're getting at something important, though, that you wanted, you didn't need her rub you, you know, it felt like she was rubbing your face in it instead of kind of... you know... helping, (client affirms), doing something that felt more constructive as opposed to, "Hey, you should get out there and..."

CLIENT: Yeah. That is. That's what sort of characterized our interactions in that period, is that she went from being my mother to sort of pushing me to achieve great things. Then after I got into Lawrenceville and during the period when I was college, she would instead just sort of "pile on" with the kind of normative (ph) constraints or you know, she'd "pile on" with whatever difficulty I was facing.

So she wouldn't be an advocate, she'd be, you know, this manipulative being who basically pretended to help me while sweeping my issue with Birmingham under the rug, because they could be institutions' reputation. You know, she would side with them, just by default, without... I mean, that sounds tenuous as I describe it, but it was... [00:21:04]

THERAPIST: What...?

CLIENT: It was just sort of repeated. Like, whatever difficulty I was facing, it's just... when I told her about it, she would just... she would basically explain that I had to compromise or that I had to, um, that what I was doing was wrong. (therapist affirms)

And she would, she would get, you know, the thing that would pain me the most, or the, some of the, she'd tweak at sort of weaknesses. It's not like she told them to comfort me or anything. She'd take those things, and she'd see what I saw, and what bothered me the most, and she'd take (inaudible) and sort of... I did! I felt, even at the time she was sort of throwing the stuff on me again. (therapist affirms) (inaudible) (therapist affirms) [00:21:05]

(pause) So... I don't know. It's funny, because I mean, these criticisms, I had them; but to hear them... I have these self-criticisms; but to hear them coming from somebody else is somehow intolerable to me. So, in sort of breaking away (ph) from her, I may have had to dismiss a large part of myself as well... whatever that means. I don't know how that happens, technically. But it's an interesting little theorem of life of Brandon (ph). [00:22:45]

THERAPIST: I think you're right! Like, in a way, it meant that you had to stop, you had to kind of, you know, detach... a case in point is this whole feeling maybe you, it had about this social isolation you were experiencing; where it seems to me like, maybe you were, what you needed was some way of somebody to kind of help you. Instead you get this kind of response of, "Well, you have to go out there and make more friends." Well, that's entirely the problem! There is something else going on.

But when she reacted that way, it seemed to have the effect of making you feel worse and kind of like she's not... something about that. You know, sort of says it like, "Just get over it and get out there," or something, I don't know what that, what's behind that response in her. And then you took it and felt like... I was thinking like, with your own kind of interest in figuring out that problem that you were having. You must have had to detach yourself from it as well. "I'm not going to care about that. If I'm socially isolated, then big deal! It's my problem!" (client affirms) "I'll live with it!" [00:24:15]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But you started out the whole interaction by caring a lot, but just needing a certain kind of response. I want to say yeah, obviously needing it, but I think that's, actually that's right.

CLIENT: Needing a certain kind of response.

THERAPIST: Somebody to help you!

CLIENT: From her or what? Or just in general?

THERAPIST: Just in general, yeah. Of course, your mom, you turn to your mom. Maybe it's comfort, maybe it's sort of like, what are you feeling, what's going on at school, what do you feel among your peers, what...? (client affirms) (pause) What is it like for you, to kind of enter into that with you, as opposed to kind of go...? [00:25:08]

CLIENT: Yeah, instead it's sort of like, two immigrants or two immigrant groups. It was like she the Russians and I'm the Irish, and we're both trying to make it in Baltimore. We're both discriminated against, but then, you know, somebody, like they reach out to each other, while one just puts the other one down, you know?

THERAPIST: They're not going to come together.

CLIENT: Right. Something like that. A beard is like... you know, beards can grow naturally, but they don't look very good if you just let them grow, typically; maybe if you let them grow a really long time. But it's a series of sort of judgments and discriminations that brings a beard into form.

You have to sort of have an awareness of what women like, what's manly (therapist chuckles), you could put any number of names, labels, and terms, but they are a series of discriminations and judgments that sort of bring a beard into shape. If you're doing it in private, you look at each piece one at a time, you can't do the whole thing at once. You know, how thin it is or you know, where this part on the cheek, how far that comes down, you know, how, what to do with this part under your chin there... [00:26:38]

THERAPIST: How to trim it...

CLIENT: It gives it, each component has this, with a series of battery judgments applied, which come from who knows where. But I think part of what I did, I mean I... At that time, when my mother came into my room, I mean I was just growing my beard out. I had a big beard. I had spoken of trimming it, because the idea was then, you know, it's an expression of natural perfection that needs no modification, but... I mean, the fact is, you should sort of trim your beard, I think to... I mean, it's almost a social activity or... the same way dressing was, it's sort of a social, it's a sign of respect for social... communication, I guess, I don't know. (therapist affirms) [00:27:45]

Anyway, all I was trying to say is that, I feel like in response to these stresses or this drama or conflict, I sort of just let the beard grow. I don't apply any judgments to myself, just like judgments bring a beard into form, they bring a man into form as well. They're a series of points that need to be tweaked and pulled to make a man stand erect. I just sort of, I disregard most of them because I think that's given me quite a bit of pain in the past and it's also, it requires a lot of energy, mental and otherwise, to live up to my... when I say "my," I mean, like they exist for me, the standards.

It's easier to toss the whole thing out, especially, you know, after I've sort of fallen off the rails. I, you know, confronting the possibility of having to go back to Grinnell, of going back to college, or, those sorts of things. It's not a very attractive proposition, financially or socially; perhaps even educationally.

(pause 00:29:02 to 00:29:23)

Yeah. So I need the help of other people to apply these judgments in moderation (therapist affirms) and in context. Or I need context, rather (inaudible).

THERAPIST: (pause) Is it true, I mean, one thing, I guess follows basically (ph) like, how do you make the beard... how do you kind of grow a beard that both feels like its (client chuckles) like you're conforming (ph) to some kind of social expectation that still feels like it's coming from you and your "id," and it's not being thrust upon you or... where it's actually a source of pride in some way, as opposed to it feeling like an impingement of... (client affirms) [00:30:35]

And I think you're sort of saying like, that became such a mess of a conflict kind of between you and your mom, maybe yeah, but also you're like, "I'm just going to grow a beard out! I know it will be mine that way!" (client affirms)

(pause 00:31:03 to 00:31:31)

I was thinking, just to say, too, how do you trust anybody to give you help when you've had experiences like somebody who, when they try to, when you've reached out for help, have kind of made things worse.

CLIENT: Yeah. That is my experience.

(pause 00:31:50 to 00:32:33)

I felt like a fraud, too, at Lawrenceville and beyond. I mean, I felt like, I guess I sort of felt some privilege coming upon me, but I felt like I wasn't living up to my own standards of excellence and I did feel, I felt fraudulent.

(pause) Yeah, I mean with Birmingham or anything else; I felt like a fraud, too. (pause) Even good insights, like in English class, in a particular English class, I would think... You know, I'd be called upon, because we'd have these assignments where we had to post reflections on something that we had read or whatever. And I'd be able to express very complicated and (to me) relevant, I think to other people deeply relevant points. It would be like a split-second catharsis. But, I'd just feel like a fraud again. I don't really know. It was like an ongoing performance, and it wasn't going to stop. [00:34:13]

THERAPIST: That was the fraud? Your fraudulent kind of experience? The "performative" (ph)...?

CLIENT: Uh... yeah; they're sort of the same thing. When you feel like a fraud, you feel like your obligations are just a series of performances.

THERAPIST: Acting out?

CLIENT: Yeah. It wasn't an organic way of life. I mean I was (chuckles) I sort of sending energy to put on some sort of performance. (therapist affirms)

(pause 00:35:05 to 00:35:35)

THERAPIST: I was wondering if that's some of what you've described at the beginning of sessions sometimes, of having to talk? Do you ever feel like you're performing, you know, you're being asked to perform in a certain way?

CLIENT: What do you mean, "beginning of sessions," having to talk?

THERAPIST: Like, here, when you're, sometimes you'll be like, "You talk!" You'll ask me to talk.

CLIENT: No, it's not the same at all.

THERAPIST: What, yeah, but say more about the, we have to stop, but the performing? The fraudulent kind of experience...

CLIENT: (pause) Well, now it is like 12:00 (ph) (chuckles) that's separate (inaudible). I don't like that. I don't like when people say, "Sing!" You know, I say, "I know this song," and they say, "Sing it!" I don't do that. [00:36:31]

THERAPIST: Oh, it feels like "Monkey, dance"?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I see, yeah. There is a way I said that, like say, seemed normal (ph), yeah...

CLIENT: (under breath) You said (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Okay, yeah. I'm sorry, yeah. We have to stop.

CLIENT: Okay!

THERAPIST: Okay! I'll see you on Tuesday.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

END TRANSCRIPT