TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: I've printed off a bill for you but I put down four at $20. Is it $20 or $15 that the co-pays are?

CLIENT: I'm pretty sure it's $20.

THERAPIST: Okay. And maybe I don't know if I already took of the $50. And I don't think I did. Because when's that dated for?

CLIENT: I don't know. June 3rd it says.

THERAPIST: I don't think I took off the $50 yet.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Because that was from last week. I didn't give it to you.

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm not seeing anything change, so this is what I have. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Yeah, well -

CLIENT: Let's see. I paid -

THERAPIST: Because you paid another $50, that's right.

CLIENT: Right. I can check the past month I guess. They're beautifully numbered it shows so. [00:01:03]

THERAPIST: Huh. Well what's the day? It's the 10th?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah that makes sense, because I think I mailed it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Something around that.

THERAPIST: All right. I think I'm ready.

CLIENT: Thanks. What do you drink? Is that a is it some like variation of ice tea?

THERAPIST: It's just Darwin's right here. They do they'll have different kinds. But I think it's the same as ice tea, fall ice tea.

CLIENT: Are their sandwiches good? Everyone says they're good. I don't know.

THERAPIST: They're really good. They give you a lot, but you pay a lot for it.

CLIENT: Hum.

THERAPIST: It's good though yeah.

CLIENT: Well all right. [00:01:58]

THERAPIST: Yeah, right there, that's right. You know where it is right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, let's see. (pause) Looks like the hands of a mechanic.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I clean things so. (long pause) There's something that smells like mold in my living room. Or I don't know if it's foot smell or mold. Like it could be my new roommate's like feet. It smells like foot smell. But it could be that she has stinky feet. Or it may be the mold attached to this couch that was in the cellar before we raised it up to the third floor with pulleys. [00:03:08]

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: Yeah. The landlord and I get along okay now. There was this issue when you know of material when I brought home six bikes and sort of placed them all in the backyard. I've been fixing one bike every two days, but keeps but his feeling was that you know I couldn't just throw the bikes back there. And that they were technically storage and that they have to be he had granted me a storage area in the basement for such purpose, even though I you know, the storage area's always been there. And he bought the property after I had lived there. [00:03:57]

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: And in fact to he sort of abrogated the whole rear of the property for his own use. But he was saying you know, I don't have a problem with you working there. I was working there at like a Saturday night like one to five a.m., or something like that. One of his snarking friends came up and like fell down the stairs when he saw me, or something, I don't know why. But he fell down the stairs. [00:04:26]

But he said I don't have a problem with you working there, but you know you can't store the bikes back there. And you know I was I changed the subject and then I don't know. It's some sort of you know, sort of prodding to see what it was that was the problem. You know are they an eye sore or because I don't like someone telling me what I can and can't do. [00:04:59]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Well you know it's like they got something going. He had also sort of like when I started enjoying playing music, he was like stop playing music. And it's like that Bob Marley song, every time I plant a seed, the guy says kill it before it grows. You know I'm starting to play and he just like jumps on. [00:05:17]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But I decided to compromise because which I don't think I'd done before really. Because I needed to be able to work in the back. And he could he wouldn't be able to stop me from working in the back of the property late at night. I had set up sort of a flood light on the third story, which lit the back area. But he wouldn't be able to stop me from working there, but he would be able to make it uncomfortable. And it just wasn't worth it for me to have it be uncomfortable every time I see the guy like passing by while I'm working on the bike you know. So I ended up moving the bicycles. [00:06:02]

Oh and plus it rained, so that simplified things. It's like it's it's not very good of me to keep people's bikes that I'm fixing outside when it's raining or just all other stuff. So that made it kind of easier, but I still I left them out in the rain one day just to spite him. [00:06:18]

THERAPIST: Hum. What I mean to you, what when you know, when he said hey, you know don't store them there. What did it kind of bring up for you? Like you telling him he basically saying you've got to do this for me.

CLIENT: Yeah. I wasn't very pleased. (sigh)

THERAPIST: Yeah, what is that? Yeah. (pause) It almost I mean it almost sounded to me like a slap in the face kind of?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah I mean like he could throw his junk around where ever and I have to and you know he can tell me what to do. I don't think so. [00:07:00]

THERAPIST: Like I kind of almost a pow like I don't know if power's the right word, but.

CLIENT: Well yeah. Yeah he's the fat cat. I don't you know on top of it I feel like there's something there that we we've could dig in and find. But also -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I'd add that you know I was it was one of those really hot days when this happened. Like it was you know probably the hottest day. I just it was around 5:00 on a Sunday. He had called me once on that it was June 3rd actually. He'd called once in the morning, but I was at church, so I didn't answer. And then I got home and I took a shower and I was just I just went out on my bed and like conked out. And then it's like a knock and I don't know, it's just like incorporated into my dream. There was like a knock and then I turn around and the landlord's at my window. (laugh) And like he wakes me up and he's like, Jeeze. He's like go to the, you know to the door or whatever. [00:08:03]

So I -

THERAPIST: Not delicate about this huh? Or tactful?

CLIENT: Exactly. Right. I got up from the bed I don't know. Let me see I get dressed rather simply and opened the door. And so he was wondering where the rent was because it was the 3rd. You know never mind that I'm still really mad at him because he's been away. And so and that Saturday I mean he wasn't away. I didn't say anything, it's just that my other roommate, she she hadn't been around much and also she hadn't given me the rent. So I wanted to talk to her before I talked to the landlord. Because I paid the rent for the unit. [00:08:56]

And but apparently she had spoken with the landlord and she didn't want to get like, didn't want us to incur fees or get in trouble because she didn't have the money. So she was embarrassed to talk to me, but she talked to the landlord. So he was working on something with her. So he was wondering where the money was and he said so can you give me a check now. And I said no. And he said well when can you get it to me? And I said I'll give it to you tomorrow. And he's like well I'd like to go to the bank tomorrow morning, can you know, can you get it to me for that time? I said no, I'll put it in there around 10:00. And yeah, we probably checked at last. Oh yeah the fridge, had a problem with the fridge which leaks a little bit. [00:09:41]

About his friend who fell down the stairs and said yeah that's when he first talked about the bikes. [00:09:50]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And I was like okay, your friend, he fell down the stairs. And I told him about these pigeons. Did I tell you about the pigeons?

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: The pigeons. The pigeons. Third floor. So the guy next door, he let pigeons roost in his balcony. There are two balconies out there. One on the front and one on the back. He let pigeons roost in his balcony last year and so they laid their eggs. [00:10:10]

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: And so this year there are like 10 or 20 came back to the neighborhood and like try to find places to roost. So you know I'd be reading in my room or on the computer or whatever, I'd hear the like rruurr, rruurr, making mating sounds, pigeon mating sounds, like urrruu. And like I'd open the window and like throw hammers at them and stuff. And like (laugh) but they keep coming back and then [00:10:34]

THERAPIST: Not playing cupid with those those pigeons?

CLIENT: Not at all. They don't take a hint. And I got those little pop caps for the pop guns that you like shoot and you know -

THERAPIST: Yeah, uh-huh.

CLIENT: They go bang, bang. And I had this little thing I got for Christmas, one of those useless things that you drop them and there's a pop cap on the tip and so it makes a bang. So that scared them away some. But they kept coming back and then I found two eggs, I just threw them out on the asphalt. And they stopped coming pretty much. But occasionally they still come up there. [00:11:02]

So I got these Alka Seltzer tablets which apparently they make pigeons like blow up if they eat them.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah, I've heard that.

CLIENT: So I get the berry flavored ones. I think it's a myth, but I figured it will make them sick at least. Yeah. So I was talking to him about that too. But then he was telling me to move these bikes. And I'm saying well, you know I'm not really you know I'm not sure I you know maybe it's just that I I just woke up, or I think I might have said you know maybe it's just that you you woke me up from my nap. But I'm not sure how I feel about you know, being told to move these things. [00:11:39]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And he's like well you don't have to like it, Brandon, but you know I I'm in charge and he turns around and walks away.

THERAPIST: Hum.

CLIENT: I didn't I just and he's like thanks I appreciate it. I hate when people say that, thanks, after they tell you to do something. I was like you can appreciate whatever you want. It was just one of those stupid things you say. You can appreciate whatever you want Fergus. (laugh) Because I had no intention of like moving them you know. Ha, ha. And like I said I did leave them out an extra day in the rain just to -

THERAPIST: Just to kind of like yeah.

CLIENT: Fuck you. (laugh) Stupid people. [00:12:16]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: But it did make sense to bring them inside. And we've since had some sort of I mean I don't want to have to sort of like an opinion of me. [00:12:28]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But I talked to the guy I guess oh yeah, but I was working on the bike and so a couple of the tablets for the pigeons had rolled off of the balcony onto the back asphalt area.

THERAPIST: A couple of the tablets?

CLIENT: The Alka Seltzer tablets.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: For the pigeons, yeah.

THERAPIST: You had just sort of laid them up there and they had and they fell.

CLIENT: And a couple of them rolled off. So I just sort of scattered them. And I got two generic bottles. And so you know, I was working like the next night, or the night after about 3:00 a.m. And like the flood lights on, and I'm working on the bike, just truing the wheel I think, the spokes and whatever. And out of the darkness comes a skunk. And it's like it like starts like meandering towards me in that skunk way and it starts chewing up one of the Alka Seltzer tablets. (laugh) I like listen and there's another one like five feet away and it's eating these things and my plan is backfiring big time, because like the skunk is right next to me and it's eating these like indigestion tablets. Yeah. [00:13:43]

So I just sort of froze and then when it seems reasonable I sort of walked away and came back five minutes later and the skunk was gone, but there was a skunk episode. [00:13:56]

THERAPIST: Hum. It didn't blow up huh?

CLIENT: No, it didn't blow up but it was a strange stinking though. (pause) Yeah I tried to get this Vancouver trip going with my cousins. Like my sister's up in Vancouver, or she was. I think she's coming back here to work for the summer. But she had been planning to stay up there. And so I checked with four guys like my cousins via e-mail and just say, let's go to Vancouver and so like a weekend. And so I made a Google spreadsheet and people could check in when they could when they wanted to go. I talked to I guess three three beforehand so that I see there's just one good guy but she's in Oregon. And she said that she one weekend if it got rescheduled so. [00:15:03]

It's sort of like (pause) -

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: (long pause) Yeah. Well, I sent out an e-mail to 14 people I think. And then the 15 just like send out to two other friends maybe. And one of my cousins responded like why don't we change can we just eliminate weekdays? But I'd included weekdays because I planned on going there with a friend who was attending a physics conference. [00:15:53]

So I don't know, me and Ashley sent out like 15 people or whatever and I don't know whether I should respond and say, well actually I did know what I was going to do. But it's a it's a tricky thing when you send out a mass e-mail and then someone else sends out a response like trying to correct or optimize your e-mail. And you're like well do you shoot this person down because you've already thought it through or do you, you know try to go with them for the sake of cohesiveness. Because you didn't want like a little issue. [00:16:22]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Right. And for most people they're going to be receiving it with the issue. Not like what you sent. Which is -

THERAPIST: But does it spoil it a little bit for you? Like does it feel a little bit spoiled?

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Though like it's your time, she kind of goes why didn't you eliminate the weekdays.

CLIENT: (long pause) I don't know. I it spoils it but far as I know the message won't be as effective. It's [00:16:57]

THERAPIST: Yeah. What -

CLIENT: I mean, it's just I don't know. (long pause) But yeah the -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I ended up correcting the guy and he was just like well this is the time, actually I had three people that said that this is based on you know, going with a friend anyway. And so if anyone happened to be able to go it would be nice. But then it makes it sound like it's about me and you know it's sort of centered around my schedule, the other 15 people might feel like. Then someone else suggested the cousin I had talked to from Oregon said like well I'm going to be coming home this weekend, but I don't know if I can cross I can go that far, even though she lives in Maine. So how about we meet in Western Connecticut on this weekend. And then one person said that's a good idea and nobody else responded. [00:17:58]

Then someone else said like oh, what is it, it's like Vancouver's too far and something like very neat, like very pedestrian like [00:18:16]

THERAPIST: But they're fucking up the plan.

CLIENT: Yeah. That's the thing it's the idea isn't like to make it convenient for everyone. The idea is to like bring the family to a new place.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Apart from the older generation. And experience some of the some adult life. You know?

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: For God's sakes, like Baltimore would work just as well I think. But [00:18:42]

THERAPIST: Like Baltimore City?

CLIENT: Right. I mean there are things to do. It's the society, it's the it's not the same the same people, the same places, doing you know the joyful things and stuff. Yeah so basically I'll just salvage who I can and probably go up for the Vancouver jazz fest. My cousin Kylie though, I guess she doesn't have a passport. It's kind of sneaky of I mean that, the cousin that I went dancing with, when she brought her boyfriend and all that, that was Kylie. I guess a major motivation is to try to get her involved as well. [00:19:19]

THERAPIST: Hum.

CLIENT: But I'm really like so round about like that. Like I was I went with two friends to the Ramen place in the Square. Have you heard of that place?

THERAPIST: Now which one do you to, Asahi or the other one?

CLIENT: I've been to both. The other one's a better one though.

THERAPIST: The one in, what's that?

CLIENT: It has a long name like, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It just has one dish.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Okay, so we went to the other one, but the -

THERAPIST: Asahi?

CLIENT: Yeah. We went to Asahi.

THERAPIST: Asahi's good yeah.

CLIENT: There was a line there too, so (pause) Yeah, but I went with two friends and there was like an Asian girl next to us and or woman I guess and like she was with a guy who was kind of shy. But she started a conversation with me and duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. And then she started talking to her possible boyfriend and then she was talking to me and possible boyfriend and like she it came up in her conversation with her boyfriend that she was from Chicago. So I brought it up in our conversation that I had an uncle in Chicago who had just invited me to stay with him. But really I should have taken that to her. It's the same toying with like with Kylie and this like play with me Kyle. I think I'm sort of indirect in those situations. [00:20:27]

THERAPIST: Hum.

CLIENT: I'm viewing this like kind of unfixable problem. I just I don't know.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: I do need to fix it.

THERAPIST: Hum. Hum.

CLIENT: I'm a little too sneaky to think about like you know I was talking to them about something that I wanted to say to her. I had an uncle who lives in the Watergate, so so you too (laugh) [00:20:55]

THERAPIST: Yeah, so you should just stop.

CLIENT: No, I think I just said I'll see you soon.

THERAPIST: Oh, I'll see you soon.

CLIENT: Yeah. Oh and she was it seemed like she was trying to brag unnecessarily. She was saying shooting like the economists. And she was like oh this guy this guy this isn't as good as my paper which I wrote a year ago. But see my roommate dated in that situation I recognized that the guy might be her boyfriend and so I used that as an excuse not to press things, even though she was quite attractive and apparently somewhat interested. [00:21:38]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: But I probably should have pressed things irregardless. I mean if he needs to stand up for himself, let him stand up for himself. But he seemed kind of laid back. Maybe it's just an old flame. [00:21:51]

THERAPIST: Hum.

CLIENT: Yeah I probably should try the other Raman place. Is that one in the complex? Like we couldn't find it really.

THERAPIST: No, it's not in the complex. It's do you know where the pizza place is?

CLIENT: I've seen the signs but I don't know where it is.

THERAPIST: If you're going towards Clarendon, it's on the right.

CLIENT: Um-hum. That's helpful. [00:22:29]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, but indirect you know what the way that feels though to be like kind of going around the bend?

CLIENT: Well it didn't work so. (laugh) So no I don't.

THERAPIST: It's just Oh God yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't think it has worked.

THERAPIST: Well it sounds a little bit like you're conflicted between being sneaky or being direct and kind of too like pushy or something. You feel like you'd be too you know stepping on toes. I don't know. I don't know if that's how you feel about Kylie as much, but. [00:23:18]

CLIENT: I don't know. (long pause) Yeah I do feel like I don't take what's available. Like I need to. [00:23:43]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Especially with young women, I mean it's irrecoverable. (drumming on the chair or something)

THERAPIST: Hum. Yeah what about Kylie? What do you what have you been thinking?

CLIENT: Well I mean I'm thinking that this you know 33 year old engineer is probably you know, fucking her and so It's not going to be the same. I mean even now or even the last time I saw her, she seemed different. [00:24:18]

THERAPIST: Huh. How old is she?

CLIENT: God, she's probably 21. (pause) (drumming on the chair or something and making music noises) I'm not just talking about with Kylie, I'll join up with anybody, you know. [00:24:38]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Or I'm like yeah because I guess you could say anybody can have pretty changes, but (long pause) (chuckle) Yes and my cousin Edgar, the same one who was like creating issues about Vancouver schedule or whatever, can't remember the whole thing. He texted me and asked me if I'm going to be in for Dungeons and Dragons tonight. Which I find pretty unenjoyable. I play to connect with my cousins, but it's really, it's not just that connection. [00:25:34]

THERAPIST: Hum.

CLIENT: And it's I don't know. I mean I if I had almost anything else to do, I'd probably want to do that. I mean I want to watch Mad Men rather than do that. I mean if it rains I plan to go over to the meeting house and ask that girl there . I'll just asking if she would ride shuttle for a while. Yeah sort of (pause) yeah I don't know what to do. I just like know, I don't care. (laugh) I just you know I don't really want to play. It's (pause) [00:26:30]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah it seems like a contrast from going to Vancouver and seeing well how did you put it? Seeing some of the world?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Being out in the world, being -

CLIENT: That's right, yeah. So.

THERAPIST: What do you think I mean are your cousins, you know you talked about how your cousins or how your family can feel such a comfortable place but also kind of like an Eden like.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:26:57]

THERAPIST: Are your cousins a bit like reluctant to leave the kind of paradise behind?

CLIENT: This cousin, he amazes me. It's the same guy I moved in with to get out of living at home. It wasn't ideal. I felt like I still had some stuff to figure out with my parents. Something about our relationship but I decided to move in with him to move out of the home. Stop my mom from driving me crazy. [00:27:26]

THERAPIST: Hum.

CLIENT: But I moved in with him. Then he brought a girlfriend in. And I said why don't you two move out. And then he moved to Western Connecticut. His girlfriend left. And now he's moving into his family's old house. Not living with his family, but his moving into his old house with his brother. So yeah, he was five years older than me. [00:27:58]

I visited my other cousin visited yesterday which was nice, but we didn't have much to do, just the two of us.

THERAPIST: So imagine you're .

CLIENT: I get the sense that he's you know condescends towards me or doesn't respect my way of life, but which is sometimes like no way of life, so. (chuckle) But so he came over anyway and we played like an old video game. And he's like I think his family pushes him along very set lines. [00:28:35]

THERAPIST: Hum.

CLIENT: And you know he does what they want. So not since he has it both ways, but he has. He's still sort of in a struggle with his family. But he's also making progress. [00:28:55]

THERAPIST: What did I it sounds like you're describing somebody who's not a full not as individuated as -

CLIENT: No. Funny it's very dated that so no offensive plays seem like a very good puns. Other things seem he has an imagination, loves to tell stories. Tell stories about his dreams which are sometimes implausible. But he's he's an engineer and he's sort of like, well I sort of watch him getting deader and deader. (laugh) [00:29:35]

And I was always sort of like a sciences guy. But living the dream. (chuckle) (pause) Who was that by the ferris wheel? [00:30:00]

THERAPIST: I don't know, it was actually given to me by somebody that I used to work with here.

CLIENT: Huh.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That's pretty good.

THERAPIST: He was obviously a photographer who you know, then did some sort of treatment on it.

CLIENT: That's supposed to conjure a sailboat?

THERAPIST: The colors? or what?

CLIENT: Well the guy climbing it.

THERAPIST: Oh, this. I guess.

CLIENT: I'm looking at that one. She's repairing in the middle of a ferris wheel.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: They have the beveled ropes like they're like extra.

THERAPIST: It does seem like he's going up to the ropes or something.

CLIENT: It's like extra rigging.

THERAPIST: Maybe.

CLIENT: Oh my. (long pause) A lot of spokes. [00:31:05]

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) Yeah do you feel like your cousins aren't like you know they're a little too comfortable in the nest or something? And you're I was thinking you've been trying to get out of like the shadow of your family's kind of expectations or something like that. [00:31:32]

CLIENT: Yes, I guess that's sort of like an undercurrent with me. But that shouldn't suggest that like I'm thinking you know you guys are too gummed up, like we need to do something else. My thought is my cousins are my connection. But I now know that I can't continue to like tread water in this comfortable family situation. So my option if I like my cousins, my option is let's go somewhere else. [00:32:02]

THERAPIST: Umm.

CLIENT: You know let's -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah we could, whatever. But oh yeah the cousin that came yesterday, he offered to drive me down for July 4th. I'll probably take him up on it. We usually go down to the Hamptons for July 4th. But [00:32:20]

THERAPIST: Is it a big family event?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (Drumming on furniture) I'm not sure. (long pause) [00:33:00]

(continued long pause)

THERAPIST: What's that? All right.

CLIENT: (laugh)

THERAPIST: It's a staring match.

CLIENT: It's a contest right. (long pause) I'm wondering if I might be gay, like a mechanic, that I'm working as a mechanic. [00:33:52]

THERAPIST: If you might be gay?

CLIENT: Correct.

THERAPIST: Why's that?

CLIENT: Um (pause) [00:34:00]

THERAPIST: Are mechanics gay or something?

CLIENT: No. I think I might have got a little turned on by my boss, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: Once in a while. (pause) I guess that's not gay though. Because like I'm also turned on by women quite frequently. [00:34:22]

THERAPIST: What did you notice?

CLIENT: I don't know I kind of liked him. I might be conflating like a like an actual free flying interchange with another person with a (pause) with something, I don't know. [00:34:50]

THERAPIST: You like him huh?

CLIENT: With physical attraction. Not really.

THERAPIST: No?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: But you're attracted to him?

CLIENT: No. Not that either. [00:35:00]

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Just occasionally like like when we start like we had a good parry back and forth with like a conversation. He seems sort of similar to me in a couple of ways. And the same thing with Edgar though or with oh, I guess that's it, well this one other guy. But it's just like you get something going and my life otherwise is kind of just not so much sure anymore, but it's it has been at times pretty lonely and isolated. So I guess I get excited when some sort of natural conversation or interchange develops. But I was just trying to get you to blink really. (laugh) [00:36:03]

Yeah. I noticed that point cured something that I mean it's -

THERAPIST: A flicker of something?

CLIENT: Yeah. Hum.

THERAPIST: What what did you notice?

CLIENT: I don't know. (long pause) [00:37:00]

THERAPIST: Well again sometimes there's an enjoyment of the interchange.

CLIENT: Is that the technical term?

THERAPIST: It's not. I that that's how did you formed it. What did how did you say, an exchange or an interchange?

CLIENT: Yeah, well I'm trying to recall it, but it's just a sensation you know.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Like an emotional sensation. But I can recall the one with Edgar better. I mean Edgar and I are getting along better than ever now. But I don't feel the same thing. But it's like I feel sort of off center. [00:37:44]

THERAPIST: Hum.

CLIENT: It's not like butterflies in my stomach, it's like just feeling a little it's like some sort of non-physical proximity, but some more you know closeness. [00:38:03]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, it is, I see.

CLIENT: Or like maybe it's like two magnets when they're the same polarity. You put them together and like they're kind of a you know you can't really put them together, they're not stable.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: The closer they get the more it's kind of like that. That's what it feels like. [00:38:16]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Actually that's pretty good. (long pause)

THERAPIST: I was thinking how it's also like a huh a force that emerges from two different things. From two things that come together as opposed to it being something that's living inside one's self.

CLIENT: Hum. Yeah. [00:39:00]

THERAPIST: It's not quite yours.

CLIENT: Yeah. (long pause) Maybe with the trip when my cousin's like I should have opened it up to suggestions instead of proposing something that was very convenient for me. (long pause) [00:39:48]

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: You don't have anything to say?

THERAPIST: That's an interesting idea.

CLIENT: Oh. I thought you might be helpful with something.

THERAPIST: No. No, no.

CLIENT: Well (humming) [00:40:16]

THERAPIST: I was just thinking about maybe what I was if I was holding on to something was about the give and take of of these relationships that it's like it's of relationship's purity is kind of tricky. Hum. Decentering. (long pause) [00:41:00]

(continued pause) [00:41:09]

CLIENT: Hum. (long pause) [00:41:30]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah I guess I'm what my mind kind of goes back to how we ended last time and how you were asking me about what was my what was my stake in this. And afterwards I started to think a bit about how (pause) how I was thinking how like for some reason I went to well I went to some experience of your mother and how it and I guess somewhat of a of the child star metaphor. I kind of sometimes find myself thinking about with you. [00:42:19]

Like how the mother sees something of real talent and like interest in their child that they can deliver something.

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: But it's it's true, it's in the child but it's also something for the mother's benefit. And I was thinking about how -

CLIENT: Right. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: There's a lot of giving, but it's all about taking.

CLIENT: (chuckling)

THERAPIST: And I mean maybe that's not a fair characterization of your mother. Maybe you don't find that to be a fair characterization of your mother. But I just found that [00:42:54]

CLIENT: Isn't that what I asked having skin in the game though. I mean you're using you know my stories about my mother to talk about your involvement here. Or you know what you need.

THERAPIST: Well in fact you know I have certain skin in the game, and but but in that, does that mean that I'm just wanting to take something from you? Some sort of enjoyment or is this for you or is this for me? If I have skin in the game. (pause) Like I was thinking about how you brought up the money, or my enjoyment of like your wit or you know intellect. Was I going to be here solely for my own purposes of kind of like enjoyment? [00:43:50]

CLIENT: (laughing)

THERAPIST: Or financial gains?

CLIENT: How very thoughtful of you to say.

THERAPIST: I wonder is that what you were going after? Is that the kind of the thing that you were wondering about?

CLIENT: Whether you arrogated enjoyment from my experiences and adolescent problem? [00:44:09]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Not at all. No. No, I don't' think so. No. No I stand by what I said. I mean no one wants to be in a relationship where they're the one who needs something and the other person doesn't need anything. [00:44:24]

THERAPIST: Yeah, okay. Yeah that's yeah.

CLIENT: That's a good I appreciate the stark analogy though. It seems to work. (pause) But how did that relate to oh, so you were thinking that I was still thinking that you are trying to get something out of this. [00:45:04]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: See I'd feel more comfortable if -

THERAPIST: It had more to do with you wanting me to have skin in the game so that it didn't feel so imbalanced?

CLIENT: Like somewhat to acknowledge that you had you know, you needed me in some capacity.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Huh.

CLIENT: Right. And to -

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: I don't think it's it was related to take advantage, it's just not -

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It's not the kind of relationship that appeals to me. It's one way. [00:45:47]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I'm you know, if I were going to an oracle or something then you know I wouldn't I guess that's what I'd look for. But I don't go to oracles that often.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) I'm thinking it's on to something. (pause) I think especially as you've been telling me a bit about like having fun, finding the time valuable and enjoyable.

CLIENT: Right. [00:46:29]

THERAPIST: And like who wants to feel like it's a one way operation. Or is that saying too much? I don't want to -

CLIENT: I don't know, like I feel like there are times where people can help by doing nothing. And when people try to help other people, they can mess things up.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: It becomes if nothing else unnatural, but often times unproductive. (long pause) [00:47:26]

THERAPIST: Um-hum. (long pause) [00:48:00]

(continued long pause)

CLIENT: (snicker) You didn't see that one did you?

THERAPIST: This?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Uh-uh.

CLIENT: I think it's terrible.

THERAPIST: I'm flattered.

CLIENT: Well this you know, it's like that painting by somebody, it's like a man between a clock and his bed. You know, that one's really good but this one's like a woman near her bed at the window. It's not like she's looking out the window, it's just like she's she's not looking out the window. She's like depressed by the window. That was just I don't know. But otherwise it looks really nice, just kind of depressed at the window. [00:49:28]

THERAPIST: Hum.

CLIENT: Decent framing though.

THERAPIST: Well I will see you Friday.

CLIENT: All right. I will see you. [00:50:06]

END TRANSCRIPT